[OPEN SPOILER] Now that the entire Sword/Shield Pokédex leaked, let's mourn the Pokémon that got Thanos-snapped by Game Freak [SEE STAFF POST]

[Scarlet Spider]

Back on topic though, it's already been proven beyond reasonable doubt that they've just used the 3DS models and added a new texture, right? Didn't Gyarados and Arcanine match up 1/1 when being compared? It'd take a ridiculously larger amount of work to make a new model that's exactly the same as the old one.

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You never know with Gamefreak possibly running into issues lol. But your point was brought up before, where it was usually met with "armchair dev" comments, even when a dev popped in to give their thoughts on it. The animations outside of battles like Amie/Camp, walking/running are absolutely gorgeous, and incredibly expressive. It's just the battles where things feel so dull and boring for me, along with purposely scaled down model for large Pokemon for some reason. Like scaling up tiny Pokemon is forgivable since it may be too difficult for Gamefreak to figure out how to implement it compared to the Genius Sonority games.
As for models specifically, it's so hard to understand what Ohmori meant due to possibility of it being mistranslated.

I just need to see for myself via datamine if they're the same models or if they truly, actually had Creatures Inc recreate models to look identical to their 2013 models.

 

[Lynd]

Except it didnt.

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How is it different? Ruby and Sapphire launched with only 202 Pokemon, cutting a bunch.

 

[Zippo]

Utterly devastated that Dragonite, Alakazam, Ampharos and Metagross are gone.

I can't believe they didn't make it.

 

[Fj0823]

How is it different? Ruby and Sapphire launched with only 202 Pokemon, cutting a bunch.

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Every single missing Pokemon was coded into the game, so when Emerald and the Kanto Remakes came out, you could transfer all the missing 184 Pokemon from those games to your copy of Ruby or Saphire.

The missing Pokemon are NOT coded into Sword and Shield, so even if a new game comes out with a new selection of Pokemon, you won't be able to have them in Sword or Shield in any way.

Oh! and those new games won't be able to take all of your Sw/Sh Pokemon in them either. Fun times ahead

 

[Leo]

It's obvious the models are the same, has anyone really argued against that?

I think it's common sense by now that that was an error when translating the interview, somehow "remade from scratch" was supposed to mean "made new textures", although I have no idea if this was Ohmori trying to sound confusing on purpose or just a mistake from the person who translated.

The person would have to be blind not to see the models are the same, we don't need data mining for that.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

How is it different? Ruby and Sapphire launched with only 202 Pokemon, cutting a bunch.

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Because they weren't cut from the game, they just weren't available without trading from the remakes. You could still eventually obtain them, and you could still battle with and trade every single Pokémon species between games of that generation.

In this case, the cut Pokémon are permanently unobtainable. You can't trade to get them, and you can't even battle with players on future games within the same generation (such as the likely gen 4 remakes) who are using them. And every single Pokémon game going forward is intended to be this way.

 

[CatDoggo]

Am I like the one person who's actually glad that the majority of the flying Pokemon have flying animations instead of grounded ones? Sure the ones that only hover are kind of dumb, with Salamence and Xatu looking the worst, but the rest look best while in flight. It actually bothered me as a kid that legendaries like Articuno, Moltres, Lugia and Ho-oh stayed grounded for the majority of their animations in the Stadium games, unless you used fly of course. It felt like they should have been flying in battle and the way they are now is pretty much exactly what I was hoping for. Look at the way Lugia slowly flaps its wings like its using its psychic abilities to help stay aloft. With the way its Pokedex entries state that a flap of its wings causes hurricanes, the way it slowly does it in its animation could be taken as it holding its full strength back. Little stuff like that is so cool and adds to the Pokemon. And I mean, look at Aerodactyl. It wouldn't look nearly as cool if it stayed grounded in battle.

 

[Leo]

I think this whole conversation dragged on so much because GF were never honest about the reason why they made that decision: it's just that they couldn't keep adding Pokemon and accumulating workload for every future game forever. It would had to stop at some point, be it 1000, 2000 or 10000 Pokemon, they had to draw a line somewhere and they did it here. I can totally understand that.

They even said something along those lines, but very vaguely, and also brought up lots of different reasons at different moments, and most of them sounded like bs, so people were engaged on discussing the possible reasons and debunking each other's theories when the real reason was always very simple, but never communicated well.

GF should have put more thought on how they would communicate a huge change like that, it's kind of amazing looking back how they really didn't. They mentioned it in a treehouse stream like its some minor detail, and then proceeded to say lots of different seemingly improvised things when shit hit the fan, which it obviously would.

 

[Crayolan]

Am I like the one person who's actually glad that the majority of the flying Pokemon have flying animations instead of grounded ones? Sure the ones that only hover are kind of dumb, with Salamence and Xatu looking the worst, but the rest look best while in flight. It actually bothered me as a kid that legendaries like Articuno, Moltres, Lugia and Ho-oh stayed grounded for the majority of their animations in the Stadium games, unless you used fly of course. It felt like they should have been flying in battle and the way they are now is pretty much exactly what I was hoping for. Look at the way Lugia slowly flaps its wings like its using its psychic abilities to help stay aloft. With the way its Pokedex entries state that a flap of its wings causes hurricanes, the way it slowly does it in its animation could be taken as it holding its full strength back. Little stuff like that is so cool and adds to the Pokemon. And I mean, look at Aerodactyl. It wouldn't look nearly as cool if it stayed grounded in battle.

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There's no reason it has to be all or nothing. Even in Stadium some pokemon fly by default (see: crobat).

Some pokemon (mainly birds) can be flying during their idles and some can be grounded.

 

[Serif]

Am I like the one person who's actually glad that the majority of the flying Pokemon have flying animations instead of grounded ones? Sure the ones that only hover are kind of dumb, with Salamence and Xatu looking the worst, but the rest look best while in flight.

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Nah you're definitely not the only one, Pokemon flapping their wings as an idle animation is a great approach and looks gorgeous.

The issue most people have had is with - as you said - the persistent hovering left over from the Sky Battles.

 

[CatDoggo]

There's no reason it has to be all or nothing. Even in Stadium some pokemon fly by default (see: crobat).

Some pokemon (mainly birds) can be flying during their idles and some can be grounded.

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There is certainly some fliers that would be better off grounded. Skarmory's stadium model is probably the best version it ever had, and I've always felt Mega Salamence would look way better while on the ground. Example:

 

[ExoExplorer]

Honestly, I've never really gotten the argument that them having to redo the models is a good justification for the cut. Or the one that they'll have to cut Pokemon eventually cause there's just too many. Each new generation is supposed to be a step up from the last. They were able to have 800+ in Sun and Moon and we saw all of the supposed future-proofing in hd-models and walking animations. They've managed for 7 generations without cuts, I believe they could've figured out a way to go forward without having to resort to it.

Edit: At least in the context of the type of quality we are seeing. I could be convinced with a very big leap in the quality of animations or some other aspect.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Am I like the one person who's actually glad that the majority of the flying Pokemon have flying animations instead of grounded ones? Sure the ones that only hover are kind of dumb, with Salamence and Xatu looking the worst, but the rest look best while in flight. It actually bothered me as a kid that legendaries like Articuno, Moltres, Lugia and Ho-oh stayed grounded for the majority of their animations in the Stadium games, unless you used fly of course. It felt like they should have been flying in battle and the way they are now is pretty much exactly what I was hoping for. Look at the way Lugia slowly flaps its wings like its using its psychic abilities to help stay aloft. With the way its Pokedex entries state that a flap of its wings causes hurricanes, the way it slowly does it in its animation could be taken as it holding its full strength back. Little stuff like that is so cool and adds to the Pokemon. And I mean, look at Aerodactyl. It wouldn't look nearly as cool if it stayed grounded in battle.

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I truly hate Sky Battling animations butchering some of my favorites. Salamance should remain grounded.

 

[CatDoggo]

I truly hate Sky Battling animations butchering some of my favorites. Salamance should remain grounded.

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Which is ironic because Salamance's whole thing is that it wants to fly. LOL

 

[ThisIsBlitz21]

My friend made a good point.

Empoleon died for this:

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Which is ironic because Salamance's whole thing is that it wants to fly. LOL

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Haha yeah, at least he can fly with physical attack animations!

 

[SkullHydra]

It's obvious the models are the same, has anyone really argued against that?

I think it's common sense by now that that was an error when translating the interview, somehow "remade from scratch" was supposed to mean "made new textures", although I have no idea if this was Ohmori trying to sound confusing on purpose or just a mistake from the person who translated.

The person would have to be blind not to see the models are the same, we don't need data mining for that.

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There were a lot of people saying that their Japanese sources verified that it was 'from scratch', that the models might have had engine issues and had to be completely remade, and that even if the models looked similar, we couldn't confirm that they were the same. It was crazy.

 

[NHarmonic.]

I think this whole conversation dragged on so much because GF were never honest about the reason why they made that decision: it's just that they couldn't keep adding Pokemon and accumulating workload for every future game forever. It would had to stop at some point, be it 1000, 2000 or 10000 Pokemon, they had to draw a line somewhere and they did it here. I can totally understand that.

They even said something along those lines, but very vaguely, and also brought up lots of different reasons at different moments, and most of them sounded like bs, so people were engaged on discussing the possible reasons and debunking each other's theories when the real reason was always very simple, but never communicated well.

GF should have put more thought on how they would communicate a huge change like that, it's kind of amazing looking back how they really didn't. They mentioned it in a treehouse stream like its some minor detail, and then proceeded to say lots of different seemingly improvised things when shit hit the fan, which it obviously would.

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They made a point in mentioning how people valued the creatures they trained on prior games, and then proceeded to trash all of that, even now deleting trailers in youtube related to that kind of "legacy".

It's embarrassing and a shitfest of mismanagement by gamefreak.

 

[Deleted member 4532]

My friend made a good point.

Empoleon died for this:

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wait is this real? I must have missed this during the leaks.
Unreal...

 

[Madao]

Honestly, I've never really gotten the argument that them having to redo the models is a good justification for the cut. Or the one that they'll have to cut Pokemon eventually cause there's just too many. Each new generation is supposed to be a step up from the last. They were able to have 800+ in Sun and Moon and we saw all of the supposed future-proofing in hd-models and walking animations. They've managed for 7 generations without cuts, I believe they could've figured out a way to go forward without having to resort to it.

Edit: At least in the context of the type of quality we are seeing. I could be convinced with a very big leap in the quality of animations or some other aspect.

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the way i see it now is that there's not enough time to make all that and still retain their yearly release schedule. they'd rather cut half of the pokes instead of spending 4-5 years making a game with every poke in it.

 

[Serif]

It's obvious the models are the same, has anyone really argued against that?

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A couple of people were using a screenshot of Ribombee's model in Pokemon Refresh when zoomed out as evidence that the models were completely redone. Many others kept pointing to the new textures and shading, failing to recognize the distinction between a model's textures and its mesh (I'm pretty sure the Let's Go models were confirmed to have identical polycounts with updated textures). A lot of people kept bringing up the partner Pikachu and Eevee from Let's Go and their additional polygons - I'm pretty sure this is only due to them being more expressive in cutscenes and the partner interactions and is specific to these two.

I believe that they were readjusted and retextured with the 3DS models as a base. This is the only way I can make sense of it with the inconsistent overworld and battle scaling and the Sky Battle idle animations being unchanged.

 

[Hydrus]

Charizard: I WILL BRING PEACE, FREEDOM, JUSTICE, AND SECURITY TO MY NEW REGION!

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Hahahahahahaha! I'm dying at Anakin Charizard.

 

[Deleted member 29464]

Charizard: I WILL BRING PEACE, FREEDOM, JUSTICE, AND SECURITY TO MY NEW REGION!

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Brutal. Those poor starters.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

I believe that they were readjusted and retextured with the 3DS models as a base. This is the only way I can make sense of it with the inconsistent overworld and battle scaling and the Sky Battle idle animations being unchanged.

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This is where the comparison to the 3DS games comes from. Not from a graphical standpoint obviously, it's just the creature scaling and overall aesthetic give off that vibe that you're still playing on a handheld even when its a graphical jump. Honestly I would have gotten this game with my own money despite it all if they could at least ditch the purposely varied scaled Pokemon in battles. It's just something that bothers me after telling myself during the 3DS era "they have to accommodate for the small screen, things will be different on Switch".

 

[ExoExplorer]

the way i see it now is that there's not enough time to make all that and still retain their yearly release schedule. they'd rather cut half of the pokes instead of spending 4-5 years making a game with every poke in it.

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I would be completely fine if they reused old assets and stuck to updating new pokemon. Refresh some old ones as they go from generation to generation. Pokemon games have never struck me as changing much with each new game, so I can't see such a model impacting quality all that much. It's a shame but the higher-ups at Gamefreak decided cutting was the best choice. Maybe they couldn't think of anything else at least with the resources they're willing to spend on the main series. But it sure does feel as though they're making a big change away from one of the main selling points of Pokemon game.

 

[Mekanos]

This thread went down the shitter, and this time I don't blame it on Game Freak defenders.

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It sucks and the rest of us will suffer because a few people have to take out their disappointment on a video game on forum posters.

 

[Mekanos]

My friend made a good point.

Empoleon died for this:

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Empoleon is one of my favorite Pokemon but this guy also rules.

 

[Fj0823]

I would be completely fine if they reused old assets and stuck to updating new pokemon. Refresh some old ones as they go from generation to generation. Pokemon games have never struck me as changing much with each new game, so I can't see such a model impacting quality all that much. It's a shame but the higher-ups at Gamefreak decided cutting was the best choice. Maybe they couldn't think of anything else at least with the resources they're willing to spend on the main series. But it sure does feel as though they're making a big change away from one of the main selling points of Pokemon game.

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I would be fine if they do smaller games with limited dex for a couple of years and then do a big "EVERYONE IS HERE" game to end each Generation.

 

[Serif]

This is where the comparison to the 3DS games comes from. Not from a graphical standpoint obviously, it's just the creature scaling and overall aesthetic give off that vibe that you're still playing on a handheld even when its a graphical jump.

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Ironically Let's Go using chibi-sized models meant that larger Pokemon were more to-scale in relation to the player (combined with the fact that they did pay more attention to scale with Pokemon like Onix). With the trainer models returned to normal size, it seems like they didn't account for that in battle.

I just want it to look more like this:

And the most common response to this that people have had is "well, small Pokemon would be nearly invisible" - but that's not really the point. I don't care about how accurate the sizes are to the Dex measurements, I care more about the overall presentation of these Pokemon. It 'feels' like Tyranitar and Duraldon should be larger, and I'm ok with scaling up tiny Pokemon like Mimikyu for visibility. The 3DS screen crunch may have been a reasonable limitation, but they still made large Pokemon like Zygarde 100% and Necrozma tower over the player, and now we have Dynamax and even more screen space (also, Galarian Weezing is taller than the player - I'm sure they could've made Tyranitar bigger).

And I'm genuinely sorry to be hammering on these points that have been brought up over the past few months, but I was hoping that like Let's Go, a smaller roster meant more attention to detail in regards to stuff like this. That's the internal 'tradeoff' I've formulated in my head - make adjustments to the already existing models you've got for the smaller quantity of Pokemon present in this game.

 

[Fj0823]

Ironically Let's Go using chibi-sized models meant that larger Pokemon were more to-scale in relation to the player (combined with the fact that they did pay more attention to scale with Pokemon like Onix). With the trainer models returned to normal size, it seems like they didn't account for that in battle.

I just want it to look more like this:

And the most common response to this that people have had is "well, small Pokemon would be nearly invisible" - but that's not really the point. I don't care about how accurate the sizes are to the Dex measurements, I care more about the overall presentation of these Pokemon. It 'feels' like Tyranitar and Duraldon should be larger, and I'm ok with scaling up tiny Pokemon like Mimikyu for visibility. The 3DS screen crunch may have been a reasonable limitation, but they still made large Pokemon like Zygarde 100% and Necrozma tower over the player, and now we have Dynamax and even more screen space (also, Galarian Weezing is taller than the player - I'm sure they could've made Tyranitar bigger).

And I'm genuinely sorry to be hammering on these points that have been brought up over the past few months, but I was hoping that like Let's Go, a smaller roster meant more attention to detail in regards to stuff like this. That's the internal 'tradeoff' I've formulated in my head - make adjustments to the already existing models you've got for the smaller quantity of Pokemon present in this game.

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Jesus Christ that looks AWFUL.

 

[RocknRola]

That scaling is weird, very weird.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Ironically Let's Go using chibi-sized models meant that larger Pokemon were more to-scale in relation to the player (combined with the fact that they did pay more attention to scale with Pokemon like Onix). With the trainer models returned to normal size, it seems like they didn't account for that in battle.

I just want it to look more like this:

And the most common response to this that people have had is "well, small Pokemon would be nearly invisible" - but that's not really the point. I don't care about how accurate the sizes are to the Dex measurements, I care more about the overall presentation of these Pokemon. It 'feels' like Tyranitar and Duraldon should be larger, and I'm ok with scaling up tiny Pokemon like Mimikyu for visibility. The 3DS screen crunch may have been a reasonable limitation, but they still made large Pokemon like Zygarde 100% and Necrozma tower over the player, and now we have Dynamax and even more screen space (also, Galarian Weezing is taller than the player - I'm sure they could've made Tyranitar bigger).

And I'm genuinely sorry to be hammering on these points that have been brought up over the past few months, but I was hoping that like Let's Go, a smaller roster meant more attention to detail in regards to stuff like this. That's the internal 'tradeoff' I've formulated in my head - make adjustments to the already existing models you've got for the smaller quantity of Pokemon present in this game.

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Agreed 100%. The presentation excuse regarding tiny and gigantic Pokemon in particular fall flat when you have Dynamax Pokemon towering over the likes of Wailord and yet Cutiefly is still in this game. And it is still visible. Maybe the trainers shouldn't be in front of their big ass Pokemon. >_> I just hoped they'd address size scaling but it is exactly the same as the 3DS. Only difference is now I'm looking at a tiny Wailord in HD. There is scale in the overworld but the battles are where I spend most of my time.

 

[ExoExplorer]

I would be fine if they do smaller games with limited dex for a couple of years and then do a big "EVERYONE IS HERE" game to end each Generation.

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This sounds like a compromise I could get behind. At least something more than "maybe you'll see this Pokemon in a future generation but who knows when really". It would clash with the whole multimedia aspect Pokemon has going with the anime. But honestly, with how the new anime focuses on all the different regions, I can see each new series being less tied down to the new game region.

 

[Serif]

Agreed 100%. The presentation excuse regarding tiny and gigantic Pokemon in particular fall flat when you have Dynamax Pokemon towering over the likes of Wailord and yet Cutiefly is still in this game. And it is still visible. Maybe the trainers shouldn't be in front of their big ass Pokemon. >_> I just hoped they'd address size scaling but it is exactly the same as the 3DS. Only difference is now I'm looking at a tiny Wailord in HD. There is scale in the overworld but the battles are where I spend most of my time.

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(Tbh - they could've cut Wailord and avoided that specific problem entirely xD)

And yeah - they could've just made Pokemon like Tyranitar and Snorlax nearly as tall as Weezing here:

And still have teeny cute Pokemon like Rotom visible:

 

[Scarlet Spider]

(Tbh - they could've cut Wailord and avoided that specific problem entirely xD)

And yeah - they could've just made Pokemon like Tyranitar and Snorlax nearly as tall as Weezing here:

And still have teeny cute Pokemon like Rotom visible:

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Wish they did at this point. If tiny Pokemon are the issue then by all means scale them up. Scaling big Pokemon down just irks me, especially when viewing their dex info/height. Ah well, maybe next time in Gen 9. Gah, I'm doing it to myself again.

 

[PancakeFlip]

How is it different? Ruby and Sapphire launched with only 202 Pokemon, cutting a bunch.

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They were in the data, you could use a cheating device to put them in the wild to catch, which is what I did until FR and LG.

In Sword and Shield they aren't in the code period, so they just don't exist. If you use a cheat device it wouldn't be able to manipulate data to make the Pokemon exist if the Pokemon is not there.

 

[Serif]

Ah well, maybe next time in Gen 9. Gah, I'm doing it to myself again.

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I'm going to be honest - if they're going for a limited regional dex from now on, I just kind of want a soft reboot already with everything being rebuilt from the ground up, or a dex focused on the newer Pokemon.

Notice how the idle animations and model scaling for the new Pokemon look so much better? They are evidently putting effort into presentation for newer creatures but haven't updated their legacy Pokemon like Tyranitar, Wingull, Xatu, etc., whose issues originate from the lack of trainer models in Gen VI to compare Pokemon sizes to, or Sky Battles.

Maybe then we will finally see the return of following and riding Pokemon (I will never shut up about this, I would rather have my Princess Mononoke moments than camping, or ideally both).

 

[Ragnarok Flames]

I would be fine if they do smaller games with limited dex for a couple of years and then do a big "EVERYONE IS HERE" game to end each Generation.

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yeah lets wait... 10 years (typical length of a console gen) for a full game. all the while, Gamefreak is milking the fanbase with pokemon home and walled garden pokemon games.

 

[DaToonie]

Still hate how bad scaled down large Pokemon look... uuugh. That Dynamax screenshot just shows that visibility for all on screen isn't a rule. I can barely see what stands between Raichu and Machamp, lol. Please have Gen 9 finally correct this.

 

[Crayolan]

 

[fieldafar]

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It's a baby Wailord.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

It's a baby Wailord.

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When they grow bigger they start wearing lipstick

 

[RocknRola]

yeah lets wait... 10 years (typical length of a console gen) for a full game. all the while, Gamefreak is milking the fanbase with pokemon home and walled garden pokemon games.

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??
Longest gens so far have been ~7 years and even then Nintendo falls under a more traditional 5 year cycle rather than pushing for length.

 

[Unfriendly TimeTraveler]

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I would give anything for another coliseum or xd. Coliseum has some of the best tracks and the whole shadow Pokémon was an interesting mechanic.

Plus I remember the first time I saw a double battle with the wailords in that underground area really gave perspective how fucking big they are.

 

[CatDoggo]

Kakuna be like: Help, I've fallen and I can't get up.

 

[Serebii]

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We do have a reason for that. They scale it down so every Pokémon is visible on a portable screen at a glance, even with Dynamax.

I mean it's ridiculous but that's the reason

This is where the comparison to the 3DS games comes from. Not from a graphical standpoint obviously, it's just the creature scaling and overall aesthetic give off that vibe that you're still playing on a handheld even when its a graphical jump. Honestly I would have gotten this game with my own money despite it all if they could at least ditch the purposely varied scaled Pokemon in battles. It's just something that bothers me after telling myself during the 3DS era "they have to accommodate for the small screen, things will be different on Switch".

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Thing is, last year they made the statement that Let's Go was primarily for home console play while Sword & Shield focused more for handheld

 

[CatDoggo]

Heh, this one got me.

It really is just another wasted opportunity. It would have been pretty immersive to explore a vast place like the wild area with a partner following you around as you do so. You'd think if they were going to snap over half the mons out of existence, they'd at least figure out a way to make it so the remaining ones are able to follow you, but NOPE. That was one of the better additions to Let's Go too and it helped make up for the fact that you didn't see your team as often since they obvious didn't fight in wild battles.

 

[Deleted member 45130]

I've not played a pokemon game since yellow and they cut out all the originals? Why the fuck would I buy this game?

 

[Northern Lights]

I've not played a pokemon game since yellow and they cut out all the originals? Why the fuck would I buy this game?

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54 from Gen 1 are in the game, so not all are cut.

 

[RocknRola]

Heh, this one got me.

It really is just another wasted opportunity. It would have been pretty immersive to explore a vast place like the wild area with a partner following you around as you do so. You'd think if they were going to snap over half the mons out of existence, they'd at least figure out a way to make it so the remaining ones are able to follow you, but NOPE. That was one of the better additions to Let's Go too and it helped make up for the fact that you didn't see your team as often since they obvious didn't fight in wild battles.

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These play by different rules although it would be fun if you main Pokemon could always follow you around like in some entries of the series.