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One Year Later - 'The Last Jedi: The Power of Story'
- Thread starter Flow
- Start date
My favorite Star Wars movie. It's clear that Rian Johnson loves and knows SW inside out and I think the movie will only grow in esteem as the years pass.
I thought it was the best Star Wars film after I left the theatre.
I now think there's a lot of major missteps and it may have single handedly ruined the sequels chances to be great.
It also makes me stone cold for Episode IX.
If The First Order couldn't defeat the remaining rebel's here then they're doomed. And if Rey could beat Kylo with no lightsaber training she'll be invincible next time they meet.
I now think there's a lot of major missteps and it may have single handedly ruined the sequels chances to be great.
It also makes me stone cold for Episode IX.
If The First Order couldn't defeat the remaining rebel's here then they're doomed. And if Rey could beat Kylo with no lightsaber training she'll be invincible next time they meet.
I liked the film quite a bit. The one thing that makes me chuckle though, is that the heroes are now 30 odd years removed from the Battle of Endor, and they find themselves in a worse position than they were at the start of a New Hope. Whoever was in charge of the post war effort after the Return of the Jedi, dropped the ball significantly to allow things to get to where they ended up. It's almost like WWI to WWII. Someone fucked up after the win.
The messages of this film are still particularly resonant and it'll take awhile for a large section of the fanbase to come to terms and accept them.
This is quite literally part of the backstory yea.
The main lot with Rey, Luke, and Kylo was good. Fin and Rose needed more time and not be hampered by the ticking clock. Poe needed to be locked up for life for all the shit he pulled. So many people needlessly died for his life lesson. I liked the idea and resolution of fleet dilemma- but it had hugh negatives for Finn and Poe's arcs.
Still a good popcorn flick, but I do hope the work on arc pacing in the future.
Still a good popcorn flick, but I do hope the work on arc pacing in the future.
1/3 of a good film. Anything involving Rey, Luke, or Kylo Ren was great.
The other 2/3 involved cliched plots - dumbing down existing characters, the most artificial conflict ever imaginable on the level of a soap opera, and a plot that will essentially be forgotten in the next movie.
It didn't challenge anything - it didn't change anything in the overall universe. As of Episode IX - as everyone predicted - both the Resistance and the First Order are back with the same level of forces for what will no doubt be a climactic final battle...
I vehemently disagree with this article -and the media in general when it comes to this film. Rogue One is a better movie, the first and only time I will ever say that about a prequel film.
The other 2/3 involved cliched plots - dumbing down existing characters, the most artificial conflict ever imaginable on the level of a soap opera, and a plot that will essentially be forgotten in the next movie.
It didn't challenge anything - it didn't change anything in the overall universe. As of Episode IX - as everyone predicted - both the Resistance and the First Order are back with the same level of forces for what will no doubt be a climactic final battle...
I vehemently disagree with this article -and the media in general when it comes to this film. Rogue One is a better movie, the first and only time I will ever say that about a prequel film.
The power of bad storytelling.
The film has so many glaring logic & character motivation flaws and the entire runtime is plagued with poor editing choices.
The film has so many glaring logic & character motivation flaws and the entire runtime is plagued with poor editing choices.
This just doesn't make any sense to me.
The film literally ends with the resistance being so small in number that they can literally all fit inside the falcon. They started the film with three huge ships and a bombing fleet.
Because every time we list what we hated we get people arguing back while that's how we feel about it, there's nothing to argue about.
But I'll bite.
- I thought what they had with Rey and Kylo was fascinating, and amazing, and they ruined all of it. First of all they say that Snoke is the reason they connected, which undermines their bond. Then Kylo went from sparring his mom to wanting everybody to die instantly. Rey, in the end, doesn't doubt anything and there is no ambiguity. By the end Kylo also entirely reverted back to a murderous 12 years old. I don't care if you think it makes sense, I found this extremely disappointed and it took away the only thing I liked in the movie.
- Snoke being handled this way is a problem because they displayed the extent of his powers, making his pathetic demise a bit hard to swallow with no pay off. But I didn't care much about Snoke. What I care about is that now the only two antagonists are Hux (who has been turned into a comedic relief) and Kylo (the conflicted character who somehow keeps losing and being ridiculed). See you can rationalize the fact he lost to the guards and needed Rey to save him, or that Rey overpowered him in the lightsaber grab force battle, the problem is that this is the antagonist now. You're not scared of him. He can't possibly win. That's a problem.
- Only like a couple of days happen after the force awakens, which not only create a lot of narrative issues (the state of the resistance and the first order being rather jarring) but also make Rey's sudden rise to power nonsensical.
No you don't have to be the son of a jedi to be strong with the Force. Obi Wan defeated Anakin, a jedi with more "power", thanks to his experience.
But it's hard work and years of training that gave him the edge.
If you take the hard work and training, then the only way you can display raw power rivaling Vader and his bloodline, would be if you were special.
But Rey isn't special. So what the fuck is going on ? Even if "the force" conveniently made Rey strong (ignoring Leia ? Clearly she used the force), she should not outperform Kylo who trained his ENTIRE LIFE. (speaking of which, his final "training" from Snoke makes literally no sense, but okay, I don't really care)
She awakened to the force like THREE DAYS AGO.
- Broom kid, fuck that. You can't randomly and casually use the force like that with 0 training or exposure to it. "b-but Anakin flew a speeder" Anakin is the CHOSEN ONE, boo ooh fuck prequels yada yada, stop it. He's a Skywalker, they're stronger than usual, and even them couldn't make things fly like this without training, and their feats were done under huge moment of pressure when they needed it. They didn't casually use powers like this. Fuck this. I hate it.
- Luke. I'm not debating about this. If you think it makes sense, that it was fitting, cool. But I personally hated all of it with all my heart. And you could have come up with reasons, or ways, that still made sense, and didn't go that far. If you like it or don't mind what they did with the character, as I said, that's cool. But it's so hard to swallow for me. Not after Han, and not when knowing Leia was "gone". I just can't.
Coming out of the theater I wasn't sure what to think. I thought it looked very pretty. And I did enjoy the Rey and Kylo parts a ton. And Mark Hamill gave a great performance.
When my mother asked me "oh did you go see the new Star Wars ? How was it ? How was Luke ?!" I actually was speechless. Like I wanted to reply and no sound came out of my mouth for a full 10 seconds. That's when I realized I was not okay with what I saw.
When I see this, I feel actual dread thinking of what happened and how it all turned out.
And I know what you're thinking, "get over it, it's just a movie". It's not just a movie. Ok. This is something, that has been part of my life for so long, watch it every xmas, with the family, or not as years went by and sometimes when I used to be alone, this would cheer me up. This would actually lift me up.
This is very hard right now to try to ignore what's next.
This is something the prequels had the luxury of having : choice. Because outside of Return of the Jedi which featured Anakin, the prequels led to the originals. So you were still getting the story you wanted, concluded in the way you wanted. Here it's impossible to dissociate the characters from their fate in the "sequels". At least for now. And again not saying that's a bad thing in itself, I'm saying, for me, it has drastic effects.
So to answer the thread, games are horrible, I can't bring myself to rewatch any movie right now (new or old), same thing with comics...
It's very hard. It's also crazy, because back then, no matter what people thought of the prequels, we got clone wars, kotor, legacy and so many cool books and comics. Everybody got something for them. So any disappointment was off set by wonderful things. Here... It's the opposite, it's like they're all making each other worse.
I'm sure the books and comics are still okay, but it's hard to motivate myself.
I did get somewhat excited with the Clone Wars conclusion announcement. That was needed.
I don't think the Last Jedi was worth it. Because if they changed the key points that people really hate about it, you would still love the movie. Because it would be the same movie, with a more ambiguous ending, Luke alive, and that's about it, and maybe some tease of a dark thing coming from the outer realm or whatever, to get a new threat going. And even if people disliked it, they'd brush it off and would still look forward to the future.
Like they did with some prequel movies. Here you can't do that, because they managed to throw away every plot line that mattered or they concluded them in incredibly lackluster fashion for the sake of subversion, the final conflict is Kylo vs Rey AGAIN. Han's dead, Luke's dead, Leia is reused footage, Finn and Poe seem irrelevant after TLJ and I just... I just don't care. It doesn't really appeal to me anymore.
And again, I don't think that was worth it. I'm not saying you can't love the movie, I'm not going to be debating, I'm just saying why I felt this way. That's not gonna change magically. And I'm fully aware that you're going to disagree with stuff like "finn and poe are irrelevant", which is fine. I just mean, to me, they really drove this whole story into a dead end. Same for details I might have gotten wrong like "uh dude it's not 2 days after TFA it's actually 4 days in a half", whatever. It's how I perceived it, and I'm not going through this again.
So now either JJ is going to try to backtrack somehow (I can't think of any proper solution), or just double down. But it's a reality that this movie made a lot of people miserable.
And it has NOTHING to do with alt right shit heads. Wonder Woman, Black Panther, and hell, TFA / Rogue One, were hated by those people for the same EXACT reasons, and they got nowhere. So here they try to claim they had an effect on TLJ but no they didn't. It's just opportunism.
I despise this movie more than I hated the prequels -- And it's not really for any one reason. It's not because Luke Skywalker wasn't what we expected.
It's just a cascade of things - big and small - that don't feel quite right from the perspective of a lifelong star wars fan that rob it of any authenticity -- And that'd be one thing, if it were just inauthentic -- but it's also just a plain bad movie on its own terms, full of nonsensical plot points and character motivations
I hate this movie so much I can't even understand how anyone likes it. I think it's indefensible
It's just a cascade of things - big and small - that don't feel quite right from the perspective of a lifelong star wars fan that rob it of any authenticity -- And that'd be one thing, if it were just inauthentic -- but it's also just a plain bad movie on its own terms, full of nonsensical plot points and character motivations
I hate this movie so much I can't even understand how anyone likes it. I think it's indefensible
They didn't shine much of a light on that part of the backstory. It could have been set up as an excellent theme with applicability - reconstruction is even more important than winning the war. But they didn't do that.
I think the film is rubbish for me on several levels.
The dumpster humor, awful side plots, missing or mediocre character development (outside of Rey), bad continuity, and terrible treatment of beloved characters were all bad enough, but they had to put that on top of deeply stupid themes:
Let the past go, burn it if you have to... (obvious attempt to justify the reset of the saga and its heroes, in spite of being about finishing a 9 movie long saga and 10.000+ years of history)
And the worst
Anyone can use the Force, there is no "Force royalty"
...
When we have known that for decades, so ... thanks for pointing out the obvious Ryan! The trilogies are -about- the Skywalker family btw, or they were supposed to, according to its creator.
Utterly disgusting to me. Back then, and still now.
The dumpster humor, awful side plots, missing or mediocre character development (outside of Rey), bad continuity, and terrible treatment of beloved characters were all bad enough, but they had to put that on top of deeply stupid themes:
Let the past go, burn it if you have to... (obvious attempt to justify the reset of the saga and its heroes, in spite of being about finishing a 9 movie long saga and 10.000+ years of history)
And the worst
Anyone can use the Force, there is no "Force royalty"
...
When we have known that for decades, so ... thanks for pointing out the obvious Ryan! The trilogies are -about- the Skywalker family btw, or they were supposed to, according to its creator.
Utterly disgusting to me. Back then, and still now.
i think it's neither really good or really bad. it's an ok movie, just like TFA (which might be a worse but was in the lucky position to be the first new star wars movie). i'd give it a 6/10. my favourite new star wars movie is rogue one which i would give a 7. overall i've had my fill of star wars and i don't want to see star wars ever again in my life.
Literally not a single complaint in this entire thread is about any of those.
Who gives a shit what the creator thinks these movies are supposed to be about? And anyway, literally the major thread is anyone can use the force because the force is everywhere, and LUKE SKYWALKER is the one that reminded the galaxy of that by "fighting" his nephew in the most non-violent, jedi-way possible. Sorry if that wasn't enough about the Skywalker family for you.
If the Empire with their planet-destroying space station, and total control of every major system in the known galaxy couldn't defeat the rebels and their 12 dinky ships at the end of ANH they're doomed. 🤔
A garbage
I don't want to explain further more because there are plenty of videos on YouTube which explain in details what is wrong in TLJ (especially about the characters, the story, the lack of novelty in the universe, in the design of ships or environments, the poor writing, the horrible humor, etc...)
Ep7 was already a huge disappointment because it was copy pasted on Ep4 in its structure without adding novelty (Empire-bis, Rebel-bis), so because of Ep7, Ep8 couldn't do anything and Rian chose to destroy everything Abrams did and that's good but Rian did it in a wrong wrong way
I don't want to explain further more because there are plenty of videos on YouTube which explain in details what is wrong in TLJ (especially about the characters, the story, the lack of novelty in the universe, in the design of ships or environments, the poor writing, the horrible humor, etc...)
Ep7 was already a huge disappointment because it was copy pasted on Ep4 in its structure without adding novelty (Empire-bis, Rebel-bis), so because of Ep7, Ep8 couldn't do anything and Rian chose to destroy everything Abrams did and that's good but Rian did it in a wrong wrong way
You see, this is actually a huge positive for me. While Star Wars is a multi-billion dollar franchise, it's always been extremely narrow in terms of characters and scope. If the universe is to actually expand and give us new stories, characters, locales, etc., then the special Jedi bloodlines need to go. It's too limiting of a factor for a universe that has so much potential, but constantly squanders it by doing -nothing- new.
Because this is 30 years after the fact and at the very height of the new conflict. Just like a New Hope, we're dropped straight into the part where the most important stuff is happening.
I feel like at the end of the day the film is not worth the copious amount of digital bits spilled over it. It's not particularly clever to me in its deconstructions, the actual pacing is uneven, I didn't really identify with the characters, the themes I found suspect. It's got some very beautiful shots, and then a lot of stuff that felt like it should be in the tie-in music video.
I enjoyed it. Been a fan of star wars since my childhood in the 80's.
I just didn't like how they did Luke's character. As someone that read star wars books and really was into the mythology just skipping over him training a new generation of jedi and having him pout for 95% of the movie then not fight and die was a letdown.
I just didn't like how they did Luke's character. As someone that read star wars books and really was into the mythology just skipping over him training a new generation of jedi and having him pout for 95% of the movie then not fight and die was a letdown.
Sorry if my opinion of the movie doesn't sit well with you. It's really a you problem though.
As I said, we already knew anyone can use the Force, it's a non theme.
I think the movie is shit, and it literally killed any hype I had for the new trilogy and seriously dampened my love of Star Wars overall.
Great job I guess?
Most important for the galaxy != most interesting for the audience.
Oh yeah, because someone criticizes your rant it's a problem with them. Uh huh.
Also I didn't know because the audience knows something to be the case that means that all discovery of it for characters within a world/narrative is meaningless.
Also also based on some people's criticisms of The Last Jedi like Leia flying in space without """training""" seems like the audience needed a bit of reminder of the lessons we learned about the world from the OT too.
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Yeah, in the moment I enjoyed it.
But reflecting on it I liked it less and less. The characters are just uninteresting. Most of my friends felt the same way. This whole sequel trilogy is just a shame really.
And then the Empire strikes back and leaves our heroes in defeat, ending with Han needing to be rescued. That hanging plot point leads to some of the most iconic moments in Star Wars.
The only plot thread left by the end of Last Jedi is defeating The First order & Kylo, that's it, and it's not a very exciting prospect because our heroes will cakewalk to victory.
True, but it's so open-ended that it gives JJ the option to take the story pretty much anywhere he wants.
Because I'd instead love to watch new actors try to play as young versions of existing characters as they talk about rebuilding the galaxy in hologram rooms. Lmao it's literally one of the basic rules of storytelling, the most important stuff happening absolutely is the most interesting material. A character like Rey appearing after the death of the jedi order, a weakened resistance fighting a huge threat the the gov didn't take seriously enough until it was too late. The heroes of old now aged and trying to figure out how to entrust the fight to a younger generation of idealistic heroes who were just as naive as they were. It's all great stuff.
When I first saw it, I didn't like it. It annoyed me a lot if I'm honest because, yeah, it played with my expectations and failed to make anything of it. I've seen it a few times since and while I can appreciate what the movie was trying to do, I still think it didn't succeed in any meaningful way and sabotaged its own message too many times for us to take away anything from it.
I'm not sure it works as a sequel and the way it so casually plays with the themes and plot lines being set up will make the entire trilogy poorer for it - insofar as it's quite possible the sequel trilogy will ultimately be worse than the prequel trilogy unless Abrams is able to pull some kind of miracle.
In the end it's a very subversive, experimental Star Wars movie that just... isn't very good. It's definitely the Attack of the Clones moment of the sequel trilogy so all we can do is hope Episode IX is more Revenge of the Sith than Return of the Jedi.
Folks would make new accounts just to vote multiple times.
I'm not sure it works as a sequel and the way it so casually plays with the themes and plot lines being set up will make the entire trilogy poorer for it - insofar as it's quite possible the sequel trilogy will ultimately be worse than the prequel trilogy unless Abrams is able to pull some kind of miracle.
In the end it's a very subversive, experimental Star Wars movie that just... isn't very good. It's definitely the Attack of the Clones moment of the sequel trilogy so all we can do is hope Episode IX is more Revenge of the Sith than Return of the Jedi.
Folks would make new accounts just to vote multiple times.
Personally, I'm very happy that TLJ doesn't suffer from "middle syndrome" like a lot of middle movies in a trilogy do. That the third movie is more wide open story wise than most conclusions in a trilogy is a-ok by me.
Someone didn't get the message of the film.
The heroes have worse odds than Luke and Leia did at the end of Empire Strikes Back, there was some hope considering that film ends with them looking at a fleet.
You forgot that, unlike ESB, the rebels are practically non-existant now, if it wasn't for Luke's sacrifice it would have been game over. The rebelion is way more fucked up at the end of TLJ than it was at the end of ESB.
I liked the movie, but now when the dust settled I start to see more and more things, that just didn't fit or work. Like the whole Finn/Rose subplot, Leia flying in space, sometimes the humor just felt out of place, etc. That said everything with Kylo/Rey and Luke was great, loved seing Leia again. I think Episode IX can be truly great, it just needs to better structured. Like the difference from Age of Ultron to Infinity War.
I think the main issue with this film was that the "battles" it tried to fight in its messaging really didn't need to be fought. Why was Star Wars and its many elements a thing that needed to be deconstructed in the form of a massive big-budget 2.5 hour film? The film doesn't actually give many answers to this, and the answers it does give really are based on the application of real-life stuff to a fantasy sci-fi world (see: All humans are flawed so Luke must be depressed). It's Rian Johnson's personal thesis on what he thinks of the Star Wars franchise and, frankly, it's a very muddled piece with a lack of a strong conclusion.
If you come at a discussion like this with the view that "I am right, and it's just you who needs to learn that I am right," then of course everyone who disagrees with you is going to be wrong. There's this idea that people who didn't like TLJ just "didn't get it"
If you come at a discussion like this with the view that "I am right, and it's just you who needs to learn that I am right," then of course everyone who disagrees with you is going to be wrong. There's this idea that people who didn't like TLJ just "didn't get it"
sure but its not real or important. Hell they're all fucking smiling and hugging at the end after getting decimated.
The closest thing to a loss is a fucking meme character
i can kind of get behind the OP in theory but my deal is to what end is it really subversive. it did succeed in conveying that general theme but does that really make for a compelling arc? i mean in the end we still have usual suspect good guys vs bad guys, kylo isn't particularly interesting in this regard as we still have a man in black somewhat conflicted, pretty much a direct analogue to vader/ani so i don't see anything groundbreaking there
the only new takeaway here is chimney sweep orphan boys can be jedi too, or something. i could roll with it if it were a good movie but it wasn't
the only new takeaway here is chimney sweep orphan boys can be jedi too, or something. i could roll with it if it were a good movie but it wasn't
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I wasn't a Star Wars fan either til TLJ, it was simply much better as a film than other entries. Retroactively made me a fan of the series.
I'm not a Star Wars guy, saw them as an adult and dont consider myself a diehard at all. It was an incoherent mess of a movie.
Yeah, this is the other main issue with the film. Rey deciding to not join Kylo was when the film went back on pretty much everything it had been building up till that point. Sure, that's "what makes sense for their characters," but it would have been so much more interesting if the film deconstructed Star Wars in its fundamental storyline instead of just doing so in all the tertiary areas of the film.
I do not like TLJ. I strongly disliked it the first time I saw it and I've rewatched it twice since then in an effort to like it more but with each viewing I dislike it even stronger than before.
It's better than the prequels, I mean the score and cinematography alone put it above the prequels, but the script is just bad in my opinion and most of the story is terrible to me. It has a few good scenes but that alone does not make a good film. I find Solo to be a much better movie.
To your second question, I hate to say it but TLJ kind of killed my enthusiasm for the franchise. I grew up with Star Wars and I've been a huge fan all of my life but I don't really care to see #9 now. TLJ just deflated my enthusiasm completely. I still love the original trilogy, Solo, and Rogue One, but I think I'm mostly done with anything new and Star Wars, sadly.
Maybe #9 will be incredible and TLJ will just be an outlier I can ignore, who knows.
Despite seeing some good things things in it, the Kylo-Rey relationship in particular, I find it to be a complete disappointment.
Furthermore, it has left me stone cold for the next film.
After the last film I was on the edge of my seat to see to follow the new adventures of Rey, Finn, Poe, Leia, Luke, and Kyle. Now I have lost all interest in Finn, Poe, and sadly even Rey (my former heroine). Luke is dead, Leia unavailable. That leaves Kylo as the sole character in whose journey I still have any interest at all. That's not enough.
Shame, though, because visually I thought it was great.
Furthermore, it has left me stone cold for the next film.
After the last film I was on the edge of my seat to see to follow the new adventures of Rey, Finn, Poe, Leia, Luke, and Kyle. Now I have lost all interest in Finn, Poe, and sadly even Rey (my former heroine). Luke is dead, Leia unavailable. That leaves Kylo as the sole character in whose journey I still have any interest at all. That's not enough.
Shame, though, because visually I thought it was great.
I'm old enough to have seen Star Wars in theaters in 1977. I was 3 years old and my dad took me to see it twice. I barely remember that experience but the memories are still there.
This started what became my love of just about everything this franchise has offered over 4 decades. More movies - which I have loved and disliked to varying degrees - comics, novels, video games. All told I've probably spent tens of thousands of dollars on this franchise over the last 4 decades.
I dislike TLJ so very much that it has somehow found a way to kill my love of a franchise. I just don't seem to have that fire or that excitement for anythjng Star Wars anymore. I'll go see Episode IX, and probably opening night. But honestly there's nothing there that I look forward to seeing.
For me it just really came down to the characterization of Luke. I didn't like it. At all. Space sword wielding Jesus is not really what I wanted either. I'm not really sure if I can put into words what I wanted to see out of Luke Skywalker but I can definitely put into words that this version of Luke is not one that I wanted to see.
I told my wife weeks before the movie that if they kill Luke then I'm done. Don't care what happens in the movie, but just don't kill off Luke fucking Skywalker. I remember telling her that if Luke dies I'm walking out of the movie right there. I didn't go to that extreme when it actually happened but it was still very disappointing.
This started what became my love of just about everything this franchise has offered over 4 decades. More movies - which I have loved and disliked to varying degrees - comics, novels, video games. All told I've probably spent tens of thousands of dollars on this franchise over the last 4 decades.
I dislike TLJ so very much that it has somehow found a way to kill my love of a franchise. I just don't seem to have that fire or that excitement for anythjng Star Wars anymore. I'll go see Episode IX, and probably opening night. But honestly there's nothing there that I look forward to seeing.
For me it just really came down to the characterization of Luke. I didn't like it. At all. Space sword wielding Jesus is not really what I wanted either. I'm not really sure if I can put into words what I wanted to see out of Luke Skywalker but I can definitely put into words that this version of Luke is not one that I wanted to see.
I told my wife weeks before the movie that if they kill Luke then I'm done. Don't care what happens in the movie, but just don't kill off Luke fucking Skywalker. I remember telling her that if Luke dies I'm walking out of the movie right there. I didn't go to that extreme when it actually happened but it was still very disappointing.