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Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Wait...how does Gendry continue the Targaryens?

Because Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen, niece of Maester Aemon Targaryen, but also because the founder of House Baratheon was Orys Baratheon who was the bastard son of Lord Aerion Targaryen. Lord Aerion Targaryen was Aegon the Conqueror's father.

So House Baratheon is an unofficial House Targaryen cadet branch and Gendry is the only male-line Targaryen descended person apart from Jon on the show.
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,401
Germany
Because Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen, niece of Maester Aemon Targaryen, but also because the founder of House Baratheon was Orys Baratheon who was the bastard son of Lord Aerion Targaryen. Lord Aerion Targaryen was Aegon the Conqueror's father.

So House Baratheon is an unofficial House Targaryen cadet branch and Gendry is the only male-line Targaryen descended person apart from Jon on the show.
The founder of House Baratheon, Orys, is supposedly Aegon's bastard brother. Plus one of Roberts grandmother's is also a Targ.
Damn, that's some "my mother's brother's aunt's roommate" stuff lol
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
of course not, the show is awful. but i prefer mirri over the tarlys when it comes to relitigating dany's past monstrosities.

Tarly execution seems much worse when you stop looking at it from HER perspective. I thought about it, and she's basically a foreign invader killing another nation's people with an invading foreign army. She isn't entitled to capitulation. Tarlys indeed defied their liege-lord, but they have an oath to the crown that supersedes the oath to their lords. It was the lawful and correct act.

It's tyrannical and megalomaniacal (is that a word?) to execute them to take their lands. The aren't criminals for defending their nation against a foreign army.

It's not all that analogous, but it reminds me a bit of Germany before WW2 invading neighboring countries that had received German territories at the end of WW1. The justification is there, but it does not justify the means of abject cruelty and subjugation of autonomous nation states and their peoples. I would not justify Hitler's actions in Poland because East Prussia was lost to the Polish after WW1. And I certainly would not suggest that it would be justified to punish the Polish people who defended their nation against invaders as 'criminals' for defying their new ruler. EVEN IF it was wrong for the Allies to take German territory after WW1, it doesn't justify the cruelty that was brought to their nation by an entitled foreign invader and army.

Maybe that's a different way of looking at Dany's pompous execution of the Tarly men. But in the end, as Dany knows better than most, all that matters is power.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Damn, that's some "my mother's brother's aunt's roommate" stuff lol

The simplest way to see it is that Gendry is a descendant of Aegon the Conqueror and has a Targaryen Y-chromosome.

If Westeros had worked like modern society where being a bastard didn't matter then Robert would be Robert Targaryen, Stannis would be Stannis Targaryen, Renly would be Renly Targayen and Gendry would be Gendry Targaryen.
 

bob smith

Member
Nov 1, 2017
145
User Warned: Antagonistic Behavior
Honestly, I've found your posts to have barely a surface level understanding of the show. And stating that anyone with complaints that it didn't go the way they wanted "just weren't paying attention" is a shitty reply.

I know you're late to this thread, but there have been countless intelligent posts breaking down just how terrible the writing has been this reason, especially with relation to Dany. Here is a video doing just that.

We kind of forgot about good writing - reload to the beginning.

really? because i actually paid attention. Obviously you are too stupid to see all the obvious signs. that is not my problem. it is yours.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,418
Phoenix, AZ
I really don't think Jon takes the black. I think he tries but sees how its useless cuz there's no one there and somehow runs into Tormund who convinces him to live in exile north of the wall with him instead.

The Targaryen line will probably further when he finds Val.
 

Guppeth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,800
Sheffield, UK
So based on the spoilers...how likely is it Dany will be one-dimensional or poorly written as the Mad Queen

I have complete faith in the writers, they're the best in the business.

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Guppeth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,800
Sheffield, UK
I really don't think Jon takes the black. I think he tries but sees how its useless cuz there's no one there and somehow runs into Tormund who convinces him to live in exile north of the wall with him instead.

The Targaryen line will probably further when he finds Val.
Yeah I don't see why he'd "take the black", surely that career path is redundant now.
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,497
but from dany's perspective mirri was also a woman whose village had been ravaged and who had been raped multiple times, and she still chose to burn her alive as a blood sacrifice. what's so hard to understand here?



i absolutely agree that the show is terrible and the way the show handled arya's (and sansa's) violence is bizarre and off-putting, but are you saying mirri was not justified to seek her own justice against drogo because dany saved her?

She was in the right and I don't blame her. The consequences were also fitting giving the situation.
 

TheGamingNewsGuy

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 5, 2017
31,440
She committed mass genocide this past episode. The character she is now — which is completely different from her prior character — is pretty damn one-dimensional regardless of the final episode's contents.
If we take the rumoured leaks (which are very true). She starts capturing and executing anyone in Kings Landing which puts her pretty damn well into villain
 

TheGamingNewsGuy

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 5, 2017
31,440
Doesn't this actually only happen with Tyrion?

"Dany is executing everyone in King's Landing. Jon and Tyrion are upset." " she gives speeches about how she'll keep doing it to free slaves from their chains. He's also convinced by Tyrion that his family will never be safe because he presents a threat to her rule, so he's motivated by that as well"

Mind you this could be from Episode 5. Also it would surprise me if she was capturing the survivors considering she has her army.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,418
Phoenix, AZ
"Dany is executing everyone in King's Landing. Jon and Tyrion are upset." " she gives speeches about how she'll keep doing it to free slaves from their chains. He's also convinced by Tyrion that his family will never be safe because he presents a threat to her rule, so he's motivated by that as well"

Mind you this could be from Episode 5. Also it would surprise me if she was capturing the survivors considering she has her army.

I think the executing refers to EP5.
 

TheGamingNewsGuy

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 5, 2017
31,440
Do you think Tyrion is right in that Jon's family would never be safe as long as Dany was around - i would agree with him there since Dany would eventually try to nuke Winterfall
 

alexi52

Member
Oct 28, 2017
18,868
Game of Thrones S8 makes a lot more sense when you remember that David "write like every character has been told the ending of the story and their sole motivation is to make that ending a reality" Benioff is writing it
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
Game of Thrones S8 makes a lot more sense when you remember that David "write like every character has been told the ending of the story and their sole motivation is to make that ending a reality" Benioff is writing it


TBF, Benioff's original script for Wolverine: Origins was not the final one and supposedly was much more rated R and overall different.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
i never said foreshadowing, she did things throughout the seasons that showed that she could be cruel when people werent on her side. It was part of her character

And she just as easily could've stayed not-mad, and it would've likely been as believable, if not more. The fact that D&D just one season ago explicitly said she wasn't as mad as her father, is proof the writers didn't know how to take her character from point A to Z, and just skipped half the alphabet.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,194
Arya can have kids although they'll probably be bastards since she doesn't seem like the type to settle down.

Bran can theoretically have kids on the show.

Targaryen lines continues through Gendry.

The official house of Targaryen is done though even if Jon pops out a few bastards with some wildling girl. He's not taking the Targaryen name.
Those kids could leave the far north and come back down to the south claiming they are Targaryens. Could claim they weren't bastards but that their father married their wildling mother and gave them the name Targaryen.

It's not over officially until Jon and any of his offspring are dead.
 

TheGamingNewsGuy

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 5, 2017
31,440
I wonder if Arya will straight up leave Kings Landing or go find Daenerys - i am betting on the first one.Makes her ending more bittersweet if she doesn't see her family and just leaves but i doubt it.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,410
You think a considerable timeskip before Jon stabs Dany would lighten the pain a bit? Say, Dany rules for 10 or so years before Jon finds the courage to? That way, they can show us how Dany has go full-on crazy as well, something they're so fond of doing.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,423
but from dany's perspective mirri was also a woman whose village had been ravaged and who had been raped multiple times, and she still chose to burn her alive as a blood sacrifice. what's so hard to understand here?

can you actually show she intended to kill the baby? she told no one to enter the tent, but jorah carried dany in anyway.

Neither Daenerys nor MMD are wholly good or evil. They're people, both of whom do/did good and ill.

What MMD did to Daenerys' child was unjustifiable — and yes, we can safely conclude she consciously killed the baby, in both book and show.

In the show, when MMD is describing to Daenerys the horror that was her stillborn child, she does so tauntingly. She visibly drops her facade.

From the very beginning, MMD knows the price of the "life" Daenerys pleads her to restore to Drogo. It wasn't the horse; it was the child. And the "life" was a vegetative state. Just watch:



And read:

A Game of Thrones said:
Dany gestured at Ser Jorah and the others. "Leave us. I would speak with this maegi alone." Mormont and the Dothraki withdrew. "You knew," Dany said when they were gone. She ached, inside and out, but her fury gave her strength. "You knew what I was buying, and you knew the price, and yet you let me pay it."

"It was wrong of them to burn my temple," the heavy, flat-nosed woman said placidly. "That angered the Great Shepherd."

"This was no god's work," Dany said coldly. If I look back I am lost. "You cheated me. You murdered my child within me."

"The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."

"I spoke for you," she said, anguished. "I saved you."

"Saved me?" The Lhazareen woman spat. "Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god's house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved."

"Your life."

Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. "Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone."

A Game of Thrones said:
Dany turned to the godswife. "You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. "The price was paid," Dany said. "The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid." She rose from her cushions. "Where is Khal Drogo? Show him to me, godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are. Show me Khal Drogo. Show me what I bought with my son's life."

MMD made a decision rooted in spite and prophecy to kill Daenerys' child, under the supposition that it was the prophesied Stallion that Mounts the World. As we know, prophecy is unreliable and self-fulfilling in Martin's world. Through murdering the innocent Rhaego, she ensured the birth of the real Stallion: Daenerys and her dragons.

MMD wasn't an innocent when she was burned. She was a victim who lashed out and herself killed an innocent child. That's the tragedy of her character.

As Stannis says, a good act doesn't wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. That's true for both MMD and Daenerys. Yes, Daenerys cruelly executed her, but her child had been murdered — there was no madness there. That doesn't change the fact that Daenerys' characterization has consistently been that of a savior, a champion of the downtrodden, the Breaker of Chains.

Her mass genocide of King's Landing — rather than a targeted killing of Cersei — is unjustifiable and unseeded characterization. The latter could still have been somewhat morally ambiguous if it was done after the surrender, without descending into character assassination. Daenerys is by no means going to become a "Mad Queen" in the books.
 
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Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Those kids could leave the far north and come back down to the south claiming they are Targaryens. Could claim they weren't bastards but that their father married their wildling mother and gave them the name Targaryen.

It's not over officially until Jon and any of his offspring are dead.

Jon is taking the black to invalidate his claim, it seems like. But even if he isn't , it seems like he'll be keeping mum about the truth.

Any kids that he'll have will be raised like wildlings who may not even have half his charisma. So like if some wildling came out of nowhere to claim that he's actually the grandson of Rhaegar Targaryen, he'd have a tough time of people taking him seriously.

He'd have a better chance claiming the throne as a Stark (Bran Stark's nephew) and claiming precedence over Sansa's kids because he'd be a "male-line" Stark.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,418
Phoenix, AZ
You think a considerable timeskip before Jon stabs Dany would lighten the pain a bit? Say, Dany rules for 10 or so years before Jon finds the courage to? That way, they can show us how Dany has go full-on crazy as well, something they're so fond of doing.

There's literally no way this happens

The only time skip we will get is how long it will take Sansa and Jon to travel back up north
 

Corky

Alt account
Banned
Dec 5, 2018
2,479
Have you ever known Dany Targaryen to make an empty threat?
She's never threatened to burn innocents just those who hurts them. There was a way to show the brutality of her actions but they didn't they had her easily win THEN go mad. It was terrible on every level
 

Reinhard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,587
The show would have been much more interesting if they had just gone the ruthless ruler route instead of insane for Dany. Now she is a mustache twirling insane villain. How about she had ordered her troops to not accept surrender of the Lannister troops (without telling Tyrion), burned down the bell towers and then burned down the Red Keep but not kill tons of random innocents/burned the entire city for no apparent reason. That would still instill fear into the populace without needlessly wiping out the people she is supposed to rule. It would also be much more of a moral dilemma for Jon to kill a ruthless Queen instead of one that is bat shit insane for no apparent reason.

Also Jon is a total shit commander. He could have easily ordered his troops to stand down and forced the Unsullied to stop by putting a sword to Grey Worm's throat before the massacre began in earnest. The Dorthraki were almost entirely wiped out by the Night King army, so the troops had to mostly consist of Northerners (not wildlings who didn't go South) and the Unsullied. The Unsullied weren't raping the general populace and I can't imagine them killing civilians needlessly either as a highly disciplined group. That means the group doing the raping and pillaging had to have been Jon's troops, yet he did nothing to stop them. Don't commanders have horns and other means to give orders? Disobeying a direct order to retreat/stand down is punishable by execution after all.
 

Legacy

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,704
Good people, who have been cursed with knowledge and already seen the finale, did Cersei and Jaime really both die from the falling debris? That's all I want know
 
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