On Voting or Not Voting for Biden in Light of the Sexual Assault Allegations |OT| Discussion Guidelines in OP

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muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
13,116
a sunken pirate ship
This is true, but you do understand that RBG is 87 years old. She is not likely to live much longer after November. The SCOTUS is already 5-4 conservative, would you rather it being 6-3 by sometime next year?
I'm not convinced (if they're voting along partisan lines, which I would expect) that this numeric distinction matters as much as you say it does. They have the majority either way.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,953
Ann Arbor, MI
I'm not convinced (if they're voting along partisan lines, which I would expect) that this numeric distinction matters as much as you say it does. They have the majority either way.
SC is a lifetime appointment so replacing RBG with a 50 year old alt-righter means we have another 35 years with a SC seat voting alt-right. So even if the next person to croak is a conservative like Thomas it wouldn't matter because RBG got replaced with a young MAGA head.
 

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,902
Don't blame me I voted for Bernie.
I voted Bernie too and will hit that Biden button as fast as I can if he's the democratic nominee come November. I'm in Texas, the very slim chance that this state turns purple is just too appealing not to. I understand if you're in a deep blue state obtaining to vote for him, but I don't think any of us in a red state have that privilege.

I don't want to see the supreme court get even worse than it is, and I'd hope that Biden would be a one term president so that in 4 years we can hit the reset button again. Maybe a down ballot candidate this time around gets enough national attention in the next 4 years that when they run, we don't have to worry about all of this again.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
12,991
Let me reiterate one more time that the "put migrant children in cages" practice began during the Obama/Biden administration. He is entirely culpable for that. Trump expanded the program, but the program, from its beginning, was about putting migrants in cages and often lead to the separation of children from their parents. Do not whitewash this.
Every single solitary time this gets brought up it's a disingenuous false equivalency. Do you even know the circumstances that led to the incident where "kids in cages" happened under Obama? Cause it isn't because of family separation, it's because of a lack of ability to deal with a bunch of unaccompanied children that came in all at once. To be clearer: they were children who were not with their parents. The way things were set up, they could either put them in the cages for a couple weeks while HHS got things in order or drop them in the middle of American city without their parents and say "good fucking luck".

Was it horrible that we didn't have a better way to deal with that? Yes. Is that anywhere near the same moral plane as Trump's concentration camps? Fuck no.
 

ryseing

Bought courtside tickets just to read a book.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,032
North Carolina
I'm not convinced (if they're voting along partisan lines, which I would expect) that this numeric distinction matters as much as you say it does. They have the majority either way.
It does matter since Roberts has been the swing on quite a few things. He won't be the deciding voice to repeal Roe, for example. If it's a 6-3 majority though, he doesn't need to be since there will be five other conservatives who will.

Furthermore, RBG isn't the only one who is due for retirement soon. Breyer is as well (81). Whoever is in office the next four years will get two picks. 7-2 conservative supermajority for at least the next 20 years is a scary, scary thing.
 
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spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,988
Every single solitary time this gets brought up it's a disingenuous false equivalency. Do you even know the circumstances that led to the incident where "kids in cages" happened under Obama? Cause it isn't because of family separation, it's because of a lack of ability to deal with a bunch of unaccompanied children that came in all at once. To be clearer: they were children who were not with their parents. The way things were set up, they could either put them in the cages for a couple weeks while HHS got things in order or drop them in the middle of American city without their parents and say "good fucking luck".

Was it horrible that we didn't have a better way to deal with that? Yes. Is that anywhere near the same moral plane as Trump's concentration camps? Fuck no.
I did say Trump's program is definitely worse, but "we wanted to put migrant families in cages, not separate the children" being justifiable is a nuclear take. foh
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
17,740
Every single solitary time this gets brought up it's a disingenuous false equivalency. Do you even know the circumstances that led to the incident where "kids in cages" happened under Obama? Cause it isn't because of family separation, it's because of a lack of ability to deal with a bunch of unaccompanied children that came in all at once. To be clearer: they were children who were not with their parents. The way things were set up, they could either put them in the cages for a couple weeks while HHS got things in order or drop them in the middle of American city without their parents and say "good fucking luck".

Was it horrible that we didn't have a better way to deal with that? Yes. Is that anywhere near the same moral plane as Trump's concentration camps? Fuck no.
Let's all defend the administration that openly bragged about how many deportations they had.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
12,991
I did say Trump's program is definitely worse, but "we wanted to put migrant families in cages, not separate the children" being justifiable is a nuclear take. foh
No, they were not trying to reunite their families in fucking cages. They were trying to find their families with HHS to find homes for them or reunite them with their families. You have no idea about the incident you're talking about. The cages were otherwise unused.

Let's all defend the administration that openly bragged about how many deportations they had.
False equivalencies abound. Obama wasn't good about deportations, but the reason they had so many was because of the way deportations were reported changed. The reason they bragged about it was for the votes, as disgusting as that is. On the other hand you had DACA under Obama and now...?
 

TheIlliterati

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,604
Using this logic, an abstain or third party vote in this election is.... also a vote for Biden. However, a vote in this system cannot be for two people for the same position. You can only vote FOR someone, you cannot vote AGAINST someone, not effectively in the presidential election anyway. You'd need something like preferential voting to do that, or another complete restructure of the system. Which, uh, definitely isn't happening by November if Biden cinches the nom, both due to logistics and because both Trump and Biden benefit from the current system.

Full disclosure, I bought into that line of thought in 2016. After Bernie dropped, I panicked. I voted Hillary, warts and all, because "she's better than Trump". It didn't work. We didn't get her. We lost the Supreme Court to the alt-right for ten to twenty years for our trouble. It's clear as day the system doesn't work with "I'm voting against this person" in mind, but "I'm voting for this person".

Even that aside, I've seen Biden's record. I'm pansexual. I am neurodivergent- I have general anxiety disorder, depression, and quite possibly (because I was given medication for it but my doctor refused to confirm and just kept asking "is it helping" and I'm unable to seek out a doctor currently) ADHD. I am marginalized by society. And, frankly, as a marginalized person who has listened to the opinions of many marginalized people who I don't share the exact same marginalization with- women, people of color, trans people, and disabled and differently abled individuals- nothing Biden wants to do is better than what Trump would be able to achieve IF we vote downballot. So between a rapist and a rapist, I'm not going to roll my dice with the rapist who some people think might do better in spite of his record. So, either way, it makes no sense for me to vote for him, especially with how I want to show my solidarity with victims AND not enable a rapist in hiding his crimes.

The only flaw in my logic, I guess, is assuming people will not show up at all rather than, you know, turning out to vote downballot. Which is possible. But I'm against that, specifically and loudly against that. Voting is important. But it's also important to NOT empower rapists.

Like that should be the biggest takeaway - a vote for someone is not a vote against someone else, but a vote to empower them. A vote for Biden empowers him. He is a rapist. You are empowering a rapist by voting for him.
Thanks, I appreciate reading your explanation.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,988
No, they were not trying to reunite their families in fucking cages. They were trying to find their families with HHS to find homes for them or reunite them with their families. You have no idea about the incident you're talking about. The cages were otherwise unused.


False equivalencies abound. Obama wasn't good about deportations, but the reason they had so many was because of the way deportations were reported changed. The reason they bragged about it was for the votes, as disgusting as that is.
Here is the program you are defending:


CBP facilities have long faced criticism for their abysmal conditions. A lawsuit filed in 2015 during Obama’s presidency challenged the situation at these “hieleras,” or “iceboxes,” alleging “appalling conditions” including people held in “freezing, overcrowded, and filthy cells for extended periods of time, no access to beds, soap, showers, adequate meals and water, medical care, and lawyers in violation of constitutional standards and Border Patrol’s own policies.”

Many of the photos showing the squalid conditions inside the detention centers were obtained during this lawsuit, which is still ongoing. It is hard to say whether the terrible conditions in CBP facilities currently are “worse” than they were under Obama, but what seems to be clear is that a focus on detaining people—including children—is forcing more people to spend longer amounts of time inside CBP facilities, which would likely cause a deterioration of the already-appalling conditions.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
256
Let me reiterate one more time that the "put migrant children in cages" practice began during the Obama/Biden administration. He is entirely culpable for that. Trump expanded the program, but the program, from its beginning, was about putting migrants in cages and often lead to the separation of children from their parents. Do not whitewash this.
I listed a number of issues with Trump, putting migrant children in cages is one of too many issues to list. I'm not excusing Obama admin on the issue of migration, but that wasn't the main point of my post. My point is that in a 2 party system, Biden is a piece of shit, but Trump is colossally much worse. Stating that one is just marginally less worse is a bad faith argument in the grand scheme of things.

I'm not convinced (if they're voting along partisan lines, which I would expect) that this numeric distinction matters as much as you say it does. They have the majority either way.
The erosion of abortion rights are already underway in many R held states. But, with the 5-4 split in favor of conservatives, Roe v Wade is not likely to be overturned because Roberts is not likely to vote in favor of it. In a 6-3 conservative court, this will almost guaranteed to happen. There are many other issues that will be voted down partisan lines, but imagine some issues like abortion rights and womens' right to their bodies if abortion is banned in every state in the country. There are likely many other issues that Roberts can swing in favor of progressives. But, give them a 6-3 conservative court, all bets are off.
 

Book One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,200
Every single solitary time this gets brought up it's a disingenuous false equivalency. Do you even know the circumstances that led to the incident where "kids in cages" happened under Obama? Cause it isn't because of family separation, it's because of a lack of ability to deal with a bunch of unaccompanied children that came in all at once. To be clearer: they were children who were not with their parents. The way things were set up, they could either put them in the cages for a couple weeks while HHS got things in order or drop them in the middle of American city without their parents and say "good fucking luck".

Was it horrible that we didn't have a better way to deal with that? Yes. Is that anywhere near the same moral plane as Trump's concentration camps? Fuck no.
The ‘but Obama’ attempts to equate the two has been a heavy right wing tactic since family separation started.

truth is our immigration policies have been shit for a long time. Trump just took it to a new cruelty level
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
12,991
Here is the program you are defending:

Am I defending the immigrant detention centers under Obama? No. I was specifically talking about the false equivalence of using the fact that things were not good under Obama to say that Trump is just as well or only slightly worse.
 

Agar25

Member
Apr 12, 2018
7,369
The OP states this:



It isn't asking anyone to do anything, it simply attempts to summarise the different positions within the community, and allows members to state their own positions as a general discussion OT with some guidelines.

There are sexual assault survivors like myself on the team, and I've had to moderate threads on this issue despite it being triggering for myself. It's upsetting to see insinuations that the team are trying to cape for Biden. Over the past 24 hours we've somehow been accused of being biased against people both for and against voting for Biden. The OP states that we're open to suggestions if you feel any of the points are not accurately summarised.

I'd also like to ask people to stay on topic, and not bring in cross-forum drama. There are very important discussions to be had here, so the thread should stay on topic. There are a lot of reports, and we'll be reviewing them all.
All your effort is very appreciated, I honestly type out so much stuff and then delete it because this topic over the last couple days has been a complete maelstrom.

I will say though in the future think about stuff like approving a mod backed thread title of “ On the merits of voting for Joe Biden” vs. what it now is. It just came off really poorly, especially in light of the recent allegations. Well done changing it though.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
17,740
The ‘but Obama’ attempts to equate the two has been a heavy right wing tactic since family separation started.

truth is our immigration policies have been shit for a long time. Trump just took it to a new cruelty level
Stop deflecting criticisms of the Democrats as being right-wing.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,988
Am I defending the immigrant detention centers under Obama? No. I was specifically talking about the false equivalence of using the fact that things were not good under Obama to say that Trump is just as well or only slightly worse.
I did not imply that. My point was that the poster said this was a Trump admin policy, and I pointed out that it was actually a Biden admin policy.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
13,116
a sunken pirate ship
Here is the program you are defending:

Yeah. You know what happened a lot in those CBP facilities during the Obama administration? Sexual assault.


I don't want to get too deep into the weeds on justice appointments but Supreme Court size is a matter of act of congress and not a constitutional requirement. Congress could (in theory) pass legislation allowing for significant increase in the number of justices just like any other bill. Justices could be impeached. There are a lot of options there. If you believe that the damage is done to the point where the nation will never recover I'm going to remind you all of something I believe Chikor said elsewhere -- if you believe this, why aren't you a revolutionary?
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,324
You can abstain from voting for rapist Joe Biden and still vote down-ballot to give the Democrats the ability to hold Donald Trump accountable.

This only serves to make people feel better. Democrats won't get a veto proof majority so even if in this scemario Dems win the Senate what then? Nothing happens.

Joe Biden was not my first choice, or second or third. You can find recent posts of mine railing against him hard. But the CORE of the democratic party wants him and so he will win.

Which for me makes my choice now: vote for a guy who is accused of rape, but will be there to approve judges and enact legislation passed by the house and be kept in check by a democratic Congress and cabinet.

Or not vote and let Trump win. I feel like maybe people forgot what Donald Trump did and is actively doing.

A man who did rape someone (and assaulted tons other) but who also happens to be a white supremacists and enlmboldened them/ made some his fucking advisors and had them marching with torches and murdering someone, laughed as Puerto Rico was almost destroyed by a hurricane, thinks migrant kids belong in cages and wants to send millions more back, completely strip healthcare from those on need, caused the shit response to covid 19 and thus is indirectly responsible for those deaths, thinks police should be able to do anything they want to anyone with no repercussions at all!! And thinks racism doesn't exist for black people and is actually now against WHITE people?

For me one is a real life threat to me, my kids, my community, the U.S. and the world.

The other isn't. And I don't have the privilege or right to do anything but ensure Trump doesn't win. It's as simple as that for me.
 

Bing147

Member
Jun 13, 2018
162
I've really never understood the opposition to voting for the lesser of two evils. I feel it is the responsibility of every person to stop the greatest evil they can. If you believe that Donald Trump is worse than Biden, unless you have another plan that will stop Donald Trump, you should vote for Biden. Nothing about doing so stops you from protesting him later, from demanding he step down, from being against what he represents. We should always seek to stop the greatest possible evil, to make the world as good as it can be in any given moment, even if that still kind of sucks. That's almost always the very best we can possibly do. Is the system messed up? Absolutely, but until you have a plan that can realistically replace it you have to do the best you can within it. To not do so is a sign of privilege in my book.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,988
But it's not the same policy. Which means you're making a false equivalence.
Which goes back to my point of "sorry, Obama/Biden's policy of putting migrants in filthy cages is definitely better than Trump's policy of continuing that and separating families more aggressively on top of it" being a garbage argument. If that technicality is your line of defense, you've already lost.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
256
It does matter since Roberts has been the swing on quite a few things. He won't be the deciding voice to repeal Roe, for example. If it's a 6-3 majority though, he doesn't need to be since there will be five other conservatives who will.

Furthermore, RBG isn't the only one who is due for retirement soon. Kennedy is as well. Whoever is in office the next four years will get two picks. 7-2 conservative supermajority for at least the next 20 years is a scary, scary thing.
Not sure if you meant to say Kennedy, he retired in 2018 and fucking Kavanaugh took his spot.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
17,740
Yeah that’s not what I did. I can see your intellectually dishonest posts quite clearly. If you don’t have an interest in actual substance of a discussion, please don’t waste my time.
Is there a democratically approved checklist needed to fill out to criticize the Obama administration?
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,325
....

The only flaw in my logic, I guess, is assuming people will not show up at all rather than, you know, turning out to vote downballot. Which is possible. But I'm against that, specifically and loudly against that. Voting is important. But it's also important to NOT empower rapists.

Like that should be the biggest takeaway - a vote for someone is not a vote against someone else, but a vote to empower them. A vote for Biden empowers him. He is a rapist. You are empowering a rapist by voting for him.
Thank you so much for this post. It always boggles my mind how people ignore the fact that at the end of the day, voting "against" someone still means taking time out of your day to put your seal of approval next to the name of someone.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,000
I don't care at all about Biden. Elect him and then immediately impeach/remove him in favor of his VP for all I care (Warren, hopefully). The real issue is we know Trump is a disaster. He is getting and will continue to get people killed, whether it be for not taking COVID19 seriously enough or bombing Iran. And that's in addition to increasing hate crimes on basically every minority group with his rhetoric.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
13,116
a sunken pirate ship
Yeah that’s not what I did. I can see your intellectually dishonest posts quite clearly. If you don’t have an interest in actual substance of a discussion, please don’t waste my time.
Look. What people are saying in this thread is that the lesser of two evils is still evil. The idea that people are being intellectually dishonest in their act of expressing opinions on what Biden has shown after a long career in politics are his values? That's a claim that's without merit. We're not the ones wasting your time.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
12,991
Which goes back to my point of "sorry, Obama/Biden's policy of putting migrants in filthy cages is definitely better than Trump's policy of continuing that and separating families more aggressively on top of it" being a garbage argument. If that technicality is your line of defense, you've already lost.
The framing itself is bullshit. Your point, as outlined, is fundamentally that it doesn't matter because they're both bad without any thought to the orders of magnitude difference in how bad it is. The entire purpose of your point is to basically say that "Well, Biden wouldn't acccccccccccccttttttttttttttuuuuuuuuuuuuallllllllllyyyyyy be good on immigration" when that isn't the point being made. The point being made is that even a reset to Obama era immigration enforcement would be far better than concentration camps that are purpose built, as stated by our good friend Stephen Miller, to make immigrants suffer. The point being made is that a reinstatement of DACA would be far better than the alternative. Do you disagree?

Honestly, the problem is that you seem to approach the entire argument as if you're arguing with people who like Biden.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
926
I have no idea what's possible. I already voted for Sanders so I can't go in any further, my State isn't in play anymore.

I don't know what the DNC can do behind the scenes.

Barring us somehow getting a new nominee I will begrudgingly vote for him and I'll own and accept anyone's criticism for that. That's fair. Also won't pressure anyone into voting for him.

All I can really say is damn the DNC for putting us in this position. If there's no legal mechanism for preventing someone from running for your parties' nomination you should at least have a few staffers spun off and insulated from above fuckery tasked with publicizing shit like this in advance.

Though I don't know if the claim is true enough with Biden's past behaviour I find it easy to believe, it'd be weirder if someone so grabby hasn't raped someone so I can't be surprised if he did it, let alone that there's allegations he did it. More normal people should have seen this as a real possibility.
 

Book One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,200
Look. What people are saying in this thread is that the lesser of two evils is still evil. The idea that people are being intellectually dishonest that people are expressing opinions on Biden has shown after a long career in politics what his values are is without merit. We're not the ones wasting your time.
Immigration policies being shit means that they were shit during Obama. Trump pushes it to a whole new level of cruelty, weaponizing that cruelty at a whole new level. That matters. Hand waving away to make that equivalency matters and is intellectually dishonest....which is exactly the reason Trump and his cronies were screaming it from the rooftops. If you are using the same tactics as trump...then yeah, I consider that a waste of my time.
 

cartographer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
942
I’m going to vote for the most likely option to defeat Trump and his administration. That's going to be the Dem nominee. I'd be shocked if that wasn't Biden.

Frankly, this is straightforward choice for me. I've compromised my morals to some extent in every presidential election there's been since I've been eligible to vote. Even not considering the specific issue about the recent account of sexual assault and rape, every potential choice I had for the 2020 general election, no matter who the Dem nominee turned out to be, would involve a similar compromise to some extent. Maybe I'm desensitized. This is the only political reality I've known. Our country is rotting and has been since our founding fathers were proclaiming liberty for all people but not really all people.

While this doesn't change my overall decision, sexual assault and rape Is a particularly sensitive subject for me. How a section of members on this forum have reacted to this most recent case is not surprising . It's a reflection of the culture here and of our overall culture. I honestly believe staff is doing their best to fix this. But they can't do it by themselves. It requires users to step up.

That means making your argument without being dismissive to people who rightly have deeply held reservations about what crossing this particular boundary means. That is enforcing rape culture in it's own way. There's no escaping that. My hope is that people go along with me and choose to unseat Trump, but I get why rape and sexual assault in particular either complicates things for people or presents a road block.

In my mind, the sobering reality is that you can be elected president while being credibly accused of rape. I don't think Republican and Democratic voters are different enough on that particular issue to make it a insurmountable barrier. I think the difference is in media pressure, but that's not the people voting. I think it hurts Biden. I think it changes some minds. I don't think it destroys Biden. That's our country.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,032
If you asked me 3 months ago I woulda said I'm just voting down ballot.

But with those coronavirus shit going on, I think it's imperative that we get Trump out of office, all costs. He's already written the death certificates of countless Americans and people worldwide with his incompetent brand of evil and I can't let him or any other Republican remain in office.

If Biden wins the nomination, hopefully we can quickly get him to resign or be removed from office or something. But trump's a racist, rapist, bioterrorist.

Until then I hope we can select the better nominee.
 

BrucCLea13k87

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,614
Anybody but Trump. Our country is on fire and thousands will die bc of his ineptitude.

I’ll wait until he’s proven guilty in a court of law to cast my judgement.
 

Midee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
154
CA
I gotta wonder why first reaction here is "welp gotta vote for Biden then I guess, lesser of two evils lol" and not "Holy shit, we'd better do everything we can to get Biden the fuck out now somehow, like raise a stink online and pummel the DNC until they can't ignore it."

Like this is unreal.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,988
The framing itself is bullshit. Your point, as outlined, is fundamentally that it doesn't matter because they're both bad without any thought to the orders of magnitude difference in how bad it is. The entire purpose of your point is to basically say that "Well, Biden wouldn't acccccccccccccttttttttttttttuuuuuuuuuuuuallllllllllyyyyyy be good on immigration" when that isn't the point being made. The point being made is that even a reset to Obama era immigration enforcement would be far better than concentration camps that are purpose built, as stated by our good friend Stephen Miller, to make immigrants suffer. The point being made is that a reinstatement of DACA would be far better than the alternative. Do you disagree?

Honestly, the problem is that you seem to approach the entire argument as if you're arguing with people who like Biden.
Look, we are approaching this from fundamentally different perspectives. I'm a middle eastern immigrant. I agree that a reset to Obama's admin would be better absent any better options.

I simply am not going to let any whitewashing of his administration stand. Obama's administration bombed innocent people in the middle east. Obama's administration put migrants in cages. Biden voted for segregation. Biden said Strom Thurmond, a guy who held a 24 hour filibuster in opposition to the civil rights act, was his best friend. Now there are credible rape allegations against Biden, whose senior campaign advisor ran PR for Harvey Weinstein during his allegations, for free. Just because Biden is a (significantly) less bad option than Trump does not mean I will stand down on these positions. Just because he is the lesser of two evils does not mean he does not stand for a lifetime of evil and cruelty against minorities. I reject his candidacy, and until election day comes and Biden is the only other viable option than Trump, I will not even entertain the notion of him being an option I have to live with.

I gotta wonder why first reaction here is "welp gotta vote for Biden then I guess, lesser of two evils lol" and not "Holy shit, we'd better do everything we can to get Biden the fuck out now somehow, like raise a stink online and pummel the DNC until they can't ignore it."

Like this is unreal.
This. People telling immigrants and rape survivors that they have to deal with fewer migrants in cages and a rapist as an acceptable option is not something I am a fan of. There is still half a year until the election.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
17,740
I gotta wonder why first reaction here is "welp gotta vote for Biden then I guess, lesser of two evils lol" and not "Holy shit, we'd better do everything we can to get Biden the fuck out now somehow, like raise a stink online and pummel the DNC until they can't ignore it."

Like this is unreal.
People are convinced that the way things are, or the way things are going to be, is the only inevitable outcome.

I must reiterate, Biden having issues with inappropriate touching has been a well documented issue. People still voted for him. This isn't a needle mover for many in all likelihood.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
12,991
Look, we are approaching this from fundamentally different perspectives. I'm a middle eastern immigrant. I agree that a reset to Obama's admin would be better absent any better options.

I simply am not going to let any whitewashing of his administration stand. Obama's administration bombed innocent people in the middle east. Obama's administration put migrants in cages. Biden voted for segregation. Biden said Strom Thurmond, a guy who held a 24 hour filibuster in opposition to the civil rights act, was his best friend. Now there are credible rape allegations against Biden, whose senior campaign advisor ran PR for Harvey Weinstein during his allegations, for free. Just because Biden is a (significantly) less bad option than Trump does not mean I will stand down on these positions. Just because he is the lesser of two evils does not mean he does not stand for a lifetime of evil and cruelty against minorities. I reject his candidacy, and until election day comes and Biden is the only other viable option than Trump, I will not even entertain the notion of him being an option I have to live with.
I'm not forcing you to do anything. I'm a hispanic 2nd generation daughter of an immigrant and I voted for Bernie. I'm outlining why people would vote for Biden in a Biden vs Trump scenario as the subject of the thread implies, I'm not dismissing anything.
 

Deleted member 227

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
852
The OP states this:



It isn't asking anyone to do anything, it simply attempts to summarise the different positions within the community, and allows members to state their own positions as a general discussion OT with some guidelines.

There are sexual assault survivors like myself on the team, and I've had to moderate threads on this issue despite it being triggering for myself. It's upsetting to see insinuations that the team are trying to cape for Biden. Over the past 24 hours we've somehow been accused of being biased against people both for and against voting for Biden. The OP states that we're open to suggestions if you feel any of the points are not accurately summarised.

I'd also like to ask people to stay on topic, and not bring in cross-forum drama. There are very important discussions to be had here, so the thread should stay on topic. There are a lot of reports, and we'll be reviewing them all.
Both the title and OP have been updated based on feedback from members. The thread was not Poodlestrike's idea, but two members of the team who are survivors, and wanted to create a discussion OT like I stated. Whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you. But right now the vitriol in this thread has made several women and survivors on the team feel defeated and question why they're even doing this, as no matter what we do, and what we sacrifice (including our mental health in handling triggering subjects), it gets distorted and twisted.

I'm not saying we always get things right, because we don't. But we are open to suggestions and feedback, and put our all into this sincerely.
Well maybe it's time to admit that the moderation teams tendency to try to sanitise discussions with moderation inserts keeps creating unfavorable conditions to discuss in, with weighted sides and it is extremely unwelcome, intentional or not. It keeps happening over and over, on gaming side or OT, across subjects. Discussions get incredibly tone policied here, and it always messes up one side. Do I even need to bring up the Sony PAX Corona thread as an example? That way a discussion about it can be had without accusing your staffers of being opinionated and biased.

Cheebo was allowed space to backtrack on saying he'd vote on Hitler over Trump as "it's just a prank, brah", but Frozenprince gets an indefinite ban because of "inflammatory comparison" by joking that Era is comparable to a prison. You seriously can't see how this comes off as biased even if it's unintentional? One of those users actually created a separate thread for the rape testimony so the rest of OT could see it, while the other has been trying to downplay rape all day. Think of what kind of environment you just helped create by being more trigger happy on the other.

For the record, I'm not trying to dogpile you in to ban the other user too. Unban Frozenprince, cowards. And maybe step back a bit and let the forum have a natural discussion for once without the entire mod team trying to stiffle it.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,805
I gotta wonder why first reaction here is "welp gotta vote for Biden then I guess, lesser of two evils lol" and not "Holy shit, we'd better do everything we can to get Biden the fuck out now somehow, like raise a stink online and pummel the DNC until they can't ignore it."

Like this is unreal.
I mean...Biden was my distant fifth choice in this primary process, like he was literally only ahead of people like Tulsi and Bloomberg, and I'm as upset as anyone that he's winning this damn thing. But the numbers seem to indicate that he is getting turnout from actual, on the ground voters, people who consider themselves Democrats. He's popular with people. I don't fucking know why, other then the Obama name attachment and his persona, but if Biden goes I don't think all of those people just transfer over to whoever ends up getting the actual nomination.

I fucking hate it, but among the candidates who ran over the course of the last year he did turn out the numbers where it counted. Its not fair, its not right, and I would take literally just about anybody else (and to be clear, if anything else comes out around this rape allegation I will be sitting on my vote in my safe Illinois district and just voting down the ballot) but I get why people look at this election and go "fuck it, I guess it's Biden if that's what works". Like the enemy here is not actually the DNC. The DNC is not actually forcing him down anyone's throats, and if they use whatever pressure they can to get him off the ballot I don't know that that fixes things. The problem here is that he's winning in the number of cast votes, by a lot
 
Mar 10, 2018
2,627
Here is my argument for the third choice outline in the OP:

What it means if you vote for a sexual predator is easy: you support a sexual predator. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. Don't vote for Joe Biden if you support survivors in any real sort of way. This isn't just watching some movie that a sex pest starred in and maybe some of your money winds up in their pocket instead of the corporation or another actor's or residuals-recipient-- this is directly rewarding a rapist with even MORE power. That's what, materially, voting is, at least in this country- saying "yes, I want you to have power over me because I trust you to not abuse it and to listen to what I ask of you".

Biden has proven he cannot be trusted with that power. If you can live with yourself rewarding him for that, okay then, but don't guilt trip survivors who refuse to vote for him unless you really do want to out yourself as simply not caring about them.

Outside of those allegations, of course.... Those who think they're truly doing a good thing by pledging fealty to Biden before the primary is even fucking over? Don't be a fool. Vote for anyone but Biden in the primary. Obviously if you'd be okay with Bernie, that means Bernie. But all you have to do is vote for anyone but Biden to prevent him from reaching the magic delegate number of 1991 that ensures him the nomination. Preferably you WOULD vote for Bernie regardless to help make it a closer competition and make the powers that be reconsider coalescing around Biden and put someone else forward with less skeletons at the convention, but any little bit helps if you're truly unable to hold your nose.

And in the general? Just don't support either rapist. Vote downballot.
But, you say, Biden would be better, so you can go against your morals and support a rapist? No, I disagree, especially now that I know his touchy-feely bullshit wasn't "old man with a weird head on his shoulders" (which I already SHOULD have made the argument for being disqualifying for him months ago, that's my mistake, and I apologize sincerely) but "active sexual predator". The only major difference between a Biden administration and a Trump administration on an actual material level that wouldn't be effected by who's in Congress and in local positions, is that Biden would maybe choose a liberal or centrist (but certainly not a progressive) judge for the Supreme Court. And, frankly, we already LOST the Supreme Court in 2016. A liberal or centrist to replace RBG wouldn't solve the fact that Roe v. Wade is in consideration for being overturned by a case RIGHT NOW, and would likely be unable to sway any on the fence judges.

And, well... That's about it for material differences. We know Biden has said he would veto Medicare for All, which speaks poorly of how he'd handle frankly more radical bills like a Green New Deal or Reparations, so a Congress not filled with progressive voices to override his veto wouldn't be able to get anything actually good and helpful done under him OR Trump. Biden still supports spreading American-style imperialism, Biden still supports children in cages (and don't pretend he doesn't, he was in the administration that started it that was more to the left than he ever has been; at best they wouldn't be separated from their parents anymore, which is a hollow victory), and any support he holds for the LGBTQ+ and PoC communities is quite clearly lip service given his past stances... Lip service just like Trump. Wouldn't be surprised if he "compromises" with the right as he's so, so very good at doing, and enables some of the shit Trump has been whole-heartedly supporting. Perhaps a return to the "progressive" "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", hm? Most alarmingly, for me, is how Biden's environmental plans are woefully inadequate already and ripe for "compromising" with the right and corporations with vested monetary interests in leading our civilization to catastrophe. Like, we already treat refugees like trash, you think that's going to improve when millions, not just thousands, are asking to get in? Not unless by some miracle Trump or Biden is followed up by someone like AOC as a bare minimum and only gets better presidents from there.

So, I'm sorry, to me, the argument "getting Biden in would be better than Trump" is only true in the most marginal of senses and would maybe allow the privileged to sleep easy thinking they did a good job because they don't have to hear a report about Trump every day, while the disadvantaged still have to worry about getting food on the table, or if this injust system we're in (and that Joe Biden is okay with) will kill or otherwise harm them due to it's inability to prevent rape, harassment, hate crimes, or police brutality. So really, you're just trading a loudly spoken rapist bigot fascism enabler for a softer spoken rapist bigot who's preferred system- the system we had since Reagan at least- which will lead to another fascist in record time due to how the system doesn't fucking work. Maybe we get to keep a liberal judge on a court that isn't going to listen to them anyway for it. Sounds like a raw deal for giving a rapist power to me, especially when we shouldn't be enabling rapists in the FIRST place.

But! If we vote downballot this November, get Democrats and, more importantly, progressive and leftist Democrats in office? You can make sure any judge either man puts up would be thoroughly vetted- perhaps we can even get a stonewall going akin to how Obama was if Trump picks a truly heinous individual, or to just prevent anyone but a truly progressive judge to balance out what Trump has done. We could get over the veto hump that'd prevent important progress. We could potentially prevent further disastrous wars, such as the hot one with Iran and the cold one with China Trump seems to ideate about, or the Iraq War which Biden helped spearhead. We could get those children not just reunited with their parents, but eliminate the cages AND ICE, and maybe, just maybe, give them an easier pathway to citizenship. We could get PoC and LGBTQ+ individuals into power and advocating for their communities. We could help prevent cockamamie schemes by the right and right-friendly center. We could actually, you know, prevent the ice caps from completely thawing, not have crop-destroying wildfires, cold snaps and droughts, and not have all coastline cities eradicated, leading to the rule of fascism if not the return of feudalism, for centuries.

And importantly- we could enact change on a grassroots-up level without willfully empowering a rapist! It will require work though- you can't just sit at home if you have the ability to do more, for the sake of those who must work or save transportation money when it's time to show up to the polls or lose their future -- or even their lives. You'll have to canvass, you'll have to protest. Even just signing up with a political campaign to phone or text bank, which you can do sitting at home! Can you do that? Do you, in fact, value morality and progress as you claim by inherently posting in political OTs on this site?

Or do you just want an unjust peace, where rapists run the show, because you're okay with that? Or, perhaps, you just pay lip service to the idea of justice, but really don't care on a base level as long as the bad things don't inconvenience you personally?

Support victims. Support progress. Do not vote Biden, do not advocate for voting Biden in the primary OR The general. But importantly-
Still go vote.
Vote for Biden's VP should you be in a state that allows voting for the ticket separately they not be a rapist themselves if you don't think the association is too damning (which, understandably, may be, and I cannot blame anyone for not doing so). Vote for Democratic Senators and Progressive or Leftist Representatives, on a national and state level. Vote for mayors, for city councilpeople. Vote for progress. Or at least, vote to mitigate the harm either of these monsters will do.

And most importantly, for the sake of victims here, if you can't even do the minimum to support victims with your vote, at least don't crow proudly about how you're voting for Biden and how people are being "irresponsible" or "supporting Trump" by not voting for Biden. You're making victims of sexual abuse actively feel unsafe or unheeded, which we should be actively avoiding as a site founded on such progressive thought.

Here's a helpful link to help you on your way with finding who to vote for downballot:

435 house seats up in the air once again grabs, 23 Republican seats to claim and 12 Dem seats to hold onto (or primary if the Democrat is acting insufficiently).

And here's a link to state legislative elections:

Nevada, Alaska, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, Michigan, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Delaware, New York, Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Maine are all holding those this year.

Find out who's running in those, who can mitigate harm or push progress, and campaign. Campaign, campaign, campaign. And again- VOTE THIS NOVEMBER. Just don't vote for a rapist.

Enabling one rapist enables them all.
This should be the actual OP. Excellent post.
 

zero_suit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,914
Here is my argument for the third choice outline in the OP:

What it means if you vote for a sexual predator is easy: you support a sexual predator. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. Don't vote for Joe Biden if you support survivors in any real sort of way. This isn't just watching some movie that a sex pest starred in and maybe some of your money winds up in their pocket instead of the corporation or another actor's or residuals-recipient-- this is directly rewarding a rapist with even MORE power. That's what, materially, voting is, at least in this country- saying "yes, I want you to have power over me because I trust you to not abuse it and to listen to what I ask of you".

Biden has proven he cannot be trusted with that power. If you can live with yourself rewarding him for that, okay then, but don't guilt trip survivors who refuse to vote for him unless you really do want to out yourself as simply not caring about them.

Outside of those allegations, of course.... Those who think they're truly doing a good thing by pledging fealty to Biden before the primary is even fucking over? Don't be a fool. Vote for anyone but Biden in the primary. Obviously if you'd be okay with Bernie, that means Bernie. But all you have to do is vote for anyone but Biden to prevent him from reaching the magic delegate number of 1991 that ensures him the nomination. Preferably you WOULD vote for Bernie regardless to help make it a closer competition and make the powers that be reconsider coalescing around Biden and put someone else forward with less skeletons at the convention, but any little bit helps if you're truly unable to hold your nose.

And in the general? Just don't support either rapist. Vote downballot.
But, you say, Biden would be better, so you can go against your morals and support a rapist? No, I disagree, especially now that I know his touchy-feely bullshit wasn't "old man with a weird head on his shoulders" (which I already SHOULD have made the argument for being disqualifying for him months ago, that's my mistake, and I apologize sincerely) but "active sexual predator". The only major difference between a Biden administration and a Trump administration on an actual material level that wouldn't be effected by who's in Congress and in local positions, is that Biden would maybe choose a liberal or centrist (but certainly not a progressive) judge for the Supreme Court. And, frankly, we already LOST the Supreme Court in 2016. A liberal or centrist to replace RBG wouldn't solve the fact that Roe v. Wade is in consideration for being overturned by a case RIGHT NOW, and would likely be unable to sway any on the fence judges.

And, well... That's about it for material differences. We know Biden has said he would veto Medicare for All, which speaks poorly of how he'd handle frankly more radical bills like a Green New Deal or Reparations, so a Congress not filled with progressive voices to override his veto wouldn't be able to get anything actually good and helpful done under him OR Trump. Biden still supports spreading American-style imperialism, Biden still supports children in cages (and don't pretend he doesn't, he was in the administration that started it that was more to the left than he ever has been; at best they wouldn't be separated from their parents anymore, which is a hollow victory), and any support he holds for the LGBTQ+ and PoC communities is quite clearly lip service given his past stances... Lip service just like Trump. Wouldn't be surprised if he "compromises" with the right as he's so, so very good at doing, and enables some of the shit Trump has been whole-heartedly supporting. Perhaps a return to the "progressive" "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", hm? Most alarmingly, for me, is how Biden's environmental plans are woefully inadequate already and ripe for "compromising" with the right and corporations with vested monetary interests in leading our civilization to catastrophe. Like, we already treat refugees like trash, you think that's going to improve when millions, not just thousands, are asking to get in? Not unless by some miracle Trump or Biden is followed up by someone like AOC as a bare minimum and only gets better presidents from there.

So, I'm sorry, to me, the argument "getting Biden in would be better than Trump" is only true in the most marginal of senses and would maybe allow the privileged to sleep easy thinking they did a good job because they don't have to hear a report about Trump every day, while the disadvantaged still have to worry about getting food on the table, or if this injust system we're in (and that Joe Biden is okay with) will kill or otherwise harm them due to it's inability to prevent rape, harassment, hate crimes, or police brutality. So really, you're just trading a loudly spoken rapist bigot fascism enabler for a softer spoken rapist bigot who's preferred system- the system we had since Reagan at least- which will lead to another fascist in record time due to how the system doesn't fucking work. Maybe we get to keep a liberal judge on a court that isn't going to listen to them anyway for it. Sounds like a raw deal for giving a rapist power to me, especially when we shouldn't be enabling rapists in the FIRST place.

But! If we vote downballot this November, get Democrats and, more importantly, progressive and leftist Democrats in office? You can make sure any judge either man puts up would be thoroughly vetted- perhaps we can even get a stonewall going akin to how Obama was if Trump picks a truly heinous individual, or to just prevent anyone but a truly progressive judge to balance out what Trump has done. We could get over the veto hump that'd prevent important progress. We could potentially prevent further disastrous wars, such as the hot one with Iran and the cold one with China Trump seems to ideate about, or the Iraq War which Biden helped spearhead. We could get those children not just reunited with their parents, but eliminate the cages AND ICE, and maybe, just maybe, give them an easier pathway to citizenship. We could get PoC and LGBTQ+ individuals into power and advocating for their communities. We could help prevent cockamamie schemes by the right and right-friendly center. We could actually, you know, prevent the ice caps from completely thawing, not have crop-destroying wildfires, cold snaps and droughts, and not have all coastline cities eradicated, leading to the rule of fascism if not the return of feudalism, for centuries.

And importantly- we could enact change on a grassroots-up level without willfully empowering a rapist! It will require work though- you can't just sit at home if you have the ability to do more, for the sake of those who must work or save transportation money when it's time to show up to the polls or lose their future -- or even their lives. You'll have to canvass, you'll have to protest. Even just signing up with a political campaign to phone or text bank, which you can do sitting at home! Can you do that? Do you, in fact, value morality and progress as you claim by inherently posting in political OTs on this site?

Or do you just want an unjust peace, where rapists run the show, because you're okay with that? Or, perhaps, you just pay lip service to the idea of justice, but really don't care on a base level as long as the bad things don't inconvenience you personally?

Support victims. Support progress. Do not vote Biden, do not advocate for voting Biden in the primary OR The general. But importantly-
Still go vote.
Vote for Biden's VP should you be in a state that allows voting for the ticket separately they not be a rapist themselves if you don't think the association is too damning (which, understandably, may be, and I cannot blame anyone for not doing so). Vote for Democratic Senators and Progressive or Leftist Representatives, on a national and state level. Vote for mayors, for city councilpeople. Vote for progress. Or at least, vote to mitigate the harm either of these monsters will do.

And most importantly, for the sake of victims here, if you can't even do the minimum to support victims with your vote, at least don't crow proudly about how you're voting for Biden and how people are being "irresponsible" or "supporting Trump" by not voting for Biden. You're making victims of sexual abuse actively feel unsafe or unheeded, which we should be actively avoiding as a site founded on such progressive thought.

Here's a helpful link to help you on your way with finding who to vote for downballot:

435 house seats up in the air once again grabs, 23 Republican seats to claim and 12 Dem seats to hold onto (or primary if the Democrat is acting insufficiently).

And here's a link to state legislative elections:

Nevada, Alaska, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, Michigan, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Delaware, New York, Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Maine are all holding those this year.

Find out who's running in those, who can mitigate harm or push progress, and campaign. Campaign, campaign, campaign. And again- VOTE THIS NOVEMBER. Just don't vote for a rapist.

Enabling one rapist enables them all.
What an excellent post.
 

Heraldic

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
678
I can‘t in good conscience vote for either man, both of whom have serious allegations against them.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
17,665
No, they were not trying to reunite their families in fucking cages. They were trying to find their families with HHS to find homes for them or reunite them with their families. You have no idea about the incident you're talking about. The cages were otherwise unused.


False equivalencies abound. Obama wasn't good about deportations, but the reason they had so many was because of the way deportations were reported changed. The reason they bragged about it was for the votes, as disgusting as that is. On the other hand you had DACA under Obama and now...?
I just want to say this isn't the first time someone tried to wrongly argue that Obama had to follow the rules for the way deportations changed when he didn't. That excuse is bullshit and is only used to handwave away the fact Obama did in fact make deportations a huge priority while bragging about it and then gave us DACA to look reasonable. Trump is worse, Obama wasn't much better.
 

TaySan

Member
Dec 10, 2018
8,771
I told my mother about Biden and she had a meltdown. :( This is so disapointing if he wins.
 
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