Films that seek to examine and deconstruct tropes have been around for ages. But sometimes it highkey feels like TLJ was a portion of the audience's first exposure with such a concept
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
One Year Later - 'The Last Jedi: The Power of Story'
- Thread starter Flow
- Start date
Take Cabin in the Woods for example as a deconstruction of horror movies. The basic premise is a group of college kids go a a cabin to party and an entity starts killing them. Super familiar right? You have the jock character, the nerd character, all of them. You have a creepy guy on the way to the cabin and a character finds an evil mcguffin (multiple, actually) that seemingly would set things in motion - such as reading Latin from a grotesque book. It has all of these superficial trappings of a horror movie. However...
The idea behind Cabin in the Woods is these horror things are all planted. Gases are pumped into the cabin to alter the moods of the characters. Creepy objects are put in place. Monsters and whatnot are unleashed on these kids, why? Because a bureaucratic government agency needs to sacrifice kids to prevent evil from getting out...but instead of it being presented in a stark, overly-important way it's literally like an office bet. It's just a hassle to them.
And beyond that, the characters subvert expectations. The jock, played by Thor, is something like a biology major (something meant to imply he's very smart), the nerd is a pothead, stuff like that.
Basically a deconstruction takes the familiar elements of a genre and uses them to re-evaluate them. Sometimes this leads to a movie using some tropes to establish an aesthetic or atmosphere similar to others in the genre, but vital to the point is subverting expectations on what will happen or what something is meant to represent. In a way it's not too dissimilar to satire.
Y'all can't believe how much eye rolling this kind of claims are. "Marvel films with 90% scores should be 20% less!", "DC films should be 20% more!". Dat sjw agenda amirite. Gah.
This place is filled with people that aren't liberal AT ALL. This and several threads were toxicity runs rampant are proof. And yes, ResetEra is a progressive minded board, and I'm proud of it. Clearly, that's not the case of several people that still come to post here.
You're not recognising TLJ as the avant-garde arthouse film that it is
It's wrong to compare Johnson to the likes of Lucas and Abrams, his work is more remniniscent of Jodorowsky and Brakhage
Last edited:
Why not? Point being there is an explanation.
Yeah she just stole Snokes ship no big deal its not as if that thing would be watched and protected by some guards or whatnot. You're literally more OK with the nonsensical throwaway line in TLJ than the at least kind of believable scene in ANH which had someone thinking about the question "wouldn't someone notice somebody escaped with the pod". You have an explanation in ANH, you have nothing in TLJ yet people still defend this garbage writing.
There's an explanation for both that border on contrivance.
Yea I'm sure the guards could do something about a ship flying away in the middle of recovering from an attack that literally tore their ship in half and compromised it. How is it a throwaway line, it literally explains why she's in the falcon at the next scene, we see her say she'll contact Chewie before she goes on Snokes ship.
You mean the guards that Rey and Kylo just killed? Did you miss the ship and most of the fleet get torn in half? What do you think an escape craft is for?
"Guys, why aren't the storm troopers shooting Luke while he carries a wounded Vader. Like who cares if the space craft they're in is literally exploding around them."
Man , why are you so angry and fixated on calling everyone out , when tbh I've not really seen any "agenda" driven posts in this thread (and no Im not denying that it doesnt exist)
Because they would show how she managed to do it if it wasn't. Johnson had no idea how to get Rey back on the Falcon. How does this line explain how she managed to steal the shuttle of the leader of the First Order.
By the same logic you could have never shown how 3PO and R2 escaped and just have them say "oh we used a shuttle" when they met Luke. It explains nothing but it's important because they're fleeing from the antagonists. Sometimes it's important how person got from A to B.
In his defense, the post he's replying to explicitly references the liberal nature of this board and assumes that this liberal bent makes the film more liked here than in the outside world.
Haven't read enough of the thread to comment about his other posts, but at least here it seems warranted.
It's death by a thousand cuts.
We have a contrived scenario where the good guys can't get away but the bad guys can't shoot them either. Except the good guys can actually come and go incredibly easily if the story needs them to as we see with Rey/Chewie and Finn/Rose. The FO are so inept they have incredible tunnel vision to the extent that they apparently wouldn't notice a caravan of ships heading down to the big planet that conveniently has an old function resistance base as they pass nearby. Etc.
There's only so much of that kind of stuff you can swallow before your brain starts to resist.
I'm just saying that claiming that this is a progressive only or even liberal only joint is flat out bullshit. Of course that there are a lot of valid criticisms to be made about The Last Jedi or any given film really, but this underdog complex of some that "reviewers give scores too much high to Star Wars and Marvel films" is bullshit. The alt-right folk feast on this kind of non-sense, and it deserves to be called out. I don't really think that there's any "agenda" driven posts here on the thread, but there's a lot of posts that keep hammering criticisms that a lot of the alt-right types cling to:
- Rey is a Mary Sue
- Reviewers rank Star Wars films too high
- The poll being divided should be 80-20 negative because
It might be unconscious, but these are the - pretty fucking bad - arguments that a lot of alt right folk keep hammering on outside here. And I think that while you can definitely dislike any film, maybe don't use bad and shallow arguments that those types use might be a good idea.
Fair enough ...more a tone thing. I get he's a staunch defender of this movie...fine with that, but crikey he can be rather win at all costs and very passive aggresive.
But all good, it was actually good to be in a TLJ thread where most ofvthe debate was civil and non accusatory...its just a movie at the end if the day :-)
I always enjoyed Star Wars, I always liked it, but The Last Jedi is the first one I've actually loved. The essay in the OP does an excellent job of explaining why for me. It's a much more ambitious film and one that reaches deeper, and it succeeds in being a much stronger and more resonating tale of the power of storytelling by questioning the nature of our stories with greater honestly. Yep, I love it.
This movie is so fucking bad. My 2 biggest gripes (of a list of many) are that it did nothing to resolve my 2 biggest questions from the first movie. 1. What's the deal with Rey and 2. Who the fuck is snoke / the first order and how did they come to power?
After TFA everyone said it will be explained in time. In TLJ snoak fucking dies and we still know nothing about Rey. What a fucking joke.
You can't reboot a series 30 years on and give us scraps for a backstory about the new bad guys and nothing on the main character. I read Rian Johnson pretty much ignored TFA. This is unacceptable Disney! Here is where you get a new director!
Disney have ruined star wars for me and they aren't getting another cent of mine. Which is sad as a big part of my childhood revolved around the originals.
After TFA everyone said it will be explained in time. In TLJ snoak fucking dies and we still know nothing about Rey. What a fucking joke.
You can't reboot a series 30 years on and give us scraps for a backstory about the new bad guys and nothing on the main character. I read Rian Johnson pretty much ignored TFA. This is unacceptable Disney! Here is where you get a new director!
Disney have ruined star wars for me and they aren't getting another cent of mine. Which is sad as a big part of my childhood revolved around the originals.
I hear you.....and I understand. As I said above it might just be me reading , but your tone is not great at times ..
Going home to rewatch TLJ .. see if I can work in some love :-)
He wasn't saying there weren't bad apples around here.
He was saying it's way worse elsewhere. And he's correct.
This is a ResetEra classic video by now, but it has truly aged well:
If you haven't seen it, I'd highly recommend a watch. Jenny Nicholson is amazing.
how is The Last Jedi even a "liberal" movie? i really don't understand that mindset, it's a movie about magical space battles
i've never heard an answer to this question
- Snoke dying
- Kylo is a bad bad person
- Nothing changing
- Rey's parents are nobodies
- Luke trying to kill Kylo
- Leia using the force
- Holdo not telling Poe
- Kid with broom
- Casino sub plot
- Not being as good as Rogue one She does a good job on each point. I recommend watching it.
Because FEMALE PROTAGONIST. General Holdo. Etc.. The horror.
i definitely enjoyed The Last Jedi, but i also love deconstructive media in general, so it was right up my alley
it's fine for people to dislike a movie and there are definitely elements of The Last Jedi such as its pacing that, while i enjoyed, i can see why others may dislike
but it's the ridiculous talk about it being "liberal" that should be mocked
that's definitely the *real* reason people say that
but i wanna hear if anyone who genuinely believes that can actually make that case without having to resort to explicitly complaining that the female characters are too competent
my bet is on "no, they can't"
it's fine for people to dislike a movie and there are definitely elements of The Last Jedi such as its pacing that, while i enjoyed, i can see why others may dislike
but it's the ridiculous talk about it being "liberal" that should be mocked
that's definitely the *real* reason people say that
but i wanna hear if anyone who genuinely believes that can actually make that case without having to resort to explicitly complaining that the female characters are too competent
my bet is on "no, they can't"
Last edited:
He literally wrote the plot of how she got back to the falcon, literally when it came to her planning on doing so and straight up stating how she would and had the charcters explicitly state how she got away. It's basic film storytelling to not show literally every action a character makes. What you're essentially arguing is that how do we know how a character walked through a door if we never saw them open it all the way.
From some comments I've seen in past threads, it has to do with one character being a strong woman in charge of the military that also has her hair died purple, and some other nonsense about how the movie is "anti-men" in general.
Your bet would be right on the money. I remember the latest one I saw finally copped a ban when he referred to Holdo as "PC Principle from southpark".
what does that have to do with my post? cos she didnt like some of the same things?
How would the first order know about the military base? And literally Finn and rose escaping makes just as much sense as Rey's. Hello, the ship was literally exploding.
No, she explains the top 10 worst reasons to dislike the film. She does an excellent job explaining why those complaints are dumb.
instead of posting a 20 minute video from some youtuber, why dont you tell me why my thoughts are dumb?
Last edited:
I believe he is referring to Finn and Rose being able to leave the Raddus on the escape shuttle.
also if you call Rey a "Mary Sue" you have to turn in your pedantry licence and are banned from nitpicking, because "Mary Sue" is a fan-fiction term for a blatant self-insert main character latching onto the existing main cast through their melodramatic tragic past
the proper term in this case would be "Canon Sue", and even then it doesn't fit
Rey being a force-sensitive woman with no ties to the existing cast who developed their skills growing up on an inhospitable planet is the opposite of a "Mary Sue" - it's a statement that anyone has the potential to become the hero of the Rebellion no matter what their bloodline is because if a random survivalist from a backwater junkertown with recurring personality flaws can try their hardest at it, then so can you
that's also the point of the scene where the boy force-pulls the broom - he could have been the hero of the Rebellion in another timeline! wow, the power to do great things is in all of us, not just one person from the sacred bloodline
the moral of the story is that the real "Mary Sue" was inside of us all along!
the proper term in this case would be "Canon Sue", and even then it doesn't fit
Rey being a force-sensitive woman with no ties to the existing cast who developed their skills growing up on an inhospitable planet is the opposite of a "Mary Sue" - it's a statement that anyone has the potential to become the hero of the Rebellion no matter what their bloodline is because if a random survivalist from a backwater junkertown with recurring personality flaws can try their hardest at it, then so can you
that's also the point of the scene where the boy force-pulls the broom - he could have been the hero of the Rebellion in another timeline! wow, the power to do great things is in all of us, not just one person from the sacred bloodline
the moral of the story is that the real "Mary Sue" was inside of us all along!
Here, I'll summarize the first argument for you since its the only one I watched.
"Snoke being irrelevant is actually good because it subverts your expectations. Subverting your expectations is good because game of thrones did it."
You're not understanding. I'm not saying anything about the FO knowing about a base, I'm talking about how the story relies on there being an incredibly convenient planet and functional abandoned base in the path of their inescapable chase. I'm not talking about Finn and Rose getting off Snoke's ship, I'm talking about how the story relies on letting characters effortlessly leave this perilous chase whenever needed like if they need to take a breather at a casino or pop in and drop Rey off without a sweat, etc.
Stuff like the story setting it up that they're so desperate they need to travel to said casino planet to find the uber rare master code breaker and how screwed they are to get thrown into jail before completing their task only to find out a second later that apparently master code breakers are a dime a dozen since they conveniently landed in the same cell as one.
I'm talking about how inorganic the storytelling is.
Despite being aware of the terms that you are talking about and their meanings, seeing female Star Wars fans taking down this argument is absolutely glorious:
It's crazy that we are in December, 2018 and we are STILL having to discuss this bullshit. These two videos were literally posted ten days ago.
(Nevermind the fact that at least one of the ladies seems like a Reylo fan and is saying some weird af shit).
Last edited:
This is large part on why the FO acting dumb for dumb sakes gets tiring in this movie. We have them shooting at a stationary base first in the opening scene leaving the fleet of resistance ships alone. Then there is the bit of Finn dragging Rose across the FO lines on Crait without any of the FO seeing them. Their blunders just exist. Take for example in RO where in each engagement the offer class of the Imperial forces always hesitates, which they go to great lengths to show that offers of the Empire spend most of their time making powerplays or being involved in high life parties. RO also goes to show the difference between the low level troops of the Empire who are hardened troops and actually good in combat. Hell, TFA does this showing a FO force that is specialized (flame troopers, LMG troopers, riot troops etc) and well trained and disciplined. TLJ just displays the FO as a set piece making blunders for blundering sake which cheapens the whole aspect of a supposed force that is in process of conquering the galaxy.
subverting your expectations is actually good because Neon Genesis Evangelion did it, you baka!!~~
personally, i thought Snoke was a supremely boring character, basically just the bland personification of evil that existed solely to be the final boss in the struggle between capital-G Good and capital-E Evil - i greatly enjoy the twist that he does not have Plot Armor and the direction the series is going now that the evil empire is without a competent leader
that, to me, is more interesting than retreading the same ground with a knock-off lower quality Palpatine
Last edited:
But now we're just retreading what the last two movies did in that they've kicked Kylo's ass two times in a row already and will have to do it one final time
Both involved cloaking tech that Rose developed. And both were incredibly risky as far as the resistance was concerned.
An incredibly convenient planet? They literally were flying towards the planet during the entire film. That was ALWAYS the plan as soon as Holdo took charge. She just told people who were on a need to know basis, (that excludes Poe).
Chewie literally went back into hyperspace the second Rey was dropped off.
Who kicked Kylo's ass in TLJ? He would've won that battle at crait if it weren't for Luke and Luke never touched him.
yeah, this is one of the flaws i find in the movie - mostly disappointing because it seemed like the classic Stormtrooper Marksmanship trope of the evil forces blundering at convenient times was going to be averted, but i guess it was still necessary to bridge some of the scenes together
i think Kylo's descent into madness at the helm and how it will effect the First Order is more interesting than just fighting him as Snoke's dragon
it'd be interesting to see how General Hux plays into all of this too - will he wrest control of the First Order away from Kylo by appealing to the crew? Kylo is no Darth Vader, and he doesn't have that "mandate" of leadership
I agree with this, honestly I'm really glad that Kylo is in charge, because he doesn't have the calculation/cool control that vader had, which makes an internal power struggle more likely and that would be interesting.
Vader killed Obi-Wan in A New Hope and cut Luke's hand in the first two films. Kylo killed Han in A Force Awakens and then got owned by Luke after betraying Snoke. We are not retreading waters, this is uncharted territory in the Star Wars universe, which definitely and desperately needs to expand.
I would be happier if some wild card comes in or hux has a surprise in store. I'm just not excited for Kylo to lose a third time. He's been physically and mentally dominated the past two films respectively so I just don't feel intimidated by him
It's been awhile since I've seen the video, but I think it goes more like "Snoke doesn't matter and was never anything more than a McGuffin. Snoke served his purpose (corrupting Kylo and stitching his and Rey's consciousness together), and that's all he's needed for. Including the origin of Snoke would just detract and distract from the rest of the movie. We don't need answers to everything, and erasing Snoke to give Kylo the reins is the best choice for Kylo's arc.
But sure, we'll call it subversion because subversion. Why not.
I wasn't comparing to the last trilogy
I'm saying they've already had the Kylo boss fight and he lost both times so I'm not excited for him to lose again. He just doesn't have that intimidation for the third movie for me.
"Expand" the SW universe by resetting back to ANH, they even go back to being called "Rebels" and the FO is now the Empire...again. TLJ does more to restrict the universe back stripping away tertiary characters and defining SW as Rebels vs Empire which is the most boring way to do it. The relationship between Rey and Kylo is static Hux is ruined this movie as possible foil for Commander Poe and Finn defeats his foil. There was so much more leeway to expand beyond Rebels v Empire after TFA with the FO being a nebulous group made from remnants of Empire and being forged in the Outer Rim by a mysterious benefactor. TLJ leads us back to a place where we have been.
my prediction is that the "final boss" of the trilogy will be the First Order as a whole going berserk after both Kylo and General Hux fail them miserably
maybe something along the lines of Rey and Kylo having their climactic battle early on in the film, but a series of events happens that leads to Kylo dying in a way somehow caused by the out-of-control First Order to send a message about demagogues losing control of the monsters they create