NYT: Denmark, With an Eye on Muslims, Requires New Citizens to Shake Hands

moblin

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Oct 25, 2017
1,966
Москва
NYT:



COPENHAGEN — Denmark will require anyone who takes Danish citizenship to shake hands at the naturalization ceremony, under a law passed on Thursday, which lawmakers say is aimed at Muslims who refuse on religious grounds to touch members of the opposite sex.
The law has prompted strong reactions from some of the mayors who must conduct such ceremonies, and who are upset that they will become the faces and fists of a policy they call awkward, “purely symbolic” and irrelevant to an applicant’s qualifications. They say the Danish Parliament, which approved the measure, has artificially elevated a social custom to a national value.
The handshake requirement, which includes a provision that the wearing of gloves is unacceptable, is the latest in a series of Danish anti-immigrant measures that critics say are symbolically charged but serve little purpose. The government recently announced plans to isolate certain migrants it wants to deport on a small, out-of-the-way island, and Parliament approved funding for the project on Thursday.
This summer, the Parliament prohibited the wearing of face veils in public, although researchers say only about 200 Muslim women follow the practice in Denmark. In 2015, the country sharply cut social programs for asylum seekers, and a law passed in 2016 allows the authorities to confiscate migrants’ valuables to help cover the cost of their stays in Denmark.
In Aabenraa, Mayor Andresen said he regretted Danes’ negativity about immigration, noting that the country had successfully integrated refugees from the former Yugoslavia, and had built close ties to Germany, a former enemy.
“I’d be sad to see us portrayed as a xenophobic country and a xenophobic people. Because we absolutely are not,” he said. “And we need the work force.”
Interesting that lawmakers in Denmark are being very direct about citing Muslim immigration as the reason this law is supposedly needed.
 

Loanshark

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,233
Sounds good, I was never for cultural relativism. Practices rooted in sexism should not be accepted in these cases.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,707
Honestly, this doesn't go far enough.
They should ask them to recite selected parts of the Bible, eat a ham sandwich, draw an Impressionist painting of Muhammad, and top it off with an acrobatic triple somersault, while juggling three burning Korans.
 

Potterson

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,706
Religion is cancer. Every religion. I'm all for banning every single holy symbol and everything connected with religion from public life.

Sorry, but if young Muslims are taught to - for example - not shake hands with a woman etc, should they be allowed to nurture such traditions in EU countries...? Some of these "religious laws" are so medieval-like... Especially when it comes to women rights.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,315
“I’d be sad to see us portrayed as a xenophobic country and a xenophobic people. Because we absolutely are not,” he said. “And we need the work force.”

The receipts say otherwise in this case.
 

DUFFMCWALIN

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,179
Portland, OR
This will be an interesting thread.

Fuck Denmark for forcing this on people, but fuck the sexist practice that made people think this was needed.

Fuck all of this.
 
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Deleted member 1589

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Oct 25, 2017
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Religion is cancer. Every religion. I'm all for banning every single holy symbol and everything connected with religion from public life.

Sorry, but if young Muslims are taught to - for example - not shake hands with a woman etc, should they be allowed to nurture such traditions in EU countries...? Some of these "religious laws" are so medieval-like... Especially when it comes to women rights.
Gotta love these sort of posts in every type of these threads.
 

ethranes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
491
Edinburgh
Religion is cancer. Every religion. I'm all for banning every single holy symbol and everything connected with religion from public life.

Sorry, but if young Muslims are taught to - for example - not shake hands with a woman etc, should they be allowed to nurture such traditions in EU countries...? Some of these "religious laws" are so medieval-like... Especially when it comes to women rights.
Have a little faith
 

Ivan2Nguyen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
496
Denmark seems to have several bits of it's constitution that talk about religion in it's land. The most pertinent one seems to be this one:
  • §70 grants freedom of religion by ensuring civil and political rights can not be revoked due to race or religious beliefs. It further states race and religious beliefs can not be used to be exempt from civil duties.
This law seems to fall under that area. In a country that is 75% registered with the Church of Denmark as of 2017, it doesn't seem out of line with it's current population to make laws that help ensure that immigrants do not become an inclusive sub group. Denmark isn't America. This would be against our values in America.

I hope that this brings some new information to the discussion. I am aware that I might get a ban for not knee jerk responding that Denmark is bad for not fully respecting all religions. It seems like they do. Up to a point. Their believes do not reflect my own.
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 29, 2017
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And what are they gonna do about the Danish citizens who are also dismissive and abusive towards women?

Oh right: Absolutely nothing because God forbid a citizenry self reflects.
 

Blade24070

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,565
Religion is cancer. Every religion. I'm all for banning every single holy symbol and everything connected with religion from public life.

Sorry, but if young Muslims are taught to - for example - not shake hands with a woman etc, should they be allowed to nurture such traditions in EU countries...? Some of these "religious laws" are so medieval-like... Especially when it comes to women rights.
Agreed. All religion is trash.
 

GameShrink

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,680
An iffy policy to fix a vile practice, but I'm not sure what the better solution is.

If it's a battle of importance between preserving religious practice and combating sexism, I guess I'm in favor of the latter.
 
Mar 10, 2018
6,627
Sounds good, I was never for cultural relativism. Practices rooted in sexism should not be accepted in these cases.
Religion is cancer. Every religion. I'm all for banning every single holy symbol and everything connected with religion from public life.

Sorry, but if young Muslims are taught to - for example - not shake hands with a woman etc, should they be allowed to nurture such traditions in EU countries...? Some of these "religious laws" are so medieval-like... Especially when it comes to women rights.
Jesus Christ
 
Dec 5, 2018
708
Bethesda, North Wales
So, I’m white as fuck, agnostic and have a generalised anxiety disorder that means I don’t want to touch people I dont know ever, I refuse to shake hands and it’s gotten me more than a few odd looks in the past.

So, would I be denied citizenship based on that alone? Or simply due to my pale ass pale skin would my desire not to shake hands be overlooked?
 
May 30, 2018
1,244
Pointless Law.

All that will happen is that conservative Muslims will shake hands at the ceremony, and continue to not shake the hands of opposite genders afterwards

LOL if you think this law is meant for integration/assimilation. It's literally just to troll Muslims
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,714
This in no way is a policy designed to combat sexism. Refusing someone citizenship is not how you untrain them from being taught a sexist belief system their entire lives.
 

ahoyhoy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,315
This in no way is a policy designed to combat sexism. Refusing someone citizenship is not how you untrain them from being taught a sexist belief system their entire lives.
It is how you prevent them from entering your society though, if the fear is that their sexist behavior will negatively impact it.
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
20,438
It's ultimately pointless because I'm sure it won't change their minds whatsoever after they do the ceremony, they will still hold those views. If you do have some die hard that won't go through with it then rethink your beliefs however stupid the Denmark law is.
 

Deleted member 32374

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Nov 10, 2017
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Religion is cancer. Every religion. I'm all for banning every single holy symbol and everything connected with religion from public life.

Sorry, but if young Muslims are taught to - for example - not shake hands with a woman etc, should they be allowed to nurture such traditions in EU countries...? Some of these "religious laws" are so medieval-like... Especially when it comes to women rights.

So this is the 'new atheism' I heard about in the Canadian preschool lawsuit thread.

Nice to meet you. Please relax.
 

Instro

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Oct 25, 2017
11,043
While the religious practice is abhorrent, I'm not sure this really solves anything.
 

Deleted member 1589

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Beginning to understand how we have a "But Sam Harris is only a mild racist" contingent
Aye.

I'm a muslim, although I'm pretty much moderate when it comes to my beliefs. The only time I dont shake a woman's hand is when it's a muslim that I know would see it differently, so I dont force it on them.

There was a thread much like this before, and I supported the decision to deny Swiss citizenship to a muslim couple but the more I thought about it, the more that it's clear it's Islamophobia.

Yeah, a lot of muslims have very conservative beliefs but is that a reason enough to deny citizenship? For me I know muslims who left this country to stay in UK for instance and most of their children end up more moderate than their parents, or just stop practising the faith completely. I'm not sure why now it's suddenly a thing to uphold this sort of laws other than the fear of muslim extremism. The fact that a lot of people here seem to only focus on this admittedly sexist cultural and religion based problem as a good reason to deny citizenship is disappointing.
 

Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,720
And what are they gonna do about the Danish citizens who are also dismissive and abusive towards women?

Oh right: Absolutely nothing because God forbid a citizenry self reflects.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

https://eige.europa.eu/gender-based...-campaign-targets-diversity-domestic-violence
http://evaw-global-database.unwomen.org/en/countries/europe/denmark

Since 2002, Denmark has adopted four National Action Plans to stop violence against women, and these have adapted to evolving patterns of violence. The Bryd tavsheden (Break the silence) campaign in 2010 specifically targeted ethnic minority women to help them to escape from violence by their partners. It was carried out by the ministry for gender equality in co-operation with LOKK, the national association of women’s shelters.
In March 2013 Denmark launched the White Ribbon Campaign, which is a worldwide initiative to end men’s violence against women. White Ribbon is an independent network for men, engaging other men to pledge to the following three things:
 

Deleted member 48897

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Even most conservative/fundamentalist Muslims probably wouldn't think, say, "They put bacon in this sandwich without telling us, we have defiled ourselves in the eyes of God" so much as "Wow, these fuckers have no respect for our way of life, or even our humanity". This is only gonna serve the radicalizers
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,042
This in no way is a policy designed to combat sexism. Refusing someone citizenship is not how you untrain them from being taught a sexist belief system their entire lives.
This.

I like how (a few?) people in this thread are already ignoring how this clearly targets a specific group of religious followers and are instead ragging on the religion. Yeah, religion sucks but this is not how you teach people to open up to the rest of the world. This is how you scare them away by telling them they don't belong.
 

Deleted member 1589

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This,

I like how (a few?) people in this thread are already ignoring how this clearly targets a specific group of religious followers and are instead ragging on the religion. Yeah, religion sucks but this is not how you teach people to open up to the rest of the world. This is how you scare them away by telling them they don't belong.
Precisely.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,714
This,

I like how (a few?) people in this thread are already ignoring how this clearly targets a specific group of religious followers and are instead ragging on the religion. Yeah, religion sucks but this is not how you teach people to open up to the rest of the world. This is how you scare them away by telling them they don't belong.
Yeah, I understand this is a very hard problem to solve, but where do we draw the line and stop blaming people as if their parents and environment were up to them? How can they be taught to participate in a more equal society if the ones they try to join all turn them away?
 

mnz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,265
This.

I like how (a few?) people in this thread are already ignoring how this clearly targets a specific group of religious followers and are instead ragging on the religion. Yeah, religion sucks but this is not how you teach people to open up to the rest of the world. This is how you scare them away by telling them they don't belong.
Well yeah, that's the goal
 

Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,720
Even most conservative/fundamentalist Muslims probably wouldn't think, say, "They put bacon in this sandwich without telling us, we have defiled ourselves in the eyes of God" so much as "Wow, these fuckers have no respect for our way of life, or even our humanity". This is only gonna serve the radicalizers
Sexism is a way of life? Well I guess it technically is......