• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,935
Oh people here will love this news.

Anyway.. shame. But a lot of companies and artists have been doing this for decades.
 

beins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
324
Yeah this has been known for many years. It is why Ireland has so many tech company headquarters but none of the actual offices that are designing and producing products.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,267
How much tax should the US collect on something Apple sells from its locations in another country?

Sorry, I don't mean to make it seem like the US is the only place where these taxes matter. But yes, the US shouldn't collect taxes on sales in other countries. That does seem silly, although I do see someone here has mentioned that US citizens who live outside of the US still have to pay taxes. That's all kinds of unfair, in my opinion. If that is to remain the case, they should also do the same for big-earner corporations operating in and out the US to some degree.

How does that work? Americans living abroad get double taxed?

To quote the IRS website:
If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.

edit: I'm corrected by posters below. They are probably far more knowledged about this.
 

the_bromo_tachi

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,366
Japan
How does that work? Americans living abroad get double taxed?
If you worked a certain amount of days and if you pay taxes to the country you're living in, you usually don't have to pay taxes. However, you must file your tax form every year.

Edit: this might be better to quote:
To claim the foreign earned income exclusion, the foreign housing exclusion, or the foreign housing deduction, you must have foreign earned income, your tax home must be in a foreign country, and you must be one of the following:

  • A U.S. citizen who is a bona fide resident of a foreign country or countries for an uninterrupted period that includes an entire tax year,
  • A U.S. resident alien who is a citizen or national of a country with which the United States has an income tax treaty in effect and who is a bona fide resident of a foreign country or countries for an uninterrupted period that includes an entire tax year, or
  • A U.S. citizen or a U.S. resident alien who is physically present in a foreign country or countries for at least 330 full days during any period of 12 consecutive months.
 
Last edited:

IAmAnAgnostic

Member
Nov 2, 2017
202
Disgusting. I'm a firm believer in laws made against this type of trash behavior. The billionaire owners win massively, everyone else loses.
 

Monogatari

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,166
General stereotypes want you to believe that it is illegal immigrants that are scumbags and leeches for not paying tax or whatever.

But the real culprits are at the very top.
 

numble

Member
Oct 25, 2017
814
Ok? I feel like that is Japan's problem.

Why would we base our taxation on them selling switches to themselves? It makes no sense, Nintendo Japan can simply say "oh we sell the switch to Nintendo USA for $298 we make $1 profit on each one" they can effectively make Nintendo USA profit/loss sheet look like whatever they want. That is pretty much my understanding of what apple is doing to the EU, saying Ireland with it conviently low tax rates is the distribution center for all of Europe, shifting the profits to wherever cost them the least and then buying stuff from themselves to get some back. The money is parked in Irish banks but is actually apple/Tim's/shareholder money.

Note: I'm not an expert in multi-national taxes obviously. Just putting my opinion out there and trying to learn some tricks :p
Nintendo makes more money in the US than in Japan.
Under your idea, it is Japan's benefit to not tax foreign profits, not a problem. If it sells a Switch in the US without being subject to US tax or Japan tax, while Microsoft needs to pay 35% US tax to sell an Xbox, Nintendo can basically undercut Microsoft because it is not facing any taxes. To try to make it an even playing field, you should subject both to the same taxes in the same market.

To get away from Nintendo setting whatever prices it wants, the international rule basically is that the prices need to be equivalent to what an unrelated party will pay for it. So Nintendo Japan can only sell it to Nintendo USA at a price that a third party will pay for it. So they sell to Nintendo USA the same price that Best Buy pays for it, and Nintendo USA has the same profit margin as Best Buy.

The "issue" is that you can often find a third party handling a function that has a limited profit margin. Any "solution" to the issue needs to be agreed between all countries, or you still end up with a similar end state. The EU required Ireland to tax Apple and the US is upset (the Obama administration issued a white paper protesting it) because it reduces US tax revenue. China could make a case that there should be more tax paid in China because it is Apple's second largest market but also the market with the most workers dedicated to creating value for Apple (and under Communist theory, more value should be attributed to labor, instead of capital).
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,061
Kinda crazy but there is no such thing as not enough money and when it comes down to it I'm sure if most of us could protect or save a lot more of our cash we'd probably do the same. Temptation is a real bitch. That said I dislike that so many companies along with the rich and powerful being able to pull such tactics, it does feel scummy.
 

Futureman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,403
240 billion dollars.

Theoretically, 240 billion dollars could build a futuristic city powered by renewable energy sources that would house 5 million people. Cities that currently house 5 million people? Washington DC, Berlin, Boston, Sydney, Barcelona. Apple could just build a fucking iCity to replace any one of those. Its fucking insane.

Money and wealth stopped making sense decades ago. It's like the concept of a "high score" just completely rewrote the purpose of currency.

It's crazy that the money is out there to essentially fix all of the world's problems that can be fixed with money (infrastructure, health care, education funding, etc) but it's all tied up in these corporations who's only goal is to make more money. I realize this money wouldn't exist in the first place if it wasn't for these companies buying into the capitalist dream but it's still heartbreaking in a way.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Well, in Germany they paid 0.2% of their aggregate turnover in 2015. source in german. In Norther Irland it was even less like 0.005%. That´s how the scandal happened a few years ago when it went public that Apple avoids EU taxes through Norther Irland. You can google it all. It´s no secret.

0.2% and .005% of what exactly? What money is being considered when coming up with those percentages and why?
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
Apple really has no excuse. Particularly annoying is their attempts to appeal and pander to progressives which being a far far leader in corporate tax dodging vs the other corporations which are traditional targets. Like i just feel like even if they did it it should have been a bit or similar to everyone else not several magnitudes greater than most.
 

marc^o^

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,205
Paris, France
So they all do it, proportionnaly to what they make. It seems to be legal so far, though now it's exposed and morally unbearable, I expect the law to change soon.
 

Kinthalis

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
481
So i guess if i dont pay my share of taxes i wont have to worry about jail time like these corporations, right guys?
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,579
Racoon City
One day I feel we'll get a President or someone running for President whose solution is going to be "no corporate tax! That way they can pour money into jobs jobs jobs, instead of hiding it overseas!"
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,263
We didn't any leaked documents to know this, is literally public information. Unless im getting confused, Tim Cook has spoken about this and said they are bringing the money into the US when the US gets a more "fair" tax rate (whatever that means).
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
So they all do it, proportionnaly to what they make. It seems to be legal so far, though now it's exposed and morally unbearable, I expect the law to change soon.
I wish I could be as positive about this issue as you. I don't expect anything to change any time soon, especially not with the current government
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Apple really has no excuse. Particularly annoying is their attempts to appeal and pander to progressives which being a far far leader in corporate tax dodging vs the other corporations which are traditional targets. Like i just feel like even if they did it it should have been a bit or similar to everyone else not several magnitudes greater than most.

You should read Apple's response and analysis done by other outlets.
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
You should read Apple's response and analysis done by other outlets.

Confused by this post? Apple took measures to reduce taxes paid, a practice which many of their target demographics despise. Regardless of the legal standing of it and the laws they followed, the intention was to reduce their overall taxes. I have no problem with them doing so within the bounds of the law, my issue is that they know those they court would be unhappy with the practices and methods of reductions of taxes paid.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Confused by this post? Apple took measures to reduce taxes paid, a practice which many of their target demographics despise. Regardless of the legal standing of it and the laws they followed, the intention was to reduce their overall taxes. I have no problem with them doing so within the bounds of the law, my issue is that they know those they court would be unhappy with the practices and methods of reductions of taxes paid.

Did you read? It doesn't sound like you read.

This topic is plagued by emotional thinking and misunderstandings. I wish people's first inclination were to understand what's happening rather than rely on oversimplified and cartoonish narratives about greedy companies and scheming lawyers.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
Needs to be a law against off shore bank accounts and shell corporations. They should pay their taxes like anyone else.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,775
This is money made overseas. How should that be handled?
The US can already taxes money you hold overseas, I guess this is the part where world leaders go to the WTO to iron out agreements between countries to avoid this type of issues.
Netherland is fully to blame and they should face consequences for basically opening a tax haven at the center of the EU.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,471
Richmond, VA
Well I didn't just mean legality, for anyone who considers this unethical they may still support said company by buying said products, so said company doesn't face any consequences from this action. Also not accusing anyone here of anything.

Lol. They all do it. What product would be left to buy? Find me a phone that isn't an Apple, Google, or Microsoft product, for example.
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
Did you read? It doesn't sound like you read.

This topic is plagued by emotional thinking and misunderstandings. I wish people's first inclination were to understand what's happening rather than rely on oversimplified and cartoonish narratives about greedy companies and scheming lawyers.

Yes, again what it being legal and good practice within the current system has no bearing on the fact that the worse "offender" or "exploiter" of this system while actively courting a group which has demonstrated is against this type of practice.
To be clear it would be like a company who pollutes up to the limits of the law allowed by the EPA while knowingly courting environmentalist by not disclosing their higher than average carbon footprint. Again the reasoning and practice within the system is sound. Please explain to me what I am suppose to take away from this other than "its legal"?
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Yes, again what it being legal and good practice within the current system has no bearing on the fact that the worse "offender" or "exploiter" of this system while actively courting a group which has demonstrated is against this type of practice.
To be clear it would be like a company who pollutes up to the limits of the law allowed by the EPA while knowingly courting environmentalist by not disclosing their higher than average carbon footprint. Again the reasoning and practice within the system is sound. Please explain to me what I am suppose to take away from this other than "its legal"?

You still didn't read.

What should Apple do to not put these people off? Be specific. Don't say "the right thing."

The point is that there is no way of handling these tax situations that couldn't be spun into fiction. It's too complicated and how it's handled is strange and unfair in many cases.
 

Deleted member 6949

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,786
They get children to build the products, they sell the products at an enormous profit, they get crazy tax breaks, then hide the money. How are Apple products still a status symbol?
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
This is money made overseas. How should that be handled?

This is the same tax argument for starting businesses in Delaware due to tax reasons. I remember the argument to establish a headquarters of various online shopping distributors in Delaware to avoid the sales tax of the states their customers were buying in. Fortunately the foresight into online shopping made it so it became the location the buyer was in rather than where it was bought from. Point being there are means to legally and fairly determine where and how taxes should be paid even internationally. The question isn't about if they are following the law, the issue is they are for means to reduce taxes. (As they should be as a corporation) while courting individuals who they know would be against the practice. I have no issue with a corporation being a corporation, its designed to do one thing. Make money. The issue is the laws and practices surround it and the transparency expected.
 

Bakercat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,154
'merica
Open secret here in the United States. I would complain, but having a reasonable and intelligent debate on economics and taxation here will get you no where. I don't feel like screaming at people and making a scene to make a stupid point for stupid people today.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
This is the same tax argument for starting businesses in Delaware due to tax reasons. I remember the argument to establish a headquarters of various online shopping distributors in Delaware to avoid the sales tax of the states their customers were buying in. Fortunately the foresight into online shopping made it so it became the location the buyer was in rather than where it was bought from. Point being there are means to legally and fairly determine where and how taxes should be paid even internationally. The question isn't about if they are following the law, the issue is they are for means to reduce taxes. (As they should be as a corporation) while courting individuals who they know would be against the practice. I have no issue with a corporation being a corporation, its designed to do one thing. Make money. The issue is the laws and practices surround it and the transparency expected.

As above, you aren't understanding the issue (or even the question I asked here).

Apple has a facility with many employees in Ireland and has for decades. How should money it makes there be taxed? You say there is a fair way to do it. Well, is the current way fair? Is what the people you keep citing want fair?
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
You still didn't read.

What should Apple do to not put these people off? Be specific. Don't say "the right thing."

The point is that there is no way of handling these tax situations that couldn't be spun into fiction. It's too complicated and how it's handled is strange and unfair in many cases.

I don't care if Apple does "the right thing" or not. The point I'm making is that there should be transparency as a part of this. The taxing of a public company which trades stock should NOT be a secret someone has to find out. Period. That's the solution. Detailed tax reports should be a requirement of any publicly traded US stock.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
I don't care if Apple does "the right thing" or not. The point I'm making is that there should be transparency as a part of this. The taxing of a public company which trades stock should NOT be a secret someone has to find out. Period. That's the solution. Detailed tax reports should be a requirement of any publicly traded US stock.

What is being hidden? Don't cite headlines. What financial information is being obscured?
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
What is being hidden? Don't cite headlines. What financial information is being obscured?

Sure, As part of annual financial statements available from any publicly traded stock, a detail asset breakdown of overseas assets & liabilities should also be available and to which companies. This increases transparency. Currently a company would not need to publicly disclose that large amounts of assets and capital currently sit somewhere which could be identified as a proxy between nations. Essentially a change and advocacy in the law would be for transparency of detailed foreign assets on their current annual statements as a requirement. This is information they already submit to the IRS and I am also not advocating for a full tax disclosure either.
 

okay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
589
We didn't any leaked documents to know this, is literally public information. Unless im getting confused, Tim Cook has spoken about this and said they are bringing the money into the US when the US gets a more "fair" tax rate (whatever that means).
He probably wants a repatriation holiday

Bush gave them one and it did fuck all for the Americans who are being robbed through tax avoidances like this.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Sure, As part of annual financial statements available from any publicly traded stock, a detail asset breakdown of overseas assets & liabilities should also be available and to which companies. This increases transparency. Currently a company would not need to publicly disclose that large amounts of assets and capital currently sit somewhere which could be identified as a proxy between nations. Essentially a change and advocacy in the law would be for transparency of detailed foreign assets on their current annual statements as a requirement. This is information they already submit to the IRS and I am also not advocating for a full tax disclosure either.

What information you mentioned isn't being disclosed?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,731
Pushing for greater transparency would be a good take away from this. Fixing some of the more obvious loop holes as well.

But I'll fight anyone who tries to fuck with Ireland's corporate Tax rate.

Local sales tax is probably the way to go for Europe anyway.
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
What information you mentioned isn't being disclosed?

I'm not sure what your question is. Where can you publicly see a list of every publicly trade corporations foreign payments and financial statements? For instance I want to see if Apple took half a billion dollar loans from Ukranian nationals where would I go to see this? Of if they own multiple properties in Russia where do I see that? You would get that in investor statements, IRS statements, but no detailed annual reports of all foreign interests and payments. They already have the information because they submit it to the IRS annually. Why not just make the foreign assets and payments a requirements for publicly traded companies. They have to SEC 10-ks annually through the U.S Securities and exchange commission. You can review every single one of them now online. Right now they can just list taxes as a general line item as taxes paid. All I'm saying is have a law that as part of these reports they include all foreign interests and boom end of debate. What's the problem with having transparency?