On Voting or Not Voting for Biden in Light of the Sexual Assault Allegations |OT| Discussion Guidelines in OP

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Poodlestrike

It's salt.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
6,890
Hey all,

This is not me being the OP. This is just a single, centralized place to discuss what's become a fairly hot-button topic here so we don't get a slew of threads, counter-threads, etc. etc.

In short, the positions we've seen outlined are (without endorsing any of them):

1. Voting is important, all the way up and all the way down the ticket, for reasons of power and politics. The Republicans represent an existential threat to the wellbeing of millions of vulnerable Americans in a way the Democrats simply do not, even a Democrat like Joe Biden. Biden still has a very long way down to go until he's half so bad as Trump. Ergo, it's your responsibility to vote for him, even if you find him incredibly objectionable (which some people disagree with in the first place), simply because the other guy is that much worse. Not doing so, in this model, is an expression of privilege, as a typically blue voter sitting out is, in our 2 party, system, effectively the same as a nonvoter switching sides.

2. A vote is a personal expression of conscience and morality based on an evaluation of each candidate individually. Joe Biden is being accused of sexual assault. He voted for the Iraq War, and he voted against bussing, and he voted for the crime bill, and many other things beside. His platform is insufficient to face the coming climate and economic crises of the coming decades. Trump being terrible is irrelevant, because Biden has made himself ineligible by default. Ergo, demanding that people vote for him is a blind expression of partisanship at best and a cruel act of violence at worst, as you force people hurt by Biden and people like Biden to lend their support. This last part can be especially important. There's a great deal of trauma wrapped up in that.

3. Don't vote for Biden, but vote downballot. In this argument, voting is a political position, but it allows more for the understanding of a vote as a personal expression as well. By splitting this difference, it comes to a course of action: namely, Trump is unacceptable, but so is Biden, ergo, just vote for the downballot candidates in an effort to staunch the bleeding should Trump win a second term.

There are most likely more positions than this. If you feel like I've misconstrued one of the arguments, by all means, correct me; I'm doing my best to give a fair assessment to each.

Discussion guidelines are as follows:

Official Staff Communication
Remember that general hostility rules still apply. For example, do not accuse members, even without naming them, of "supporting a rapist" or discrediting the victim if they choose to vote for Biden. Likewise, do not accuse members of not caring about marginalized people if they choose to not vote. Avoid metacommentary.

People will get heated. This is a difficult topic for many reasons. We are allowing a degree of venting, but we will not be tolerating hostility, as outlined above. If you see somebody who you believe to be violating the staff post, do not respond, report. This can avoid escalating the situation to the point where we're forced to issue multiple bans, possibly including you.

What is not bannable are posts you disagree with or believe to be "shaming" in either direction that do not violate the above guidelines. Please, try to follow the rules. This is an important discussion worth having, but it's not possible if it just turns into a mudfight.

Furthermore, all these positions have one core assumption to them: that this will still come down to Trump vs. Biden. "Make Warren the nominee" and "Bernie got screwed" type digressions will be regarded as a derail and will be moderated as such.
 
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Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,013
Thank you, this was really needed.

I should add that I think the whole freakout about this is unwarranted. The opinion leaning to sit out in November is very much an ERA based opinion that is not seen elsewhere in any sort of large quantities. 4 years of Trump has been more than enough. I think its a waste of anyones time to try and convert someone who has seen these 4 years and decided on sitting it out.

Let them be.

If these 4 years weren't enough; nothing you say is going to change that. The good news is turnout is up this year, looking like a continuation off of the blue wave of 2018. So regardless, Orange boy is getting punted.
 
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Veliladon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,386
Hi. I'm a straight, white, cis, male, upper middle class, professional asshole. Vote for whoever the D nominee is or I'll get a fat tax break and cultural hegemony.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,744
I fully understand the argument that people are putting forward as voting is a moral decision, that they cannot pull the trigger for Biden because of his record and these allegations. With that said, I'm going to hold my nose and vote for the guy because of the larger ramifications that will happen if we don't get this country back on track before it becomes repairable. We are still months away, maybe something will happen that pushes him out of the race and we get someone we can truly support...just not hopeful given the current dynamics.
 

Moppeh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,204
Pretty fair and balanced OP!

Biden is a terrible human being and despite that, Trump is way worse.

If Biden wins, Americans need to organize and fight for what they believe. Biden's approach to healthcare, climate change, foreign policy and wealth inequality are fucking terrible and need to be challenged. Americans should also demand he step down, because by that point it will be 2021 and racist rapists shouldn't be in power anymore and shouldn't have been in the first place. Fuck that shit.
 

Agar25

Member
Apr 12, 2018
7,385
I am fortunate enough to live in California so I only need to vote down ballot. I will never cast a vote for Joe Biden.

That said I understand the people outside of my situation who one hundred percent feel they have to vote for him just as I understand the people that 100% do not want to. I just really hope this thread does a good job and stops a lot of the condescension and shaming that has been a problem for a while.
 

Zutrax

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,443
Just taking this all in, this might be one of the most morally complex elections I'll ever be a part of. It's such a mess... I still don't know what I'm going to do come election time, it'll probably take a lot of digesting.
 

ZealousD

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,298
This is why you vote.

 

Orb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,324
USA
This year more than any other I'm being forced to contend with my own ideas of what it means to vote. And I think ultimately I have to land on the side that it's solely based on my own preference of what I think would be better for me and for the nation as a whole. I am done with the idea of playing 4D chess with my vote, about voting for someone solely as a way of stopping someone else. I will vote based on policy, record, and character.

If Biden wins the Democratic nomination, which seems fairly secure at this point, I will not vote for him for President. I don't agree with him on policy, I think his record has some very severe flaws, and his character is disqualifying.

I will go to the polls and I will vote for every race at every level. I always do. But for President in November, there's a good chance I will be voting for a third-party or independent candidate. If a candidate doesn't emerge that I like, I'll abstain from that race and vote in others.

Actively choosing to abstain in a political race is just as valid a method of exercising my rights as picking a candidate is.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,034
I am grateful for the people who will still show up to vote downballot. The fastest way to move left is to do it in lower races.
 

jay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,436
I am going to vote but dislike the idea that it is not someone's decision to make. If no candidate is appealing, that is easily the party's fault as much as the voter. People should vote their conscious. For some, that will be damage reduction, to others it is too distasteful and that's ok.

I also think that the error of telling everyone this one election, whichever it is, is the most important election ever is damaging in the long run. It breeds cynicism and forces us to sell our souls for short term gains. I am not explicitly saying this is not one of the more important elections, this is all theoretical.
 

Cation

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,836
Yeet, Yikes, Yelp.

(I meant this in the context of the other closed discussion, but it was too late lol)

Now that I have your attention, a vote for Biden - in this unusual circumstance - doesn't mean a vote to support rapists. We have to go deeper than who the President is. This whole election is greater than the simple "Trump vs Dem" ballot. This election is a vote against greed, stupidity and racism that our current administrations has brought to the nation. You have to remember that Trump is the status quo here. He is the standard that any candidate is compared to.

Standing idly by will just give Trump more reason to feel validated. Imagine if we all sit by and let Trump take a victory - a victory with even better numbers than before. The fool will take it as a sign to double/truple/quadruple down and go full force into his backwards, hateful policies. So many people will be affected directly and indirectly. Families have been separated, people have been detained with no hope of release, crimes against immigrants and other minorities have risen to alarming levels, places of worship have been under attack. The list goes on and on, we all know it. Letting Trump win will only allow him and all the evil people around him to fully enforce their ideas. Trump is just a figurehead - the real power is in who is around him. The men around Trump have goals of expanding their wealth and spreading their backwards beliefs.

I KNOW - many of you are disappointed and enraged in Biden. I, too, would never consider voting for him, let alone anyone accused of such crimes. But if its Biden or Trump at the final voting round (and it most likely will), you might might think you have a clear conscience by standing up for your beliefs and not voting (and in a perfect world - I would applaud you with all my heart). But in this scenario, you would have allowed the lives of millions been more hurt and that isn't a "cleared conscious" in my definition.

In not voting, your own privileged position of basing the election in the lens of "who is the president and what crimes has he done" has costed the privileges of many more unfortunate than you. And that is a fatal flaw in your logic you must avoid.
 
Jun 10, 2018
2,268
There has been only one argument I've made consistently concerning this topic. And it's that no one, under any circumstances, has the fucking authority nor should they think to have the fucking gall to try and chastise a member of a disenfranchised community not voting for a politician exhibiting behavior or who enacted policies they suffered from. End of.

The only gall you should have is to listen, understand, and respect their perspective while keeping them mindful of alternative thought processes. That's it. Anything more and you are grossly overstepping your bounds to the point of being an antipathetic opportunist.
 

Wolven Hammer

Member
Feb 26, 2018
979
Los Angeles, California
Copy paste from the other thread:

A second trump term is no threat to me personally, but I'll still be voting for Biden's creepy ass. There are lives at stake.

I won't judge anyone sitting this one out, though. What a disgrace.

Our own "progressive" and "liberal" media stabbed us all in the back on Sanders.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
17,757
I’m told over and over that my demographic (young leftists) is disposable despite me personally voting in every election of the last decade so if the DNC and its base feel confident enough in a rapist to beat Trump, then they can do it without me.

Will vote downballot but my local rep who I canvassed for in 2018 to flip my district might have corona...shit sucks.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,546
USA
Poodlestrike , can we please have a mod response in regards to downplaying and dismissing an accusation of rape against Joe Biden? I've seen this happen across threads and it's disgusting.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,744
Standing idly by will just give Trump more reason to feel validated. Imagine if we all sit by and let Trump take a victory - a victory with even better numbers than before. The fool will take it as a sign to double/truple/quadruple down and go full force into his backwards, hateful policies. So many people will be affected directly and indirectly. Families have been separated, people have been detained with no hope of release, crimes against immigrants and other minorities have risen to alarming levels, places of worship have been under attack. The list goes on and on, we all know it. Letting Trump win will only allow him and all the evil people around him to fully enforce their ideas. Trump is just a figurehead - the real power is in who is around him. The men around Trump have goals of expanding their wealth and spreading their backwards beliefs.
This is my biggest fear; IF he wins against the Dem's again he will go full speed ahead. It will not be gas lighting, he will be off the damn rails with no chance of turning back in four more years.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,720
Hey all,

This is not me being the OP. This is just a single, centralized place to discuss what's become a fairly hot-button topic here so we don't get a slew of threads, counter-threads, etc. etc.

In short, the positions we've seen outlined are (without endorsing any of them):

1. Voting is important, all the way up and all the way down the ticket, for reasons of power and politics. The Republicans represent an existential threat to the wellbeing of millions of vulnerable Americans in a way the Democrats simply do not, even a Democrat like Joe Biden. Biden still has a very long way down to go until he's half so bad as Trump. Ergo, it's your responsibility to vote for him, even if you find him incredibly objectionable (which some people disagree with in the first place), simply because the other guy is that much worse. Not doing so, in this model, is an expression of privilege, as a typically blue voter sitting out is, in our 2 party, system, effectively the same as a nonvoter switching sides.

2. A vote is a personal expression of conscience and morality based on an evaluation of each candidate individually. Joe Biden is being accused of sexual assault. He voted for the Iraq War, and he voted against bussing, and he voted for the crime bill, and many other things beside. His platform is insufficient to face the coming climate and economic crises of the coming decades. Trump being terrible is irrelevant, because Biden has made himself ineligible by default. Ergo, demanding that people vote for him is a blind expression of partisanship at best and a cruel act of violence at worst, as you force people hurt by Biden and people like Biden to lend their support.

3. Don't vote for Biden, but vote downballot. In this argument, voting is a political position, but it allows more for the understanding of a vote as a personal expression as well. By splitting this difference, it comes to a course of action: namely, Trump is unacceptable, but so is Biden, ergo, just vote for the downballot candidates in an effort to staunch the bleeding should Trump win a second term.

There are most likely more positions than this. If you feel like I've misconstrued one of the arguments, by all means, correct me; I'm doing my best to give a fair assessment to each.

Discussion guidelines are as follows:

Official Staff Communication
Remember that general hostility rules still apply. For example, do not accuse members, even without naming them, of "supporting a rapist" or discrediting the victim if they choose to vote for Biden. Likewise, do not accuse members of not caring about marginalized people if they choose to not vote. Avoid metacommentary.

People will get heated. This is a difficult topic for many reasons. We are allowing a degree of venting, but we will not be tolerating hostility, as outlined above. If you see somebody who you believe to be violating the staff post, do not respond, report. This can avoid escalating the situation to the point where we're forced to issue multiple bans, possibly including you.

What is not bannable are posts you disagree with or believe to be "shaming" in either direction that do not violate the above guidelines. Please, try to follow the rules. This is an important discussion worth having, but it's not possible if it just turns into a mudfight.

Furthermore, all these positions have one core assumption to them: that this will still come down to Trump vs. Biden. "Make Warren the nominee" and "Bernie got screwed" type digressions will be regarded as a derail and will be moderated as such.
I would like to request that for my argument that I was also talking about those who suffer from personal trauma (such as those who are victims of sexual assault or rape) should not have to be shamed for not wanting to vote for something so related to their trauma. While the last sentence does sort of fit, that was my main arguments in my old thread.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
17,665
Can we change the thread title to reflect that this issue is about voting for an alleged rapist and sexual assaulter? Thats what the issue is about, its not about the generalized merits of voting. Its a serious topic that shouldn't be called something that it isn't.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,834
Poodlestrike , can we please have a mod response in regards to downplaying and dismissing an accusation of rape against Joe Biden? I've seen this happen across threads and it's disgusting.
I agree. There needs to be a discussion on the way that's been handled. There needs to be a message that clarifies what's acceptable and what isn't because it's all over the place.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,858
Ontario
The confines of discussion imposed in this thread demonstrates what an utter mess the american party infrastructure is. Saying it's impossible for him to be left off the ticket is neither correct nor without historical precedent.

If this isn't acceptable within the confines of the thread then I'll just make one about structural problems on american governance and we can talk about it there
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,683
I just want people to have some fucking empathy for those of us who have been sexually abused and are faced with the decision of choosing between two sexual abusers for president. Just consider how that feels for a moment, before you post on this subject.
 

ViewtifulJC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,071
Vote shaming has never worked, like ever. It just makes people dig their heels in even more.

and yet I can’t help but feel that In a two party race, you either vote for Trump(BAD), abstain or throw away your vote to third party/harambe/etc which is effectively a vote for trump(also bad) or vote for Biden(least bad). I wish we lived in an alternate universe where everyone loved warren and Bernie or some other non-problematic progressive, but we don’t live in that world. Biden is the least bad option out of the three possible options. That’s really the long and short of it.
 

Majukun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,362
i'm not american so i have no horse in this race, but the only thing it's true for evry electoral system is that you can never really just don't vote. every non vote is a vote for what you already have.

so clog your nose and drink your poison.
 

SENPAIatLARGE

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,397
People discussing the strategical value of voting in a rapist is the perfect distillation of American politics
 

Moppeh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,204
Can we change the thread title to reflect that this issue is about voting for an alleged rapist and sexual assaulter? Thats what the issue is about, its not about the generalized merits of voting. Its a serious topic that shouldn't be called something that it isn't.
That's true. The title is way too vague and general. At the very least, it should be something like "On the Merits of Voting for Biden in 2020".

i'm not american so i have no horse in this race, but the only thing it's true for evry electoral system is that you can never really just don't vote. every non vote is a vote for what you already have.

so clog your nose and drink your poison.
As another non-American, your viewpoint still matters and you do have a horse in this race. America is the strongest, wealthiest country in the world with a vast amount of influence. Every country will be affected by this election. I'm sure you know that, I just don't see the value in downplaying your opinion. It matters!
 
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Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,013
This is my biggest fear; IF he wins against the Dem's again he will go full speed ahead. It will not be gas lighting, he will be off the damn rails with no chance of turning back in four more years.

I mean whew... Look at this guys recent Pardons for one.... I know theres a list 10 miles long. But just his recent pardons of war criminals and the like is just ... outrageous....

Nah. This dudes getting bushed. No way we are letting him have another term where he would be emboldened and have even LESS to lose.

I just want people to have some fucking empathy for those of us who have been sexually abused and are faced with the decision of choosing between two sexual abusers for president. Just consider how that feels for a moment, before you post on this subject.
You can have my empathy. You cannot have control of my vote. Nor can I have control of yours. I haven't seen anyone say that victims don't deserve empathy so I don't even know where that is coming from. If anything this thread is telling everyone to stop trying to dictate how someone else votes. I'm fine with that. If you want to sit it out do so, Im not going to give anyone any more stress over it.
 
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Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,959
Ann Arbor, MI
I'd vote for a dead corpse if it meant making sure RBG isn't replaced on the court by an alt-right conservative judge.

Voting to stop the alt-right takeover of the courts are stakes. Any other detail is just window dressing I think. I am voting Biden with zero reservations because stopping Trump is *that* important.
 

n00bs7ay3r

Member
Aug 21, 2018
1,098
Pretty fair and balanced OP!

Biden is a terrible human being and despite that, Trump is way worse.

If Biden wins, Americans need to organize and fight for what they believe. Biden's approach to healthcare, climate change, foreign policy and wealth inequality are fucking terrible and need to be challenged. Americans should also demand he step down, because by that point it will be 2021 and racist rapists shouldn't be in power anymore and shouldn't have been in the first place. Fuck that shit.
So people should elect him and then immediately demand that he step down? Why not demand he step down right now? The nomination is not his yet, he can excuse himself from the race in light of the recent allegations.

EDIT: I also would like to apologize for some of the hostile posts I made in some of the other threads. While I do always try to be level headed the news was new to me and I was very angry at what I perceived at people's attempts to downplay rape (I am a victim of sexual assault).
 
Jun 10, 2018
2,268
I just want people to have some fucking empathy for those of us who have been sexually abused and are faced with the decision of choosing between two sexual abusers for president. Just consider how that feels for a moment, before you post on this subject.
Exactly. It just leads to the affected being talked over and talked down to like they don't deserve a say in the matter.

It's angering and demoralizing.
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,324
I take position 1.

We are living in real time what happens when someone thinks voting for either party doesn't matter or one guy is "just as bad as the other". Biden is not even a quarter as bad as Trump.

Trump has ensured the federal government is now almost completely free of career people with the knowledge to do their jobs, replaced with morons and ass kissers, and The Covid-19 piss poor response is a direct consequence.

He has racists and wannabe Nazis as his advisors, the emboldened white supremacists is a consequence, less oversight of police brutality, and babies in cages and the removal of dreamers is a consequence. Not to mention the actual death of a protester. And civil rights? Voting rights? Gone with one more term.

He has extremely religious advisors and super conservative people in his cabinet and as advisors, two more highly objectionable SC nominees is a consequence, homophobic, transphobic polices and the emboldening of homophobic people is a consequence, the destruction of women's rights another consequence.

All that said, Biden is definitely not perfect or great, but on just the above things his administration will be infinitely better. I don't have the privilege to not vote for him when the alternative is a white supremacists, an extreme science denier and a monster.
 

Moppeh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,204
So people should elect him and then immediately demand that he step down? Why not demand he step down right now? The nomination is not his yet, he can excuse himself from the race in light of the recent allegations.
People can and should demand that he should leave the race now. Biden should not be on the ticket in November. I felt that strongly before this allegation and I believe it even more now. The post you are quoting was about if he were to win.

edit: I just saw your edit and I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to downplay the allegations toward Biden. I don't like Biden and I have no interest in shaming people into voting for him.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
6,557
I just want people to have some fucking empathy for those of us who have been sexually abused and are faced with the decision of choosing between two sexual abusers for president. Just consider how that feels for a moment, before you post on this subject.
Can I ask for sympathy when people threaten to defacto support Trump and his judges, screwing the life of my child for decades before you post on the subject?

Not to say your opinions are bad/ wrong/ stupid etc. Just asking for a bit of empathy when threats to my child's wellbeing are being bandied about.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,034
So people should elect him and then immediately demand that he step down? Why not demand he step down right now? The nomination is not his yet, he can excuse himself from the race in light of the recent allegations.

I'm going to go out on as limb and suggest that he refutes those allegations.
 

JaseC64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,355
Strong Island NY
Thank you. I was going to respond to the other thread but was locked.

I cant vote, I had 3 choices for the Dems. Warren 1st, Bernie 2nd and Joe 3ed. Sadly Americans have chosen Biden it seems.

Here is what I honestly want. People to vote and not "sit it out". I cant vote but live and work in the US. It's been hell the last 3 or so yrs. Please go out and vote!

Edit: Also remember that Justice seats are on the line once AGAIN. Sure we can all express our griviences but if Trump wins again, that wont matter. All of us will be worse off. Think of everyone that has been suffering these past years. It's not just you but lots of us will deal with the consequences of this election.
 

SoZetaSlow

Member
Sep 20, 2019
1,064
I'd vote for the re-animated corpse of Hitler if it meant making sure RBG isn't replaced on the court by an alt-right conservative judge.

Voting to stop the alt-right takeover of the courts are stakes. Any other detail is just window dressing I think. I am voting Biden with zero reservations because stopping Trump is *that* important.
I understand you're being hyperbolic but using Hitler as your example here is pretty yikes and also makes literally no sense considering the point you're trying to make?
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
17,665
I'd vote for the corpse of Hitler if it meant making sure RBG isn't replaced on the court by an alt-right conservative judge.

Voting to stop the alt-right takeover of the courts are stakes. Any other detail is just window dressing I think. I am voting Biden with zero reservations because stopping Trump is *that* important.
what the literal fuck?

you would vote for the person responsible for the largest mass genocide in history to protect the supreme court. What the fuck is wrong with you?
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,546
USA
I'd vote for the corpse of Hitler if it meant making sure RBG isn't replaced on the court by an alt-right conservative judge.

Voting to stop the alt-right takeover of the courts are stakes. Any other detail is just window dressing I think. I am voting Biden with zero reservations because stopping Trump is *that* important.
I really hope you're not serious

Also, holy shit at dismissing an allegation of rape like this. Shameful.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,720
I'll just repost my OP then:

Note: There are reasons to vote for Joe Biden due to our shitty election and I do not judge people for it.

Listen, I get that this election is very scary for many. Donald Trump has exposed the horrifying flaws of our government systems wide open and people are desperate to find some semblance of normalcy, but don't shame people into voting for him. Especially don't shame people by downplaying people's reluctance into voting for a rapist. I was planning on making this earlier because shaming people just doesn't work (it does the opposite really) but especially now, it's disgusting to shame people into voting for someone, especially if they are a victim of sexual assault. We have spent years lambasting the Republicans for "falling in line" even when the person was a serial sexual assaulter and rapist, we cannot shame others for not wanting to fall in line when its our side that is accused.

And lest we forget, this is what Joe Biden is being accused of




People shouldn't be made to feel unsafe on this website, yet when folks are bullying and shaming them for not wanting to vote for a rapist, that's exactly what happens! Questioning their character and accusing them of supporting something worse is disgusting! You don't know who is on the other side of that monitor. There are people who read this site that are victims of sexual assault and they have the right to abstain because of their personal trauma.

You want people to vote for Biden? Fine, there are plenty of reasons one could chose to vote for him. But don't mock others for deciding they don't want to vote for a rapist.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,834
I'd vote for the corpse of Hitler if it meant making sure RBG isn't replaced on the court by an alt-right conservative judge.

Voting to stop the alt-right takeover of the courts are stakes. Any other detail is just window dressing I think. I am voting Biden with zero reservations because stopping Trump is *that* important.
...you're saying you'd support Hitler?

This is where we're at folks.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
17,757
The point is making sure the supreme court doesn't swing fully alt-right is the most central struggle of our lives. Right now, this election. Stopping Trump at all costs.
Your comparison is disgusting and offensive to Jewish posters like me and other marginalized groups who suffered at the hands of the Nazis. Do better.
 
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