Oct 27, 2017
9,489
You can get better resolution and smooth framerate now on panels. CRTS were great but the color bleeding and low light lumens output much to be desired on that side of things, IMO. Heck I had 32" Vega tv even a Sony VPH-1271 projector at one point 20 some years ago so I have seen what they can do. But the higher end modern tech just seems better now imo. But hey if you dig it go for it. With video everyone perceives things differently. So enjoy what you like.
 

rou021

Member
Oct 27, 2017
542
Ooh I didn't know they were like, business class monitors. Whats the difference between the PVMs I was looking at and a consumer set?
PVMs and BVMs were geared towards professional usage, primarily in areas like the broadcast and post production industries. They typically have a higher resolution tube (600-800 lines for the more popular ones from the '90s) compared to consumer ones (many weren't any higher than 300-500 lines of resolution). The effect of this higher resolution is that the picture is not only sharper, but the scanlines tend to be a bit thicker. In spite of having high res picture tubes, only a handful of later models actually support HD signals or even 480p.

Being geared towards professional usage, there a number of features they lack, but consumer sets have (like a built in tuner or an IR remote). What they do, however, they do exceptionally well. They have some of the best geometry and convergence you'll find and color accuracy that was for years the gold standard. They're very easy to calibrate, very well built, and fairly easy to maintain.

One of the other reasons for their popularity is that many of them feature RGB and component inputs. RGB inputs were virtually non-existent on American consumer CRT TVs. Even component wasn't that common for SD CRT and only really popped up on the latest models. And out of those later models, some of them had digital video processing that can cause problems with retro games. HD CRT TVs usually had component, but they usually always had digital processing that had those same problems. It's possible to mod a TV to add an RGB input, but it's not feasible outside of certain models and working with CRTs can be dangerous.

As such, one of the easier ways to get RGB or component inputs on a CRT for gaming was to just get a used pro monitor—whether that would be a Sony PVM/BVM or one from another company. About ten years ago most places were unloading them as they became obsolete for professional work, so they were a lot cheaper and plentiful. They also weren't that well known either, so demand wasn't nearly as high. Of course, it didn't take long until they started becoming popular and like everything else associated with retro gaming, demand shot up and the price along with it.

Honestly, while they are outstanding displays, I'm not sure a lot of them are worth the current asking price these days. Between some older games actually looking better with composite on consumer sets, to the continually improving quality of scalers and newer TVs, I wouldn't recommend them to most people. Most people would be better off either getting a used consumer set or buying a good scaler and an OLED TV.

BFI?

I run mine at 120hz, looks smooth to me with no ghosting.

For most things I'd say motion looks better on OLED than my CRT monitor or SD CRT TV. Both of those have noticeable phosphor trails, but aside from that they still feel snappy to use and some SD content arguably looks better on them.
While OLED may have a faster response time than CRT, it's still subject to persistence blur like LCD. This means motion isn't nearly as clear as it is on a CRT even if it doesn't have phosphor trails like a CRT. A CRT natively has a strobing effect that gives it a low persistence and thus very clear motion. Even at 120Hz, OLED still isn't quite as clear as a CRT. OLEDs don't flicker that much naturally, so they need a BFI mode that can add strobing to the image. Many newer OLEDs have this, but it has some downsides. Namely, it dims the picture significantly and introduces some flicker (though a CRT isn't any less flickery here). This helps considerably with motion clarity, but the level of strobing is still higher with CRTs, so the vast majority of OLEDs can't quite match them in clarity. Some OLEDs do support 120Hz with BFI though, which is a lot more in line with a CRT at 60Hz. Sadly, that feature got removed from most if not all of this year's OLED models.
 

alr1ght

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,169
Trust me, I wish modern displays could compare. CRTs are big and annoying, but older games just look so so much better than any modern tech that's they're worth the hassle.
 

Frag Waffles

Member
Apr 7, 2018
1,085
I'm getting jealous looking at that Digital Foundry video. More and more I've been really sick of motion blur and low frames. I always go for whatever plays and looks smoothest. Crank down the rez, shut off motion blur in game, whatever it takes. I have a backlog of modern boomer shooters and now I have FOMO, ha.

Has probably been over a decade now since I had a CRT TV. I remember when I was younger, I would have my older consoles attached to it despite having my 360 and PS3 on a bigger LCD. But somewhere along the line, it got too cumbersome.
 

NuclearCake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,867
PVMs and BVMs were geared towards professional usage, primarily in areas like the broadcast and post production industries. They typically have a higher resolution tube (600-800 lines for the more popular ones from the '90s) compared to consumer ones (many weren't any higher than 300-500 lines of resolution). The effect of this higher resolution is that the picture is not only sharper, but the scanlines tend to be a bit thicker. In spite of having high res picture tubes, only a handful of later models actually support HD signals or even 480p.

Great post. Just wanted to highlight this part and it was always pretty strange to me, with regards to how rare 480p support was, even with PVMs and BVMs line of CRTs. Very few sets supported it. I can understand that it is not widely supported for consumer CRTs, but only a handful of professional sets support it either. It's strange that not much need there was in post-production.
 

Unicorn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,739
I'm getting jealous looking at that Digital Foundry video. More and more I've been really sick of motion blur and low frames. I always go for whatever plays and looks smoothest. Crank down the rez, shut off motion blur in game, whatever it takes. I have a backlog of modern boomer shooters and now I have FOMO, ha.

Has probably been over a decade now since I had a CRT TV. I remember when I was younger, I would have my older consoles attached to it despite having my 360 and PS3 on a bigger LCD. But somewhere along the line, it got too cumbersome.
You can get one for free right now.
 

rou021

Member
Oct 27, 2017
542
Great post. Just wanted to highlight this part and it was always pretty strange to me, with regards to how rare 480p support was, even with PVMs and BVMs line of CRTs. Very few sets supported it. I can understand that it is not widely supported for consumer CRTs, but only a handful of professional sets support it either. It's strange that not much need there was in post-production.
Considering their intended usage, 480i was probably sufficient for most professionals. Even in professional circles, SD was the norm for a long time and by the time HD was ubiquitous, CRTs were already being phased out. It's unfortunate because it makes the HD monitors that much more expensive than the SD ones, which aren't exactly cheap either.
 

Version 3.0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,549
Meh. I still have my WEGA, which I was using for older systems all the way up to 2020. But eventually, everything looked better on a good modern TV, and I retired it to the garage.

I still have a CRT hooked up for light gun games - a nice Magnavox - but I don't use it for anything else, even though it's right there. I use the duplicate systems hooked up to the big smart TVs.
 

Version 3.0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,549
CRTs hurt my eyes like crazy. Is this something that's addressable?

All CRTs? My first guess would be it's the 60hz refresh, which on a CRT monitor can certainly do that. Up the refresh rate. I can see 60hz flashing quite blatantly, and it does indeed hurt the eyes. I used to change people's refresh at work, back in the day, all the time for exactly that problem.

But on a CRT TV, it should retain the image longer and not be an issue. Unless it's a Trinitron or something like that, in which case if it's a better model, you can turn on line doubling. If it's a cheaper one, there might be nothing you can do. I hated those models.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,727
It's not that they are too good, it's LCD panels just being shitty all around. Doesn't matter if you have a 100€ or a 1000€ IPS, there are things that'll never be matched. Remember when they became affordable for the mass market and everybody wanted one because they were so slim and small. My cousin had one and the blacks there where dark blue.

CRTs aren't perfect obviously and are annoying in their own ways (being large and heavy for example).

Can't wait until OLED monitors or whatever become widespread and cheaper.

Yep lcds suck ass and it hurts every time I see people saying "it's not that bad it looks good to me" paying like 2500usd for an lcd
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,713
Not LCDs, but OLEDs are close to or even better than CRTs as far as clear movement.

CRTs often have phosphor trail artifacts that OLEDs don't.
No offense, but that's exactly what I mean by "people think we are close".

Like others have explained, OLEDs are still sample and hold tech and, even at 120 Hz, still produce a lot of blur.

Try, for example, text at a certain faster scroll speed - you'll have a hard time trying to read it.
 

Turom

Member
Apr 14, 2021
401
France
Team BVM reporting for duty !

dyplva0xc8q61.jpg
 
OP
OP
Mindfreak191

Mindfreak191

Member
Dec 2, 2017
4,820
My last CRT was a Samsung Syncmaster with 1024x768 @ 100 Hz with a flat screen surface. It was ... beautiful.
Mine is a Syncmaster with a flat screen! Albeit it only goes to 85Hz at that resolution, but still it's just crazy how a dark unlit area in a game is actually dark and unlit compared to when I bring it over to my IPS panel lol.
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,420
There isn't a single CRT in my parent's house anymore, and that makes me sad. I don't even think we have that old Apple computer anymore. I would love to have one again. I don't need or want it to be big because those things are heavy. Something small but not too small would be great.

When I was a kid, I used to change the tint and color on the TV because I thought it was fun. It felt like I was playing a new experience seeing everything in new color palettes. I distinctly remember doing this with Kirby Super Star and Super Street Fighter II on SNES. (It was hilariously confusing on Kirby SS because Milky Way Wishes was already a palette swap game.) The prominent CRTs in the house were JVC brand, but there was this really tiny TV we kept in the garage that did it better than any of those. I wish I remembered what it was. I doubt my parents do at this point.
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
I really have to get a super small CRT from somewhere and fit it somewhere. I hate teenage-me for throwing away the old Grundig CRT I had because "HAHA I have a LCD now *swoon*" 🙁
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
17,484
Midgar, With Love
I had a gorgeous Sony Trinitron 32" from 2009 through 2012. It saddens me to this day that its heaviness prohibited me from taking it with me past then. I just didn't have the means. Even in 2012, I was fully aware how much better pre-HD games looked on there, and I knew I had a gem.
 

aidan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,798
Looks great, can I ask what size TV that is?

I've been offered a 25 inch Sony Trinitron for free, but I'm worried that's gonna be too big/heavy for the space I want to put it

It's a 27", which is the biggest I'd personally go with because I don't have a ton of space. There's lots of 13-21" options which are really nice, too.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,173
UK
It's a 27", which is the biggest I'd personally go with because I don't have a ton of space. There's lots of 13-21" options which are really nice, too.

I have a 14 inch already (lol) but the remote is broken and I can't get to the service menu, and ideally I want a better one. I asked people at work and someone has the 25 inch one I can have. It looks great but it apparently weighs 33kg, and I can literally carry the 14 inch one with one hand, so I was hoping for 14-20 really

I work for a Uni so have been asking the AV guys if we have any old PVMs laying about, but no luck so far
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,202
BFI? I run mine at 120hz, looks smooth to me with no ghosting.
For most things I'd say motion looks better on OLED than my CRT monitor or SD CRT TV. Both of those have noticeable phosphor trails, but aside from that they still feel snappy to use and some SD content arguably looks better on them.
If you're seeing long trails on the CRT, you probably have brightness set too low.
CRTs were never meant to turn off when displaying black, and anything bright moving over that will do it. The tube needs to be kept 'active'.

As for OLED: 60 FPS games are not nearly as smooth on them as they are on a CRT at 60Hz.
Even after enabling BFI, OLED still lacks the crystal-clear motion of a CRT; but it does a good job reducing judder.

I've mostly been playing PC games at high frame rates on my C1 OLEDs, but recently tried playing some retro games again and had to set up BFI, because I was seeing bad judder and double-images as the screen scrolled; e.g. the candles on the walls in Symphony of the Night.
It's a dramatic improvement for anything locked to 60 FPS, like old console games.
Thankfully that can often be set up in the emulator itself (at 120Hz) rather than having to completely disable VRR on the TV every time.

That being said: HDR shaders combined with BFI on an OLED is starting to look pretty damn good.
I'd still prefer to have an actual CRT if I could get one, but things are much better now than they were even just a few years ago.

You can get better resolution and smooth framerate now on panels. CRTS were great but the color bleeding and low light lumens output much to be desired on that side of things, IMO. Heck I had 32" Vega tv even a Sony VPH-1271 projector at one point 20 some years ago so I have seen what they can do. But the higher end modern tech just seems better now imo. But hey if you dig it go for it. With video everyone perceives things differently. So enjoy what you like.
Color bleeding mostly just means that you weren't using an RGB connection.
I say "mostly" because some consumer sets (especially modded ones) are still going to have some bleeding/blending in the darker shades, compared to a professional display/PC monitor.

dithering_zps7b2910b6y6jvx.png

CRTs hurt my eyes like crazy. Is this something that's addressable?
Not really - at least not for console games.
The most you can do for them is lower the "contrast" control and make the set dimmer - which should make the flicker less noticeable.

One of the main benefits to CRT is how smooth and clear motion is on them, compared to flat panels; but that only works for 60 FPS at 60Hz.
If you were to double the refresh rate and display 60 FPS at 120Hz to minimize flicker, you get very clear and distinct double-images as the screen scrolls - which defeats the purpose.

But if you're playing PC games on a monitor, you could easily run games at high frame rates, matching the refresh rate; e.g. 120 FPS at 120Hz.

The fact LCD TV's killed FED or SED research still saddens me. We could have progressed crt technology in new ways and still had the refresh and color benefits today.
People should be thinking of SED/FED as improved Plasma technology rather than "flat-panel CRTs."
They had a fixed pixel grid, and were driven using PWM - just like Plasma TVs.
At the time, the main advantages were: power efficiency, contrast, and motion clarity.
Good improvements; but they do little to make a Plasma TV anything more like a CRT, or something that would compete with OLED for modern content.

I did appreciate their push for motion clarity, but it seems that no-one really cares to compete on that with televisions these days.
The problem is that people are so used to flicker-free displays now, that it would be tough to convince most people to go back.
BFI at 60Hz can be pretty harsh on OLED at times (especially at higher brightness levels) - and it would have to be more extreme to match a CRT.
 

alr1ght

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,169
meh

I prefer CRT shaders against having the hassle of a big ass tv that weighs a ton and will be dead in 2-5 years

www.youtube.com

Retroarch Shaders Comparison vs Real CRT - 4K 60fps UHD

Retroarch Shaders Comparison in 4K UHD (3840x2160)This and other overlays available for free at: https://www.patreon.com/kamemameha Comparacion shaders en re...
And then the screen moves and it's a complete blur fest.

CRTs are going strong 20+ years later, and are probably a hell of a lot sturdier than modern tech.
 

Aurora

Member
Jul 22, 2018
1,391
Lemuria
I've been thinking of picking up a CRT monitor since I play enough retro games to justify owning a CRT, and alongside that I'd be looking to get my hands on a VGA-DisplayPort adapter. Is it necessary to get a higher end one if I'm mostly just looking to use it for retro content like PS1 games or older PC titles?
 

ToD_

Member
Oct 27, 2017
408
Are there any old 2D games that, through hacks or by other means, are able to run at high frame rates? For example, a slow motion cheat that runs the game at half speed (but still 60 unique frames) and then have an emulator run it at double speed at 120fps.

I feel like we're going in the right direction for modern games. Being able to run games at high refresh rates reduces motion blur significantly, and there is still a push for higher refresh rates. We'll probably reach a point where this is solved for modern games in this fashion, but games locked at ~60fps will always look blurry unless we reduce motion persistence. That's sadly not an area where a lot of improvement is happening. Despite owning a CRT, it's still frustrating not being able to run old games without blur on modern displays for many reasons.
 

rou021

Member
Oct 27, 2017
542
I've mostly been playing PC games at high frame rates on my C1 OLEDs, but recently tried playing some retro games again and had to set up BFI, because I was seeing bad judder and double-images as the screen scrolled; e.g. the candles on the walls in Symphony of the Night.
It's a dramatic improvement for anything locked to 60 FPS, like old console games.
Thankfully that can often be set up in the emulator itself (at 120Hz) rather than having to completely disable VRR on the TV every time.
That's interesting. Do you have the BFI set to high when you enable it? I'm wondering if it's the TV refreshing at 120Hz for a 60Hz signal that causes the judder and enabling BFI forces the TV to refesh at 60Hz, matching the input signal.
 

Omegasquash

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,400
I've been thinking of picking up a CRT monitor since I play enough retro games to justify owning a CRT, and alongside that I'd be looking to get my hands on a VGA-DisplayPort adapter. Is it necessary to get a higher end one if I'm mostly just looking to use it for retro content like PS1 games or older PC titles?

It's worth it, if you can find a cheap one (you might have to do some looking). My old 13 inch started to green up on me, so I found a 27 inch JVC on FB marketplace for cheap and local. Works great, looks great, and feels better to play, IMO. Playing original games on original hardware with the displays they were intended for is nice.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
17,196
For games, it's not really that CRT look so much better that HD TVs pretty much destroyed the quality of SD contents so much that something like Wii looked like utter garbo.
The difference is not even close.
I still have my old small CRT and even with shitty cables the end result is sooooooooooooooooo much better than the same game played in a modern platform on a modern screen.
Modern screens manage to make n64 gmaes pixelated like you're on a Playstation! That kinda tells you everything you need to know about that setup.
 

Unicorn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,739
I wonder if those prototype SED have circulated into the hands of collectors?
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,202
That's interesting. Do you have the BFI set to high when you enable it? I'm wondering if it's the TV refreshing at 120Hz for a 60Hz signal that causes the judder and enabling BFI forces the TV to refesh at 60Hz, matching the input signal.
I use software BFI at 120Hz in RetroArch, because that lets me keep VRR enabled on the TV.
This blanks out every other frame, so it drops the effective refresh rate to 60Hz.

To use the TV's BFI option (OLED Motion Pro) I have to disable G-Sync/VRR manually, drop the output to 60Hz, and and then enable BFI (High) in the TV options - which is a hassle to do every time.
The result is essentially the same, but software-based BFI has the risk of not being perfectly synced and flickering intermittently (this has not been an issue on my system).

Motion Pro at Medium/Low, or at 120Hz, would have the same issue as running a CRT at 120Hz - the refresh rate being double the frame rate means that you see clear double-images/judder as it pans.
I don't use BFI with modern games, because most of those will run at 80-90 FPS or higher on my PC - and that looks good with VRR.
 

Turom

Member
Apr 14, 2021
401
France
Very cool. Any advice for purchasing one (used I'm sure) in the US?
Thanks !

I have contacts in Paris working in broadcast maintenance that helped me get most of these, it's pretty hard to come by here in France without networking but I don't know about the US market.

My advice would be that unless you're some hardcore enthusiast that has a lot of time dedicated to this hobby, finding a more affordable/available good consumer set is probably the better choice for 99% of people.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,489
Color bleeding mostly just means that you weren't using an RGB connection.
I say "mostly" because some consumer sets (especially modded ones) are still going to have some bleeding/blending in the darker shades, compared to a professional display/PC monitor.

dithering_zps7b2910b6y6jvx.png


Not really - at least not for console games.
The most you can do for them is lower the "contrast" control and make the set dimmer - which should make the flicker less noticeable.

Although this is more noticable for svideo even with rbg inputs you still have it. It's impossible at some level to have all three guns mapped across the picture exactly. Drift by default is part of the game with Crts. Yeah you can calibrate on higher end crt items but it's still a thing. Even if you map it perfectly you still have to deal with the different output levels of each gun which will impact it.
 

Jroc

Member
Jun 9, 2018
6,233
Crt geometry issues drive me insane. I'm unable to find a mint condition unit, and the CRT monitor I've held onto the past 20 years is slightly off no matter how hard I try to calibrate it.

I definitely appreciate the unique advantages of a CRT, but I also think people online are too quick to gloss over the disadvantages. Like a QD-OLED is instantly invalidated due to the inferior motion resolution, yet the higher brightness, better average contrast, HDR and always-perfect geometry are ignored.

My dream CRT is one of those multiscan Sony units that can do native 240p, 480i and 480p. Consumer HD CRTs are usually widescreen and digitally scale everything to atleast 480p.
 

Scarf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
406
Jun 25, 2022
6,882
I recently stumbled upon this DF video about CRT monitors and never knew this was the case. CRTs have always had a bad reputation in my younger days (if you had money, you had a flat screen). Could someone explain to me why games look better on a CRT compared to modern displays from a technical perspective?

www.youtube.com

DF Direct! Modern Games Look Amazing On CRT Monitors... Yes, Better than LCD!

After buying a CRT monitor for his retro PC, John started to play modern PC games on it... and things escalated from there, culminating in Rich purchasing th...
 

Unicorn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,739
Shame they didn't compare good CRT shaders on that OLED to the CRTs. Sony Megatron CRT shader on RetroArch (which uses HDR to counter the dimming of the shader) + BFI on my LG CX is absolutely mindblowing stuff.
I can't wait until I can afford a new HD set for shit like this. (currently using a '08 TCL lcd...)
 

breander

Member
Oct 27, 2017
536
Crt geometry issues drive me insane. I'm unable to find a mint condition unit, and the CRT monitor I've held onto the past 20 years is slightly off no matter how hard I try to calibrate it.

I definitely appreciate the unique advantages of a CRT, but I also think people online are too quick to gloss over the disadvantages. Like a QD-OLED is instantly invalidated due to the inferior motion resolution, yet the higher brightness, better average contrast, HDR and always-perfect geometry are ignored.

My dream CRT is one of those multiscan Sony units that can do native 240p, 480i and 480p. Consumer HD CRTs are usually widescreen and digitally scale everything to atleast 480p.

Yup the geometry issues are what kill CRTs for me as well. No amount of tweaking seems to ever fix them completely.
 

Freshmaker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,969
I recently stumbled upon this DF video about CRT monitors and never knew this was the case. CRTs have always had a bad reputation in my younger days (if you had money, you had a flat screen). Could someone explain to me why games look better on a CRT compared to modern displays from a technical perspective?

www.youtube.com

DF Direct! Modern Games Look Amazing On CRT Monitors... Yes, Better than LCD!

After buying a CRT monitor for his retro PC, John started to play modern PC games on it... and things escalated from there, culminating in Rich purchasing th...
They don't.