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Oct 25, 2017
11,963
So literally Trump but blue is still okay? Really?
What does that even mean? Blue but Trump? Will he appoint someone like RBG, Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor or are we getting another Kavanaugh? Is he going to support same sex marriage or push to get rid of it? Abortion? Gun Control? Etc. If they are on the right side of these issues I'll vote for Bloomberg, Cuomo, Clinton, Biden, I don't care.
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,822
Biden is MLK's white moderate from his Birmingham letter personified. For as much as we talk about how much of a mistake it was for Sanders to court Rogan's approval and how it targets trans people as victims for inevitable compromise in legislation, Biden is at best running as a counterrevolutionary to the revitalized dem socialist movement, and trying to motivate the vote in the face of these new allegations combined with his previous remarks about segregation and medicare, makes frankly most of the country strategic victims of compromise. I won't bother to reprint my comment that Biden checks most of the boxes of ur-fascism according to Eco (and that's why I think, say, Cheebo's remark about Hitler's corpse is particularly unsettling to me) but if people aren't willing to search for it I can repost it if people need it.

Malcolm X also had a lot to say on the merits of strategic voting. I'll let you read the whole essay here, but for the sake of brevity I think this point is particularly salient, especially in this current time of the precariat:
I love this quote if for nothing else than because it really stressed voting ISN'T and has NEVER been the be-all end-all of political activism.

So much of the push to vote for Biden regardlessly is born from an irrational conflation of voting being the the extent and defining trait of activism, when I would argue it is only the beginning.

In a longwinded way, I'm saying don't accuse vote abstainers for "sitting idly" when you don't know the breadth of their political endeavors. Just because their focus isn't tunnel-visioned on the executive branch doesn't mean they're sitting back and doing nothing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,963
Can we change the thread title to reflect that this issue is about voting for an alleged rapist and sexual assaulter? Thats what the issue is about, its not about the generalized merits of voting. Its a serious topic that shouldn't be called something that it isn't.
It was already about that, Trump is running for re-election.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I would say pointing out that this is getting no news coverage and thus won't effect the election has nothing to do with whether her story is true. She could be 100% telling the truth, and I assume she is because I am never going to question a woman coming forward.

But that doesn't change the lack of news coverage and whether it can effect the primary. Two separate points I would say.
No. What you've been doing over the course of multiple threads is repeating ad nauseam that it's not going to get picked up, implying that there is no credibility to her story, instead of offering any kind of empathy or support for someone who says she was raped. You also just said in this thread that "everything else" doesn't matter, as long as we vote Biden in. That is outright dismissing her allegation of rape, there is no other way to look at it.

It's disgusting and it should be called out.

Support accusers. Support victims. Your default shouldn't be finding ways to indirectly downplay the seriousness of her accusation.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
I love this quote if for nothing else than because it really stressed voting ISN'T and has NEVER been the be-all end-all of political activism.

So much of the push to vote for Biden regardlessly is born from an irrational conflation of voting being the the extent and defining trait of activism, when I would argue it is only the beginning.

In a longwinded way, I'm saying don't accuse vote abstainers for "sitting idly" when you don't know the breadth of their political endeavors. Just because their focus isn't tunnel-visioned on the executive branch doesn't mean they're sitting back and doing nothing.

YES! EXACTLY!!
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,835
Yeah, this thread title hugely downplays the real issue at hand. The mods are acting suspect.

I urge everyone to remember why this community was resettled here in the first place. We can't just sweep this issue under the rug. And that goes for everyone in this community, from top to bottom.
The topic of Biden being a rapist not being mentioned at all in the OP is very suspect.
 
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Poodlestrike

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
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Oct 25, 2017
13,489

Daingurse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,739
If Biden is the nominee, then I'll have no choice but to vote for him. I voted for Bernie in the AZ Primary, and my politics do not align with Biden's policies or record. This sexual assault/rape allegation is extremely concerning, and I can't fault anyone for not wanting to support or vote for Biden at this point. However, for me personally, Trump is too dangerous to remain in power. This is truly a shitty situation, but my priority above all else is getting Trump out of office. I'm voting D for president no matter who it is. Just wish it didn't have to be Biden . . .
 

Deleted member 60096

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Sep 20, 2019
1,295
What does that even mean? Blue but Trump? Will he appoint someone like RBG, Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor or are we getting another Kavanaugh? Is he going to support same sex marriage or push to get rid of it? Abortion? Gun Control? Etc. If they are on the right side of these issues I'll vote for Bloomberg, Cuomo, Clinton, Biden, I don't care.
Bloomberg is literally just a republican who changed the party he campaigns for now. He isn't on the right side of almost any issue
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
No. What you've been doing over the course of multiple threads is repeating ad nauseam that it's not going to get picked up, implying that there is no credibility to her story, instead of offering any kind of empathy or support for someone who says she was raped. You also just said in this thread that "everything else" doesn't matter, as long as we vote Biden in. That is outright dismissing her allegation of rape, there is no other way to look at it.

It's disgusting and it should be called out.

Support accusers. Support victims. Your default shouldn't be finding ways to indirectly downplay the seriousness of her accusation.
I mean is it not possible for one to both believe she is telling the truth and believe the fate of the world depends on voting for Biden to beat Trump?
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,963
Sorry, I can't. Maybe if I were in a swing state I could sully my vote with Biden's name but I just can't justify it personally and morally. More power to the rest of you.

And I know we're likely beyond this point, but Bernie is still in the race. Let your friends and family know that he's still an option so that we might avoid being forced to vote between two rapists.
I don't even know if we are going to have a convention this year.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
Yeah, this thread title hugely downplays the real issue at hand. The mods are acting suspect.

I urge everyone to remember why this community was resettled here in the first place. We can't just sweep this issue under the rug. And that goes for everyone in this community, from top to bottom.
Agreed, the thread feels inherently onesided, like it's trying to convince people to vote for him regardless. It's not the best look.
 

Deleted member 1238

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Oct 25, 2017
3,070
"I don't wanna hear any of you survivors of sexual assault who refuse to vote for a rapist complaining about the rapist who's in power."

Quite frankly, you can eat shit.
We'll all be eating shit when Trump gets to stack the Supreme Court with justices who won't help future survivors.
 
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Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
The merits are he's not Trump. Period. Get this madman out of the White House ASAP and scour his cronies from government. Don't pretend to care about anything or anyone in this country if this isn't your top priority. You've got to be deranged to look at the past three years and go "Yeah, I wanna risk four more years of this."

If nothing else, consider that we're looking at a conservative-leaning judiciary for the rest of our lives if we don't curtail this insanity.

Do we really want to allow the GOP to hold the entire country hostage with its extremist judges for decades to come? Think carefully about the stakes. What kind of US do you want to live in?
 
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Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
This is a multi-faceted issue that requires an approach beyond shaming; a lot of this will be repeated for the other thread but I think it warrants it.

Fact is, America is an inherently bigoted, power-hungry country by design, and that means the systems that we all navigate are also tacitly set up to support that goal. Minorities vote in lock-step for Democrats every four years for relatively little material gain in return for the effort, or even a "thank you for doing the job straight white people can't be bothered to do;" it's no wonder many don't care to participate, or even see participation as immoral. The country is rotten and has been since its inception, so what is a return to the status quo supposed to really mean to the disenfranchised who feel they have nothing to lose? Any remotely self-aware leftist cannot advocate for the systems that destroy the ones they claim to want to protect even in Democratic administrtions by saying that the problem is only bad actors. This is just dogma. Bad actors will always exist as per human nature, and we have no answer for them when they get the reins. At all.

Also, you cannot argue in 2020 that voting for Joe Biden is not full support, or even just a lack of prioritization, for Joe Biden's behavior. Ever since Trump decided to make that "Mexico is sending rapists" bit, we said that if you vote for Trump then you are supporting for everything he says, does, and believes, even if you didn't consciously vote for the bigotry and stupidity. And yes, it's easy and comforting to catch cowardly racists off guard like this, to force them into the uncomfortable position of having to admit to, inevitably, supporting racist power structures. But you can't now backtrack on this principle that a vote is full support now that your guy's on the chopping block (especially since it gives Trump voters an out, and fuck them). Minorities have long memories. We're going to remember this hypocrisy.

At the very least, we need honesty. Just like I wouldn't be able, and certainly never would have the gall to try, to tell a Middle Eastern family impacted by Obama's drone policies "don't blame me, I didn't like the drone policies!" I also won't in good conscious tell sexual assault victims I didn't support a rapist because it's uncomfortable. That's what happens when you vote. American politics are trash. That isn't a condemnation of the individual; it's just a simple matter of fact. Self-awareness and honesty to the vulnerable is what is needed. And I think, going from the view that our systems in place are counter intuitive to basic human dignity, we should start working on political actions that seek to counteract that, instead of just hoping our problems will go away this November.
 

Deleted member 18324

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Oct 27, 2017
678
I would even vote for Bloomberg or Tulsi Gabbard if they were the Democratic nominee, no convincing needed.
This post is a great example of why the Democratic party will happily put up the likes of Biden for nomination - much of their base is ultimately cowed and servile because they have accepted being hostages to the whims of a party leadership with an awful electoral record
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Yeah, just saw that. Ah well, added it anyway.

Tbh, I think it's pretty funny. Tho I obviously don't speak for all Jews.

It was pretty clear that Cheebo's post was intended to be hyperbolic. Nobody's actually voting for literal Adolf Hitler.
Haha are you fucking serious right now?

Yeah, this thread title hugely downplays the real issue at hand. The mods are acting suspect.

I urge everyone to remember why this community was resettled here in the first place. We can't just sweep this issue under the rug. And that goes for everyone in this community, from top to bottom.
I also want to bring attention this is a pattern with Biden. I made several threads about him where the titles were changed without my permission and only changed back after I reached out about it. We shouldn't be downplaying that this topic is FIRST and FOREMOST about rape and sexual assault. The title here does not reflect that at all.
 

jakomocha

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,572
California
We'll it's not just Biden voters and DNC, it's pathetic younger voters didn't show up even though there's a lot in stake. DNC is going to continue to cater to moderates cuz those voters are the ones that show up sadly. Truly sucks
Agreed...

But just like I hold younger voters accountable for not turning out to vote, I hold moderate voters accountable for their shitty views and votes
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I mean is it not possible for on to both believe she is telling the truth and believe the fate of the world depends on voting for Biden to beat Trump?
You're not listening. I've been saying over and over that defaulting to downplaying the seriousness of her allegations (by repeating over and over that it's not on the news because it's not seen as credible) instead of offering support. Here's an example:
Voting to stop the alt-right takeover of the courts are stakes. Any other detail is just window dressing I think. I am voting Biden with zero reservations because stopping Trump is *that* important.
You're describing an accusation of rape as window dressing. Comments like these are why victims don't come forward. It's an outright dismissal.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,963
Bloomberg is literally just a republican who changed the party he campaigns for now. He isn't on the right side of almost any issue
That just isn't true, specifically on gun control, access to abortion, same-sex marriage, and immigration. Is he Bernie Sanders, no; but he isn't Trump just in a different color. That is disingenuous.
 

iareharSon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,939
This post is a great example of why the Democratic party will happily put up the likes of Biden for nomination - much of their base is ultimately cowed and servile because they have accepted being hostages to the whims of a party leadership with an awful electoral record.

If you want to consider people being empathetic to the plight of their fellow compatriots by not wanting someone whose more likely to strip away fundamental rights for decades as cowed and servile, then be my guest I suppose.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,753
You're describing an accusation of rape as window dressing.
I was talking about policy differences about people demanding progressive not a moderate being window dressing in comparison to the courts though? That is why I opened with the courts.

My main concern is people staying home because they feel he is too "moderate". And I feel the importance of courts show the difference between moderates and progressives is mere window dressing in comparison.
 

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
Ask yourself what's the most good for the most amount of people your vote can do. We know how bad Trump in power is and can be. We know how his policies are pretty much the opposite of what we want. We know Biden's policies, while not as left leaning as we'd like from Bernie or Warren, would be a huge improvement, and that would flow from the top down through his entire cabinet.

what is the most good/least bad you can do this November if you have the legal ability to vote.

and yeah this binary system sucks. By all means, don't let this be the alpha and omega of your political activism? Vote locally, get involved in your communities, vote in non election years, tell your families and friends and guard them with knowledge, teach your kids the importance of your values, I mean get active. Do all the small things that led to big things, but we cannot sit on the sidelines and ignore the biggest thing when the opportunity presents itself.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,312
America
I always, always, always vote for the lesser evil.

I don't see how I could look at myself in the mirror otherwise. These days, not doing the bare minimum of voting for Trump's opponent means implicitly helping him cage children and oppress minorities and I'm definitely not ok with that. Would YOU be? If the president was promising to break both your legs and your best friend voted for him because the economy, would he still be your best friend? Yeah...I don't think so.

And don't even get me started on global warming...

Frankly, it's not that hard to vote for the lesser evil. I would really appreciate it if everybody just embraced that maxim. Like I quoted earlier today:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Don't let evil triumph. I beg of you.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Anyone not voting should be embarrassed with themselves and it is a vote that you are okay with trump being president. Biden sucks but he's way better than trump and would be a decent president.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I was talking about policy differences about people demanding progressive not a moderate being window dressing in comparison to the courts though? That is why I opened with the courts.
You literally said "any other detail". And that there are zero reservations to be had in this decision making process.

It's a dismissal, full stop.
 

CrocM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,587
We shouldn't be downplaying that this topic is FIRST and FOREMOST about rape and sexual assault. The title here does not reflect that at all.

That's because that isn't just what this about. If that was it, we wouldn't even need a discussion. This is about the future of the USA going forward, because right now it seems that this man is locked into being the nominee against Trump. And Trump winning comes with all sorts of moral consequences you need to weigh.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I always, always, always vote for the lesser evil.

I don't see how I could look at myself in the mirror otherwise. These days, not doing the bare minimum of voting for Trump's opponent means implicitly helping him cage children and oppress minorities and I'm definitely not ok with that. Would YOU be? If the president was promising to break both your legs and your best friend voted for him because the economy, would he still be your best friend? Yeah...I don't think so.

And don't even get me started on global warming...

Frankly, it's not that hard to vote for the lesser evil. I would really appreciate it if everybody just embraced that maxim. Like I quoted earlier today:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Don't let evil triumph. I beg of you.
Anyone not voting should be embarrassed with themselves and it is a vote that you are okay with trump being president. Biden sucks but he's way better than trump and would be a decent president.

I'm sorry those who are traumatized by sexual assault and rape do not wish to relive their experiences. You do not get to say "voting for the lesser evil is easy" to victims. You just. fucking. don't.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,753
You literally said "any other detail". And that there are zero reservations to be had in this decision making process.

It's a dismissal, full stop.
I said I had zero reservations because I feel courts are that vital, I can't speak for anyone else. I believe everyone who has come forward, I hate when Biden says racist shit. But the courts man, I'd walk over coal to vote Biden or anyone else because of that.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
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Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Donald Trump didn't rise to power in a vacuum and the GOP isn't the only political party that has engaged in systemic social and economic oppression, not to mention fully benefited from a corrupt duopoly which foists a binary decision upon the voters.

Trump is the natural coalescence of both parties and their respective failures, even if the Democratic Party is the 'lesser of two evils.' Our last Democratic President – a man who is treated with hallowed, almost sacrosanct respect within the Party – was a middling leader whose own reign is largely defined by the continued proliferation of wealth inequality, a fealty to the continued corporate sponsorship of government and legislation, and foreign policy that includes an exponential increase in illegal drone strikes that were not only inhuman and legitimate war crimes but were grounds for impeachment.

The temerity some of you possess to come in here and drop terms like 'privilege' and attempt to lecture anyone else on the edicts and pitfalls of morality and conscience astound me. I've been on this forum long enough to know many of you aren't even remotely progressive; you feign and howl over identity politics but have blinders on in regards to your establishment heroes even when they kill innocents overseas and add to the stranglehold big business has on the very governance of this nation. You're fucking pretenders at best, evidenced by your pie-in-the-sky anti-progressive vomitus you've been evacuating for the last four years.

And now, even your identity politics falter as your rush to defend the indefensible, using the same talking points as the GOP to insulate a known predatory scumbag or hide behind your support form him citing pragmatism.

The irony is that I fully intend to vote for Biden given that Trump is a genuine existential threat to the very fabric of our republic but nobody has the right nor occupies the moral high ground to come in here and point fingers, shame or otherwise try and cajole people who are rightfully fed the fuck up with both parties being absolute and utter shit.

And lastly here's a nasty truth: those who abstain because they will not compromise their integrity or morality are not to blame if Trump wins come November. There are decades of malfeasance and corruption within the Democratic Party that got Trump elected in 2016 and may very well get him elected again in 2020 and this constant scapegoating of the progressive Left is fucking over.

If Trump wins, it's because – once again – the Democrats opted to run a shit stain candidate with a mausoleum-sized closet filled with skeletons.
 

louiedog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,264
Trump has been accused of rape and admitted to sexual assault.

Biden has been accused of rape.

We're literally in a place where any action or inaction you take leads to an accused rapist being in office. It's pretty fucked up.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
You're not listening. I've been saying over and over that defaulting to downplaying the seriousness of her allegations (by repeating over and over that it's not on the news because it's not seen as credible) instead of offering support. Here's an example:

You're describing an accusation of rape as window dressing. Comments like these are why victims don't come forward. It's an outright dismissal.
Hold him to account after the election, once we've averted the disaster of another four years of a narcisstic wannabe dictator. It's pretty simple.
 

n00bs7ay3r

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Aug 21, 2018
1,159
I am firmly in camp #1. My position hasn't changed, I felt that way even when Bloomberg was being considered, as repugnant and loathsome as I think he is. Both are rapists but Trump will always be worse and do more damage in the short and the long run. We have seen ample evidence of this over the last years. His administration will always be more harmful to everyone.

It's to remove Trump, but also everything else about his administration.

- SCOTUS, most of all. Kavanaugh was a disaster, losing RGB would be even worse.
- But also removing all his cronies like Betsy Devos, Jared Kushner, etc.
- Climate change
- Not having someone who pardons monsters like Joe Arpaio.
- Muslim ban, military transgender ban, Charlottesville, children in cages, mishandling of covid-19, the list just goes on fucking forever.

Elections have consequences. Please, America. Avoid the mistakes of 2016.


Pretty much. Reality sucks.


Good point.

And what happens when American democrats all rally behind Biden and Trump wins anyway? You will have done irreparable damage to the Democratic party and gained absolutely nothing. You will be handing the right ammunition to use against the left for years to come (you can't claim the moral high ground when you also refused to condemn a sexually abusive candidate). You could potentially not only be helping Trump win this election but you might be helping to elect his successor who might be a lot smarter and therefore a lot more dangerous than Trump could ever be.

If you stand up now, for what is morally right, you are establishing that the moral core of the democratic party is what defines the party. You are sending the message to the DNC that they must elect someone with moral integrity to lead the party or they will not win. You are potentially helping to ensure that the next time around the democrats will actually field an acceptable candidate who can actually win against whoever is in line after Trump.

The point is, you don't know what the consequences of this election will be. You can only do what you think is right based off what you predict might happen. The future is not known and there are plenty of ways it can unfold depending on how this election turns out.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I said I had zero reservations because I feel courts are that vital, I can't speak for anyone else.
Yeah, you're dismissing an accusation of rape in the content of your posts (not talking about the act of voting). You. I'm not talking about other people.
Hold him to account after the election, once we've averted the disaster of another four years of a narccistic wannabe dictator. It's pretty simple.
I'm not talking about the vote itself. I'm talking about rhetoric. Also nah, let's hold him to account now and not when it's politically convenient.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
I'm sorry those who are traumatized by sexual assault and rape do not wish to relive their experiences. You do not get to say "voting for the lesser evil is easy" to victims. You just. fucking. don't.
You don't pretend that it's ok for trump being re-elected but by not voting that's what your okay with and that's on you. I don't like Biden at all but he's the best shot you have at stopping trump who is pure evil and will do way more damage than anyone else.
 

Tragicomedy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,310
We don't live in an ideal world. It's going to be a relatively awful situation when your choice is between two messed up individuals, both senile, both likely to have harassed, assaulted, or raped women.

One of those men will win and be our president. One of them will nominate Supreme Court justices.

We've seen what one of those men will continue to do for four more years: break the law, endanger women and immigrants, abolish abortion forever, cut safety nets for the poor, try to scrap healthcare, sell out our nation for political and economic favors, turn our school system into even more of a profit racket, and diminish our status in the world even more.

The other will do the opposite of many, if not all of those things. I'm voting Biden. Or any Democratic nominee, for that matter.
 

Deleted member 18324

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Oct 27, 2017
678
If you want to consider people being empathetic to the plight of their fellow compatriots by not wanting someone whose more likely to strip away fundamental rights for decades as cowed and servile, then be my guest I suppose.

I too love to signal my empathy by blindly voting D to get a rapist into high office. One who had his hands all over legislation that harmed the people you think voting Democrat is "protecting"
 
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