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Gestahl

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
391
And that doesn't end with your party. There were no characters I cared about or was interested in, they were all just walking and talking trivia about Deadfire. I wouldn't be able to name a single person from the game who is not a companion or some god of the setting, whose names are beaten into you at every opportunity. Obsidian cared more about carefully examining boring political climate of a mockup island nations and pirates, than writing a good story with memorable characters.

There's the one ocd goldpact knight and that's pretty much it. Neketaka is the most boring main city I've had the displeasure of experiencing in an rpg like this. Everyone is some combination of unimportant peasant, stiff bureaucrat, and/or shit head pirate/colonialist. It doesn't help that it feels like a lot of characters just feel like vessels for getting or completing quests, like the two duelists from the rival families that fade from existence once you meet the family leaders.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,203
I did not like Deadfire because it is needlessly complex in areas where it doesn't need to be (health system, way too many skills, etc). The UI also bothers me a lot. It is way too busy. Lastly, I did not care for the setting.

Honestly wish they would have just copied Icewind Dale 2's combat wholesale and gone with a more traditional setting. It's a shame because PoE2 is easily the best looking CRPG ever.


Not sure what you mean about a complex health system, unless you're just talking about the limited ways to heal. As far as "too many skills" is concerned, I'm not sure that it's really that there are too many in general, but that there are too many that are much less useful than another option at the same level. It made the trees look more bloated than necessary.

I have genuinely no idea what's even to dislike about a "pirate setting", anyway.
It's basically standard fantasy with a bit more flavor on top.

It's the new zombies, or didn't you know? I was ambivalent on the setting. It didn't really bother me much, but sometimes it seemed like it was trying too hard to jump on what's currently in fashion in other video games or media...five years ago.
 

KorrZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
797
Canada
Between POE2, DOS2 and Kingmaker I found POE2 to be the least interesting of the bunch by far and I was a backer on Fig.

I much prefer the traditional fantasy setting to the setting they utilized here. I found myself completely uninterested in the setting which is pretty much a death blow for a CRPG.

I also thought the companion characters were a complete waste. Especially after how the developer diaries hyped up their new "relationship system" and then in reality they functioned the same as every other CRPG companion out there except with basically non-existent companion quests.

Pathfinder even for all of it's bugs is a far more interesting and compelling take on the traditional Baldur's Gate style CRPG and Divinity: OS2 feels like what CRPGs would have evolved into had they never faded away, it feels like a true modern take on the formula.
 

KelticNight

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,835
As people have already said not only is PoE2 from a niche genre it was also a direct sequel with a setting that wasn't great for everyone.

Poor game was fighting an uphill battle, sadly.
 

depward

Member
Oct 29, 2017
254
I was convinced from the hype to buy PoE1. Fact is: I simply do not like gaming on a PC or laptop. So that's one sale for PoE and not even a consideration for PoE2. That being said, I am looking forward to the release of PoE2 on Nintendo Switch and will likely give that a go when released.
 
Oct 31, 2017
8,466
It's the new zombies, or didn't you know? I was ambivalent on the setting. It didn't really bother me much, but sometimes it seemed like it was trying too hard to jump on what's currently in fashion in other video games or media...five years ago.
Seems like a rather weak argument against a setting that is actually underused in gaming compared to most of the alternatives.
Even less if we are considering just titles of appreciable quality.

I was convinced from the hype to buy PoE1. Fact is: I simply do not like gaming on a PC or laptop. So that's one sale for PoE and not even a consideration for PoE2. That being said, I am looking forward to the release of PoE2 on Nintendo Switch and will likely give that a go when released.
This on the other hand sounds like a terribly specific personal issue on your side rather than an objective flaw worth discussing when the point is the merits of this title and how it performed on a large scale.
 

ArnoldJRimmer

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
1,322
Seems like a rather weak argument against a setting that is actually underused in gaming compared to most of the alternatives.
Even less if we are considering just titles of appreciable quality.


This on the other hand sounds like a terribly specific personal issue on your side rather than an objective flaw worth discussing when the point is the merits of this title and how it performed on a large scale.

Your getting in the way of his obvious platform wars bs man! Mellow out.
 

Valdega

Banned
Sep 7, 2018
1,609
It's possible I'm wrong about the importance of the setting, but I don't find any of these points persuasive.

1. You agree that D:OS's setting wasn't noteworthy. So why think that its traditional elements were a major selling point for the game?

2. The fact that recent Fallouts have appealed to more than just RPG players does not change the fact that a large number of RPG players have bought and continue to buy Fallout game notwithstanding the absence of elves.

3. Final Fantasy and Persona are JRPGs, sure, but you said "the majority of RPG players only want traditional, Euro-centric fantasy settings," not "the majority of WRPG players." Even limiting ourselves to western RPGs, it seems to me that the original Mass Effect was a hit with many hardcore CRPG fans despite a sci-fi setting.

4. Your explanations for Shadowrun's success and Might & Magic X's failure only support my point: having a traditional, Tolkien-esque setting is not ordinarily a decisive factor in a game's sales.

For all that, it's clear that some people reacted badly to Deadfire's setting (or what they took to be Deadfire's setting). And I don't really have an explanation for why Kingmaker has apparently sold much better, though I think there are likelier explanations than the setting. I just know that if I were trying to pitch (or deciding to green-light) CRPG projects in the wake of Deadfire, "stick to the Forgotten Realms" is not one of the lessons I would take.

I guess I should have been more specific. After all, the term "RPG" has become so ubiquitous that it encompasses a wide variety of games that have very little in common. To elaborate: the majority of CRPG players have no interest (or actively dislike) pirate settings and much prefer traditional, Euro-centric fantasy settings. The vast majority of people who play Mass Effect, modern Fallout, Persona, Final Fantasy, etc, have no interest in isometric RtWP or turn-based CRPGs so their tastes are irrelevant to this point (though they likely have little to no interest in pirate settings either).

You are seriously underestimating the importance of setting in RPGs. The setting of D:OS wasn't noteworthy because it was exactly what players expected and wanted. Most CRPG players expect traditional fantasy settings and when they don't get that, they lose interest. Again, one simply has to look at the massive popularity of Forgotten Realms compared to the more exotic D&D settings to see proof of this.
 
Oct 31, 2017
8,466
Oh, cool! I didn't know they make another one. I will definitely watch this one too.
Well, not exactly "another one" since this will be a fairly different title from the past ones.
Druidstone is supposed to be isometric and turn based, as the early screenshots point.
Still, it's their core ability to design excellent levels and puzzles that make me still quite confident in the quality of the final result.
Not to mention the real-time combat was the single aspect of the two Legend of Grimrock I was the least in love with, so it could be even better.

Who knows, maybe one day we'll get a Might & Magic XI from Ubisoft too...

Adam-Brody1.gif
 

funroll-loops

Member
Oct 29, 2017
116
I bought Pillars 1 and Tyrrany, but I was pretty disappointed by the stories in both. Pillars was supposed to be some fantasy Victorian thing about souls, and Tyrrany was supposedly about being an evil fantasy lawyer, but they both turned into pretty standard RPG stories about being the chosen one really fast and I couldn't trust that Pillars 2 would be any different. At least DOS2 had cool battles and reactive quests, and Baldurs Gate had a ridiculous scale and pre-MMOified loot and character systems going going for it.
 

Valdega

Banned
Sep 7, 2018
1,609
At least DOS2 had cool battles and reactive quests, and Baldurs Gate had a ridiculous scale and pre-MMOified loot and character systems going going for it.

PoE 1& 2 have great loot. None of it is procedural and every unique is genuinely unique, with its own set of hand-crafted attributes. Many of them are conditional too, making them much more interesting. I'd go as far as to say that PoE2 has the best loot of any RPG ever. PoE's ruleset and mechanics are also very elegant and thoughtful. Instead of trying to awkwardly translate pen and paper systems to a fundamentally different medium, they designed their systems specifically for a CRPG and that makes them far better than anything you'll find in a D&D CRPG.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,953
Houston
PoE 1& 2 have great loot. None of it is procedural and every unique is genuinely unique, with its own set of hand-crafted attributes. Many of them are conditional too, making them much more interesting. I'd go as far as to say that PoE2 has the best loot of any RPG ever. PoE's ruleset and mechanics are also very elegant and thoughtful. Instead of trying to awkwardly translate pen and paper systems to a fundamentally different medium, they designed their systems specifically for a CRPG and that makes them far better than anything you'll find in a D&D CRPG.
One of the uniques was broken for how much it could do because of the rules
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
This isn't true at all. The first Pillars did very well and co existed with the first divinity just fine. Pillars 2 failed because if everything everyone has already said in this thread

Bad Marketing
Direct sequel to a game I doubt too many people beat
sea/pirate theme was off putting

I bought the game day one and still haven't played it because I havent beaten the dlc of the first one yet.
When did Pirates became an off putting theme?

Also both Divinity and Pillars are called 2, I don't think many think either of them is not a direct sequel. I for one though Divinity 2 was a direct sequel, and I had a mild interest in the game before release.

Obsidian definitely did something wrong, I just don't think these two points cover it.
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
When did Pirates became an off putting theme?

Also both Divinity and Pillars are called 2, I don't think many think either of them is not a direct sequel. I for one though Divinity 2 was a direct sequel, and I had a mild interest in the game before release.

Obsidian definitely did something wrong, I just don't think these two points cover it.
This is only my take on it so obviously it might not have anything to do with the bigger picture.

There is nothing wrong with pirates per se, but after finishing POE1 and its dlc, I never thought to myself: I need a ship and a pirate crew. Once I saw the reveal of POE2 I was honestly scratching my head. Somehow being the legendary watcher of Caed Nua did not mesh well with being a pirate. And obviously you dont necessarily need to be a pirate, but it still felt pretty weird mix in ny opinion.
 

GLHFGodbless

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,285
This is only my take on it so obviously it might not have anything to do with the bigger picture.

There is nothing wrong with pirates per se, but after finishing POE1 and its dlc, I never thought to myself: I need a ship and a pirate crew. Once I saw the reveal of POE2 I was honestly scratching my head. Somehow being the legendary watcher of Caed Nua did not mesh well with being a pirate. And obviously you dont necessarily need to be a pirate, but it still felt pretty weird mix in ny opinion.

This is what I meant by off putting. It would of been fine if this wasn't a direct sequel and you were just some new guy/gal, but to make the character from the first game was a bit weird .And I'm not saying Pillars 2 is a bad game or anything because of it, it's clearly reviewed very well, but I can see how it could be a little weird to people who beat the first game, and unfortunately thats gonna be the only people buying this game, which automatically means it's gonna sell far less than the first, and I doubt sales will help with that being the case.

It sucks but it is what it is, I did my part. :p I'll get around to playing it eventually...
 

ArnoldJRimmer

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
1,322
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't consider calling this game a pirate game.

But so many people, apparently ones who haven't played it walked away with that impression, that maybe that was a failure of the marketing (what little there was?).
 

demondance

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,808
For all that, it's clear that some people reacted badly to Deadfire's setting (or what they took to be Deadfire's setting). And I don't really have an explanation for why Kingmaker has apparently sold much better, though I think there are likelier explanations than the setting. I just know that if I were trying to pitch (or deciding to green-light) CRPG projects in the wake of Deadfire, "stick to the Forgotten Realms" is not one of the lessons I would take.

I think Kingmaker was just word of mouth over the idea of getting another game actually adapting PnP rules. Most of the talk around that game doesn't even touch on the fact that it's also a kingdom management game. The excitement was over Pathfinder rules.

PoE's ruleset is absolutely a weakness. They've improved it greatly -- PoE 3.0 with the expansions is a really strong game overall -- but it doesn't have a particularly good reputation due to the version most people played.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,470
New York
It really comes down to buzz and awareness more than any specific aspect of Deadfire itself as a game. Most people were flat out not aware the game even existed or released and those who were aware simply weren't that hyped as there wasn't much buzz around the game in most discussions. It's exactly the same issue that Tyranny had. No one even knew that game existed.

Larian did it right. Swen is a phenomenal front man/hype man and their campaign, updates and beta got people really excited and helped to generate a ton of word of mouth about the game. Obsidian's backer updates and Beta just didn't do that in comparison. And overall PoE didn't light a fire under people after it released, it had some real flaws as all games do to it but unlike DOS, which was quite flawed itself, discussion about PoE was often mired by those complaints and never moved past them where as DOS was able to skirt by unscathed in comparison due to the novelty of its combat system, which most people really loved.

Kingmaker is a fine game, but the fact that it's the first real cRPG Pathfinder game is a big factor in its success. Just like PoE got a lot of hype for being the first real modern incarnation of the IE games. But with Deadfire it was just a sequel, direct or not, so it didn't really have anything unique to it to really get people talking about it.
 

RoninChaos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,334
I've been wanting to play both of these (POE and D:OS). I don't want to ruin the other one though, so I'm curious which is worth playing first. Divinity has co-op right?
 

Shadout

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,804
I'd skip D:OS1 and just go to D:OS2 - it is so much better than the first imo. They both have co-op.
Both POE1/2 and D:OS2 are very much worth playing imo, can't see any reason to pick one before the other. Maybe if you prefer turn-based or Real-time with pause you can choose based on that.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
The cool thing about Deadfire was that most of the characters are Black/Polynesian/Mixed race etc or inspired by the cultures of such people.

The bad side is these characters were clearly used as cover for the games exploration of the slave trade and coloniaism with white slave traders simply being replaced with the races of the people they colonised in real life....
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
I've been wanting to play both of these (POE and D:OS). I don't want to ruin the other one though, so I'm curious which is worth playing first. Divinity has co-op right?

If you want to go for the "best" one then as Shadout pointed out, you want to go for Divinity: OS2. It's the most polished of them as well as being easy to get into from a new players standpoint because you do not need to have played D:OS1 to know it or grasp it's story, unlike POE2 that's a direct sequel to POE1.

Not to mention, imo, it's the better game in terms of story/characters and gameplay, and yes it has full fledged co op for up to three other players (for 4 players total). There is a mod that increases the mp up to 10 players too though, but by default it's 4.
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
I was convinced from the hype to buy PoE1. Fact is: I simply do not like gaming on a PC or laptop. So that's one sale for PoE and not even a consideration for PoE2. That being said, I am looking forward to the release of PoE2 on Nintendo Switch and will likely give that a go when released.

I don't believe that this is coming out for Switch. Obsidian has been deathly silent about it since it was announced and we are closely reaching the end of the year without a release date. I felt very skeptical that it was coming out even BEFORE Obsidian was purchased by Microsoft.
 

Dancrane212

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,962
Generally, how well have the isometric ex-C RPGs like PoE1, DoS series and Tides sold on PS and Xbox families of consoles?

No specifics but both Wasteland 2 and the first Original Sin were described as having sold well, or something of that sort, when the respective studio heads were asked about it on the Axe of the Blood God podcast a while back.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,470
New York
I don't believe that this is coming out for Switch. Obsidian has been deathly silent about it since it was announced and we are closely reaching the end of the year without a release date. I felt very skeptical that it was coming out even BEFORE Obsidian was purchased by Microsoft.
Nothing about the acquisition indicates these prior commitments are null and void. Unless there are some unknown technical issues we don't know about there's no reason the console version of Deadfire won't release, including Switch.

We should hopefully hear soon enough as the final expansion should be on schedule to release sometime in the next month and they'll be looking to have the console version be a complete edition including all three.
 

smisk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,999
Yeah it's weird how little hype there's been around it compared to the first game. Maybe the old school RPG market is saturated? Dos2 seems to be consistently selling well though. It's in the top 10 right now and not even on sale.
 

ArnoldJRimmer

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
1,322
Yeah something is a miss, and I can't put my finger on it. It's not an issue with the genre, I don't think. Otherwise DoS and Pathfinder Kingmaker would also be doing poorly, IMHO, but they're not. DOS2 is definitely doing better than Pillars 2, and Even Pathfinder seems to be doing better too even with it's reported bugginess! (I have to get that game, but waiting on another patch or two).

I don't know what happened, this game deserves so much more.

Speaking of bugs, this game has been solid pretty much from the start, but turn-based combat is really not fully baked yet. I plan on playing a lot more with it, but I'm stopping until it's out of beta.
 

RedFury

Member
Oct 27, 2017
639
That's bad? I thought that's good for these types of games. Having thought that I also expected that any kind of dev or investor would foresee that outcome and adjust the budget for the game accordingly. I'm mean it's pretty much stated in the tweet.

I'm curious what were the numbers for Part 1?
 

No Depth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,266
I was a backer and still need to carve out time to play PoE2.

The optional dungeon Endless Paths of Od Nua in PoE1 contained some of the my favorite CRPG crawling in a game such as this. Fantastic sense of exploration, layouts, mix of fighting, puzzling, and occasional conversing. It was a fun mystery to suss out over 15 floors, each offering something unique or surprising as you move further into the depths. I quite enjoyed the core adventure too, though can understand the problems some may have had, but there was a LOT to enjoy in the periphery of Pillars 1 that any CRPG fan should find enjoyable.
 

Pilgrimzero

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,129
I started playing it and got confused as to my goal. Having a sail around reminded me a lot of Wind Waker. Which isn't a good thing.
 

Blizzcut

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
747
Just saw this thread for the first time and I'm quite literally shocked, I'm gonna double dip when it comes to the Xbox One later this year for sure but wow that's devastating to hear that it'll didn't sell gangbusters. I feel that this niche genre that I love is shrinking with each year... :(
 

ArnoldJRimmer

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
1,322
Just saw this thread for the first time and I'm quite literally shocked, I'm gonna double dip when it comes to the Xbox One later this year for sure but wow that's devastating to hear that it'll didn't sell gangbusters. I feel that this niche genre that I love is shrinking with each year... :(

Thats the thing... it isnt. There been several super successful games in the genre. Its why its weird for this one, arguably one of the best ones, to have fared so poorly.

Breaks my heart.
 

Troublematic

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
441
Not really surprising from a sequel to a niche old school title. I think it's the same thing as DLC selling poorly in comparison to main game, only a fraction of the people who bought the first game transition to the next one, and those who haven't yet played the first probably aren't even considering the second.

As much as I have love for the old school cRPG genre, I still haven't gotten around to actually playing through any of the new titles, and the latest one I did play was Siege of Dragonspear. That's likely due to BG being nostalgia comfort food and doing the expansion in the middle was easier than to jump in a totally new game that might take 100+ hours to complete. Since there's a glut of great games anyways, these titles have dropped to the "play some day" category for me, especially since they keep getting more updates and content, and getting a package deal later on just makes more sense because I wouldn't play them right now anyways, the commitment is just too big.

Overall there's just very little reason to play them at launch and few people will actually do that, which obviously has implications for profitability. I'm glad at least Larian is doing well enough to keep at it, but I don't think this market segment is going to support more than that. It's pretty much up to charity of those feeling nostalgic for cRPGs to maintain their development. I think modernizing the genre in some aspects may make it more palatable for a larger audience, and I think D:OS did that in some aspects. The problem with that is increasing dev costs and uncertainty of whether it'll pay for itself. That said, I think the days of making 2000's looking "modern" cRPGs are pretty much done. You have to do better than that to sell copies.
 
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Tya

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,656
That's bad? I thought that's good for these types of games. Having thought that I also expected that any kind of dev or investor would foresee that outcome and adjust the budget for the game accordingly. I'm mean it's pretty much stated in the tweet.

I'm curious what were the numbers for Part 1?

Original Sin 2 had sold a million copies a month and a half after release back in November 2017. The game is still selling very well, being in the top 10 in sales on Steam as we speak with a 35% off sale ($29 for me).