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Ooblets will be exclusive to Epic Games Store on PC

Gentlemen

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,835
No. Some really good people. They chose to leave.

What you are doing here: its been allowed to go on too long and people left.
What is driving the discussion over the last 48 hours is a horrid torrent of abuse labeled at the 2-person team behind Ooblets. If people are leaving on account of a toxic environment it doesn't line up with the conspiracy theories Eloka was peddling either way.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,551
Sweden
I'm sorry, how did you not interpret it that way?

In the very first tweet:

"why i can't take EGS criticism seriously anymore, a thread "

The person then goes on to argue that EGS criticism is basically fueled by a right-wing hate agenda and that if you have a negative reaction to, well, any facet of it, you're just buying into the propaganda.

It's a disgusting allegation and is basically implying that no one can think for themselves.
(Whether accurate or not) she is saying that some of the people who are fueling the backlash are alt-righters, correct. But she's not saying that anyone who gets dragged along is an alt-righter

There is some genuine advice in there for those of you who want to speak up against EGS if you would listen: if you don't want to come off as gamergate-adjacent, don't use the gamergate playbook of harassment, threats and personal attacks. Don't make posts claiming everyone from journalists to forum administrations are out to get you if you don't want to look like unhinged conspiracy theorists. Don't express yourself with rage if you want to be taken seriously. Explain your concerns in a rational and calm manner. Read the room and don't explain the concerns after a BUT in a thread about a statement that was made in response to threats and harassment

(all "you"s here are the general "you", I'm not singling out you in particular)
 

Spyware

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,033
Sweden
because seriously who would expect that insane over the top reaction to their crime of "condescension"
My first reaction to the blog post was "oh no no no no" because I knew exactly what it would lead to. Is it seriously still news to people that these hate groups live for this? They love to latch onto "legitimate negative" stuff and avalanche it to hell so things like EGS is a goldmine for them. That EGS has been a snack for them has been shown over and over during this past year. It started for real with GG and together with everything else alt-right it has evolved into what we have seen during these past days.

Edit: Gotta correct myself. Devolve is a much better word for this.
 

Dog of Bork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,855
Texas
And why do they feel unwanted
Probably because people get away with constant trolling in PC related threads, saying shit like ItS JuSt A LAunChEr Y u MaD, and asking idiotic, leading questions they already know the answer to

Calling the "other side" gamerstm and lumping everyone in the camp of the nut jobs leading harassment campaigns. Implying we're babies, manchildren, or racist. It's been a long while where this shit has gone undermoderated and PC folks are getting fed up
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,436
What is driving the discussion over the last 48 hours is a horrid torrent of abuse labeled at the 2-person team behind Ooblets. If people are leaving on account of a toxic environment it doesn't line up with the conspiracy theories Eloka was peddling either way.
PC gaming people have been leaving since the EGS exclusives started, due to disingenuous posts, being called names, and behaviour which would've been ban-worthy if it happened in a console-related thread. To quote from BronsonLee's recent thread:
Flipping it around, I have seen people call people who don't want to use the EGS:
Children
Babies
Fanboys
Shills
People who should 'care more about something else' (I've done this personally, something I'm going to actively avoid doing now)
A generally low-level of toxic behaviour that makes people feel unwelcome, even if it doesn't descend into overt abuse or harassment.
 

BronsonLee

it me
Member
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
You know what made me feel unwanted a while back?

When I made my thread about the toxicity in this stuff and talked about people sending me death threats, something I hadn't done out of fear

Then someone said I simply made the thread to gaslight people

and you agreed with them.
 
Mod post - get back on topic and cut out the derail

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
16,390
Official Staff Communication
Enough with the metacommentary. This thread is supposed to be about the Ooblets announcement, not about specific Era communities.
 

Zefah

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,491
(Whether accurate or not) she is saying that some of the people who are fueling the backlash are alt-righters, correct. But she's not saying that anyone who gets dragged along is an alt-righter

There is some genuine advice in there for those of you who want to speak up against EGS if you would listen: if you don't want to come off as gamergate-adjacent, don't use the gamergate playbook of harassment, threats and personal attacks. Don't make posts claiming everyone from journalists to forum administrations are out to get you if you don't want to look like unhinged conspiracy theorists. Don't express yourself with rage if you want to be taken seriously. Explain your concerns in a rational and calm manner. Read the room and don't explain the concerns after a BUT in a thread about a statement that was made in response to threats and harassment

(all "you"s here are the general "you", I'm not singling out you in particular)
Categorizing anyone who criticizes or calls out the developer as either an alt-righter or someone who is unwittingly being dragged along by alt-righters is the problem. It's bullshit.

I mean, just read this tweet:
"know that if you're not a slighted ooblets fan, and you're looking at this from the outside, and going "wow they really treated their fans like shit, fuck these guys" then you're basically buying into a coordinated propaganda campaign targeted against EGS"

It's so ugly in its assumption that no one can have an opinion of their own and that the only reason the devs are receiving backlash is because of some coordinated propaganda campaign. Or, no, maybe it might be because we have tons of examples of perplamps being an aggressive ass who readily shows great contempt for anyone that disagrees with him.
 
Nov 14, 2017
950
My first reaction to the blog post was "oh no no no no" because I knew exactly what it would lead to. Is it seriously still news to people that these hate groups live for this? They love to latch onto "legitimate negative" stuff and avalanche it to hell so things like EGS is a goldmine for them. That EGS has been a snack for them has been shown over and over during this past year. It started for real with GG and together with everything else alt-right it has evolved into what we have seen during these past days.

Edit: Gotta correct myself. Devolve is a much better word for this.
This. I fucking knew what was going to happen the moment I saw the reaction start to unfold.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,551
Sweden
It's so ugly in its assumption that no one can have an opinion of their own and that the only reason the devs are receiving backlash is because of some coordinated propaganda campaign. Or, no, maybe it might be because we have tons of examples of perplamps being an aggressive ass who quickly shows great contempt for anyone that disagrees with him
Why are you making it personal like this? This is the kind of thing she was talking about (and which the alt-right excels at): making people rage against people rather than against systems
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,430
This makes me so angry.

Fuck people who take someone under fire for something and try to "enhance" it with some made up bullshit. Fuck that. We can have a conversation about what someone has done wrong or not without that kind of bullshit. It makes the entire conversation impossible and doesn't help either side at all.
 

Zefah

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,491
Why are you making it personal like this? This is the kind of thing she was talking about (and which the alt-right excels at): making people rage against people rather than against systems
Excuse me, systems? Which systems caused them to write that blog post and then follow up with a bunch of hate and contempt for their audience (while conveniently saying that anyone who reacts negatively was never part of their audience in the first place), not to mention liking a "reeee" tweet along the way? I'm not making anything personal and I haven't even discussed this issue outside of Internet forums. I'm not the type that goes directly to people's Twitters or whatever and sends them nasty comments, but I do like discussing stuff on forums.
 

Hucast

Member
Mar 25, 2019
3,060
Probably because people get away with constant trolling in PC related threads, saying shit like ItS JuSt A LAunChEr Y u MaD, and asking idiotic, leading questions they already know the answer to

Calling the "other side" gamerstm and lumping everyone in the camp of the nut jobs leading harassment campaigns. Implying we're babies, manchildren, or racist. It's been a long while where this shit has gone undermoderated and PC folks are getting fed up
It sometimes sucks that you can't express yourself even in an unharmful way. I have literally ignored threads to stop myself reacting in them
 
Oct 27, 2017
396
So why are people leaving then.
This is anecdotal, but as someone who games on PC I've more or less stopped posting here because it's exhausting to come onto the forums and see the spiraling toxicity that flows out of the threads related to games that have gone to the EGS. Each thread (including this one) basically proceeds along the same track of people reacting negatively to the announcement, others trotting out the tired response of, "It's just another launcher", people explaining why they dislike the EGS, and then the last two steps repeat ad infinitum until everyone gets pissy with each other and the thread gets shut down.

I still come here and browse on occasion because there are posters that I respect or enjoy their expertise or insight, but it's become such an unenjoyable slog in a lot of gaming topics that I just don't bother.

On topic I hope the devs stop getting harassed. Doesn't really matter if their initial blog post was incendiary or not, it doesn't warrant them receiving death threats. Have a good one folks.
 
Last edited:
Nov 14, 2017
950
This makes me so angry.

Fuck people who take someone under fire for something and try to "enhance" it with some made up bullshit. Fuck that. We can have a conversation about what someone has done wrong or not without that kind of bullshit. It makes the entire conversation impossible and doesn't help either side at all.
I can't help but feel people do this on purpose to stir shit up. I can't comprehend how stupid you'd otherwise need to be to have legitimate reasons to hate something but then decide "yeah, let's make shit up about them to make them seem even WORSE"
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,551
Sweden
Excuse me, the systems? Which systems caused them to write that blog post and then follow up with a bunch of hate and contempt, not to mention liking a "reeee" tweet. I'm not making anything personal and I haven't even discussed this issue outside of Internet forums. I'm not the type that goes directly to people's Twitters or whatever and sends them nasty comments, but I do like discussing stuff on forums.
I meant the issue at hand. If you're unhappy with EGS make points against EGS. If you're unhappy with EGS exclusivity, make points against EGS exclusivity. Making it personal by attacking the people involved is both counterproductive and toxic. When someone is the victim of harassment, talking about what they did to, in your view, invite the harassment comes uncomfortably close to victim blaming
 

Zefah

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,491
I meant the issue at hand. If you're unhappy with EGS make points against EGS. If you're unhappy with EGS exclusivity, make points against EGS exclusivity. Making it personal by attacking the people involved is both counterproductive and toxic. When someone is the victim of harassment, talking about what they did to, in your view, invite the harassment comes uncomfortably close to victim blaming
This sounds awfully close to me like saying people can't have a negative reaction to something if it involves people, since that might be construed as harassment. I couldn't possibly disagree more. I'm never going to criticize an indie dev struggling to get by just for taking a deal that provides them with much needed stability. I will, however, react very negatively if a dev comes hard with all of the arrogant and ignorant rhetoric and accusations displayed in the blog post and follow up commentary that are very much the topic of this thread.
 

Dog of Bork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,855
Texas
I meant the issue at hand. If you're unhappy with EGS make points against EGS. If you're unhappy with EGS exclusivity, make points against EGS exclusivity. Making it personal by attacking the people involved is both counterproductive and toxic. When someone is the victim of harassment, talking about what they did to, in your view, invite the harassment comes uncomfortably close to victim blaming
What if someone is unhappy with how they went about delivering that information, though?

I don't know if you're doing it intentionally, but you seem to be implying that people can't dislike the way these devs have interacted with their community and the PC community at large without victim blaming.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,430
I can't help but feel people do this on purpose to stir shit up. I can't comprehend how stupid you'd otherwise need to be to have legitimate reasons to hate something but then decide "yeah, let's make shit up about them to make them seem even WORSE"
The worst part is it's impossible to tell who it came from. Usually it's from people who are on the attacking side who think that making stuff up won't get caught and think it makes their agenda more concretely successful since they get frustrated that the real nuance of the situation isn't condemning enough. It can also be from other people who want to paint accusers as liars, and since they can't deny what the person has actually said, if they make up something extreme, then it will bias people against other things that person said being very bad.

As I said typically it's the former, but I've seen instances of the latter. And then of course there's just trolls stirring the pot as well as you say.

Either way, it's a scummy thing to do and makes the situation worse for everyone.
 
Sep 14, 2018
692
This sounds awfully close to me like saying people can't have a negative reaction to something if it involves people, since that might be construed as harassment. I couldn't possibly disagree more. I'm never going to criticize an indie dev struggling to get by just for taking a deal that provides them with much needed stability. I will, however, react very negatively if a dev comes hard with all of the arrogant and ignorant rhetoric and accusations displayed in the blog post and follow up commentary that are very much the topic of this thread.
Honey it's understandable being irritated at that blog post but after a few days it's ok to let it go, the devs did not mean to antagonize you, they were talking to their audience as they always do, it's time to forgive them. Don't let a random internet person keep you angry for days on end, don't give anyone that power over you. You were angry for a while, now you're ready to move on.

What if someone is unhappy with how they went about delivering that information, though?

I don't know if you're doing it intentionally, but you seem to be implying that people can't dislike the way these devs have interacted with their community and the PC community at large without victim blaming.
Might I refer you to the above message.
 

Swenhir

Member
Oct 28, 2017
502
Probably because people get away with constant trolling in PC related threads, saying shit like ItS JuSt A LAunChEr Y u MaD, and asking idiotic, leading questions they already know the answer to

Calling the "other side" gamerstm and lumping everyone in the camp of the nut jobs leading harassment campaigns. Implying we're babies, manchildren, or racist. It's been a long while where this shit has gone undermoderated and PC folks are getting fed up
I don't know that it's gone unmoderated but the fact of the matter is that the amount of drive-by, hollow replies has been irritating. I have very seldomly seen people make actually reasoned arguments explaining to me the tangible benefits of Epic's launcher - as opposed to a platform like their competitors. Or, more importantly, why the toxicity of exclusivity tactics is justified for anyone other than a few lucky winners who had already proven their worth and were in the upper percentiles of exposure in the PC market anyway.

Point is, what Ooblet has done with their announcement is, to say the least, fail to provide a single actual argument in the way of easing our half-a-year-old concerns :
- Why should we give a damn about their moneyhat when the practice is actively detrimental to the PC ecosystem.
- Why should we be happy about their deal when we are getting a worse user experience as a result of their choice.
 

Dog of Bork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,855
Texas
That's the thing. They interacted with their community not with the "PC community at large". Most of the anger is coming from outside the game's community, from people they weren't even communicating with in the first place
Their subsequent messages (and initial post) were very much directed at the PC community. Unless you think they're telling their own community that they didn't want the game anyway.

Not that it rebuts my point anyway.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,436
Honey it's understandable being irritated at that blog post but after a few days it's ok to let it go, the devs did not mean to antagonize you, they were talking to their audience as they always do, it's time to forgive them. Don't let a random internet person keep you angry for days on end, don't give anyone that power over you. You were angry for a while, now you're ready to move on.
That's the thing. They interacted with their community not with the "PC community at large". Most of the anger is coming from outside the game's community, from people they weren't even communicating with in the first place
Does the liking of the "Reeeee" tweet not indicate they were well-aware that the wider community was listening to what was being said, even if they weren't the direct audience?
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,606
Indonesia
I meant the issue at hand. If you're unhappy with EGS make points against EGS. If you're unhappy with EGS exclusivity, make points against EGS exclusivity. Making it personal by attacking the people involved is both counterproductive and toxic. When someone is the victim of harassment, talking about what they did to, in your view, invite the harassment comes uncomfortably close to victim blaming
The problem is, the conversation always starts with personal attack:

"It's just a launcher why are you so mad?"

It's like they're unhappy that people refuse to use EGS.

I'm not going to question your decision to use EGS. But in the other hand, please don't ask my decision to not use it.
 

Z-oo31

Member
Jan 12, 2018
534
If I were the creator of Ooblets, I would've put out a blog post that said this:

We have decided to sign a deal with Epic Games Store that will make Ooblets exclusive to that platform. As a first-time indie dev taking on considerable risk, it's within our best interest to go that route. We know many of you would prefer to use Steam, but we hope the quality of our game will cancel out any inconvenience you may experience.

Straight and very plain. No trying hard to be funny. No sarcasm.
 
Sep 14, 2018
692
Does the liking of the "Reeeee" tweet not indicate they were well-aware that the wider community was listening to what was being said, even if they weren't the direct audience?
Rebecca liked a tweet saying the EGS store was a free download, I think they were just looking for support to retweet. I think this is a bitch eating crackers situation, I really doubt she would knowingly support the message behind that offensive meme, isn't it more likely they were overwhelmed and looked for anything to defuse the situation?
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,606
Indonesia
It doesn't matter if it appears like they're egging people on. Victim blaming for people suffering harassment for ultimately trivial reasons is never okay. It's like saying Zoe Quinn deserved all of the death threats over Gamergate because she was often abrasive on Twitter.
Oh, I wasn't talking about the harassment of the devs. I was just mainly covering the personal attack regarding EGS discussions in this forum.
 

Dreams-Visions

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,315
Miami, FL
Wild that this conversation (if you can call it that) ballooned to 3,000 posts.

I do wish them the best and I look forward to playing their game on console or whenever it releases outside of EGS. I’m very inclined to support games outside of EGS and I assume maybe this time next year their game will be available in PC storefronts that I feel more comfortable doing business with.

These harassers need to gain some life perspective. But sociopaths get more visibility and have more impact in gaming than any other social/entertainment medium. They’re like rabid Star Wars fans but with double the impact.
 
Sep 14, 2018
692
People who are under attack by thousands of irrationally angry people often act impulsively and can easily destabilize in the face of extreme levels of abuse.

Yes and then anything they say or do is taken to be an attack, like that thing about them using their patrons and throwing them away now that they don't need the money, when the message was pretty neutral (and thankful to the actual patrons on that mail). That's some eating crackers if I've ever seen it.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,436
Rebecca liked a tweet saying the EGS store was a free download, I think they were just looking for support to retweet. I think this is a bitch eating crackers situation, I really doubt she would knowingly support the message behind that offensive meme, isn't it more likely they were overwhelmed and looked for anything to defuse the situation?
That's entirely possible. But I think in that case, there's a serious error in judgement there which only exacerbated the situation. We've already had the discussion about how the Reee meme is harmful, and how it's hard to not know it's harmful. For there to be no statement saying "We were ignorant in liking this tweet, and now we know its history we apologise" shows how out of their depth they are.

Which brings us back around to

I am absolutely against abuse of developers, but I'd also agree with that same indie dev who said that Epic need to stand-up and give devs/pubs assistance in handling the negative PR that accompanies taking EGS exclusive money.
The devs cocked-up (whether they meant to antagonise or not). Yet Epic could see it all happening in real-time, and didn't do a single damn thing to help, with Sweeney personally tweeting antagonistically, even. People complain about how Valve treat devs with the whole algorithm stuff, but Epic have behaved appallingly. No, extremist fringes of gaming shouldn't abuse devs, but Christ, where's the support behind the scenes (and in front of Gamers(tm)) from Epic?
 

Zefah

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,491
Honey it's understandable being irritated at that blog post but after a few days it's ok to let it go, the devs did not mean to antagonize you, they were talking to their audience as they always do, it's time to forgive them. Don't let a random internet person keep you angry for days on end, don't give anyone that power over you. You were angry for a while, now you're ready to move on.



Might I refer you to the above message.
What are these forums for if not to discuss things? I'm seriously at a loss right now. Do understand that I'm not actually angry.
 

Zefah

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,491
Rebecca liked a tweet saying the EGS store was a free download, I think they were just looking for support to retweet. I think this is a bitch eating crackers situation, I really doubt she would knowingly support the message behind that offensive meme, isn't it more likely they were overwhelmed and looked for anything to defuse the situation?
Did you actually see that image in the context of the tweet? It was a reaction to "reee" and even under the best interpretation that does leaps and bounds to favor the devs in this situation, it's still just them nodding to and liking the idea that anyone who thinks the EGS issue is more than just a free game launcher are shrill and screaming complainers.
 

Polioliolio

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,837
It's fine. But I'll just wait for it to be on steam. I don't want any more store fronts and I already have too many games as is. And you better believe I'll wait for a discount at that. It's just how I buy PC games. I wait till they're cheap and buy them on the thing I'm already comfortable with, Steam.

But if this is good for the developer, I'm glad. I've been following the game in a newsletter for ages and it looks like fun!
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
284
I don't think the developers of Ooblets said anything like that? Certainly not in their blog post
My bad, I misread the thrust of the conversation. I thought you were talking about in general. This whole subject has gotten so fucked up at this point that it's easy to get lost in the gordian knot of assholery.

It's all a mess because so many people are in this purely for hate, and then there's a percentage of people who don't care about the issues with the EGS, but instead just want it to go away. Even those of us who dislike the EGS should be pushing for a scenario in which the flaws in Epic's storefront are corrected, not simply trying to hate and destroy everything related to it.

As someone whose main concern with EGS is to make sure that people who could afford/had access to games prior to EGS exclusivity continue to have access to the same games as those of us who are relatively financially stable/live in the NA/EU region, the "EGS bad/Steam Only" shit is extremely frustrating.
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,783
It's a hotly contested issue with a lot of people posting ignorant dismissive bullshit that causes people who are annoyed by this to respond, often in a hot-headed way. It's very easy to understand why each EGS thread gets a threadmark and I don't think that reason is as you described it.

Also, I don't see how other devs having faced harassment is any good reason to post a bunch of inflammatory and ignorant garbage in some misguided attempt to "get out ahead of things."
He probably thought it was in a jokey enough tone that most people would get the sarcasm, I'd imagine if you were one of the pissed off people you probably took it as an attack, I don't think the vast majority of their actual audience did since they have received a ton of support from devs and their community since then. The hornets nest was waiting regardless.

Edit: Also, I'd disagree with the statement that "every single developer that has supported EGS has been harassed to varying degrees". I think everyone looked at Untitled Goose Game's exclusive deal and thought "Fair enough".
ehhhh...

Like I feel like you guys are forgetting that outside of reasonable people, there are also a lot of shitty individuals marching under the same banner, quoting people from this forum, posting charts from this forum and also being complete shits.