NY Times: For Bernie Sanders, Claims of Sexism in 2016 Campaign Hang Over 2020 Bid

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,213
At this point I'm wondering how much of it is astroturfing because so much of what's being described, in practice, sounds like reading from a script.
I don't think it's astroturfing, but, I do think this thread would end up 20 pages if it was Beto and will probably die at 5 as it is.

People have their minds made up about Bernie, they have since 2015. There isn't much that's going to change that, and Beto is the biggest threat to that.

Whatever vetting brings, vetting brings. I'm keeping an open mind, and I hope all so called "liberals" do when it comes time to vote. Sexism claims should always be taken seriously.
 

Powdered Egg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,450
Reading.Comprehension.
So, are you arguing that the claim(s) the article cites are false?

Because you'd have to be arguing that to say something so ridiculous.
So you just came in to steer the conversation away from the actual important issue?
ok, so nothing anyone is actually talking about then.
"BernieBros" were brought up in the thread before my post and that's what my post was addressing. Sexual harrassment definitely happened on Bernie's campaign and it's a good look that former staff are confronting him about it. I think his 2016 campaign got bigger than he imagined and being his first time on the big stage, didn't have the experience and foresight to have safeguards in place for sexual harrassment incidents. 2020 will be better.
Are you fucking serious?
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-started-birther-movement/

Maybe if your attacks were based on facts you'd find less resistance to what you're trying to sell.
Even though they didn't start it they still perpetuated the falsehood. A surrogate insinuated on CNN during an interview and Candidate Obama himself called them out for trying to smear and otherize him as a Kenyan/Muslim. Amma go back on topic, but that's all there on Google.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,597
Lets assume this was something completely outside of his control. Would he still be dead to you? I'm not saying he was (he should definitely address any alleged wrongdoing within his own campaign), I'm just curious where you sit on that.
It's his campaign. How could it be completely out of his control? He is responsible for his employees. Even if somebody else was making the relevant HR decisions, he hired the people who made the decisions.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,540
Sexual harassment is a problem anywhere, in any campaign. And if there is sexual harassment in a campaign from low tier volunteers to organizers, its up to the managers to deal with it, Sanders campaign is no exception, and so if people concerned want assurances that these types of things won't be tolerated in a campaign, interviewers should ask Sanders himself about issues of people in his campaign staff centers and what he plans to do about them. Further, any people accused of treating women with disrespect should be investigated and dealt with appropriately based on the individual case.

However,

this is the fourth article in less than 2 weeks from NYT trying to head off Sanders in the running with heresay about weak polling, "shedding supporters" and sexism(trying to revive the berniebro myth of his supporters, and then tying it to Sanders personal views on women i guess). while i hear almost crickets from the other candidates in regards to criticism from the media.

It reeks of intentional character assassination and a concerted effort. Especially after the open sexism against women Sanders supporters from Clinton supporters like Gloria steinem and Madeline Albright was never even picked up on.

I hope this post doesn't get me banned for calling out hypocrisy and what i feel is a concerted attempt by the media to slant views in a biased fashion, but it might.

All i can say is that these thoughts are my own, if this is my last post here because i got a MOD or a member mad at it, i want to thank everyone who tolerated my opinionated posts and i'm glad i was able to share them with a forum i respect

I get how you tried to be as nuanced as possible. The only way you possibly could've worded this better if you didn't portray as specifically a Bernie issue. At the end of the day real problems existing will and should be brought up even if the intent is to use them against anyone besides their favored candidate.

When running for the highest political level you have to take whatever could damage your rep. You adapt, become Teflon Don or lose outright.
 

Whompa

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,951
It's his campaign. How could it be completely out of his control? He is responsible for his employees. Even if somebody else was making the relevant HR decisions, he hired the people who made the decisions.
You don't think he'd have a team, or hiring manager, that manages new hires?
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,874
This is gonna be a big vetting factor for Dems going forward, I have a feeling something is gonna come up with Biden too
 

smellyjelly

Avenger
Aug 2, 2018
646
Lets assume this was something completely outside of his control. Would he still be dead to you? I'm not saying he was (he should definitely address any alleged wrongdoing within his own campaign), I'm just curious where you sit on that.
I ain't about to displace blame or assume that employees brought in to manage Sanders campaign are out of his control or responsibility. If you're so wholly disorganized that you cannot properly vet your hires, or guarantee a safe environment in which staffers are not to be sexually harassed or have reports of harassment go ignored, you do not deserve to have a campaign platform.
 

Byakuya769

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
1,630
No one would put me on a list of Bernie supporters, but I really wonder how differently other campaigns deal with sexual harassment. Stories I hear about the work environment of overworked, under sleeping and over drinking seems like the perfect auger for sexual harassment and superiors who are “too busy” to deal with it.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,312
Things already came up for Biden. He's just as untouchable...I guess
When was Biden ever accused of sexual harassment? There are a bunch of those handsy Uncle Joe memes but afaik none of those women have ever accused him of inappropriate touching a la Al Franken. Not that it'd surprise me if they did though.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,597
Probably a campaign manager or lead in that department. These things are fairly corporate.
So who hired them?

It's not turtles all the way down, buddy. Eventually Bernie Sanders hired the people who hired the people who hired the people, etc., etc., who did the sexual harassment. Management culture starts from the top, and top managers are responsible for the actions of their employees, even if they are not direct employees and weren't directly hired by them. Bernie is the head of the Bernie Sanders campaign. Everything it does ultimately reflects on him.
 

Tomohawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
739
Bernie's campaign had massive appeal to white male voters, it's not surprising to me at all that many groups of women, and minorities still don't feel 100% on board with Sanders. It's also not surprising that the campaign operation would reflect some of those dynamics.
His approval is in the dumps with white males, most of his support comes from hispanics last time I checked.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,026
Even though they didn't start it they still perpetuated the falsehood. A surrogate insinuated on CNN during an interview and Candidate Obama himself called them out for trying to smear and otherize him as a Kenyan/Muslim. Amma go back on topic, but that's all there on Google.
Mind directing me to this on google, cause I'm not actually finding it. Or are you referring to this?

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/sep/20/hillary-clinton-and-birther-movement-still-no-ther/
After we published our fact-check, the Trump campaign referred us to an interviewPatti Solis Doyle, Clinton’s 2008 campaign manager, gave to CNN the day of Trump’s press conference. Doyle recalled a volunteer coordinator in Iowa who forwarded an email that promoted "the conspiracy."

The Trump campaign pointed to this as an admission in campaign statements. But Doyle later clarified she was referring to a volunteer who was fired for forwarding an email about Obama’s religion, not birthplace. (PolitiFact wrote about the incident here.)
Cause that unpaid volunteer was immediately fired. And it was about religion, not him not being born in the United States anyway. I'm sure you're gonna keep bringing it up like it's a fact in the future, though.
 

mario_O

Member
Nov 15, 2017
1,352
Looking from outside and knowing absolutely anything from US politics, Bernie sounds like the best option to me. Now, dot get me wrong, vetting is extremely important for candidates, but they are facing a guy who brags about all his wrongdoings, and a public that applauds all his words. If you keep digging and throwing mud at each other, Trump is going to win again.
Same here. Not from the US and I think a progressive politician is what it's needed right now. And not just in the US -the whole world is in grave danger. The rise of the extreme-right, like the fascist Bolsonaro in Brazil, the social unrest that neoliberal policies have brought upon us, like in France with the massive protests of the Yellow Vests, it can only be fought with progressive policies.
It's gonna be a tough battle though. The rich hate progressives more than anything in the world, and fascism is a plan 'b' they're willing to accept. We need Bernie, we need Corbyn, and we need a left government in Israel, or we are all doomed.
 
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Tomohawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
739
At this point I'm wondering how much of it is astroturfing because so much of what's being described, in practice, sounds like reading from a script.
Lets not get conspiratorial, i feel like Bernie would the last person to astroturf. Though like all candidates he probably does. This is more easily explained by people getting overly attached to a candidate, which has been happening forever.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,976
Lets not get conspiratorial, i feel like Bernie would the last person to astroturf. Though like all candidates he probably does. This is more easily explained by people getting overly attached to a candidate, which has been happening forever.
We're well past the point where we should assume everyone online is sincere in their positions. But it's a very nebulous area of interest. That's why I raised it as a question rather than a statement. "I wonder how much of it is astroturfing" isn't a statement as to how much of it is, indeed, astroturfing. It's a fact of life that astroturfing happens. I would be interested in studies on this phenomena beyond what we already know. And it's not even always on the candidates themselves; well-meaning supporters or even foreign adversaries are known to do things like this. I think it's a fact of life we're by and large still trying to wrap our heads around. And it gives me hope that maybe some of the dumbest things I see aren't sincere, which is, admittedly, a very selfish perspective on the ordeal.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
6,689
Lets not get conspiratorial, i feel like Bernie would the last person to astroturf. Though like all candidates he probably does. This is more easily explained by people getting overly attached to a candidate, which has been happening forever.
Don't be so sure, Bernie isn't as unique a politician as his reputation implies. He has a history of encouraging and boosting the signal of conspiracy theories against his political opponents for his own gain.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
6,689
Things already came up for Biden. He's just as untouchable...I guess



Probably a campaign manager or lead in that department. These things are fairly corporate.
Biden's only untouchable now because no-one has gone after him, that will eventually change. He has been putting his foot into his mouth lately, as well.
 

Aaron

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,152
Sanders (and Biden) staying out of the primary would be the best thing for it, really. They’re the only two people I actively don’t want to run in the Democratic primary.
 

Whompa

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,951
I ain't about to displace blame or assume that employees brought in to manage Sanders campaign are out of his control or responsibility. If you're so wholly disorganized that you cannot properly vet your hires or guarantee a safe environment in which staffers are not to be sexually harassed or have reports of harassment go ignored, you do not deserve to have a campaign platform.
So who hired them?

It's not turtles all the way down, buddy. Eventually Bernie Sanders hired the people who hired the people who hired the people, etc., etc., who did the sexual harassment. Management culture starts from the top, and top managers are responsible for the actions of their employees, even if they are not direct employees and weren't directly hired by them. Bernie is the head of the Bernie Sanders campaign. Everything it does ultimately reflects on him.
So the captain sinks with the ship, regardless. Interesting theory. Yeah I don't particularly think they should step down for not being able to personally (as in Bernie sits in a room and does this himself) vet every single employee in their campaign. Interns or anything. That should be up to the managers of the departments and they should be let go.

Responsibility to save face though, sure.

When was Biden ever accused of sexual harassment? There are a bunch of those handsy Uncle Joe memes but afaik none of those women have ever accused him of inappropriate touching a la Al Franken. Not that it'd surprise me if they did though.
Yeah, I was only speaking of the actual allegation that was fake news garbage. But even that unfortunately seems like enough for some and will change people's perception.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,026
So the captain sinks with the ship, regardless. Interesting theory. Yeah I don't particularly think they should step down for not being able to personally vet every single employee in their campaign. Interns or anything.

Responsibility to save face though, sure.
I don't see anyone saying he should step down for this, but rather that it's his responsibility, and it's a negative against his management choices(Which are rather important as President), not to mention the actual events are fucked up. On the scale of things it isn't nearly as bad as, say, an Al Franken.

Speaking of Al Franken, it's kinda funny to me that he'd probably be one of the primary front-runners if he wasn't revealed to have such a shitty past. Guess that's how it happens.
 

Whompa

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,951
I don't see anyone saying he should step down for this, but rather that it's his responsibility, and it's a negative against his management choices(Which are rather important as President). On the scale of things it isn't nearly as bad as, say, an Al Franken.

Speaking of Al Franken, it's kinda funny to me that he'd probably be one of the primary front-runners if he wasn't revealed to have such a shitty past. Guess that's how it happens.
From the sound of it, I thought SmellyJelly wanted to personally murder him lol.

Also yeahhhhhh man Franken was gaining so much traction before all that came out.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,317
I hope this post doesn't get me banned for calling out hypocrisy and what i feel is a concerted attempt by the media to slant views in a biased fashion, but it might.

All i can say is that these thoughts are my own, if this is my last post here because i got a MOD or a member mad at it, i want to thank everyone who tolerated my opinionated posts and i'm glad i was able to share them with a forum i respect
Interesting that it’s OK to go on and on about some supposed conspiracy against Beto O’Rourke, but the same standard doesn’t apply to other politicians. Previous thread would’ve been grave yards.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
6,689
So the captain sinks with the ship, regardless. Interesting theory. Yeah I don't particularly think they should step down for not being able to personally (as in Bernie sits in a room and does this himself) vet every single employee in their campaign. Interns or anything. That should be up to the managers of the departments and they should be let go.

Responsibility to save face though, sure.
Bernie needn't do this himself, he's there to vet the highest level supervisors/managers who do the same down the ladder. He's running a top down organisation, not a flat one. That's leadership.

He's always been bad at having high level employees be terrible people, like Weaver and Devine. Jeff Weaver's been with Bernie since the 90's and quickly ascended to his chief of staff and other high level positions.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,026
Interesting that it’s OK to go on and on about some supposed conspiracy against Beto O’Rourke, but the same standard doesn’t apply to other politicians. Previous thread would’ve been grave yards.
You don't see the difference between your thread on the minorest of minor on-paper-but-not-in-spirit breaches of a pledge and a thread about systemic sexual harassment in someones campaign?

Read(And I mean ACTUALLY READ) what you're saying it should be OK to dismiss as conspiracy-grade attacks on Bernie:

In February 2016, Giulianna Di Lauro, a Latino outreach strategist for Senator Bernie Sanders’s presidential operation, complained to her supervisor that she had been harassed by a campaign surrogate whom she drove to events ahead of the Democratic primary in Nevada.

She said the surrogate told her she had “beautiful curly hair” and asked if he could touch it, Ms. Di Lauro said in an interview. Thinking he would just touch a strand, she consented. But she said that he ran his hand through her hair in a “sexual way” and continued to grab, touch and “push my boundaries” for the rest of the day.

“I just wanted to be done with it so badly,” she said.

When she reported the incident to Bill Velazquez, a manager on the Latino outreach team, he told her, “I bet you would have liked it if he were younger,” according to her account and another woman who witnessed the exchange. Then he laughed.
“I did experience sexual harassment during the campaign, and there was no one who would or could help,” said Samantha Davis, the former director of operations in Texas and New York, who also worked on the campaign’s advance team. She said that her supervisor marginalized her after she declined an invitation to his hotel room.
Women who had access to salary records were taken aback to learn that some female staff members made thousands of dollars less than their male counterparts.
Do you really not see how saying this is an attempt to bring down Bernie is petty-ass bullshit?
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,213
Well let's ignore that the previous Beto thread was about him taking oil money, not liking labels, and what have you, but not sexism.. But let's also ignore that previous Beto threads were like 10 times as long.

If you see somebody posting in bad faith, report them, regardless of their preferred candidates.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,317
Do you really not see how saying this is an attempt to bring down Bernie is petty-ass bullshit?
I see what I said in my post, which is that it’s seemingly ok to float the idea that a conspiracy may be afoot when criticizing one potential candidate, but not another. I’m not comparing the issues - they’re obviously greater and less by several orders of magnitude.

But as posted, vetting of candidates is fair game. No?

Bernie’s campaign needs to deal with its sexism problem.

Beto needs to not sign pledges and then break them.

This thread is not about the latter and I’m not trying to make it he, but I’m saying: There isn’t a conspiracy behind either. Both are legitimate issues. But you had multiple people posting that there was obviously a fix in on Beto with no proof and no action from moderation. It’s hypocritical. I can’t make it any simpler for you.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,597
So the captain sinks with the ship, regardless. Interesting theory. Yeah I don't particularly think they should step down for not being able to personally (as in Bernie sits in a room and does this himself) vet every single employee in their campaign. Interns or anything. That should be up to the managers of the departments and they should be let go.

Responsibility to save face though, sure.
This is a pretty disingenuous post. I didn't suggest that Bernie should "step down." Nor did I suggest he needs to personally vet every employee -- I explicitly said that's not the expectation. I said he's ultimately responsible for the managers he has, the decisions they make, and for the management culture they create.

"I can't be responsible for the day-to-day actions of the middle managers and low-level employees" is the argument bank executives used to explain why they shouldn't be held culpable for the mortgage fraud that led to the financial crisis. How does Bernie feel about that position, again?
 

smellyjelly

Avenger
Aug 2, 2018
646
From the sound of it, I thought SmellyJelly wanted to personally murder him lol.

Also yeahhhhhh man Franken was gaining so much traction before all that came out.
I didn't say anything close to that or express a sentiment like that. Sexual harassment is a chronic and toxic issue that has to have proper open channels for victims to report. It's a red flag, to me, when I read of multiple victims being ignored within the campaign and feeling there was no proper outlet for them to report these incidents.

A candidate in which facilitates an environment and workplace in which multiple staffers are sexually harassed and ignored may not be the best candidate.
You then asked me to entertain a hypothetical in which Sanders had no control over his campaign staff:

I ain't about to displace blame or assume that employees brought in to manage Sanders campaign are out of his control or responsibility. If you're so wholly disorganized that you cannot properly vet your hires, or guarantee a safe environment in which staffers are not to be sexually harassed or have reports of harassment go ignored, you do not deserve to have a campaign platform.
 
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Mod post

JayC3

bork bork
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
1,702
Official Staff Communication
Do not presume that other users are astroturfing. And this thread is not about Beto, so get back on topic.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,026
Well let's ignore that the previous Beto thread was about him taking oil money. But let's also ignore that previuos Beto threads were like 10 times as long.

If you see somebody posting in bad faith, report them, regardless of their preferred candidates.
The previous Beto thread was about personal donations from barely any individuals making up a pinprick, rounding error of his total campaign budget.

I see what I said in my post, which is that it’s seemingly ok to float the idea that a conspiracy may be afoot when criticizing one potential candidate, but not another. I’m not comparing the issues - they’re obviously greater and less by several orders of magnitude.

But as posted, vetting of candidates is fair game. No?

Bernie’s campaign needs to deal with its sexism problem.

Beto needs to not sign pledges and then break them.

This thread is not about the latter and I’m not trying to make it he, but I’m saying: There isn’t a conspiracy behind either. Both are legitimate issues. But you had multiple people posting that there was obviously a fix in on Beto with no proof and no action from moderation. It’s hypocritical. I can’t make it any simpler for you.
You're drawing an equivalency between the two things, when there isn't any is the problem. One is dealing with an insignificant amount of money to Beto's campaign and thus has no real ramifications in terms of policy, the other is a campaign where women were getting harassed left and right and the men were being paid more than the women.

On the one hand, How are we supposed to believe that Sanders actually supports equal pay for equal work when that's not even the case in his own campaign? On the other hand you've got such a tiny tiny amount of money from oil company employees, not oil companies themselves, in Beto's campaign that it beggars belief that it would have any effect on what he does on a policy level.

Again, did you actually read the content of my quotes? Cause that's what the thread's about.

Edit: Well, fuck, modpost.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,317
User warned: acknowledging and ignoring the mod post
You're drawing an equivalency between the two things, when there isn't any is the problem.
You’re really going to have to work on your reading comprehension. I literally just said they’re obviously not the same level of issue.

If you have some sort of personal threshold that needs to be crossed to criticize a political figure, you’re within in your right to. I don’t subscribe to anything like that though.

I’ve seen the mod post, so this is my last post on this, but yeah, consistency in policy enforcement would be nice, guys.

Compliance is “acknowledging and ignoring”? Lmao
 
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kambaybolongo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,335
No one would put me on a list of Bernie supporters, but I really wonder how differently other campaigns deal with sexual harassment. Stories I hear about the work environment of overworked, under sleeping and over drinking seems like the perfect auger for sexual harassment and superiors who are “too busy” to deal with it.
not well!
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/26/us/politics/hillary-clinton-chose-to-shield-a-top-adviser-accused-of-harassment-in-2008.html
 

Tomohawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
739
We're well past the point where we should assume everyone online is sincere in their positions. That's why I raised it as a question rather than a statement. "I wonder how much of it is astroturfing" isn't a statement as to how much of it is; It's a fact of life that it happens. I would be interested in studies on this phenomena beyond what we already know.
Just like the poster who brought up the media making a concerted attack, I dont think this lends to healthy discussion, because you begin to assume there are dishonest actors around every corner. Of course we can acknowledge that astroturfing exists and media has occasionaly been used to run hit pieces, but i believe its better to discuss the content than whether people are on the level. But maybe thats too market place of ideasy.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,213
The previous Beto thread was about personal donations from barely any individuals making up a pinprick, rounding error of his total campaign budget.


You're drawing an equivalency between the two things, when there isn't any is the problem. One is dealing with an insignificant amount of money to Beto's campaign and thus has no real ramifications in terms of policy, the other is a campaign where women were getting harassed left and right and the men were being paid more than the women.

On the one hand, How are we supposed to believe that Sanders actually supports equal pay for equal work when that's not even the case in his own campaign? On the other hand you've got such a tiny tiny amount of money from oil company employees, not oil companies themselves, in Beto's campaign that it beggars belief that it would have any effect on what he does on a policy level.

Again, did you actually read the content of my quotes? Cause that's what the thread's about.

Edit: Well, fuck, modpost.
I think we're actually on the same page? But yeah, back on topic. I feel like Bernie needs to make a statement about this. There are a lot of cogs in campaign runs.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,976
Just like the poster who brought up the media making a concerted attack, I dont think this lends to healthy discussion, because you begin to assume there are dishonest actors around every corner. Of course we can acknowledge that astroturfing exists and media has occasionaly been used to run hit pieces, but i believe its better to discuss the content than whether people are on the level. But maybe thats too market place of ideasy.
The following point isn't related to astroturfing, so I feel comfortable bringing it up in light of the modpost as it's not a violation, but I'm already familiar with the fact that there are already a lot of dishonest actors surrounding other topics so it's an area of thought I find myself traversing quite frequently, unfortunately. It's really frustating once you start to notice it. I don't think anyone in this thread is guilty of it, however. And any further discussion would just be delving deeper into an unecessary rabbit hole. So we can put an end to this tangent, I think. A discussion for another day and another thread. I'm surprised and glad this tangent didn't devolve into open fistfights and was an actual discussion. :)
 

Cas

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,326
Sexual harassment is a problem anywhere, in any campaign. And if there is sexual harassment in a campaign from low tier volunteers to organizers, its up to the managers to deal with it, Sanders campaign is no exception, and so if people concerned want assurances that these types of things won't be tolerated in a campaign, interviewers should ask Sanders himself about issues of people in his campaign staff centers and what he plans to do about them. Further, any people accused of treating women with disrespect should be investigated and dealt with appropriately based on the individual case.

However,

this is the fourth article in less than 2 weeks from NYT trying to head off Sanders in the running with heresay about weak polling, "shedding supporters" and sexism(trying to revive the berniebro myth of his supporters, and then tying it to Sanders personal views on women i guess). while i hear almost crickets from the other candidates in regards to criticism from the media.

It reeks of intentional character assassination and a concerted effort. Especially after the open sexism against women Sanders supporters from Clinton supporters like Gloria steinem and Madeline Albright was never even picked up on.

I hope this post doesn't get me banned for calling out hypocrisy and what i feel is a concerted attempt by the media to slant views in a biased fashion, but it might.

All i can say is that these thoughts are my own, if this is my last post here because i got a MOD or a member mad at it, i want to thank everyone who tolerated my opinionated posts and i'm glad i was able to share them with a forum i respect
No need for conspiracies about sexism from the bernie camp. I remember quite clearly when one of his surrogates said having a vagina uterus didn't qualify you to be president. Hmm.