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Feb 3, 2018
1,130
They'll send parties North of the Wall to find Jon. Dude can't win.

SFx7gRuv8yyJ6eqMkrXIVFInsGU=.gif
 

Ocean Bones

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,725
I don't think they sold it that well then. They always alluded to the potential of Targaryens being mad, but my impression was always that Dany was different. I didn't get any vibe of her being a mad tyrant until maybe last season and it wasn't really expanded upon. In general, a longer season would have probably given them a bit more time to develop this either way.

I'm not just trying to shit on the writers, but I feel that a lot of nuance was lost from the show when they had to start handling the major story beats rather than solely follow the template set by the books. Reading the books, I understand motivations of characters and it feels somewhat consistent, the early seasons also do an alright job of this. Currently, it feels like characters change simply based on how they need them to fit into whatever situation.

She couldn't even watch gladiators fight to the death a couple seasons ago without it making her sick. Nows she's cool with burning thousands cause her boyfriend dumped her.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
I think one of the most confusing plot motivation aspects of the season (and something that will be far more interesting to watch develop in the books) is Dany's face-value acceptance of Jon telling her what is essentially an InfoWars conspiracy theory that he is actually the rightful heir to the throne. Jon tells her some absurd story about how his aunt is actually his mom and she banged Rhaegar Targaryen and they had a baby and Ned Stark hid the baby by pretending it was his own and actually that baby is Jon and he knows all this because his weirdo brother saw it in a vision.

If I were Dany I'd just be like:

"To be clear, you have no proof that any of this happened?"
"Bran told me--"
"You have no proof that any of this happened?"
"Just Bran's word, your grace."
"I'm sure you trust your brother very much, Jon. I care for you and respect your family. However, it's clear that several members of your family are now actively plotting against me and trying to usurp my throne."
"I don't want it, your grace."
"I know you don't. So please tell your brother and sister to stop plotting treason against me and we can all go home happy."

Then if Sansa and Bran keep running their mouths, execute them as traitors and put someone else in charge.

Ironically, the fact that Dany is not a psychotic murderer is why she chose instead to go with the half-measure of letting Jon walk around spilling his guts to every random person and allowing the Starks to continue spreading treasonous conspiracy theories.
 

Jombie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,392
i never said foreshadowing, she did things throughout the seasons that showed that she could be cruel when people werent on her side. It was part of her character

Last season. She's reiterated these points time and time again throughout the entire series. Were the seeds planted? Not nearly as much as some are claiming. We know she has a propensity towards violence and ruthlessness to her enemies, but there's nothing to indicate that she's willing to murder thousands of innocent people. I don't care how many stupid gifs people post of her screaming.

Even in the books, there was never a time where I sat back and thought 'man, she's going to be Aerys 2.0.'
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,497
read these

https://io9.gizmodo.com/that-sudden-game-of-thrones-turn-was-actually-a-long-ti-1834722527



https://www.salon.com/2019/05/13/ga...-her-kings-landing-turn-was-very-much-earned/

i think people glossed over things because the people she did it to were bad people, but it still shows a level of madness and cruelty.

Using mirri was the initial example isn't really a great starting point. In general, it's applying modern real world principles to these situations. Burning alive the lady who killed the leader of your group, killing the guy who tried betrayed you and tried to steal what you had. Ned would have had each of their heads just the same. As mentioned before, the show always gave me the impression that she was ultimately better overall and continually learning and becoming better in spite of any Targaryen inclinations. I'm not saying anyone is objectively wrong however they interpreted it as that's going to vary, but i felt it was poorly done and too drastic a turn.
 

bob smith

Member
Nov 1, 2017
145
Last season. She's reiterated these points time and time again throughout the entire series. Were the seeds planted? Not nearly as much as some are claiming. We know she has a propensity towards violence and ruthlessness to her enemies, but there's nothing to indicate that she's willing to murder thousands of innocent people. I don't care how many stupid gifs people post of her screaming.

Even in the books, there was never a time where I sat back and thought 'man, she's going to be Aerys 2.0.'

it went a lot farther back than last season. Also keep in mind, this was from Martin. He gave these guys the blueprint on what was going to happen. She was always meant to go mad, even in the books.
 

bob smith

Member
Nov 1, 2017
145
I wonder why when anyone else who killed people who deserved it, this wasn't a sign of madness or cruelty. HMMMM

its the way she did it. And did the Tarleys deserve to be burned like that? No. Was that not a bit over the top? and i dont think you read those links because not eveyone was completely deserving of the punishment they received.
 

Jombie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,392
it went a lot farther back than last season. Also keep in mind, this was from Martin. He gave these guys the blueprint on what was going to happen. She was always meant to go mad, even in the books.

The books aren't even close to being done, and in book time, her doing such a thing is a LONG way off. It's arbitrary to bring this up in the first place, as FORESHADOWING in the books doesn't translate to the show, nor do visions count as character development. It's clear that these plot points have been fast-tracked in order to get to the finish line. I don't know how many times it needs to be said, but it's not that it happened but the lack of re-tooling and its eventual ill- execution. Because of this, these scenes come off as needlessly cruel and the characters and story cynical and nihilistic.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
I think one of the most confusing plot motivation aspects of the season (and something that will be far more interesting to watch develop in the books) is Dany's face-value acceptance of Jon telling her what is essentially an InfoWars conspiracy theory that he is actually the rightful heir to the throne. Jon tells her some absurd story about how his aunt is actually his mom and she banged Rhaegar Targaryen and they had a baby and Ned Stark hid the baby by pretending it was his own and actually that baby is Jon and he knows all this because his weirdo brother saw it in a vision.

If I were Dany I'd just be like:

"To be clear, you have no proof that any of this happened?"
"Bran told me--"
"You have no proof that any of this happened?"
"Just Bran's word, your grace."
"I'm sure you trust your brother very much, Jon. I care for you and respect your family. However, it's clear that several members of your family are now actively plotting against me and trying to usurp my throne."
"I don't want it, your grace."
"I know you don't. So please tell your brother and sister to stop plotting treason against me and we can all go home happy."

Then if Sansa and Bran keep running their mouths, execute them as traitors and put someone else in charge.

Ironically, the fact that Dany is not a psychotic murderer is why she chose instead to go with the half-measure of letting Jon walk around spilling his guts to every random person and allowing the Starks to continue spreading treasonous conspiracy theories.

I find every characters face value acceptance of Bran puzzling and confusing.

This is a show that had a hunt the wight section to serve as proof for those that didn't believe in the threat beyond the wall. But then it asks us to believe that every character takes Bran at face value? A seer that can see all of history?

Seriously?
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,418
It makes much more sense to me for Bran to act as a "god" — in practicality, a resurgence of the Old Gods worship — than be a king. Westerosi society would only be so accepting of his supernatural powers, and are only so controllable. Putting Bran on a literal throne seems wildly dangerous and untenable if his goal is influence, especially since he can't produce heirs, and body snatching if discovered would see him deposed very quickly. (Plus, the whole thematic element of mind-raping Hodor being a reprehensible crime against humanity.)

Using mirri was the initial example isn't really a great starting point. In general, it's applying modern real world principles to these situations. Burning alive the lady who killed the leader of your group, killing the guy who tried betrayed you and tried to steal what you had. Ned would have had each of their heads just the same. As mentioned before, the show always gave me the impression that she was ultimately better overall and continually learning and becoming better in spite of any Targaryen inclinations. I'm not saying anyone is objectively wrong however they interpreted it as that's going to vary, but i felt it was poorly done and too drastic a turn.

Right? From Daenerys' perspective, MMD literally killed her husband and child. Her cause may have been for the Greater Good, but it was a suicide run from the beginning. Execution was the logical endstate, whether by Daenerys (whose sanctioning saved her life to begin with) or Drogo's khalasar.

I think one of the most confusing plot motivation aspects of the season (and something that will be far more interesting to watch develop in the books) is Dany's face-value acceptance of Jon telling her what is essentially an InfoWars conspiracy theory that he is actually the rightful heir to the throne. Jon tells her some absurd story about how his aunt is actually his mom and she banged Rhaegar Targaryen and they had a baby and Ned Stark hid the baby by pretending it was his own and actually that baby is Jon and he knows all this because his weirdo brother saw it in a vision.

If I were Dany I'd just be like:

"To be clear, you have no proof that any of this happened?"
"Bran told me--"
"You have no proof that any of this happened?"
"Just Bran's word, your grace."
"I'm sure you trust your brother very much, Jon. I care for you and respect your family. However, it's clear that several members of your family are now actively plotting against me and trying to usurp my throne."
"I don't want it, your grace."
"I know you don't. So please tell your brother and sister to stop plotting treason against me and we can all go home happy."

Then if Sansa and Bran keep running their mouths, execute them as traitors and put someone else in charge.

Ironically, the fact that Dany is not a psychotic murderer is why she chose instead to go with the half-measure of letting Jon walk around spilling his guts to every random person and allowing the Starks to continue spreading treasonous conspiracy theories.

This is going to be so much more compelling in the books, too, because Young Griff exists, and Daenerys is going to have to contend with that arrogant golden boy pretender before even meeting Jon Snow. She'll already have ample reason to side eye Jon's heritage after being the Slayer of Lies to the mummer's dragon.

Young Griff is so, so important to the plot. God, how did they omit him. (I desperately hope I'm wrong about Arianne perishing with him in King's Landing. Arianne is one of my favorite PoVs, and Doran doesn't deserve more grief.)
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
its the way she did it. And did the Tarleys deserve to be burned like that? No. Was that not a bit over the top? and i dont think you read those links because not eveyone was completely deserving of the punishment they received.
What way she did it? How is burning someone with dragon fire, something thats so powerful it blows up stone (which means it kills humans instantly) worse than hanging a child? Or chopping people up and feeding them to their family in pies? Like seriously how is that latter example better than burning people. Also yes the Tarlys deserved it. Who wasn't deserving of the punishment they received?
 

MisterR

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,463
Last season. She's reiterated these points time and time again throughout the entire series. Were the seeds planted? Not nearly as much as some are claiming. We know she has a propensity towards violence and ruthlessness to her enemies, but there's nothing to indicate that she's willing to murder thousands of innocent people. I don't care how many stupid gifs people post of her screaming.

Even in the books, there was never a time where I sat back and thought 'man, she's going to be Aerys 2.0.'
Yep, she's clearly got a ruthless streak against her enemies. There is absolutely nothing showing she'd be willing to burn 500,000 innocent people alive after her victory is assured. I'm sure the books will move toward that in a much more believable way.
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,016
I find every characters face value acceptance of Bran puzzling and confusing.

This is a show that had a hunt the wight section to serve as proof for those that didn't believe in the threat beyond the wall. But then it asks us to believe that every character takes Bran at face value? A seer that can see all of history?

Seriously?

Just assume he has an individual scene with every important character where he reveals to know something about them that he otherwise couldn't possibly know, I guess.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,418
What way she did it? How is burning someone with dragon fire, something thats so powerful it blows up stone (which means it kills humans instantly) worse than hanging a child? Or chopping people up and feeding them to their family in pies? Like seriously how is that latter example better than burning people. Also yes the Tarlys deserved it. Who wasn't deserving of the punishment they received?

I love how people are forgetting that the Tarlys betrayed and murdered their liegelord — something entire families have been eradicated for planning — who comprised a significant portion of Daenerys' allied forces.

They got off light by in-universe standards, since Daenerys was willing to grant them clemency (which they refused twice, both kneeling or taking the black). The show just wants the audience to think Daenerys is wrong, because Tyrion thinks that. But we know Tyrion is stupid, and scrutiny reveals she was downight charitable.

The whole scenario was stupid as hell, though. The Tarlys were Targaryen loyalists (to the Mad King) during Robert's Rebellion, so them thinking of Daenerys as a foreign usurper, and serving Cersei (an actual Mad Queen with no claim), is insane. To say nothing of the fact that people generally don't have to consent to taking the black, lol, that's kind of the point of it being a penal colony.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
I love how people are forgetting that the Tarlys betrayed and murdered their liegelord — something entire extended families have been eradicated for planning — who comprised a significant portion of Daenerys' allied forces.

They got off light by in-universe standards, since Daenerys was willing to grant them clemency (which they refused twice, both kneeling or taking the black). The show just wants the audience to think Daenerys is wrong, because Tyrion thinks that. But we know Tyrion is stupid, and scrutiny reveals she was downight charitable.

The whole scenario was stupid as hell, though. The Tarlys were Targaryen loyalists (to the Mad King) during Robert's Rebellion, so them thinking of Daenerys as a foreign usurper, and serving Cersei (an actual Mad Queen with no claim), is insane. To say nothing of the fact that people generally don't have to consent to taking the black, lol, that's kind of the point of it being a penal colony.
Its all double standards, and revisionist history. Its literally all this "foreshadowing" nonsense is. If we want to use past actions to suggest they were indicative of what she would become in the future its odd they keep using the worst examples which pale in quantitative comparison to all the counter examples of her being a good person.

And the tarlys being used as the catalyst to this whole problem was always so fucking hilarious. Did people also forget they were fighting with the Lannisters and against the North, which meant they were going to die anyway? And as you said, plus everything else they did that was MORE than deserving of the fire death they got (still better than being chopped into bit and fed as pie or hanging a child).
 

John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
you don't really have go beyond the first season to establish dany as a horrible person, no matter how awful the execution in the last season has been. burning mirri maz duur was enough to make her a villain.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,579
Thinking about it, you know how easily they could've made the mad queen believable:
1. soldiers surrender
2. Dany lands in front of them holds a brief speech
3. one injured guy uses his last strenght to shoot a bow at her
4. she takes an arrow to the shoulder and everyone goes crazy

Kathleen, call me any time. I can still save SW.
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
That was the most entertaining episode in 2 years in my opinion. I really liked it. And I know I'm supposed to be upset but I feel like I was upset when I read the spoilers, and by the time the episode started, I just enjoyed the ride.

When they said 'bells' 30 times in the first 20 minutes, I was like "It's true. All of it." Time to just have some fun.

I also think because I'm used to reading manga, which is often high-concept but unsubtle in its execution, I just have lower expectations for what 'entertainment' should be. Seeing that dragon attack was worth it all.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
you don't really have go beyond the first season to establish dany as a horrible person, no matter how awful the execution in the last season has been. burning mirri maz duur was enough to make her a villain.
Burning the person who poisoned your husband and killed your baby makes you a villain? Again let me ask, what does chopping up innocent people and putting them into pies, and feeding them to people make you?
 

John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
Burning the person who poisoned your husband and killed your baby makes you a villain? Again let me ask, what does chopping up innocent people and putting them into pies, and feeding them to people make you?
first of all, i have maintained from the beginning that arya is a little psycho, so you will not hear me defending her. but i would like to hear how mirri maz duur was not justified in poisoning the man whose bloodriders raped her three times?
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,418
first of all, i have maintained from the beginning that arya is a little psycho, so you will not hear me defending her. but i would like to hear how mirri maz duur was not justified in poisoning the man whose bloodriders raped her three times?

She was. From MMD's perspective, her cause was righteous. From Daenerys' perspective, she was the murderer of her husband and child.

What's hard to understand here?

From Olly's perspective, assassinating Jon was righteous. After all, he was allying with a historical enemy who slaughtered his village. From Jon's perspective as the victim and commanding officer, that action warranted execution.
 
Apr 19, 2018
6,792
I think one of the most confusing plot motivation aspects of the season (and something that will be far more interesting to watch develop in the books) is Dany's face-value acceptance of Jon telling her what is essentially an InfoWars conspiracy theory that he is actually the rightful heir to the throne. Jon tells her some absurd story about how his aunt is actually his mom and she banged Rhaegar Targaryen and they had a baby and Ned Stark hid the baby by pretending it was his own and actually that baby is Jon and he knows all this because his weirdo brother saw it in a vision.

I'm surprised they didn't bring Howland Reed into the picture -- especially after they went to the trouble of having the Tower of Joy scene.

Would have been a good excuse to bring Meera back too.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
first of all, i have maintained from the beginning that arya is a little psycho, so you will not hear me defending her. but i would like to hear how mirri maz duur was not justified in poisoning the man whose bloodriders raped her three times?
My point with arya is that the majority of the people here are glossing over what a little psycho she is while calling Dany the mad queen, and the show absolutely frames everything arya is doing as bad ass and something to root for while all of a sudden turning those moments from dany into foreshadowing indicative of her genocidal tendencies. Its incredibly problematic. Also she poisoned him after Dany had saved her.
 

Juryvicious

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,828
they did, you just werent paying attention.

Honestly, I've found your posts to have barely a surface level understanding of the show. And stating that anyone with complaints that it didn't go the way they wanted "just weren't paying attention" is a shitty reply.

I know you're late to this thread, but there have been countless intelligent posts breaking down just how terrible the writing has been this reason, especially with relation to Dany. Here is a video doing just that.

We kind of forgot about good writing - reload to the beginning.
 
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John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
She was. From MMD's perspective, her cause was righteous. From Daenerys' perspective, she was the murderer of her husband and child.

What's hard to understand here?

From Olly's perspective, assassinating Jon was righteous. After all, he was allying with a historical enemy who slaughtered his village. From Jon's perspective as the victim and commanding officer, that action warranted execution.

but from dany's perspective mirri was also a woman whose village had been ravaged and who had been raped multiple times, and she still chose to burn her alive as a blood sacrifice. what's so hard to understand here?

My point with arya is that the majority of the people here are glossing over what a little psycho she is while calling Dany the mad queen, and the show absolutely frames everything arya is doing as bad ass and something to root for while all of a sudden turning those moments from dany into foreshadowing indicative of her genocidal tendencies. Its incredibly problematic. Also she poisoned him after Dany had saved her.

i absolutely agree that the show is terrible and the way the show handled arya's (and sansa's) violence is bizarre and off-putting, but are you saying mirri was not justified to seek her own justice against drogo because dany saved her?
 

Hydrus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,298
So the Targaryen line is officially over. What a waste. I really don't give a shit about the starks since Sansa is the only one that will end up having kids
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
I liked how Bran felt like wasting most of his screen time talking up the ingenious wheelchair design, while they have been apparently using wheelchairs in Dorne for decades.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
So the Targaryen line is officially over. What a waste. I really don't give a shit about the starks since Sansa is the only one that will end up having kids

Arya can have kids although they'll probably be bastards since she doesn't seem like the type to settle down.

Bran can theoretically have kids on the show.

Targaryen lines continues through Gendry.

The official house of Targaryen is done though even if Jon pops out a few bastards with some wildling girl. He's not taking the Targaryen name.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
but from dany's perspective mirri was also a woman whose village had been ravaged and who had been raped multiple times, and she still chose to burn her alive as a blood sacrifice. what's so hard to understand here?



i absolutely agree that the show is terrible and the way the show handled arya's (and sansa's) violence is bizarre and off-putting, but are you saying mirri was not justified to seek her own justice against drogo because dany saved her?
No not exactly but I would say going a step further and killing her baby was not justified
 

John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
No but I'm not sure why she would help if she was still so mad that she killed drogo all the same.
speaking of which, was there ever any proof she poisoned drogo? i know in the books there was none, but i don't remember how it was on the show. as i recall, drogo ignored the instructions for his treatment and died of infection.

and her revenge might have been to turn drogo into a vegetable, so i don't think not wanting to kill the baby is the same as genuinely wanting to help.
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
"My first decree as Queen is that Jon Snow must be my boyfriend again and stop acting like all weird and stuff."
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
speaking of which, was there ever any proof she poisoned drogo? i know in the books there was none, but i don't remember how it was on the show. as i recall, drogo ignored the instructions for his treatment and died of infection.

and her revenge might have been to turn drogo into a vegetable, so i don't think not wanting to kill the baby is the same as genuinely wanting to help.
Maybe but even in the event that all this is true I'm also not sure using this as a reason that dany would commit mass genocide on innocent people
 
I think one of the most confusing plot motivation aspects of the season (and something that will be far more interesting to watch develop in the books) is Dany's face-value acceptance of Jon telling her what is essentially an InfoWars conspiracy theory that he is actually the rightful heir to the throne. Jon tells her some absurd story about how his aunt is actually his mom and she banged Rhaegar Targaryen and they had a baby and Ned Stark hid the baby by pretending it was his own and actually that baby is Jon and he knows all this because his weirdo brother saw it in a vision.

If I were Dany I'd just be like:

"To be clear, you have no proof that any of this happened?"
"Bran told me--"
"You have no proof that any of this happened?"
"Just Bran's word, your grace."
"I'm sure you trust your brother very much, Jon. I care for you and respect your family. However, it's clear that several members of your family are now actively plotting against me and trying to usurp my throne."
"I don't want it, your grace."
"I know you don't. So please tell your brother and sister to stop plotting treason against me and we can all go home happy."

Then if Sansa and Bran keep running their mouths, execute them as traitors and put someone else in charge.

Ironically, the fact that Dany is not a psychotic murderer is why she chose instead to go with the half-measure of letting Jon walk around spilling his guts to every random person and allowing the Starks to continue spreading treasonous conspiracy theories.

I laughed so much about that scene with Varys and Tyrion discussing Jon's heritage and Varys asking "How many know?" and Tyrion answers "Seven or eight" and Varys just looks at him and says sth. like "Then it's not secret anymore."

:D
 
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