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OP
OP
xbhaskarx

xbhaskarx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,143
NorCal
Any study that points out Greece as an example where workers are better off should immediate warrant suspicion.

Where does it say Greece is an example where workers are better off?

The only mention of Greece is as one of two states where the a higher percentage of workers earn less than half of the median wage than in the US:

In the United States, nearly 15 percent of workers earn less than half of the median wage. That gives the U.S. a higher "low-income rate" than any other developed nation besides Greece and Spain.
 

Bernd Lauert

Banned
May 27, 2018
1,812
I've been in recruitment for 13 years. The shit employers say in the US is terrible. Their are employers who won't hire anyone who has ever been laid off or fired out there. There are employers who won't talk to candidates unless they have been in their last role for two years.

Enough is enough. We need to organize and change this. I just don't know how.

Employers have you by the balls. Employees have basically no leverage. The more I learn about the US job system the more I shake my head. I just learned the other day that for many people, their health insurance is tied to their job. Good luck quitting your job if your kid loses health insurance because of it. No wonder employers get away with shit like at will termination or no paid maternal leave.
 

Karasseram

Member
Jan 15, 2018
1,358
Won't be hyperbole when automation hits.

When automation hits full and no support system is in place for all the unemployed people it's already too late. The rich has on qualms seeing people laying on the street dying from hunger.

Employers have you by the balls. Employees have basically no leverage. The more I learn about the US job system the more I shake my head. I just learned the other day that for many people, their health insurance is tied to their job. Good luck quitting your job if your kid loses health insurance because of it. No wonder employers get away with shit like at will termination or no paid maternal leave.

Makes you wonder why the republican party is so against free healthcare for everyone.
 
OP
OP
xbhaskarx

xbhaskarx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,143
NorCal
Won't be hyperbole when automation hits.
PlayerPianoFirstEd.jpg
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,822
There was a thread not long ago asking how to point out the benefts of socialism (which isn't comunism).

#wellthereitis.gif
 

Rogote

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
I wonder if we'll see automation factories getting hit with sabotages etc. when it finally happens.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
I take it you've never watched Ben Shapiro. Guy is smart, but doesn't think the 1% has anything to do with wage/work equality.

If he is actually smart, he doesn't think it, but just says it.

If the median wage is much higher, you can be a greater % below the median wage and still be better off.

The answer is no. Taking into account living wage versus what people earn, almost all OECD member states are scoring higher than the US. Of course, the US has a way higher median wage than almost every country in the world. But the wage required to live also is.
 

tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
The most shocking of news. All part of the plan.

And yes, things will get much worse before they get better.

If Trump wins in 2020, or if another Trump is next in line, we are done imo.

By that point there should be a revolution I imagine. Once (enough) people are cornered and desperate. There's really only one way out of it if reaches that point. Hopefully it does not.
 

Deleted member 40133

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2018
6,095
When automation hits full and no support system is in place for all the unemployed people it's already too late. The rich has on qualms seeing people laying on the street dying from hunger.



Makes you wonder why the republican party is so against free healthcare for everyone.


Don't know if you play games at all...but Detroit: Become Human seems pretty prescient right about now
 

Deleted member 9986

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,248
Don't forget paid maternity leave:
17coontz2-map-popup.png
This one is quite funny. America is beyond basic criticism at this point since it shows that accelerationism can be beat by monthly iPhone contacts and cheap burger-soda combos. Bread and games nationwide in one of the richest nations on earth and certainly the most dominant one.

Got to give it to the US elite and centrists, they played their game like chess masters. All is left is to further develop small settlements and finalize the US as a hollow bottle to serve the interest of those that profit off labour and military might. The minions can then complain all they want in shit tier class in their shit tier jobs while the rich minority lives gated.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,017
Really only gives you 1/2 of the picture though, as the article notes:

Overall, regardless of how middle class fortunes are analyzed, the material standard of living in the U.S. is estimated to be better than in most Western European countries examined. But to the extent that governments in Western Europe are more likely to provide services to households that may not be captured in household income, such as the National Health Service in the UK, it is possible that differences in the quality of life between the U.S. and Western Europe are narrower.

Recent research by Charles I. Jones and Peter J. Klenow finds that economic well-being in their sample of Western European countries is similar to that of the U.S. when welfare estimates are broadened to include measures of leisure, mortality and inequality. For example, they estimate that while per capita income in France is only 67% of the level in the U.S., the broader measure of welfare for France is 92% of the level of welfare in the U.S.

Additionally, one of the reasons why median income is so much lower in western Europe is because they do not have such a large portion offset by the upper end of the spectrum.

FT_17.05.22_EuropeMiddleIncome.png
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,853
The next time someone unironically asks "do you really want the US to become like western Europe" show them this:

O7x2Xj7.png


original image:
https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/...4/14-inequality-1.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.png
It's almost as if we had a generation and a half of bi-partisan support for these kind of policies.

Everyone from the "Hippie" generation who gave a damn was either murdered by the government or had their mind destroyed by drug use and government-caused burnout.

Instead we got Bill Clinton and George W Bush! Congrats!
 

Shake Appeal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,883
Is the median American economically better off than the median worker in other countries? What about then 75th percentile, 90th percentile, etc? The answer in almost every case is yes.
The implicit point in this analysis, and so many others, is that traditional "economic" measures are failing the health and well-being of the American people; it doesn't matter if Americans make slightly more in raw dollar terms if their access to health care, higher education, and a stable retirement is broadly in jeopardy. A better question would be: "Is the median Western European safer, healthier, freer, living a more balanced lifestyle, and at less risk of illness (mental or otherwise), termination, bankruptcy, and preventable death than the median worker in the U.S.?" The answer in almost every case is yes.

Put another way, the prevailing (overwhelming conservative) cultural values of the United States is that we know the price of everything and the value of very little.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,853
The most shocking of news. All part of the plan.

And yes, things will get much worse before they get better.

If Trump wins in 2020, or if another Trump is next in line, we are done imo.

By that point there should be a revolution I imagine. Once (enough) people are cornered and desperate. There's really only one way out of it if reaches that point. Hopefully it does not.
I feel people underestimate how much their favored party contributes or just allows this problem to linger and grow.

Obama had a chance with the political capital to cause real change to this problem in 2009 and he punted. He prosecute no one and forced the American people to bail out the robber barons who stole from their parents and grandparents.

He had an opportunity to do something and he favored his donors, because these are the people who run this country. The house always wins in American Democracy.

Trump's policies will make this shit bottom out it is true, but this is a problem which required a lot of cooperation and opportunists like Bill Clinton to really embed itself in the American way.
 

tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
I feel people underestimate how much their favored party contributes or just allows this problem to linger and grow.

Obama had a chance with the political capital to cause real change to this problem in 2009 and he punted. He prosecute no one and forced the American people to bail out the robber barons who stole from their parents and grandparents.

He had an opportunity to do something and he favored his donors, because these are the people who run this country. The house always wins in American Democracy.

Trump's policies will make this shit bottom out it is true, but this is a problem which required a lot of cooperation and opportunists like Bill Clinton to really embed itself in the American way.
Sure, Obama can get fucked as well. To me this issue is pretty clear and you're either someone thats going to fix it and actually help the people, or you're going to be someone that does the opposite like both Obama and Trump.
 

Hoo-doo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,292
The Netherlands
I'd recommend to anyone that's relatively 'mobile', regardless of where they live, to at least consider what their life would look like if they moved to a different country.
And I don't mean just saying it, but to actually do a little research about it, like a thought experiment. How it would impact your family, whether you would be able to find work and provide. Hell, there's millions of vlogs out there on Youtube from American expats around the world detailing their reasons for leaving and their experiences after emigration.

I know emigration always sounds like a last resort which no-one actually pulls the trigger on, but at some point you got to consider the quality of life of your family and future generations. If you come to the conclusion that you're best off where you currently live, then great! But you could also potentially find comfort and quality of life in a different country that aligns with your ideals a lot more. I'm not pretending that emigration is easy in any way, shape or form. But it is possible.

Inb4 people yell 'i'm not a coward betraying my country' or the like.
 

GuyIncognito

Member
Nov 2, 2017
77
New York
The implicit point in this analysis, and so many others, is that traditional "economic" measures are failing the health and well-being of the American people; it doesn't matter if Americans make slightly more in raw dollar terms if their access to health care, higher education, and a stable retirement is broadly in jeopardy. A better question would be: "Is the median Western European safer, healthier, freer, living a more balanced lifestyle, and at less risk of illness (mental or otherwise), termination, bankruptcy, and preventable death than the median worker in the U.S.?" The answer in almost every case is yes.

Put another way, the prevailing (overwhelming conservative) cultural values of the United States is that we know the price of everything and the value of very little.

These are valid points. There are many structural issues in the U.S. that need to be addressed. This is not the point the study in the OP was making, which also narrowly focused on wages, and which I was trying to correct. Our healthcare and education systems in particular are deeply broken and need to be fixed.

This is a good report which attempts to look st broader measures of welfare and concludes hat Western Europe is rightly in line with the US on this broader measure despite lower income. The data used is a little dates though so I'd imagine the US would look slightly worse on current data given recent trajectory of things like healthcare costs plus recent issues like the opioid epidemic, etc

The basic point I'm making is that we have a cost and outcome problem, not a income/revenue problem.
 
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entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,130
I'd recommend to anyone that's relatively 'mobile', regardless of where they live, to at least consider what their life would look like if they moved to a different country.
And I don't mean just saying it, but to actually do a little research about it, like a thought experiment. How it would impact your family, whether you would be able to find work and provide. Hell, there's millions of vlogs out there on Youtube from American expats around the world detailing their reasons for leaving and their experiences after emigration.

I know emigration always sounds like a last resort which no-one actually pulls the trigger on, but at some point you got to consider the quality of life of your family and future generations. If you come to the conclusion that you're best off where you currently live, then great! But you could also potentially find comfort and quality of life in a different country that aligns with your ideals a lot more. I'm not pretending that emigration is easy in any way, shape or form. But it is possible.

Inb4 people yell 'i'm not a coward betraying my country' or the like.
It's not that easy and family and other support networks need to be rebuilt. I know a guy who is doing it, but he has a 5 year plan. It's not something you just get up in leave. Not to mention acquiring work visas and so on.
 

kinoki

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,705
I wonder if the American self-image will ever catch up with reality. Truly the land of the blind. Paid parental leave, vacation, income equality, health care, etc. The more I read the more scared I am. I admire the people who see what is happening and are doing something about it. It really is an uphill battle.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,388
I would imagine an outright recession into a depression would be our best option to fix this.

Good news: it's coming, Orange Con Man not included. Automation will probably be the accelerant we need to see the whole thing wobble off into the ditches.

Is there an explanation for exactly why productivity and compensation became decoupled around 1973, with the separation accelerating around 1983?

We started deregulating banks in the 70's, then came the neoliberal revolution of the 1980's. Blyth goes into detail in this via other talks, but the documentary Hypernormalisation goes into deep detail linking that period to everything going on today.
 
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LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,085
Arkansas, USA
This is why democracy is failing in the US. We shouldn't put up with Democrats that refuse to vote for policies that would improve the share of income going to labor. If they don't tax capital gains as regular income when they're back in power we need to get rowdy and put their feet to the fire. The survival of our country depends on it.
 

Nassudan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,349
But we need to prioritise tax breaks to the top 1% of society! The wealth will trickle down... any day now.
 

Conciliator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,131
eventually it's just gonna be Bezos with 98% of all the money in America and the rest of us will just share the leftovers. And if you try to question this system, they'll say "hey man, don't attack the job creator"
 

Nude_Tayne

Member
Jan 8, 2018
3,672
earth
Half this country goes to the polls every two years and begs their government to make life less affordable and less secure for them. This isn't just a matter of a corrupt government screwing over its people, it's half the country wanting it because they're literally and without hyperbole brainwashed. I like to be pragmatic and I have very little hope for this country turning things around.

We just gave over a trillion dollars to the already super rich, put billions more dollars into an already bloated military, and our government tells us we can't afford universal healthcare.....and half the country eats it up. Like, huh? This country is deeply sick.
 
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TrueSloth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,067
Its too bad lower class conservatives wont band with liberals on this subject. We can totally overturn the system if we worked together.
 

Astronut325

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,948
Los Angeles, CA
Is there an explanation for exactly why productivity and compensation became decoupled around 1973, with the separation accelerating around 1983?
Women started entering the workforce in huge numbers. This diluted the labor markets. And then add the trade deals and foreign markets opening up in the 70s and 80s. With such a large labor pool, there wasn't any need to pay people more.
 

Deleted member 8741

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,917
I'd recommend to anyone that's relatively 'mobile', regardless of where they live, to at least consider what their life would look like if they moved to a different country.
And I don't mean just saying it, but to actually do a little research about it, like a thought experiment. How it would impact your family, whether you would be able to find work and provide. Hell, there's millions of vlogs out there on Youtube from American expats around the world detailing their reasons for leaving and their experiences after emigration.

I know emigration always sounds like a last resort which no-one actually pulls the trigger on, but at some point you got to consider the quality of life of your family and future generations. If you come to the conclusion that you're best off where you currently live, then great! But you could also potentially find comfort and quality of life in a different country that aligns with your ideals a lot more. I'm not pretending that emigration is easy in any way, shape or form. But it is possible.

Inb4 people yell 'i'm not a coward betraying my country' or the like.

We live in the US. My wife's job pays fantastically and her job (Nurse Anesthetist) doesn't even exist in most other countries. I would honestly consider moving if another country offered had her job at the pay we're getting here (or equivalent).

Right now, it seems like our best option is to work and save up here and then leave with as much money saved as possible.
 

PrimeBeef

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,840
Last time I looked at wages in relationships to min wage, inflation, and production was about 5 years or so ago, and just min wage if it kept up with those two would be around $20/hr. At TruGreen in 2016, they implemented new GPS routing systems and corporate decided each branc needed to reduce their production staffs by 10-20% to make for improved efficiency. We still had the same 16k customers in our branch and were supposed to treat them all with 32 instead of 40 and our goals went from on average $1300 to $2200 a man per day. None of this was possible, and we all ended up with pay cuts due to missing performance goals. I averaged 75 hours a week that year. Big reason why I went back to school.
 

Nude_Tayne

Member
Jan 8, 2018
3,672
earth
Last time I looked at wages in relationships to min wage, inflation, and production was about 5 years or so ago, and just min wage if it kept up with those two would be around $20/hr. At TruGreen in 2016, they implemented new GPS routing systems and corporate decided each branc needed to reduce their production staffs by 10-20% to make for improved efficiency. We still had the same 16k customers in our branch and were supposed to treat them all with 32 instead of 40 and our goals went from on average $1300 to $2200 a man per day. None of this was possible, and we all ended up with pay cuts due to missing performance goals. I averaged 75 hours a week that year. Big reason why I went back to school.
Yep this kind of shit has been normalized. This was a much lower-level job, but I worked at a bank for several years (personal banker/call center agent) and through most of that time the bank was in dire financial straits due to some bad choices they'd made. People in other departments kept getting let go, and duties were slowly being shifted to us. We also had more and more sales-oriented goals pushed on us the last couple years, on top of everything else. It was a shit show. The bank finally got some huge capital injection and everything was peachy again. I'll let you guess if we ever saw a single raise or bonus throughout this entire time aside from the (almost)annual 20cent raise to barely keep up with inflation.
 

PrimeBeef

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,840
Yep this kind of shit has been normalized. This was a much lower-level job, but I worked at a bank for several years (personal banker/call center agent) and through most of that time the bank was in dire financial straits due to some bad choices they'd made. People in other departments kept getting let go, and duties were slowly being shifted to us. We also had more and more sales-oriented goals pushed on us the last couple years, on top of everything else. It was a shit show. The bank finally got some huge capital injection and everything was peachy again. I'll let you guess if we ever saw a single raise or bonus throughout this entire time aside from the (almost)annual 20cent raise to barely keep up with inflation.
They got rid of 75% of local salespeople and required production staff to make sales under the guise of people would rather buy from us than salespeople. No added compensation at the same time we were making half the commission as they were with no training. Oh and yeah, threats of being fired daily if we did not hit our goals.
 

Michilin

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,370
Damn shit is really getting way worse and fast.

The dream of the middle class in my country to move to the US, thinking they will have a way better life. I did a little research last year after my friend was able to relocate through his employer and realized that it would be a big mistake for me, besides the fact that the workers have really shitty rights the healthcare system is just bonkers.
 

GaimeGuy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,092
I recall reading around 5 years ago that If the mininum wage had kept pace with inflation and productivity gains, it would be 18 or 19 dollars. Purchasing parity would make it 23 or 24 dollars.