Once Upon a Time in Hollywood |OT| Fictional Glorious Basterds Unchained (Open Spoilers)

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,288
How is the portrayal of the Manson family taking advantage of Spahn portrayed as 'justified' or 'good'?
It's an old man fucking a young girl, and if anything, he's a victim.
And like yeah, it makes sense in the context of the story, and like, if that was the only case where awful behavior was made to make sense in the context of the story it's one thing, but I think this is not the only case you see that.

Like, we see a child actor get abused but that story makes it fine.
We see a dude in his 50s ogling an underage girl but that's fine, but the story makes it fine, he ended up carding her before fucking her.
We see panty shot in a movie, but it's great and empowering and the actress herself loved it!
A rich person is being a dick to people who have shitty cars driving in his street, but guess what? that literally saved the day!

There are more examples too.
And like, you think this really means nothing?
That movie really didn't strike me as "just don't think about it and have fun with the story" type of film.

No offense but I think these are really peculiar readings of the movie.

The Spahn Ranch situation is depicted fairly accurately - and sanitizing it serves no purpose... in fact it undermines the point of including the Tate-Manson subplot entirely.

Leo shouting at Tex et al is due to them having a noisy car dumping smoke outside his house in the wee hours, on a PRIVATE DRIVE. He was absolutely in the clear to go after them. In fact, more in the clear than he even knew at the time. He pegged them as pieces of crap up to no good and... they were, x10.

The girl wearing pads indicated to me this was something planned as a possibility for the scene.
I mean, if the movie is making the case that rich people should just be asshole to people who drive shitty cars in their streets because they might end up being serial killers than I have bigger disagreement with the film.
Though again, I don't think that's what the film was going with.
 

BluePigGanon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
892
I mean, if the movie is making the case that rich people should just be asshole to people who drive shitty cars in their streets because they might end up being serial killers than I have bigger disagreement with the film.
Though again, I don't think that's what the film was going with.
I think the movie was going for: this is a gated private drive and some sketchy people in a noisy car that's belching smoke in the middle of the night outside Leo's house pissed him off.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,159
I think the movie was going for: this is a gated private drive and some sketchy people in a noisy car that's belching smoke in the middle of the night outside Leo's house pissed him off.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
The other thing to keep in mind is that Tarantino and DiCaprio has in mind the idea that he’s bipolar
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,288
I think the movie was going for: this is a gated private drive and some sketchy people in a noisy car that's belching smoke in the middle of the night outside Leo's house pissed him off.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
There is obviously no right or wrong here, anyone could read a movie any way they like, But FWIW, I think that's the first Tarantino movie where I see people talk about like this.
I feel people write paragraphs on every scene he ever made and about what they mean, and it's kinda weird to see people look at that film and like "meh, it means nothing, just a scene he put there for no reason, just enjoy the plot and stop overthinking about things".
 

Anton Sugar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,232
I mean, if the movie is making the case that rich people should just be asshole to people who drive shitty cars in their streets because they might end up being serial killers than I have bigger disagreement with the film.
Though again, I don't think that's what the film was going with.
Whether he intended it or not, at least part of his message seems to be "If only a badass ex-Special Forces alpha male had been around that night, instead of pre-pubescent boy-men!"
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,159
This definitely has my favorite song mix of any Tarantino movie.

Weird that Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show isn't included on the soundtrack.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,288
Whether he intended it or not, at least part of his message seems to be "If only a badass ex-Special Forces alpha male had been around that night, instead of pre-pubescent boy-men!"
You know, when I was watching the movie, when the Brad Pitt murdering his wife flashback thing happened I was like, oh, I get it, you're doing a thing where you make us root for the bad guys.
But I felt the film went in the exact opposite direction.

I donno, it's very easy to read that film as boomer memes: the movie - "if only strong cowboys type men who don't take shit from their nagging wives where there save the beautiful, pregnant woman from the the dirty hippies" type of thing.
And to be clear, I don't think this is what he went for, but what ended up on screen kinda bothered me on that front.
 

Brazil

The Dude of Prophecy
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
10,735
São Paulo, Brazil
Is there a good documentary on the RL murders, or perhaps just a great article about it?

My girlfriend actually didn't know anything about Tate and the murders and was thoroughly lost when watching the film, and I think the story is bizarre enough that it deserves more than just me telling her the gist of what happened.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,290
There are a zillion books. I assume a million articles, too. Wiki's bibliography might be a good place to look.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
43,296
I loved the Rick Dalton parts of the movie, the attention to detail, I think my favourite scene was with Cliff and Rick watching his episode. Would of loved some more developmet of Cliff, see him do a stunt, make him a bit more fleshed out, (didnt like the Bruce Lee scene) maybe the longer cut will help.

In keeping with the ending, why wasn't Manson a part of the ending? I was waiting for him to show up. Thought could of gone something like this:

Ricky on seeing the girl smash through the door and go into the pool, panics and runs off.
The girl in the pool gets killed by Cliff in some crazy way, like a crossbow?
Cut to that girl that drove off back with Charles Manson forcing her up the path at gunpoint and meets the guy at Sharon Tate's gate. Tense stand off he gets him to open the gate. Charles goes to light a cigarette.
'Hey, buddy!, Need a light?!'
Cut to Rick behind him with the flame thrower, WOOOOSH!

Not one of his best but still better than most movies out there. I look forward to watching the longer cut.
Because Manson wasn't there the night it happened irl and QT wanted everything up to right before the attack to be historically accurate
 

LabRat

Member
Mar 16, 2018
2,118
i never thought a tarantino movie could bore me, this one definitely did for most of its time though. great acting by everyone, that's one of the only good things i can say about it. definitely his worst movie, even hateful 8 had great pacing compared to this one.
 

munchie64

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,231
Is there a good documentary on the RL murders, or perhaps just a great article about it?

My girlfriend actually didn't know anything about Tate and the murders and was thoroughly lost when watching the film, and I think the story is bizarre enough that it deserves more than just me telling her the gist of what happened.
I would recommend listening to "You Must Remember This" Podcast's Manson series.
 

Batatina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,700
Edinburgh, UK
Just finished watching this one. I thought it was very slow, I was bored by the side-bits inside movies. It feels like that was put there for the amusement of the director, not the audience.

Ultimately the ending saves it from being completely pointless, but in geral I was disappointed. It’s my least favourite Tarantino movie, but that’s okay - this one just wasn’t made for me.
 

Sems4arsenal

Member
Apr 7, 2019
769
Yeah, I needed to know the actual story before seeing this. I was almost going to sleep in the first half. Knowing the story would've made me intrigued a bit.

But wtf is that pacing? The amount of time spent showing people literally drive around is mind blowing. The ending saved this movie, but I wouldn't recommend this movie to anyone at all.
 

True Savior

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,188
wasteland
I don't think I got the movie. Even stylistically I wasn't a big fan. I'll probably need to rewatch it, and read some impressions about it but I think the film doesn't really capture any of the characteristics (i'm missing a word here) of the cinema-setting in which Dalton lives. It felt a bit of a caricature (even himself) which weakens the more dramatic aspect of the story, with a tone Tarntino rarely writes. The whole manson angle is even weirder, there's no correlation (nor the cult is interesting/developed) between the two stories besides the coincidental aspect of the ending (which Dalton alludes to in the beginning), so spending so much time with them (and Sharon) felt a bit trite especially 'cause Tarantino direction handling stuff without wit is always kinda dull.

Brad Pitt plays a cool ass bad motherfucker. It's hard not to like Cliff Booth, he's the one that stays with you after the film ends. He's a cool ass bad motherfucker, and Pitt is suave as fuck.
 
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hasan114

Member
Oct 30, 2017
125
So far my least favourite of his movies. Even though the acting was great, it felt aimless and had none of the tension that is so characteristic of Tarantino’s films.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,144
This is the kind of stuff that makes me wonder how much of this movie completely went over my head. Maybe I'm too young.

I mostly found it meandering and a little overly indulgent (even for Tarantino). Plus, his foot fetish has gotten way out of hand. Great acting though.
Well at least we didn't have to watch him blowing a foot in this movie.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,288
This is the kind of stuff that makes me wonder how much of this movie completely went over my head. Maybe I'm too young.

I mostly found it meandering and a little overly indulgent (even for Tarantino). Plus, his foot fetish has gotten way out of hand. Great acting though.
I don't understand who is even supposed to get references to a random ass episode of a Dick Wolf show from the 60s.
I mean, I'm sure it's super cool to people who remember that episode, but if this anything other than an easter egg for old people, I think it's way too obtuse.
 

Moppeh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,088
Finally saw it for a second time last night.

Like many others, I initially found it slow and meandering but still ended up loving it after my first watch. On my second viewing, time flew by at absolutely startling pace. It really benefits the film to go in aware of its weird pacing and smash cuts. Originally, I had thought the film was a little overstuffed but now I don't know if I'd cut anything. There are a few scenes that aren't completely necessary, but they aid in establishing the vibe and the sense of place. Bring on the director's cut!
 

JS3DX

Member
Feb 15, 2018
71
I wasn't expecting anything from Tarantino in this particular movie, but it ended up being a weird mix between 'relaxing' and... a videogame plot? I don't know why, but everything in this (the characters, the setting, tone, the direction, the plot, the violent ending) seemed like something straight out of GTA, and I did enjoy it because of it!

My only real critique is the runtime, which by the time of the Italian trip was getting too long for its own good.
 

shaneo632

Member
Oct 29, 2017
14,114
Essex, UK
Just saw it a second time after my first viewing a few weeks ago was ruined by a cinema full of fucking shitheads. Had a really respectful and quiet crowd this time, enjoyed the film so much more as I could actually pay attention to the nuances and just relax and soak in the experience a lot better.
 

amanset

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,211
Finally saw it this evening.

A self indulgent mess of a film that was badly in need of an editor. Goes along with my long held belief that Tarantino can't write for shit anymore (maybe when out of his comfort zone) but is a decent director who really needs to direct someone else's script
 

blitzblake

Member
Jan 4, 2018
1,885
This is the kind of stuff that makes me wonder how much of this movie completely went over my head. Maybe I'm too young.

I mostly found it meandering and a little overly indulgent (even for Tarantino). Plus, his foot fetish has gotten way out of hand. Great acting though.
Too many fucking gross foot faux pas.. the feet on the windscreen really got me.
 
Dec 31, 2017
3,223
Finally saw it, really liked it. Have to sit on it for a few days to fully appreciate it but here are a few things:

1) the setting and portrayal of 60s hollywood feels incredibly authentic
2) Love all the research that went into the movie, so many little nods and references
3) The criticism of a lack of "narrative" in the first half or so is understandable, but I think the final hour melds it all together really well. I think if you go into it knowing that it isn't a plot driven film, you'll enjoy it far more.
4) The ending was incredibly cathartic
5) Dicaprio kills it as always
6) The tate scenes at first were confusing, but in combination with the ending I think make a lot of sense

Tarantino does it again.
 

uncelestial

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,795
San Francisco, CA, USA
Pretty sick of the "foot fetish" complaints. A) He denies it, so think about what you're doing accusing someone of having a fetish they don't have, b) there was no gratuitous foot action of any kind, that's just you being weird.
 

Freddy=Legend

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,025
I don't understand who is even supposed to get references to a random ass episode of a Dick Wolf show from the 60s.
I mean, I'm sure it's super cool to people who remember that episode, but if this anything other than an easter egg for old people, I think it's way too obtuse.
I think it would've been more of an easter egg before Burt passed away as he was originally set to portray Spahn in the film. So it was likely originally intended as a nod to him.
 

DeathyBoy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,814
Under my Hela Hela
I don't understand who is even supposed to get references to a random ass episode of a Dick Wolf show from the 60s.
I mean, I'm sure it's super cool to people who remember that episode, but if this anything other than an easter egg for old people, I think it's way too obtuse.
It’s there for four reasons.

1) It’s a cool Easter egg.
2) It subtly reinforces the alternate history theme.
3) Tarantino loves old TV and films
4) it was originally a brick joke.

But mostly it’s the second part. Reinforcing the fact that this isn’t quite how things happened serves as foreshadowing for the end the film.
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,684
Cambridge, UK
I saw this the other day in a lunchtime matinee. It was I think the fourth week of release in the UK and there were maybe 5 people in a small room at Vue, which mean big comfy recliners. One person behind me was snoring after about 20 mins (not judging i fall asleep during movies at night).

I really enjoyed it. It feels different from other Tarantino films. Apart from that amazing scene at the end, there's not really that much action. But it's a great acting job from De Caprio. Not sure Brad Pitt is doing much more than being Brad Pitt. Robbie was great as always.

It's definitely melancholic for the most part and that sense Di Caprio has of being a has been or past his prime resonated with me. I could have done without some of the tortuous scenes of his guest shot but by the end, it all fitted together nicely.

Slightly confused by the ending rewriting history but since it is Once Upon A Time in Hollywood, of course its a fairy tale. Maybe QT can kick off a Sharon Tate Lives cinematic universe.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,288
It’s there for four reasons.

1) It’s a cool Easter egg.
2) It subtly reinforces the alternate history theme.
3) Tarantino loves old TV and films
4) it was originally a brick joke.

But mostly it’s the second part. Reinforcing the fact that this isn’t quite how things happened serves as foreshadowing for the end the film.
Yeah, but who is supposed to get that?
Seriously, did you remember that episode?
Did you understand it's a shot for shot remake?

Is any of that work if you don't go and read about it on the internet? It didn't work for me.

It's not like FBI is this great forgotten gem that by referencing a new generation will grow to appreciate.
 

DeathyBoy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,814
Under my Hela Hela
Yeah, but who is supposed to get that?
Seriously, did you remember that episode?
Did you understand it's a shot for shot remake?

Is any of that work if you don't go and read about it on the internet? It didn't work for me.

It's not like FBI is this great forgotten gem that by referencing a new generation will grow to appreciate.
Well, clearly enough people did get it. Shit, I got it, and I’ve never seen an episode of the show. There’s nothing wrong with not getting it, but you don’t have to justify it to us as some indecipherable moment in the film.
 

CoolestSpot

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
16,147
I also hate the idea that period piece films or settings have to call back things the general populace gets. Like do we want to be regulating the same pop culture that the public knows on surface level, or actucally explore and have fun with the era? Like shit I didnt know all the bits in this (I thought the girl was some actress thatd must've gone on to be famous and I'd missed it) but that's part of the fun and interesting part of project like this.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,288
I also hate the idea that period piece films or settings have to call back things the general populace gets. Like do we want to be regulating the same pop culture that the public knows on surface level, or actucally explore and have fun with the era? Like shit I didnt know all the bits in this (I thought the girl was some actress thatd must've gone on to be famous and I'd missed it) but that's part of the fun and interesting part of project like this.
I can only speak about myself and the way I enjoy watching movies - if it's a reference I had to read about in the internet, it usually does very little to my enjoyment of the film.
Now I don't expect do get everything in a movie, I was really just wondering who is supposed to get this reference?
It felt super esoteric and something that I would imagine about zero people in my screening got.

Also, I think a scene should stand on its own. For example, the stairway shootout in The Untouchable is great even if you never heard of Battleship Potemkin, but if you do, it plays with your expectations and actually elevate that scene.

This thing?
It's a shot for shot remake of a random ass Dick Wolf show that I refuse to believe anyone would have consider remarkable on any level if it wasn't in this film. It went for pretty long too.
And to be clear, it's not a big deal on its own, but you know, I used to be able to get quite a few of Tarantino's references in his early movies, but as his career progressed he got more and more esoteric. Donno, maybe it's 2deep4me, but I like it more when I understand a movie when I see than when I have to go and have it explained to me on the internet.
 

she_esh

Member
Sep 12, 2018
9,218
Ireland
I don't think you need to get the references to enjoy it, the movie is just putting you in a place and time with showing the pop culture being a big part of it. Like even the Bounty Law stuff functions as introducing what Rick is known for and the FBI episode is all about bonding with them getting a kick out of the show. Thoroughly had fun with it all.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
43,296
I can only speak about myself and the way I enjoy watching movies - if it's a reference I had to read about in the internet, it usually does very little to my enjoyment of the film.
Now I don't expect do get everything in a movie, I was really just wondering who is supposed to get this reference?
It felt super esoteric and something that I would imagine about zero people in my screening got.

Also, I think a scene should stand on its own. For example, the stairway shootout in The Untouchable is great even if you never heard of Battleship Potemkin, but if you do, it plays with your expectations and actually elevate that scene.

This thing?
It's a shot for shot remake of a random ass Dick Wolf show that I refuse to believe anyone would have consider remarkable on any level if it wasn't in this film. It went for pretty long too.
And to be clear, it's not a big deal on its own, but you know, I used to be able to get quite a few of Tarantino's references in his early movies, but as his career progressed he got more and more esoteric. Donno, maybe it's 2deep4me, but I like it more when I understand a movie when I see than when I have to go and have it explained to me on the internet.
Again Burt Reynolds was supposed to be in the film so it was just a nice nod to him initially, and then it just became a neat thing, because that's what it is a neat thing.

And ultimately it could have been a fake episode too, it wasn't there because of the fun easter egg, that was just a bonus, it was there because it's what helped get Dalton the Italian gig, and it was just a way of showing/implying a moment where all the characters in the film (most of them) were all doing the same thing, watching FBI at 9pm, and it was another nice character moment between Dalton/Booth after the long day they had, just a moment to show them hanging out, to reinfroce that these guys are good friends with each other.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,290
I enjoyed the veracity of the FBI sequence. I didn't need to know that it was a shot-for-shot remake, but it's neat that it is. It's great if somebody knows it, but it 100% works even if they don't. Which is how easter eggs should work-- not leaving out people just for not knowing a reference.

There's a reference in IT Chapter 2, to a famous 1980s horror shot/line. It was fun if you got it, but worked fine if you didn't.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,867
I feel like the "who would even get this?" type references are part of the fun of QT films. How many people who saw Kill Bill also Lady Snowblood? How many who saw Django Unchained even knew there was a Django from 50 years prior? How many who saw Jacky Brown had ever heard of Pam Grier much less seen Coffy, et al.? How many would know that the knock-off spaghetti western and crime movies Rick stars in are themselves knock-offs of real-life knock-off spaghetti western and crime movies? I imagine a relatively small percentage of the population walks out of a QT film knowing what he's referencing, or how, or why, but it's fun for those that do. And even if you don't get every single reference, or even any of them, I would think that kind of reverential love for his own favorite movies and tv shows helps add to the verisimilitude of the whole thing.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,288
I feel like the "who would even get this?" type references are part of the fun of QT films. How many people who saw Kill Bill also Lady Snowblood? How many who saw Django Unchained even knew there was a Django from 50 years prior? How many who saw Jacky Brown had ever heard of Pam Grier much less seen Coffy, et al.? How many would know that the knock-off spaghetti western and crime movies Rick stars in are themselves knock-offs of real-life knock-off spaghetti western and crime movies? I imagine a relatively small percentage of the population walks out of a QT film knowing what he's referencing, or how, or why, but it's fun for those that do. And even if you don't get every single reference, or even any of them, I would think that kind of reverential love for his own favorite movies and tv shows helps add to the verisimilitude of the whole thing.
Lady Snowblood is a pretty well known film for people who are into that shit. Likewise, I think a lot of movie fans heard and probably seen Pam Grier, Game of Death, Spaghetti Westerns, Mean Streets etc. And people that haven't, well, they are in for a treat because those are pretty great movies.
I think there's a difference between that and making deep, long references to movies like Twisted Nerve or Vanishing Point, which is to me is more like making a movie in 30 years with deep references to Olympus has Fallen.

This is obviously is all subjective, and it hinges heavily on your opinion of the films he's referencing, but hey, we're talking about art here, it's subjectivity all the way down.
 

Sage

Member
Oct 27, 2017
382
Japan
Saw this last night - still thinking about it.

Though I swear the scene with Cliff harpooning his wife talked about here was not in it.. Around when in the movie is the flashback?
Can anyone confirm if it was cut from the Japanese or any other international versions? Wonder why..
 

ZackieChan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,759
This definitely has my favorite song mix of any Tarantino movie.

Weird that Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show isn't included on the soundtrack.
It’s in the versions I’ve seen (possibly just fan playlists) on Spotify.
Pretty sick of the "foot fetish" complaints. A) He denies it, so think about what you're doing accusing someone of having a fetish they don't have, b) there was no gratuitous foot action of any kind, that's just you being weird.
Seriously. There’s like 4-5 shots with feet in them in a 3 hour movie. People need to get a grip.
 

Woetyler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,259
Saw this last night - still thinking about it.

Though I swear the scene with Cliff harpooning his wife talked about here was not in it.. Around when in the movie is the flashback?
Can anyone confirm if it was cut from the Japanese or any other international versions? Wonder why..
There's a brief flashback that shows his wife standing up in front of him yelling about wanting to fight, and him having a harpoon gun and beer in hand.
It cuts before anything happens, gives you just enough info to make you think about what happened.