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Flame Flamey

Member
Feb 8, 2018
4,624
GRRM's world is sexist but his writing (for the most parts, he does fuck up sometimes) is not. His female characters find ways to overcome a toxic patriarchal society and carve out their own strength, either by embracing or rejecting their expected gender roles.

Compare:
Similar thing; I really did not like how the show had Brienne tell Jaime after he's had his hand cut off that he sounds like a woman when in the book it was her telling him he was a coward. I hate that trope of the strong, badass woman throwing all other women under the bus. Brienne (D&D) should know better than that, considering who she's sworn to.
 

crotchett

Banned
Apr 23, 2019
55
So many good points here by others members - I'm venting by reading about all plotholes, lol. I'll just add that episode 4 foreshadowed an epic Naval battle ala Season 2 finale, but Dany literally bum-rushes through a dozen battalions and countless giant crossbow bolts. Euron's arc was useless except to arouse suspicion about Cersei's unborn child, but the writers handled her demise in probably the worst way possible. Feelsbadman.jpg :(
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,494
So many good points here by others members - I'm venting by reading about all plotholes, lol. I'll just add that episode 4 foreshadowed an epic Naval battle ala Season 2 finale, but Dany literally bum-rushes through a dozen battalions and countless giant crossbow bolts. Euron's arc was useless except to arouse suspicion about Cersei's unborn child, but the writers handled her demise in probably the worst way possible. Feelsbadman.jpg :(

"I'm the man who killed Jaime Lannister!"

Nope, you're not.
 

Mocha

Member
Dec 9, 2017
925
tbh I always thought dany was going to be evil.

I feel like most plot points are fine but the writing, pacing, and fake death scenes are terrible.

They really should of made two full seasons and not cut these last two seasons short. It really fucked up the pacing.

edit: o woops this was suppose to be in the other thread, oh well.
 

Tribal_Cult

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,548
It's maybe because I was never a big fan of the series and always found it pretty boring or generic as a story, but goddamn I'm loving this season because they don't care anymore. Beautifully directed non-stop war and action, which is always been my favorite part of the show. I don't care about the story or characters anymore, I stopped doing that after the third season when the show became a slow boring carousel of nothing. Just fucking kill everybody and end it. I don't care. I want to see this show burn like Dany wanted to see King's Landing burn. Destroy everything to the fucking ground.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,237
I love this season so much. Dany the OP queen, not taking any prisoners <3 love IT!
Dany the killer of men, women, and children. Guilty or innocent it doesn't matter. She did what her mad king of a father failed to do.

It was inevitable. Selmy served her father and when he saw her crucify those slave masters he got a glimpse of what's in her. None of her behaviour surprises me and if I'm honest I feel vindicated in my belief since those early days that not only would people fear her and have no reason to welcome her, but that her madness would consume her.

And to be honest I don't get the criticisms of how they've treated her in the show. There were no chains to break, no slaves to free. She was the daughter of the mad king. She felt entitled to the throne and when the people failed to adore her and give her the adulation she felt she deserved she had the ultimate tantrum and crossed a line she can't go back on.

There are plenty of male characters who turn out this way in fiction so why can't she?
 

Arkaine

Member
Oct 30, 2017
268
If Bran really ends up on the throne then what the hell was the point of Jon being the true heir to the throne?
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
GRRM's world is sexist but his writing (for the most parts, he does fuck up sometimes) is not. His female characters find ways to overcome a toxic patriarchal society and carve out their own strength, either by embracing or rejecting their expected gender roles.

Compare:

This feels like a somewhat charitable reading of GRRM's work. I feel like people are using rose tinted glasses or different meters to judge show and books because the books are choke full of women being raped, killed, fridged, enslaved and abused to serve as narrative tools in telling the story of male characters.

The big problem is (and here D&D made a real mess) that there's several instances where GRRM actually did push some great female characters in interesting arcs, and D&D had/choose to cut them. The consequences of Oberyn's death in the books lead to very interesting, if a bit slow, female-led storylines. In the show, we get the Bad Pussies™ that act fundamentally as a weak foil turned victory lap for Cersei.


It's also important to keep in mind that such a long lived show ends up creating dynamics that are based on an actor or character's popularity, by contracts and what not. Cersei in the books is almost a minor character compared to show Cersei.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,850
Dany the killer of men, women, and children. Guilty or innocent it doesn't matter. She did what her mad king of a father failed to do.

It was inevitable. Selmy served her father and when he saw her crucify those slave masters he got a glimpse of what's in her. None of her behaviour surprises me and if I'm honest I feel vindicated in my belief since those early days that not only would people fear her and have no reason to welcome her, but that her madness would consume her.

And to be honest I don't get the criticisms of how they've treated her in the show. There were no chains to break, no slaves to free. She was the daughter of the mad king. She felt entitled to the throne and when the people failed to adore her and give her the adulation she felt she deserved she had the ultimate tantrum and crossed a line she can't go back on.

There are plenty of male characters who turn out this way in fiction so why can't she?

The problem is not her turning into a mad queen, the problem is how the writers made her do the turn. That's the gist of most criticisms of the show this season : the execution is terrible. The plot points are mostly fine, it's the way we reach said plot points that's shit.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,237
They may not be slaves in the same way that Essos has it, but the smallfolk aren't really free people
And who did she burn alive again? She never cared about the people. It was all about what she wanted.
The problem is not her turning into a mad queen, the problem is how the writers made her do the turn. That's the gist of most criticisms of the show this season : the execution is terrible. The plot points are mostly fine, it's the way we reach said plot points that's shit.
Because the entire thing was rushed due to limited time, not just her character arc.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
If Bran really ends up on the throne then what the hell was the point of Jon being the true heir to the throne?

The point of Jon being the true heir is to facilitate Danaerys' fall.

Jon was never meant to be king. He's not capable to be one. People saw the cute little baby opening his eyes juxtaposing on Jon and went "YYYYYEAAAAHHH" when it was basically the foreshadowing of the event that would doom everyone.

You won't get the cute little baby moment in the books. You'll get doom and gloom..

I still wonder how people who considered Danaerys the heroine of the story could assume that Jon's true heritage was a good thing.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
And who did she burn alive again? She never cared about the people. It was all about what she wanted.

People still can't see this. They've called Clarke's acting innatural for so long because of her "throwing tantrums" and stiffening up whenever the idea of her getting the throne was challenged, and now they say "it's unearned".

People wanted to see what they wanted to see.
 

Pokémon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,679
The only moment I liked about the episode was when Tyrion emotionally tells Jaime that he would not have survived if he weren't there. I had tears in my eyes. But yeah everything else was one sloppy garbage. Also good to see that the casuals are starting to realizing it too. The like/dislike ratio for the inside episode is really not a good look for D&D.
 

YukiroCTX

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,994
The only way I justify the situation of Daenerys attack is not the reason given with the sight of Red Keep but that Daenerys is at the point see's how easily the soldiers and citizens giving in effectively betraying their former queen so quickly when she goes full out which basically infuriates her after all the losses she's dealt with by her enemies combined with the history of what the Lannisters did to KL to the Targs. The knowledge that this is exactly what she should have done in the first place, the terrible plans from advisors that end up betraying her who landed her in this particular position in the first place noone she can rely anymore that she absolutely shows no mercy as an act not just for vengeance but solidifying her rule in fear going against their advice which would seem like it absolutely worked given the reactions. The only person left she can only trust now is GW as he's been with her since the start and also lost someone and he's all about vengeance too which further validates her decisions. That's what I would have thought instead.

In a strange way, it's because of her not listening to herself in the first place that things are where they are. If she attacked the Red Keep straight away in the first place, Lannisters would have surrendered so fast and would have united the Kingdoms against the WW. The only thing she's going to lose out on are her current advisors who were going to betray her down the line anyway but she would still have other allies alive. Like someones going to have to explain to me how attacking the Red Keep is any different from any other castle invasion in Westeros.
i
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,326
If they're gonna grade this is the 48% range, I recommend they go back and honestly regrade The Dance of Dragons.
 
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UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
The only way I justify the situation of Daenerys attack is not the reason given with the sight of Red Keep but that Daenerys is at the point see's how easily the soldiers and citizens giving in effectively betraying their former queen so quickly when she goes full out which basically infuriates her after all the losses she's dealt with by her enemies combined with the history of what the Lannisters did to KL to the Targs. The knowledge that this is exactly what she should have done in the first place, the terrible plans from advisors that end up betraying her who landed her in this particular position in the first place noone she can rely anymore that she absolutely shows no mercy as an act not just for vengeance but solidifying her rule in fear going against their advice which would seem like it absolutely worked given the reactions. The only person left she can only trust now is GW as he's been with her since the start and also lost someone and he's all about vengeance too which further validates her decisions. That's what I would have thought instead.

In a strange way, it's because of her not listening to herself in the first place that things are where they are. If she attacked the Red Keep straight away in the first place, Lannisters would have surrendered so fast and would have united the Kingdoms against the WW. The only thing she's going to lose out on are her current advisors who were going to betray her down the line anyway but she would still have other allies alive. Like someones going to have to explain to me how attacking the Red Keep is any different from any other castle invasion in Westeros.
i

Tyrion and Varys were the worst things that ever happened to Dany. If she did it her way, they'd have won much more easily.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,237
I don't think her freeing of slaves in Essos, and her burning of smallfolk in Westeros, come from the same place in her character.
I think it is. Two sides of the same coin. She was addicted to adoration and massacred people when they continually rebuffed her. Freeing slaves wasn't her goal. That was just a consequence of her campaign to regain the Irone Throne. Remember how quickly she abandoned the cities she conquered / freed in Essos only for them to be reclaimed by their previous masters?

She could have chosen to have ruled them well but ultimately she's a conqueror driven by her own insatiable and entitled need to be on top. She's not the breaker of chains. She's the one that binds Westeros in figurative chains of fear and tyranny.
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
I've been lucky enough until now to not have gotten into a show where by the end i disliked everything had turned into. It helps that I would only ever start watching a show that finished airing, so I knew whether the quality remained based on reviews.

But here I am with Game of Thrones feeling completely let down and upset with how everything has turned out. I've always been one to accept the director's vision instead of my own head canon, so what happens in this final season isn't the problem - it's the fact that none of this was earned or developed properly. Everything has been pure spectacle with no substance. Visual porn for the dumb. I hate it all.

Now I wish I didn't pick up Game of Thrones again three years ago after having left off after season 3. Seems like much better times.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Jeesh at people defending Dany's arc's conclusion. Yeah some seeds were sown that could have been cultivated in the story to become a Mad Queen arc for Dany. But they very much weren't. Like, we basically just saw her being merciful to Jaime who is responsible for killing the last Targaryen king. Yet suddenly we should believe she'd gleefully burn down all of King's Landing.

And these "she previously had advisors holding back her crazy" arguments are crazy. Like, in Meereen everyone else was being all "Dany you're being too soft, you can't let the slavers play you like this" and yet Dany was the one willing to compromise & try to find a peaceful solution even as her people were being slaughtered on the streets. Even when she lost her dearest advisor.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,326
game_of_thrones_s03e09__kissthemgoodbye_net_1114.jpg
 

Flame Flamey

Member
Feb 8, 2018
4,624
I think it is. Two sides of the same coin. She was addicted to adoration and massacred people when they continually rebuffed her. Freeing slaves wasn't her goal. That was just a consequence of her campaign to regain the Irone Throne. Remember how quickly she abandoned the cities she conquered / freed in Essos only for them to be reclaimed by their previous masters?

She could have chosen to have ruled them well but ultimately she's a conqueror driven by her own insatiable and entitled need to be on top. She's not the breaker of chains. She's the one that binds Westeros in figurative chains of fear and tyranny.
Well I disagree, I think Dany fundamentally has an altruistic streak, and a desire to help the downtrodden because she too was downtrodden once. She also has a ruthless and obsessive desire for a home, for the throne, and I do think these two qualities intersect at times such as in her brutal punishments and actions. But I do not think she did things like saving Mirri, freeing the slaves, etc, just because she has an addiction for adoration.

Also, there's never been any mention in the show that the cities in Essos have been reconquered. For all we know, Daario is still keeping things fine over there.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,237
The only way I justify the situation of Daenerys attack is not the reason given with the sight of Red Keep but that Daenerys is at the point see's how easily the soldiers and citizens giving in effectively betraying their former queen so quickly when she goes full out which basically infuriates her after all the losses she's dealt with by her enemies combined with the history of what the Lannisters did to KL to the Targs. The knowledge that this is exactly what she should have done in the first place, the terrible plans from advisors that end up betraying her who landed her in this particular position in the first place noone she can rely anymore that she absolutely shows no mercy as an act not just for vengeance but solidifying her rule in fear going against their advice which would seem like it absolutely worked given the reactions. The only person left she can only trust now is GW as he's been with her since the start and also lost someone and he's all about vengeance too which further validates her decisions. That's what I would have thought instead.

In a strange way, it's because of her not listening to herself in the first place that things are where they are. If she attacked the Red Keep straight away in the first place, Lannisters would have surrendered so fast and would have united the Kingdoms against the WW. The only thing she's going to lose out on are her current advisors who were going to betray her down the line anyway but she would still have other allies alive. Like someones going to have to explain to me how attacking the Red Keep is any different from any other castle invasion in Westeros.
i
Citizens giving in? They're people living their lives not soldiers taking a stand. She could've gone straight for the keep and killed Cersei but she deliberately stopped along the way to incinerate people she was told were innocent.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,237
Well I disagree, I think Dany fundamentally has an altruistic streak, and a desire to help the downtrodden because she too was downtrodden once. She also has a ruthless and obsessive desire for a home, for the throne, and I do think these two qualities intersect at times such as in her brutal punishments and actions. But I do not think she did things like saving Mirri, freeing the slaves, etc, just because she has an addiction for adoration.

Also, there's never been any mention in the show that the cities in Essos have been reconquered. For all we know, Daario is still keeping things fine over there.
Yunkai was specifically mentioned in the show with a whole battle taking place. But regardless, she never again visited the other cities and left a ex-sellsword in charge of running one city despite there being an established trend toward rebellion and the reestablishment of a slave trade.
 

Fatoy

Member
Mar 13, 2019
7,220
I don't even understand why he's in the show.

Basically he's going to end up the leader because he's not really a person, he's an emotionless husk that can make decisions based on knowledge rather than emotion? He is all knowing so he knows what has happened and will happen? It just seems like such a boring choice.
What if the ice and fire of the series' title are human emotions, and what's played out over the last eight seasons is the death-throes of love and hate, after which the world will be governed by a dispassionate robot who stands outside time?

Lol
 

ProfessorLobo

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,523
Just saw it. I don't even know where to start.

It's not even going to be fun to like, make fun of like the last few episodes. It just makes me sad.
 
Sep 28, 2018
495
I think it is. Two sides of the same coin. She was addicted to adoration and massacred people when they continually rebuffed her. Freeing slaves wasn't her goal. That was just a consequence of her campaign to regain the Irone Throne. Remember how quickly she abandoned the cities she conquered / freed in Essos only for them to be reclaimed by their previous masters?

She could have chosen to have ruled them well but ultimately she's a conqueror driven by her own insatiable and entitled need to be on top. She's not the breaker of chains. She's the one that binds Westeros in figurative chains of fear and tyranny.

This is kind of revisionist. Dany was bought and sold as a slave. She went on an idealistic crusade to free them all because she sympathized with their plight having been under that life herself - not of some addiction to adoration lol. And as someone else posted, we're not getting anything extra on the Essos front so the show wants us to believe Daario and the Second Sons kept the peace there indefinitely.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
This is kind of revisionist. Dany was bought and sold as a slave. She went on an idealistic crusade to free them all because she sympathized with their plight having been under that life herself - not of some addiction to adoration lol. And as someone else posted, we're not getting anything extra on the Essos front so the show wants us to believe Daario and the Second Sons kept the peace there indefinitely.

A whole lot of retconning of her character IMO. There's never a scene in the show previous to the "great plot rush" where she throws a hissy fit because she didn't get enough adulation or something like that. That's not part of her character until now it's basically the central part of it.

She wanted to free slaves because it was the right thing to do.
 
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