Again continue to act like trauma is nothing and deserves mockery.
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On Voting or Not Voting for Biden in Light of the Sexual Assault Allegations |OT| Discussion Guidelines in OP
- Thread starter Poodlestrike
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Again continue to act like trauma is nothing and deserves mockery.
In 2024 we'll get Bloomberg/Ivanka (D) vs. Pence/Eric (R).
Edit: Added the letter so you can tell them apart.
What do you think is gunna happen if this rape allegation blows up? How can Biden support victims of sexual assault if he's going to actively dismiss his own allegations, which is very likely to happen?
Come to think of it, is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, all of which resemble prisons?
Hell while I'm in a foucauldian mood:
I acknowledge and empathize with your trauma. But as a survivor myself, with diagnosed PTSD... what the fuck choice do I have? I live in a swing state. I know for a fact that Trump would do more harm to the country. I'll keep fighting to have a different candidate, but if it's Biden on the ticket, then I will vote for him without hesitation.
ERA 👏 IS 👏 A 👏 PRISONCome to think of it, is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, all of which resemble prisons?
Hell while I'm in a foucauldian mood:
It's not bullshit. The OP even went as far as to try and summarize a few position and clarify that there's no way that the few listed represents all of them. They did something OTHER than just lock the discussion away and throw it in a dungeon forbidding anyone to talk about the topic wholesale which I have literally see moderation slammed for in the past. Even went as far as to make sure they told everyone that they are not as a team endorsing any of them, but simply making sure we have a place to discuss it, and still you come at their neck.
I have my issues with moderation here. Ive eaten a TON of bans because of it. But its starting to look like people are making it impossible for them to even function.
Yup. Also it's not like Dems have been great with how they deal with sexual assault. Or are we going to ignore Bill and his shit.
Vote for Biden but have empathy for those too disgusted and traumatized to stomach making that choice.
Unless there's a miracle response to these sexual assault claims, I'm voting third-party as a California resident (effectively making my vote not matter much), to send a message to the DNC that they need to do better.
If I lived in a swing state I'd vote Biden because getting Trump out of office is pretty damn important. But I'm not convinced my vote will matter there.
If I lived in a swing state I'd vote Biden because getting Trump out of office is pretty damn important. But I'm not convinced my vote will matter there.
As a fellow survivor I agree with you. But is it our place to shame other survivors who can't come to the same conclusion? It's really not an easy decision to make and I don't blame those who can't agree with voting for him.
I could vote third party because Illinois is going to go to the democrat nominee no matter what. I don't know if I'll vote for Biden but to be honest i probably will. I know that makes me an awful person, but the country can't survive another four years of trump and his cronies. There's no way RBG is making it another four years, for example. I'll have to hold my nose and do it. I'll still despise the DNC for pushing bad candidates.
I wouldn't hold it against those who can't or won't vote for him, though. And I definitely wouldn't take offense to people calling me shit on voting for him, if I do.
I wouldn't hold it against those who can't or won't vote for him, though. And I definitely wouldn't take offense to people calling me shit on voting for him, if I do.
Come to think of it, is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, all of which resemble prisons?
Hell while I'm in a foucauldian mood:
I went to jail for my first marijuana possession in February and it's crazy how similar it was to my elementary and middle school. I don't think I would have thought about that had you not posted this. Off topic but disturbing.
Then vote for him. I do not blame you for this situation or for voting for him. It's a shitty situation. At the end of the day, I probably will still vote for him. But I don't want people mocking those who cannot push that trigger.
Simply looking at the alternative, one is clearly worse than the other, and isn't that the whole point of this discussion if the general election is a vote between Biden and Trump?
Both the title and OP have been updated based on feedback from members. The thread was not Poodlestrike's idea, but two members of the team who are survivors, and wanted to create a discussion OT like I stated. Whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you. But right now the vitriol in this thread has made several women and survivors on the team feel defeated and question why they're even doing this, as no matter what we do, and what we sacrifice (including our mental health in handling triggering subjects), it gets distorted and twisted.
I'm not saying we always get things right, because we don't. But we are open to suggestions and feedback, and put our all into this sincerely.
end of the day I vote to take America away from Trump, no matter who is there, even if it's some twilight zone scenario where Bernie is in there.
too much is at stake for not only citizens but the country as whole with global implications
too much is at stake for not only citizens but the country as whole with global implications
Taking the upcoming election seriously in order to remove Trump from office at all costs and sympathizing with survivors are not mutually exclusive positions. Can we please stop with that nonsense?
I dunno I'm just at the point where I'm sick of being forced to choose the slightly less shitty option when it comes to voting in leadership. Voting to vote someone out not because you actually believe in the candidate you voted for.
I think it's entirely possible for someone to agree with you, and still be unable to vote for Biden. And it's not my place to tell them how their trauma should inform their voting decision, or shame them for that decision.
There are a MILLION bad excuses thrown around from people who want to claim Biden is just as bad as Trump and say we shouldn't vote for him. If we are talking about sexual assault trauma, that's one I can actually reason with.
For those of you wondering how some of us could sit out when the risk is 4 more years of Trump: eventually in politics you're asked to eat so much shit that you decide you'd rather drown. It is a surrender of defeat, at least in the venue of electoral politics. It is built up trauma and compromise that goes nowhere. Consider why things have gotten to this point.
Or abstaining to vote means you have more faith in alternative paths currying sway to your position than the passive engagement of voting.
This isn't a binary. There are other avenues to influence change other than what executive official you select every four years. The philosophy of a well known activist, Malcolm X, as expressed in this thread is proof enough of that.
Like Bloomberg who endorsed Joe Biden shortly after dropping out! :D
We put up with a rapist Demoracrat president in the 90s and I think that was enough for one lifetime. Like, if you count Biden's vice presidency that's already 3 rapists in the White House in 30 years ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
"bUt ThIs RaPiSt Is ThE lEsSeR oF tWo EvIls1!"
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"bUt ThIs RaPiSt Is ThE lEsSeR oF tWo EvIls1!"
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Honestly at this point it might be best to just focus on taking care of TOS violations, although I'm sure you're all getting bombarded with reports from people seeing what they want to see. Anything said by a staff member will be seen as an official position held by the whole team and you'll be seen as the enemy by those who give the posts the least charitable read possible.
Biden will harm rape victims too!! There's literally nothing proving otherwise. Trump isn't okay at all, but Biden isn't either. By voting Biden, as I have said, is giving a rapist power over people. Power he can very well wield to silence those who speak out, much as Trump has done, much as the Clintons did. Hell, as he did already when Tara spoke out before and didn't include that he outright assaulted her, and just said he touched her (not that that's acceptable either, of course). If a victim really, really wants to do that, I can't speak against that, and I really hope they're right and I'm wrong. But for everyone else, based on the facts and what several victims have said, it's our moral imperative to not vote for him for the victims who clearly are not okay with voting for him, especially when you consider what won't change from a Trump to a Biden administration and how it effects victims. At the same time, voting does matter, it does have material effects, and with that in mind, we still need to vote downballot if we can't get Biden to step out, can't get Bernie in, or we can't get a brokered convention and get someone to replace Biden there. The presidency is far from the only office in this country that matters, thank the gods that be. But we need to actually start acting like it.
Agreed.
No, it isn't. I'm a socialist, and a rape survivor, something I fucking hate talking about, and I worked on this thread, alongside Poodle, alongside many of the staff who come from all sorts of different backgrounds, from political, minority, and various marginalized groups. There are many angles we consider, including being sensitive to survivors. Don't take your anger and frustration out on a group of volunteers who work extremely hard under tight deadlines in tense and difficult situations and subjects. People who donate their time doing this in between working their careers, spending time with their families, loved ones, and trying to have some sort of life outside this website. You want to criticize the staff, fine, we're going to make mistakes, but keep it grounded, and remember that they are volunteers who always act in good faith.
You're clearly acting in good faith.
edit: typo
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Real talk it's fucking weird that despite being a commercial forum that the mods are apparently volunteers. We get mad when Facebook doesn't pay their moderators and content scrubbers a living wage and it's kind of weird that we tolerate paying mods here even less given the forum is for-profit.
I'm voting for the rapist piece of shit to help my friends live. I'm not proud, fucking shamed I'm voting for a rapist piece of shit. But our broken ass system made sure that to keep my friends alive and out of prison that I have to vote for a rapist piece of shit. I'm not better than anyone else for voting for that rapist piece of shit, I wanted Warren but the Democratic party choose a rapist piece of shit.
I think we should remind those that hate the rapist piece of shit you're voting for my friends to live. Its a hard bullshit position to have a rapist piece of shit on the ballot but we all care about my friends and it's a vote for them. After the rapist piece of shit wins, let's shit on him for being a rapist piece of shit
Also note to mods and admins: y'all are lovely, lovely fucking people and I can't imagine the immense pressure.
I think we should remind those that hate the rapist piece of shit you're voting for my friends to live. Its a hard bullshit position to have a rapist piece of shit on the ballot but we all care about my friends and it's a vote for them. After the rapist piece of shit wins, let's shit on him for being a rapist piece of shit
Also note to mods and admins: y'all are lovely, lovely fucking people and I can't imagine the immense pressure.
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I think when I see stuff like this I am a lot more understanding of it than having a blanket staff thread and post without knowing the details. And not that anyone who experienced that should have to reveal those details in the first place but having staff post something like this, thats at least a bit more human, would likely make a lot of the responses a lot less hostile.
But I also think, and know as someone who this has happened to, that staff change and sugar coat Biden threads where his problematic behavior gets downplayed. Its a pattern not a one time incident and so it looks much more suspect even if this particular time was earnestly just an accident.
(and also maybe not have staff jump in front of someone talking about voting for hitler would also help).
worse, it has the effect (especially before the title change anyway) of feeling like a way to corral all of the discussion in a more sanitized (and more easily overlooked) single thread rather than letting people discuss their feelings on it. like i vehemently disagree with the blue no matter who posters, but they should be free to make their own threads and argue it out with people in them, and vice versa, and people should be able to bring it up in threads where they feel it's relevant. i know it's an extremely unpleasant topic but it's the reality of the election we're coming up to and you can't quarantine people's thoughts and feelings on this topic in one place. that's just not how political arguments work.
the election is (supposedly, barring it getting pushed back because of covid) in november, and there's gonna be a lot of shit hitting the fan between now and then because that's just how it is. creating an OT for one issue, for one candidate, that interacts and intersects with so many other possible factors for how people will or won't end up voting, feels short-sighted at best. like just as a personal example here, i'd already made my mind up way early in the primaries that i would not vote for biden if he ended up becoming the nominee because my pet issues (more or less) are healthcare and foreign policy. i'm happy to defend that position if i feel like posting about it in other threads, which is more likely to happen because there's no healthcare voting OT or foreign policy voting OT that i have to stick to a rigid debate format in. they'll just come up, because they're some of the many factors people are making a decision based on. this thread is just telling people that their opinion on one issue is a third rail
This is an insane hyperbolic position to have. Biden is miles away from what I'd consider ideal, but Biden is light years better than Trump.
Short list of shit Trump did since he's been in office:
- Emolument violations of propping up his hotel to foreign dignitaries.
- Assigned croonies like Devos that at every turn made education much worse in the country.
- F'ing put Brett Kavanaugh on the supreme court (also accused of rape)
- Turned back huge numbers of environmental policies, including clean air act and other policies of restricting potentially neurotoxic pesticides.
- Undermine our political process by strong-arming Ukraine to manufacture dirt on Biden, which he was impeached for but not convicted by the Senate.
- Putting fucking migrant children in cages in concentration camps, separating them from their parents.
One does not even compare to the other.
I get what you're saying, but in a world of real consequences, if you're in a swing state, voting for one that will objectively make your life better vs. one that will definitely make your life worse. It's painful to do, especially for one that cares about victim advocating, as well as the mental well-being of these people, but at the same time, abstaining from voting for Trumps opposition is +1 vote for Trump in the game theory of life.
I want to be clear I mean the question I am about to ask you in all honesty. I fucking hate Trump and and I have no desire to vote for another rapist in Biden. How can a no-vote or a third party vote for President NOT be considered a vote for Trump? You are going to support someone either directly or by abstaining. You are going to vote for a sexual predator, no matter what, either directly or by abstaining. As much as I would love to abstain, that is a moral quandary that no one has been able to explain to me. I understand you are also making the argument that Trump and Biden are basically the same, but I can't even begin to entertain that. With Trump we have a guarantee of more evil actions towards minorities and LGBT, and with Biden you are arguing his potential to be evil is just as bad due to his record of holding some terrible fucking views(and again I would love to not have him as a candidate at all). I can't split the difference there...potential is not the same as facts.
You can abstain from voting for rapist Joe Biden and still vote down-ballot to give the Democrats the ability to hold Donald Trump accountable.
It's sad to see that this would even be a big decision to make after the last few years.
Should have learned what the consequences of allowing the worst case to happen because of your reluctance to entertain less than everything you want.
I was pretty shocked by the internal sabotage within the dem side of things in 2016 and it seems people are begging for a repeat.
Despite whatever one might feel inside, reality shows that it's about more than that at the end of the day.
If your choice is likely going to result in the exact opposite outcome say of what you fight for every day, then what exactly are you fighting for?
Can you even call that fighting? Allowing the opponents of your cause to prevail and set every thing back for decades. Is that actually standing up for what you believe in?
Should have learned what the consequences of allowing the worst case to happen because of your reluctance to entertain less than everything you want.
I was pretty shocked by the internal sabotage within the dem side of things in 2016 and it seems people are begging for a repeat.
Despite whatever one might feel inside, reality shows that it's about more than that at the end of the day.
If your choice is likely going to result in the exact opposite outcome say of what you fight for every day, then what exactly are you fighting for?
Can you even call that fighting? Allowing the opponents of your cause to prevail and set every thing back for decades. Is that actually standing up for what you believe in?
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If only most posters in this thread and the other threads screaming at people abstaining on Joe Biden said this as much as the latter things would be so much more productive.
I'd vote against Biden in the primary, but Kentucky hasn't gone and it's looking more like Biden is getting the nomination. As for the general, it's a terrible choice, but I'd still vote for Biden. Do I think what Biden did was reprehensible and people like him should be in jail as opposed to in office? Yes. Do I want four more years of Trump? No.
At this point, not voting for the Dem candidate in November gives another rapist a free ride and the ability to put more of his rapist friends in the courts, cutting down rights for minorities, women, and trans individuals, and trying to push our country towards authoritarianism. I understand the reasons why there are grave issues to not vote for Biden, I just couldn't stomach giving Trump a free ride by quite literally tossing a vote away.
I'll still be voting down ballot regardless, tho thanks to how fucked states are gerry-mandered (and the Supreme Court is already leaning hard right), I don't expect any glorious results for our state from that either.
At this point, not voting for the Dem candidate in November gives another rapist a free ride and the ability to put more of his rapist friends in the courts, cutting down rights for minorities, women, and trans individuals, and trying to push our country towards authoritarianism. I understand the reasons why there are grave issues to not vote for Biden, I just couldn't stomach giving Trump a free ride by quite literally tossing a vote away.
I'll still be voting down ballot regardless, tho thanks to how fucked states are gerry-mandered (and the Supreme Court is already leaning hard right), I don't expect any glorious results for our state from that either.
This is true, but you do understand that RBG is 87 years old. She is not likely to live much longer after November. The SCOTUS is already 5-4 conservative, would you rather it being 6-3 by sometime next year?
2016 was a golden opportunity to achieve a liberal Supreme Court for the first time in a generation, an increasingly crucial goal as Congress remains deadlocked. Revulsion over Clinton killed that dream.
As for 2020? Forget a liberal Court -- re-electing Trump would make it hard-right for a generation. You could elect president AOC and DSA majorities in Congress in 2024 and it wouldn't matter. Everything they did would get struck down. It would be a kill-shot on American progressivism. Every term would bring a new assault on democracy on the scale of Citizens United (unlimited dark money), or Shelby v. Holder (destroying the Voting Rights Act), or the Janus case (crippling unions). And a Federalist Society-controlled Court wouldn't just block reform, they would roll back everything achieved since FDR. Maybe earlier (google "Lochner era" for an idea of what they're trying to return us to). There's a reason McConnell has been so dead set on keeping Trump onside and stacking the judiciary no matter the cost. He knows how critical it is to the future.
This election poses an existential risk to American liberal democracy, and to the planet (hello climate change). Biden was about my last choice in the primary, but if he's the only way to defeat Trumpism then I will crawl over broken glass to elect him. He's like the only heart surgeon available when you need emergency cardiac surgery -- he might be doddering, or racist, or even a sexual assaulter, but when the alternative is painful death you go with what you've got. You don't have to like him, voting for him doesn't mean you condone him, and there's nothing stopping you from holding him accountable after the election, but the stakes here are too high to afford valuing a private sense of purity or self-righteousness over ejecting the overwhelming danger that another four years of Trump represents.
As for 2020? Forget a liberal Court -- re-electing Trump would make it hard-right for a generation. You could elect president AOC and DSA majorities in Congress in 2024 and it wouldn't matter. Everything they did would get struck down. It would be a kill-shot on American progressivism. Every term would bring a new assault on democracy on the scale of Citizens United (unlimited dark money), or Shelby v. Holder (destroying the Voting Rights Act), or the Janus case (crippling unions). And a Federalist Society-controlled Court wouldn't just block reform, they would roll back everything achieved since FDR. Maybe earlier (google "Lochner era" for an idea of what they're trying to return us to). There's a reason McConnell has been so dead set on keeping Trump onside and stacking the judiciary no matter the cost. He knows how critical it is to the future.
This election poses an existential risk to American liberal democracy, and to the planet (hello climate change). Biden was about my last choice in the primary, but if he's the only way to defeat Trumpism then I will crawl over broken glass to elect him. He's like the only heart surgeon available when you need emergency cardiac surgery -- he might be doddering, or racist, or even a sexual assaulter, but when the alternative is painful death you go with what you've got. You don't have to like him, voting for him doesn't mean you condone him, and there's nothing stopping you from holding him accountable after the election, but the stakes here are too high to afford valuing a private sense of purity or self-righteousness over ejecting the overwhelming danger that another four years of Trump represents.
This only works if we can flip the senate, which I honestly don't see happening. If people are abstaining from for Biden in general, they just straight ain't going to the polls and with how the Senate is laid out, having geography (which the GOP has in spades) means they can comfortably keep their slight majority.
Using this logic, an abstain or third party vote in this election is.... also a vote for Biden. However, a vote in this system cannot be for two people for the same position. You can only vote FOR someone, you cannot vote AGAINST someone, not effectively in the presidential election anyway. You'd need something like preferential voting to do that, or another complete restructure of the system. Which, uh, definitely isn't happening by November if Biden cinches the nom, both due to logistics and because both Trump and Biden benefit from the current system.
Full disclosure, I bought into that line of thought in 2016. After Bernie dropped, I panicked. I voted Hillary, warts and all, because "she's better than Trump". It didn't work. We didn't get her. We lost the Supreme Court to the alt-right for ten to twenty years for our trouble. It's clear as day the system doesn't work with "I'm voting against this person" in mind, but "I'm voting for this person".
Even that aside, I've seen Biden's record. I'm pansexual. I am neurodivergent- I have general anxiety disorder, depression, and quite possibly (because I was given medication for it but my doctor refused to confirm and just kept asking "is it helping" and I'm unable to seek out a doctor currently) ADHD. I am marginalized by society. And, frankly, as a marginalized person who has listened to the opinions of many marginalized people who I don't share the exact same marginalization with- women, people of color, trans people, and disabled and differently abled individuals- nothing Biden wants to do is better than what Trump would be able to achieve IF we vote downballot. So between a rapist and a rapist, I'm not going to roll my dice with the rapist who some people think might do better in spite of his record. So, either way, it makes no sense for me to vote for him, especially with how I want to show my solidarity with victims AND not enable a rapist in hiding his crimes.
The only flaw in my logic, I guess, is assuming people will not show up at all rather than, you know, turning out to vote downballot. Which is possible. But I'm against that, specifically and loudly against that. Voting is important. But it's also important to NOT empower rapists.
Like that should be the biggest takeaway - a vote for someone is not a vote against someone else, but a vote to empower them. A vote for Biden empowers him. He is a rapist. You are empowering a rapist by voting for him.
I want to re-iterate that even if the thread was made in good faith the way it was set up seemed (intentionally or not) contrived in such a way that went too far in narrowing the discussion and thus made the good faith unclear
but noted and i wont' raise the issue again
I'm surprised this is bannable given it's clearly in jest
like if you want to hand out a ban for other posts then fair cop but given the post it was replying to this is clearly a facetious comment
but noted and i wont' raise the issue again
i dont think whoever actioned this has read much focualt
I'm surprised this is bannable given it's clearly in jest
like if you want to hand out a ban for other posts then fair cop but given the post it was replying to this is clearly a facetious comment
This is not a blame game, I'm simply stating that despite a terrible choice that is likely to be Biden in the general election, there are many other consequences if Trump is elected again. Of which, having a 6-3 conservative SCOTUS will likely be felt 30 years from now that I'm much more concerned about as well as a plethora of other issues.
Let me reiterate one more time that the "put migrant children in cages" practice began during the Obama/Biden administration. He is entirely culpable for that. Trump expanded the program, but the program, from its beginning, was about putting migrants in cages and often lead to the separation of children from their parents. Do not whitewash this.
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