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Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
Those posts are linked for a reason. The context is there for anyone to see. For my sake, please tell me what is your main point. And I'm asking this sincerely. If I'm wrong, I'll own it.

The context is what you stripped from selectively quoted posts. Are you pretending that those one or two separate sentence fragments is my entire argument? That might be your problem right there.

Here's the thing.

If I even say something that remotely sounds like what you think I'm saying, you'll ignore anything that disuqalifies it from meaning that. I know this because it's happened multiple times by now. It might look like a duck to you but it quacks like a moose. There is a serious disconnect here and I don't know if trying to explain myself AGAIN is going to make a lick of difference.

I don't think criticisn of the democratic party is wrong. HOWEVER. It isn't always politicslly advantageous. I do not want the left to shout about the same person the right is while the right is trying to compromise that position and the left has absolutely no plan or ability to improve it. I am looking at the political scenario and assessing what would result in the best outcome for the democratic party as a whole. I have not, nor have i ever, said that all criticism from the left is wrong. If you think that what I have explained right now is equivent to saying that and is some kind of "silencing tactic" you need to reassess the angle you are looking at life. I said the same things about Hillary Clinton during the 2016 election. You might br right, but what you aren't is helpful. I want to focus on positive activism, not destructive hot takes. If that's some kind of silencing tactic to you, so be it, but to me it's a healthier and more productive outlook on the situation. It would be different if there was actually a way you could do this that wouldn't bolster active attempts to compromise the seat, then I'd be all, "Fuck yeah, ______ ______ for speaker! Nancy Pelosi did her best but now there's someone better! Fuck yeah, democratic progrees!". But that isn't the situation.
And please ignore the typos. As I have explained earlier, I'm typing this all out on my phone.
 
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Quixzlizx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,591
They got trump tax cuts, got super conservative judges on the Supreme Court, and on the state level they passed oppressive voter suppression laws and gerrymandered the shit out of districts.

And yeah, people want to get rid of those who aren't left enough. That's the whole point of primaries.
If I know one thing about the establishment Republicans who existed before the tea party, it's that they were against tax cuts for the rich, conservatives on the Supreme Court, voter suppression, and gerrymandering.

Wait, what?
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
I don't think criticisn of the democratic party is wrong. HOWEVER. It isn't always politicslly advantageous. I do not want the left to shout about the same person the right is while the right is trying to compromise that position and the left has absolutely no plan or ability to improve it. I am looking at the political scenario and assessing what would result in the best outcome for the democratic party as a whole. I have not, nor have i ever, said that all criticism from the left is wrong. If you think that what I have explained right now is equivent to saying that and is some kind of "silencing tactic" you need to reassess the angle you are looking at life.

The thing is, the right will try to compromise any democrat in power so your desire is effectively "don't criticize any democrat ever".

But even without that, I wholeheartedly disagree with your notion that is criticizing someone that the right is also criticizing is a bad thing.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
The thing is, the right will try to compromise any democrat in power so your desire is effectively "don't criticize any democrat ever".

But even without that, I wholeheartedly disagree with your notion that is criticizing someone that the right is also criticizing is a bad thing.

It's not just "Criticizing someone that the right is criticizing", is it? It's doing that WITHOUT A FUCKING PLAN FOR IMPROVEMENT, OR EVEN A HOPE FOR IMPROVEMENT. And when the only road to go is further down. And when that person really needs to get in power so the worse alternatives don't.

How many fucking times have you missed this.

I need a drink.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
It's not just "Criticizing someone that the right is criticizing", is it? It's doing that WITHOUT A FUCKING PLAN FOR IMPROVEMENT, OR EVEN A HOPE FOR IMPROVEMENT. And when the only road to go is further down.

How many fucking times have you missed this.
Because that's not something I agree with. WE DO NOT ALWAYS HAVE TO HAVE A PLAN IN ORDER TO CRITICIZE SOMETHING.

I do not need to have a plan to replace Pelosi to find things I do not like about her.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
Because that's not something agree with. WE DO NOT ALWAYS HAVE TO HAVE A PLAN IN ORDER TO CRITICIZE SOMETHING.

You do if you want your words to be more than empty rhetoric. Without a plan or a productive intent it's just a shitty hot take that helps nobody and is entirely self serving. And in certain situations it makes things worse for everybody.

You don't want Pelosi for speaker? The only alternatives are worse than her. It doesn't matter if you couch it with "I want someone to the left". The only thing that registers to people is you adding a voice to the "no pelosi" pile. Words have meaning but it is never the true intent of the speaker. Conversation distorts in an eternal game of chinese whispers. What you say is never what's heard. Meaning is understood in aggregate and not nuance. This is a universial fact of life and you must account for it if you want to have a productive time of things.

That's right, motherfuckers. Shit just got existential.

And I hate it.

:(
 
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Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
You do if you want your words to be more than empty rhetoric. Without a plan or a productive intent it's just a shitty hot take that helps nobody and is entirely self serving. And in certain situations it makes things worse for everybody.

You don't want Pelosi for speaker? The only alternatives are worse than her. It doesn't matter if you couch it with "I want someone to the left". The only thing that registers to people is you adding a voice to the "no pelosi" pile. Words have meaning but it is never the true intent of the speaker. Conversation distorts in an eternal game of chinese whispers. What you say is never what's heard. Meaning is understood in aggregate and not nuance. This is a universial fact of life and you must account for it if you want to have a productive time of things.

That's right, motherfuckers. Shit just got existential.

And I hate it.

:(
This is a discussion forum. We don't need to have a plan for every gripe in order to discuss things. This isn't a planning commission.

Yeah, I don't want Pelosi as speaker, but I also realize that she's the best we got right now. If it adds to the "no Pelosi" pile I honestly don't care.
 

Ensorcell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,441
You do if you want your words to be more than empty rhetoric. Without a plan or a productive intent it's just a shitty hot take that helps nobody and is entirely self serving. And in certain situations it makes things worse for everybody.

You don't want Pelosi for speaker? The only alternatives are worse than her. It doesn't matter if you couch it with "I want someone to the left". The only thing that registers to people is you adding a voice to the "no pelosi" pile. Words have meaning but it is never the true intent of the speaker. Conversation distorts in an eternal game of chinese whispers. What you say is never what's heard. Meaning is understood in aggregate and not nuance. This is a universial fact of life and you must account for it if you want to have a productive time of things.

That's right, motherfuckers. Shit just got existential.

And I hate it.

:(
Believe me, you're just going to keep going in circles with this. It's not worth it. lol
 

Earthstrike

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,232
This is a discussion forum. We don't need to have a plan for every gripe in order to discuss things. This isn't a planning commission.

Yeah, I don't want Pelosi as speaker, but I also realize that she's the best we got right now. If it adds to the "no Pelosi" pile I honestly don't care.

What does it mean to not want Pelosi as speaker but simultaneously acknowledge she's the best we have? I don't think it means anything. I mean if someone was the most qualified for something, I would want them. I wouldn't say I don't want them but ok they do it because they are the best. That doesn't mean anything. At best it's an expression of an emotion about someone.
 

Deleted member 22490

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Oct 28, 2017
9,237
What does it mean to not want Pelosi as speaker but simultaneously acknowledge she's the best we have? I don't think it means anything. I mean if someone was the most qualified for something, I would want them. I wouldn't say I don't want them but ok they do it because they are the best. That doesn't mean anything. At best it's an expression of an emotion about someone.
It means what it says. She's the best because she's the most progressive in the running, but I can still wish someone more progressive was in the running. And yeah, it's an expression of emotion but I don't see anything wrong with doing that either.
 

Earthstrike

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,232
It means what it says. She's the best because she's the most progressive in the running, but I can still wish someone more progressive was in the running. And yeah, it's an expression of emotion but I don't see anything wrong with doing that either.

And don't get me wrong, I don't express any negative emotion towards you because you don't see anything wrong with this. I do feel there is a macro effect where, if every time we mention a person's name, there is an associated negative emotion, then people just end up not liking that person. I think this was a big factor in hilary clinton's negative portrayal in society. The fact is, when every instance of an event x is associated with negative feelings it can feed into an attitude that may not even be proportional. Nancy Pelosi isn't as left as we need her to be. Ok. So we have a political system, multiple political representatives on both sides of the aisle, and the idea of political leftness and rightness. If it is a distribution that looks like a bell curve and Nancy Pelosi is in the middle, does that warrant intense negative emotions? Does it warrant thinking about this effect and it could affect our views?

I think this is a fairly unique consideration that the left should be thinking of more, considering the modern means by which the conservative media apparatus will attempt to influence society to achieve their own ends, which often also engenders hindering ours.

As a result, I'm not saying you can't criticize Nancy Pelosi. It is worth pointing out that whether or not you criticize can be thought of as a function on how you act on available information you may or may not have considered. Hopefully you don't read into this post with a negative tone. I intend for this information to be taken neutrally.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
If it is a distribution that looks like a bell curve and Nancy Pelosi is in the middle, does that warrant intense negative emotions? Does it warrant thinking about this effect and it could affect our views?
It really depends on who is judging her and where they fall on the spectrum. For a leftist, they might have intense emotions regarding her because of stuff she has supported and things she has said. For someone closer to the center, they wouldn't. I think we should do well to see how all of this can affect our views and find out why we dislike the people we do. I have and I have my reasons.
I think this is a fairly unique consideration that the left should be thinking of more, considering the modern means by which the conservative media apparatus will attempt to influence society to achieve their own ends, which often also engenders hindering ours.

There is a lot of discussion on the left about how the media, and not just the conservative media apparatus, shapes our opinions. A recent liberal example is how Jake Tapper intentionally misinterpreted the Mercatus study on M4A despite being told how wrong he was. Citations Needed is a great podcast that criticizes how the media frames things. A recent episode talked about how the media and politicians worried about the war without actually opposing it.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
i wonder how things would be different if Pelosi never said "You'll have to pass the bill to find out what's in it". The negative response to that even in the mainstream press was very intense for a very long time, even though it was completely unfair and very obviously out of context.

She did a real piss poor job of talking her way out of it in follow up interviews too, which certainly didn't help. I think a lot of opinions about her got formed from that period.
 

striderno9

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
2,343
New York, NY
Not only that but she's an extremely competent person in the seat and has been responsible for many victories. The narrative against her is ridiculous opportunistic bullshit by people blowing hot air. It's so sad to see.

Not to doubt you but I'd like to know what her victories are? I know she got the ACA passed but that was in a majority. She didn't hold Bush accountable for his war crimes, and she didn't hold Obama accountable on some of his drone strikes.

My issue with Nancy is that she is resisting the progressive movement. She hasn't uttered a word about raising the minimum wage, she hasn't said anything about "free" college, she isn't pushing medicare for all. She may have been a beacon of progressive values 20 years ago but she hasn't done much lately except raise money with the legal bribery system we have in place.

I will back her because she is the most progressive candidate but I'm not happy about it.