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Is The Last Jedi a good movie?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Not mah Star Wars proceeds to let out a Chewbacca cry


Results are only viewable after voting.

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
It's understandable because it's part of the muddled messaging of the movie. I posted about this earlier but Yoda's scene contributes to the "Destroy the past" narrative that some people took from it, even though Kylo is supposed to be in the wrong.

But I thought that was the message? I distinctly remember people feeling rather smug about how the film's message was meta and was poking fun at fans who couldn't enjoy the new movies because they were too much of a departure from the old ones or something.

I do agree that the movie couldn't make up its mind, though. Luke said the Jedi had to die, Ben wanted to wipe the slate clean of both Jedi and Sith, the bad guys technically weren't Sith even though they totally acted like Sith and then Yoda nukes what little Jedi manuscripts he could find, only for the books to have actually been saved and for Luke to say he wasn't the last Jedi after all.

Personally I would've enjoyed a new direction for the franchise where something new popped up besides Jedi and Sith. The new trilogy has thus far sorely lacked new ideas and that sort of thing would've been just the ticket.
 

Smelck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
898
Rotorua, NZ
Personally I would've enjoyed a new direction for the franchise where something new popped up besides Jedi and Sith. The new trilogy has thus far sorely lacked new ideas and that sort of thing would've been just the ticket.
Agree , I was expecting a 3rd way narrative for TLJ ...something meaningful from Luke's years in self enforced isolation...but nope. Would have been cool imo
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,806
The internet wasn't around in 1980, so you really have no idea how divisive TESB was compared to TLJ given you had almost no access to the opinions of moviegoers as you do now. Also, I'm not sure how a 9 year old can possibly determine or understand how divisive a movie is at release time. Lastly, your final point is just your opinion disguised as some prediction of fact when the opposite could just as easily be true. The massive critical praise and financial success of the movie probably means your prediction will be wrong.
I didn't need the internet to read magazines or newspapers as I was growing up.
You know ... read? On paper?

The whole "ESB was just as divisive" is revisionist history by TLJ fans.
And... my opinion is just my opinion?
No kidding?
So glad you could come up with that!
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
I didn't need the internet to read magazines or newspapers as I was growing up.
You know ... read? On paper?

The whole "ESB was just as divisive" is revisionist history by TLJ fans.
And... my opinion is just my opinion?
No kidding?
So glad you could come up with that!


Huh... I did a google search, between 2000 and 2015, with the words "empire strikes back" and "divisive". This is what came up:

January 23, 2014:

Sitting here in 2014, the 34th year since its release, it can be hard to believe that The Empire Strikes Back wasn't always lauded as the movie masterpiece it clearly is. On the contrary, its arrival back on May 20, 1980, was welcomed with an array of mixed, lukewarm, and indifferent reviews on both sides of the Atlantic from newspapers, magazines, and TV critics alike. But of all the entries in the saga, time has been kindest to Empire's reputation and standing. Not to us fans who have adored the film since its release, but to the wider world who perhaps needed the resolutions brought to us by Return of the Jedi to fully appreciate the nuances and dangers that Empire presented.

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews



May 25, 2010:


Let us put our disdain for the prequels and the special editions to the side for a moment. Let's appreciate and acknowledge the sheer power of the The Empire Strikes Back in all of it's purity. Lucas had created the most affecting kids story of all time, and then turned the tables on his audience. He did so without any malice. The end result initially left people lukewarm, but has since gone on to be regarded as one of, if not the greatest sequel ever made. It is a triumph of artistic vision and storytelling. It manages to immerse it's audience in impenetrable darkness without relying on the crutch of graphic violence.

30 years after the fact, it is easy to forget how bold an endeavor this was. An unhappy ending, a somber mood and a main character that was to be portrayed by a puppet hardly sounds like the makings for a sequel to the Highest grossing film of all time until that point. Empire took all sorts of chances with the good will that was generated by Star Wars. Those chances paid of in grand fashion. The somber mood haunted the dreams of children for years. The unhappy ending left them at the edge of their seats, and that puppet turned out to be the most endearing mentor figure of all time. Was this the result of shrewd calculation, or a case of all the planets being aligned? Usually the greatest things are some combination of both.

Source: http://www.scottsmindfield.com/2010/05/learning-from-losing-life-lessons-of.html


August 28, 2012:

The Empire Strikes Back (1980) has grown steadily in critical esteem since its theatrical debut in 1980. This increase in approval is so dramatic, in fact, that The Empire Strikes Backhas actually eclipsed its blockbuster progenitor from 1977, at least according to some fans and critics.
Yet, if you go back and read the reviews from mainstream newspaper critics in 1980, The Empire Strikes Back received only middling reviews, at least for the most part. The Irvin Kershner film was appreciated for its rousing special effects…and not much else.

Source: http://reflectionsonfilmandtelevisi...08/cult-movie-review-empire-strikes-back.html

And it was so divisive that there was literal TV shows discussing how divisive it was, with critics attacking and defending it (the legends are obviously the ones defending it):



So yeah... revisionist history? HA!
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
What a phenominally misleading video to post in the context of this conversation
The New Yorker critic was hardly alone in his criticism. And what is misleading from you is to handpick one video when I've brought another four articles from before 2015 mentioning how divisive Empire Strikes Back reception was. This isn't news for me, I wasn't even born when Empire Strikes Back was released, but my relatives were always fans and they started me into the Star Wars films very young. The fact that I'm having to prove that TESB had a divisive initial response is sort of hillarious to me, it was basic knowledge ten years ago on Star Wars boards and such.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
The critic doesn't dislike Empire because he doesn't think it lives up to Star Wars, he dislikes it because he never liked Star Wars in the first place

Well one of the reasons I hold TLJ in such high esteem is my general dislike of the franchise, so I don't see what the point you're trying to make is, here.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
The New Yorker critic was hardly alone in his criticism. And what is misleading from you is to handpick one video when I've brought another four articles.

I'm not hand picking anything, I'm letting you and everyone know that the video you posted is improper

Well one of the reasons I hold TLJ in such high esteem is my general dislike of the franchise, so I don't see what the point you're trying to make is, here.

When people say TLJ is divisive, it's my understanding that they usually mean in respect to Star Wars fans, I could be wrong
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,737
The New Yorker critic was hardly alone in his criticism. And what is misleading from you is to handpick one video when I've brought another four articles from before 2015 mentioning how divisive Empire Strikes Back reception was. This isn't news for me, I wasn't even born when Empire Strikes Back was released, but my relatives were always fans and they started me into the Star Wars films very young. The fact that I'm having to prove that TESB had a divisive initial response is sort of hillarious to me, it was basic knowledge ten years ago on Star Wars boards and such.
What I would need to see are non-critic responses to TESB. The Last Jedi critic response was fantastic, and the movie is divisive as hell. The Empire Strikes Back having critics think one way or other doesn't really tell me what the audience at large thought of it. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just of the opinion that the critic's opinions don't give a great view of it. (And I honestly don't know. I was too young at the time).
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
What I would need to see are non-critic responses to TESB. The Last Jedi critic response was fantastic, and the movie is divisive as hell. The Empire Strikes Back having critics think one way or other doesn't really tell me what the audience at large thought of it. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just of the opinion that the critic's opinion don't give a great view of it.

It was divisive, like me and others that are old enough to remember how the film was seen back then can attest to you. Magazines like Starlog are the place you'd go to see reactions, and people were pissed off at the reveal that Luke was Darth Vader's father, especially after the misdirection - quite probably retcon - from Ben Kenobi saying that Vader killed Luke's father in IV.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
It was divisive, like me and others that are old enough to remember how the film was seen back then can attest to you. Magazines like Starlog are the place you'd go to see reactions, and people were pissed off at the reveal that Luke was Darth Vader's father, especially after the misdirection - quite probably retcon - from Ben Kenobi saying that Vader killed Luke's father in IV.

There's a blog post out there that compiles a lot of the reactions and they're pretty similar to the ones you see here. Something to the effect of "What's with all the weird and unresolved plots" and to my mind the money quote of "I liked it. I just didn't like it enough."
 

SweetVermouth

Banned
Mar 5, 2018
4,272
down to the first 15 minutes of A New Hope where for literally no plausible reason they didn't shoot down the escape pod, you know
The reason they didn't do it is literally in the movie. They didn't shoot it because they ran a scan and there were no lifeforms on the escape pod so they assumed it's just a malfunction and they'd probably get in trouble if they just fired at that thing without reason. This explanation is good enough for such a minor plot point.

If that scene happened in TLJ... oh wait I know there is a scene like this in TLJ. Oh well actually it isn't but it should have been there because how the fuck did Rey leave the supremacy and randomly appear on the Falcon again? Oh that's right, Rian Johnson couldn't figure out a way so he just cuts from one scene to the next because yeah that's why.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,971
This is such a fascinating movie! I love it, but I acknowledge the superficial issues Star Wars fans have, the filmmaking missteps, as well as some of the issues it creates with lore or just the idea of some things in Star Wars and how the movie recontextualizes them. I'm not going to dismiss them at all, although I will say this movie has been seen way more effort and time into discussing and criticizing it than any previous Star Wars movie, hell maybe any movie period.

Ultimately, I enjoy the way the movie is subversive. With Finn, with Rey and Kylo, with most of the characters really. I enjoy the idea of Star Wars being free of what the first trilogy and The Force Awakens establishes as what a major entry into the franchise can be similar to what the most recent James Bond films have been in contrast to the rest of the series. TLJ is clunky in that regard at times for sure, but I personally think a great many people are emotionally annoyed by TLJ - with Luke Skywalker's arc being the primary reason - and they retrofit more logical reasons to justify their dislike for the movie. I, on the other hand, emotionally am intrigued by the characterizations and find them complex and so I can forgive some of the issues I have with the film while not deriding others for being unable to get past them. I get it.

I will say The Last Jedi isn't an objectively bad movie as some want to portray it as. That hyperbole really bothers me. Say it's a bad Star Wars movie, although that criticism to me holds no water because a franchise should be able to evolve, but fine. Say it's not an exceptionally well made movie or that it has some tonal issues and pacing problems. But TLJ isn't an objectively poorly made movie unless we are setting the bar very high for what even mediocrity is.

But Star Wars does not engender calm and reasoned discourse lol
 

Disco

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,445
Best blockbuster to come out of Disney since...probably ever for me.

I found the casino subplot to be kinda crap tho, especially on a rewatch. The scenes between Rose and Finn were shite, and there seemed to be no chemistry there either

But the Luke scenes with Rey were gold. Not to mention Driver's Kylo is prolly the best franchise movie villain since Ledgers Joker for me

Picked a great actor for that role.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
wow, that poll is damning lol. So much for the people who don't like it being a loud minority.
This is a forum and the only people that will click on this thread are people who care more than most.

I just clicked on it for the first time and I loved the movie. I didn't see a reason for me to explore the topic again. Those who are still upset about it are far more likely to respond to such a thread and poll than those who enjoyed it are.

They are the vocal minority. And that's okay to understand and admit. Not everything can be for everyone.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,753
The poll is funnier with this in mind



The son of a bitch perfectly succeeded.

Did you just call RJ a son of a bitch? Dude. Let it go. He is an acclaimed successful director. No need to act like he personally hurt you.

I think even the TLJ haters know there is no reasons to personally attack RJ. Everyone agrees he is a great director, not everyone agrees with his story choices. Big difference.

Who isn't excited for the new film Rian Johnson is filming right now with Daniel Craig & Chris Evans for example? That movie sounds awesomne.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
Did you just call RJ a son of a bitch? Dude. Let it go. He is an acclaimed successful director. No need to act like he personally hurt you.

I think even the TLJ haters know there is no reasons to personally attack RJ. Who isn't excited for the new film Rian Johnson is filming right now with Daniel Craig & Chris Evans?

Son of a bitch is a figure of speech, jesus lmao
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,841
People drag that ancient clip out to attack him and Slaythe has some intense anger towards RJ throughout this thread lol

I did not ever attack RJ personally, did I ? Disliking his writing and questioning his skill as a storyteller is literally not the same as attacking him.

I was either gonna say "the son of a bitch" or "the absolute mad man". It's an expression. Like why would I insult his mum ? If I wanted to insult him I'd insult him.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,971
Best blockbuster to come out of Disney since...probably ever for me.

I found the casino subplot to be kinda crap tho, especially on a rewatch. The scenes between Rose and Finn were shite, and there seemed to be no chemistry there either

But the Luke scenes with Rey were gold. Not to mention Driver's Kylo is prolly the best franchise movie villain since Ledgers Joker for me

Picked a great actor for that role.

I definitely think Kylo is a fantastic movie villain that hasn't gotten his due. I've seen people complain that he's emotional unstable and insecure and I'm like yeah that what makes him so great because rarely do villains have flaws that undermine them like that!

Kylo isn't a "cool" movie villain and that's what makes him cool.
 

BigWeather

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,426
The movie and its predecessor have failed to build up the First Order as even a fraction of the threat the Empire was, and the Resistance is similarly podunk. That's my biggest beef with the series so far, it feels so small.
 

Bonefish

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,694
Did you just call RJ a son of a bitch? Dude. Let it go. He is an acclaimed successful director. No need to act like he personally hurt you.

I think even the TLJ haters know there is no reasons to personally attack RJ. Everyone agrees he is a great director, not everyone agrees with his story choices. Big difference.

Who isn't excited for the new film Rian Johnson is filming right now with Daniel Craig & Chris Evans for example? That movie sounds awesomne.
that's pretty funny
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,841
I definitely think Kylo is a fantastic movie villain that hasn't gotten his due. I've seen people complain that he's emotional unstable and insecure and I'm like yeah that what makes him so great because rarely do villains have flaws that undermine them like that!

Kylo isn't a "cool" movie villain and that's what makes him cool.

I think Kylo was extremely poor in TFA but sort of a blank state. Literally saved by Adam.

The first 2/3 of TLJ were fantastic for Kylo. Really fleshed him out and gave him some needed depth, also felt like the events of TFA had a real impact on him.

It has been an extreme disappointment to see him throw out all his character development to revert back to a murderous unstable 12 years old by the end abruptly. :/ Also a total lack of credibility as the final villain considering his actual track record.
 

Casualcore

Member
Jul 25, 2018
1,301
I enjoyed it a lot. It took me several tries to choke down JJ's Star Trek reboot, so it'll be the only one of this trilogy I'll see, and I'm okay with that.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
The reason they didn't do it is literally in the movie. They didn't shoot it because they ran a scan and there were no lifeforms on the escape pod so they assumed it's just a malfunction and they'd probably get in trouble if they just fired at that thing without reason. This explanation is good enough for such a minor plot point.

If that scene happened in TLJ... oh wait I know there is a scene like this in TLJ. Oh well actually it isn't but it should have been there because how the fuck did Rey leave the supremacy and randomly appear on the Falcon again? Oh that's right, Rian Johnson couldn't figure out a way so he just cuts from one scene to the next because yeah that's why.

She took Snoke's ship and rendezvoused with Chewie. We really didn't need a scene showing that.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
The reason they didn't do it is literally in the movie. They didn't shoot it because they ran a scan and there were no lifeforms on the escape pod so they assumed it's just a malfunction and they'd probably get in trouble if they just fired at that thing without reason. This explanation is good enough for such a minor plot point.
They'd be in trouble for firing at an escape pod just to make sure? Considering the empires ruthlessness that's a huge doubt.jpg

If that scene happened in TLJ... oh wait I know there is a scene like this in TLJ. Oh well actually it isn't but it should have been there because how the fuck did Rey leave the supremacy and randomly appear on the Falcon again? Oh that's right, Rian Johnson couldn't figure out a way so he just cuts from one scene to the next because yeah that's why.
So I take it you stopped paying attention to the dialogue?
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,254
This doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

Why not? Whether you like The Last Jedi or not, the fact it's so divisive (the poll above is a good sample size and basically an even split) is what drives everyone to talk about it so much. If that's what Rian Johnson wanted then he did indeed succeed and The Last Jedi will be the movie out of the trilogy that folks will talk about most, if only because nobody can agree on whether or not what he was trying to do with the movie actually worked.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,711
If you're asking this question you'd probably struggle with the film.
Come on now, no need for that kind of elitist comment. A vast majority of the viewing audience probably has no idea what the fuck "deconstruction" is. Not knowing that doesn't mean they're stupid and can't figure out TLJ. Not being able to articulate something doesn't mean you don't "get it".
 
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