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May 26, 2018
23,999
Like I said, D&D's irreverent nihilism has led them to make the Breaker of Chains — the emancipator — Hitler, Actually, and all her PoC followers the nazis.

Take heart, GRMM isn't this. He isn't a nihilist. He's an idealist.

This is lazy fucking bullshit and a momentous way to give ever more truth to my ranting about them being ignorant, sexist, racist, homophobic manchildren concerned only with Shock Value and sUbVErTinG eXpECtAtIoNs.

The Bran ending isn't tremendously idealistic though, right? Mankind is totally fucked up so a living god has to rule so that all the grown children can live in peace. It's the Helios ending of Deus Ex. Not nihilistic, but doesn't have a lot of belief in mankind to figure out their own issues. Like, "that's enough; if you can't sort it out, fuck it. Go live in a gigantic crib managed by a god. You were praying enough to gods anyway. So here you go. Peace out, fuckers!"
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,462
The Bran ending isn't tremendously idealistic though, right? Mankind is totally fucked up so a living god has to rule so that all the grown children can live in peace. It's the Helios ending of Deus Ex. Not nihilistic, but doesn't have a lot of belief in mankind to figure out their own issues.

We don't know what form a hypothetical Bran Ending will take in the books, if there is one.
 

SArcher

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,669
brehs just imagine when she sees the last episode where the love for a man is the reason why Jon puts Dany down like a rabid dog.
worst part of all this is ERA itself justifying how it was FOresSHAdoWED not seeing the blalant sexism in the writting

She has already read the leaks so she knows.
 

Sinder

Banned
Jul 24, 2018
7,576
Next week is going to be so bad. So fucking bad! I didnt want to bring this up earlier, but someone else on reddit did it for me, but when I saw the preview for next episode, this is exactly what came to mind:
nn9zst44jay21.jpg
The red circle is a Targaryen flag. Killing innocents and the whole Nazi imagery ( Yeah, I know its somewhat common when it comes to villains) is just going to take this Daenerys backlash to a whole new level. I've said this before, but I'll say it again, Poor Emilia Clarke. She's gonna have to explain this to all the women that looked up to her character. Fuck the writers.

She just killed half a million civilians or more, so I'm not sure what your point is.

And Emilia isn't responsible for the expectations of anyone. She's her own person, she doesn't have to do shit. Even D&D aren't responsible for temper tantrums from fans. People going apeshit over the finale of a widely watched series isn't new, this has been happening since Seinfeld.
 

Buddy1103

Member
Jan 8, 2019
540
I wish we didn't know what happened so we could hypothesize that Bran warged into Drogon. Hence why we never saw Dany's reaction to the carnage. She was freaking out trying to make it stop. It wouldn't be true, but we could at least have some intrigue going into the last bit. lol
in my mind he warged back in time to make bells a trigger for danny so she could burn the city and subsequently be killed. he's been playing a game of 4d chess this entire time for the throne and no one suspected a thing!

it won't be true but i have to believe :'(

Edit : wasn't the episode where Bran wargs back in time and messes with Hodor called ''The Door''? and the last episode was called "The Bells". hmmmm coincidence?
 
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Burt

Fight Sephiroth or end video games
Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,138
Next week is going to be so bad. So fucking bad! I didnt want to bring this up earlier, but someone else on reddit did it for me, but when I saw the preview for next episode, this is exactly what came to mind:
nn9zst44jay21.jpg
The red circle is a Targaryen flag. Killing innocents and the whole Nazi imagery ( Yeah, I know its somewhat common when it comes to villains) is just going to take this Daenerys backlash to a whole new level. I've said this before, but I'll say it again, Poor Emilia Clarke. She's gonna have to explain this to all the women that looked up to her character. Fuck the writers.
It'd be a stretch to call it a 'fear', but something I'm 'mildly anxious' about in the same way that you might be about your favorite sports team in the playoffs is the repercussions it might have for the actors and actresses involved. DnD basically shit on the floor on the way out and left everyone else to clean it up. People who aren't responsible are potentially going to catch the brunt of this. Emilia Clarke, in particular, has been meme'd to hell and back when she's pretty much always had the hardest job on the show.

Being angry is easy, being sullen and gruff is easy, being smarmy is easy, having to sit there and silently, motionless and emote the reaction to devastating news constantly is actually difficult, and the amount of times she's had to do it is borderline absurd. Where are mah dragons whatever, I rewatched the first season or so recently and she's good. She's had ups and downs between now and then, but she's probably better this season than she's ever been.

Fortunately, the kickback on this season has been real, and even the "WHERE ARE MAH DRAGONS" types seem to have really pared it back, and the wider internet seems to recognize that this is some bullshit. I really do hope that no one holds anything against anyone. Emilia Clarke'll probably be okay, but I look at secondary characters like Missandei and Greyworm losing capital by the episode and just ughhhhh. Kit Harrington, y'know, whatever. He hasn't had much room to spread his wings this season, but there are plenty of roles out there that are his to lose.
Man, you fans are going to be so mad when Martin finishes her arc in the same way in the books ...

As many have already pointed out: the writting was on the wall with her.
Heck, the premonition from many seasons ago gave it away that she would be the queen of the ashes.

Her arc development was rushed, but it's pretty clear that the finishing line was always meant to be like this.

And considering her actions recently, the nazi comparison serves her well
Literally no one is complaining about Daenerys going crazy. They're complaining about her going from 'not crazy' to 'crazy in the span of two episodes.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Man, you fans are going to be so mad when Martin finishes her arc in the same way in the books ...

As many have already pointed out: the writting was on the wall with her.
Heck, the premonition from many seasons ago gave it away that she would be the queen of the ashes.

Her arc development was rushed, but it's pretty clear that the finishing line was always meant to be like this.

And considering her actions recently, the nazi comparison serves her well

Eeeeh. Same endpoint different context. It's really clear now that Daenerys is following Stannis' trajectory.

People are pissed about the execution. It was as bungled as Anakin's turn in ROTS.

She saves the world the world from the White Walkers.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

And then fries the people of King's Landing.

But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.

What was she? A hero or a villain? She was both.
 

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,457
If done right, her arc probably would have been comparable to Walter White.

But alas, she's Anakin Skywalker.
 

Burt

Fight Sephiroth or end video games
Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,138
If done right, her arc probably would have been comparable to Walter White.

But alas, she's Anakin Skywalker.
This is a good, concise analogy.

Except she's somehow like 1/4 Anakin Skywalker despite 73 hours of runtime.

Still a good analogy though.
 

Ikuu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,294
Like I said, D&D's irreverent nihilism has led them to make the Breaker of Chains — the emancipator — Hitler, Actually, and all her PoC followers the nazis.

Take heart, GRMM isn't this. He isn't a nihilist. He's an idealist.

This is lazy fucking bullshit and a momentous way to give ever more truth to my ranting about them being ignorant, sexist, racist, homophobic manchildren concerned only with Shock Value and sUbVErTinG eXpECtAtIoNs.

It's amazing how GRRM manages to stay clean from all the backlash, this is how it was always going to end, D&D have bungled the arc but Dany was always going to murder thousands.
 

Sinder

Banned
Jul 24, 2018
7,576
Like I said, D&D's irreverent nihilism has led them to make the Breaker of Chains — the emancipator — Hitler, Actually, and all her PoC followers the nazis.

Take heart, GRMM isn't this. He isn't a nihilist. He's an idealist.

This is lazy fucking bullshit and a momentous way to give ever more truth to my ranting about them being ignorant, sexist, racist, homophobic manchildren concerned only with Shock Value and sUbVErTinG eXpECtAtIoNs.

I guess we're now beyond TLJ territory. If you don't like something in a show, just accuse the people responsible of being every single bad label you can think of in an embarrassingly emotional rant.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,419
Phoenix, AZ
They straight up thought raping Sansa was a good idea instead of sending her to the Vale to learn and grow, they have had no idea what character development is since they began to run out of book material.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,462
I guess we're now beyond TLJ territory. If you don't like something in a show, just accuse the people responsible of being every single bad label you can think of in an embarrassingly emotional rant.

Emotional? lol. It's a TV show, mate. Spare me this disingenuous ad hominem.

I've exhaustively backed up my labelling, while you contribute little of substance to said topic beyond short drive-bys such as this, attacking other posters rather than engaging as I do.
 

jfkgoblue

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,650
They straight up thought raping Sansa was a good idea instead of sending her to the Vale to learn and grow, they have had no idea what character development is since they began to run out of book material.
Tbf, in the book someone still gets raped by Ramsey and it is far worse, but since it's not a main character people didn't really care.
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
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Oct 30, 2017
16,907
Tbf, in the book someone still gets raped by Ramsey and it is far worse, but since it's not a main character people didn't really care.
That wasn't Sansa.
But even when they merged the storylines. Examine the wedding scenes. I believe there were two other random Northerners at Show! Sansa's wedding.

At Fake Arya's wedding, there was the tension that every Northerner in attendance wanted to kill Ramsey but feared if that was the actual Arya. There is an entire conspiracy ongoing in the background. In the show. Not a thing.

D&D are trash.
 

Deleted member 225

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
1,658
Honestly, I can't wait for Sunday to come just so it can be over. It's such an exhausting show.

At least I have season two of Big Little Lies coming.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,462
Thinking a few pages back about Viserys...why didn't Doran pay for them to be sheltered?

Part of Doran's characterization is that he's paralytically cautious, to the point where the parties on whom he sought vengeance died before his plans came to fruition. To his sorrow, he'll find out that his consumption by long game vengeance gets most of his then-living family killed.
 

jfkgoblue

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,650
That wasn't Sansa.
But even when they merged the storylines. Examine the wedding scenes. I believe there were two other random Northerners at Show! Sansa's wedding.

At Fake Arya's wedding, there was the tension that every Northerner in attendance wanted to kill Ramsey but feared if that was the actual Arya. There is an entire conspiracy ongoing in the background. In the show. Not a thing.

D&D are trash.
Yeah I know that it was Jeyne Pool that got raped, but I'm saying that people only cared about how awful the rape was in the show because it was Sansa. No one cared about poor Jeyne, even with the far worse rape scene in the book that was probably the hardest part of the books to read because of how terrible it was.

Yeah D&D completely fucked it up, but most people only hate it so much because instead of a basically no-name character having to go through it, it was Sansa that did.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,419
Phoenix, AZ
Tbf, in the book someone still gets raped by Ramsey and it is far worse, but since it's not a main character people didn't really care.

its more they robbed her of ACTUALLY learning to scheme and play politics on-screen on her own instead of it just being implied she learned everything from her time with Cersei.

The rape is still horrible in the books but in the show they use it as a shortcut to make a female main character "grow" instead of... actually having her grow through gained wisdom. That's the biggest offense. It made lines like "she's the smartest person I've met" seem silly when they shouldn't be at all.
 

Disclaimer

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Oct 25, 2017
11,462
Yeah I know that it was Jeyne Pool that got raped, but I'm saying that people only cared about how awful the rape was in the show because it was Sansa. No one cared about poor Jeyne, even with the far worse rape scene in the book that was probably the hardest part of the books to read because of how terrible it was.

Yeah D&D completely fucked it up, but most people only hate it so much because instead of a basically no-name character having to go through it, it was Sansa that did.

People have vehemently criticized Jeyne's treatment in the books as egregious.

It's worse when applied to Sansa, though, because it doesn't fit her journey. What D&D tried to do — literally verbalized this season — was have Sansa's rape and abuse serve as empowerment, which is a profoundly wrong notion. Sansa did not need her abuses or abusers to gain strength or canniness; she already had those things.
 
May 26, 2018
23,999
its more they robbed her of ACTUALLY learning to scheme and play politics on-screen on her own instead of it just being implied she learned everything from her time with Cersei.

The rape is still horrible in the books but in the show they use it as a shortcut to make a female main character "grow" instead of... actually having her grow through gained wisdom. That's the biggest offense. It made lines like "she's the smartest person I've met" seem silly when they shouldn't be at all.

Is it weird that one of the differences between the show and the books is that the show has people getting raped who never got raped in the books

That seems weird to me. Like, why focus in on that?
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,907
Yeah I know that it was Jeyne Pool that got raped, but I'm saying that people only cared about how awful the rape was in the show because it was Sansa. No one cared about poor Jeyne, even with the far worse rape scene in the book that was probably the hardest part of the books to read because of how terrible it was.

Yeah D&D completely fucked it up, but most people only hate it so much because instead of a basically no-name character having to go through it, it was Sansa that did.
It was terrible what happened to Jeyne. But why Jeyne had that storyline made sense. She somewhat resembled Arya and knew enough about Wintetfell to be able to pass.

Sansa has suffered tremendously. We finally were about to see her begin to develop a scheming mentality and grow in the Vale. But the Id&dts that be deemed that boring and decided we needed to see her raped to further character development and add shock to the show. It not only was demeaning to her character and previous strifes, but also is a used out trope and poor writing.

Part of Doran's characterization is that he's paralytically cautious, to the point where the parties on whom he sought vengeance died before his plans came to fruition. To his sorrow, he'll find out that his consumption by long game vengeance gets most of his then-living family killed.
I always oscillate about Doran. His explanation made sense. Dorne could have rebelled and it's the hardest kingdom to conquer, but that wouldn't get them revenge and it would have resulted in additional Dornish lives. But his long game with Viserys makes no sense if he wasn't even attempting to ensure their survival.

Some theory mentioned that Jon Arryn threatens Doran by exposing Prince Lewan as not trying once he had command of the Dornish forces in battle. Which makes sense.
 

jfkgoblue

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,650
its more they robbed her of ACTUALLY learning to scheme and play politics on-screen on her own instead of it just being implied she learned everything from her time with Cersei.

The rape is still horrible in the books but in the show they use it as a shortcut to make a female main character "grow" instead of... actually having her grow through gained wisdom. That's the biggest offense. It made lines like "she's the smartest person I've met" seem silly when they shouldn't be at all.
People have vehemently criticized Jeyne's treatment in the books as egregious.

It's worse when applied to Sansa, though, because it doesn't fit her journey. What D&D tried to do — literally verbalized this season — was have Sansa's rape and abuse serve as empowerment, which is a profoundly wrong notion. Sansa did not need her abuses or abusers to gain strength or canniness; she already had those things.
It was terrible what happened to Jeyne. But why Jeyne had that storyline made sense. She somewhat resembled Arya and knew enough about Wintetfell to be able to pass.

Sansa has suffered tremendously. We finally were about to see her begin to develop a scheming mentality and grow in the Vale. But the Id&dts that be deemed that boring and decided we needed to see her raped to further character development and add shock to the show. It not only was demeaning to her character and previous strifes, but also is a used out trope and poor writing.


I always oscillate about Doran. His explanation made sense. Dorne could have rebelled and it's the hardest kingdom to conquer, but that wouldn't get them revenge and it would have resulted in additional Dornish lives. But his long game with Viserys makes no sense if he wasn't even attempting to ensure their survival.

Some theory mentioned that Jon Arryn threatens Doran by exposing Prince Lewan as not trying once he had command of the Dornish forces in battle. Which makes sense.
Yeah I suppose you guys are right, and there are serious issues with how it ruined Sansa's arc just for shock value(not to mention how having a rape be used for shock value is very troublesome by itself), but it has always seemed to me that a lot of people just hated that it was Sansa that was raped, not for any other reasons. They did make it far worse in hindsight as well with "I wouldn't be who I am today without Ramsey" though.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,462
I always oscillate about Doran. His explanation made sense. Dorne could have rebelled and it's the hardest kingdom to conquer, but that wouldn't get them revenge and it would have resulted in additional Dornish lives. But his long game with Viserys makes no sense if he wasn't even attempting to ensure their survival.

Yeah, absolutely. He recognizes the value of Dornish lives, of the children so emblematic of peace's worth in his Water Gardens, but... he still pursues vengeance — sloppily and slothfully — and it will shatter that peace, along with his remaining family.

It's unfortunate that he didn't take a more active role in training Arianne. She's one of my favorite PoVs, but she's likely going to be impulsive in marrying fAegon, and her and her cousins are going to share in his fiery doom in King's Landing. (Ugh.)
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Tbf, in the book someone still gets raped by Ramsey and it is far worse, but since it's not a main character people didn't really care.

I mean...is it worse? Jeyne was raped and tortured off-screen. Sansa was raped and tortured off-screen. The only difference is that Jeyne insinuates that Ramsay was trying to push Jeyne to bed down dogs.

But regardless, Sansa didn't need to be raped to be developed. Why did Benioff and Weiss adapt this part of the Northern storyline (which was the worst part) and ditch everything else?
 

jfkgoblue

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,650
I mean...is it worse? Jeyne was raped and tortured off-screen. Sansa was raped and tortured off-screen. The only difference is that Jeyne insinuates that Ramsay was trying to push Jeyne to bed down dogs.

But regardless, Sansa didn't need to be raped to be developed. Why did Benioff and Weiss adapt this part of the Northern storyline (which was the worst part) and ditch everything else?
It's not entirely offscreen iirc, I do remember Reek was forced to be an active participant as well. But yeah I get how it ruined Sansa's arc.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Tbf, in the book someone still gets raped by Ramsey and it is far worse, but since it's not a main character people didn't really care.

Let's not forget that people get angry that the camera focuses on Theon in the show, while in the books he's forced to partecipate.

The books are infinitely more cruel (and rapey) but people seem to forget that because they want to weaponize D&D's unnecessary and distasteful rape scenes as arguments for them being hacks who are ruining the series. Which is an incredibly cynical thing to do, if you ask me.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
It's not entirely offscreen iirc, I do remember Reek was forced to be an active participant as well. But yeah I get how it ruined Sansa's arc.

Forgot about that but also off-screen. The page chapter ends right as all the horror is about to start.

Let's not forget that people get angry that the camera focuses on Theon in the show, while in the books he's forced to partecipate.

The books are infinitely more cruel (and rapey) but people seem to forget that because they want to weaponize D&D's unnecessary and distasteful rape scenes as arguments for them being hacks who are ruining the series. Which is an incredibly cynical thing to do, if you ask me.

It makes it more about Theon than it does about Sansa at the end despite Sansa being the one being raped. That's the issue.

Theon being forced to participate is Ramsay sexually assaulting both Jeyne and Theon. It's equally about both of them because they're both being coerced into sex.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
It makes it more about Theon than it does about Sansa at the end despite Sansa being the one being raped. That's the issue.

I'm still not completely persuaded by that argument. I don't think it makes it about Theon, it's just a device the authors used to show the scene without showing it. There's really no goal or nuance in that, it's just a terrible scene that is terribly shot.
 

Kayla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,316
Next week is going to be so bad. So fucking bad! I didnt want to bring this up earlier, but someone else on reddit did it for me, but when I saw the preview for next episode, this is exactly what came to mind:
nn9zst44jay21.jpg
The red circle is a Targaryen flag. Killing innocents and the whole Nazi imagery ( Yeah, I know its somewhat common when it comes to villains) is just going to take this Daenerys backlash to a whole new level. I've said this before, but I'll say it again, Poor Emilia Clarke. She's gonna have to explain this to all the women that looked up to her character. Fuck the writers.

Can i just say that the idea that any "woman" looking up to dany is stupid? Emilia Clarke also doesn't have to explain shit. This is pretty much the same way the books are ending, the only issue people have with dany going mad is how rushed and unearned it is in the show.
 

Deleted member 8674

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,240
Man, you fans are going to be so mad when Martin finishes her arc in the same way in the books ...

As many have already pointed out: the writting was on the wall with her.
Heck, the premonition from many seasons ago gave it away that she would be the queen of the ashes.

Her arc development was rushed, but it's pretty clear that the finishing line was always meant to be like this.

And considering her actions recently, the nazi comparison serves her well

The problem is they rushed it. My problem is not that Dany went insane but when she locks her dragons buy one of them killed a girl by mistake and the next episode is her barbecuing everyone that's just stupid.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
People pouring through interviews to create conspiratorial takes on what the actors actually believe isn't even the most embarrassing part of the online meltdowns.

Yea, the most embrassing thing is the folks defending the show runners for their script filled with sexist shit and other problematic iss--

I guess we're now beyond TLJ territory. If you don't like something in a show, just accuse the people responsible of being every single bad label you can think of in an embarrassingly emotional rant.

Oh. There we go.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
In the books, Jon kidnapped Gilly's baby from her and threatened to murder him if Gilly didn't do what he said.

Bran has eaten people. Unintentionally. Still a cannibal though.

Arya is a serial killer that gets an almost sexual thrill out of murder.

Daenerys has had a father's daughters tortured to pry info out of him and has committed mass murder against teenagers("slay anyone wearing a tokar over the age of 12).

Sansa ratted on Ned to Cersei thereby helping Cersei beat Ned.

Tyrion has had a singer killed and fed him to the poor. He molested Sansa on their wedding night and almost raped her. And becomes a rapist in ADWD.
 
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