Outriders dev didn't get royalties yet, Square won't say how much it sold

Soviet · Aug 17, 2021

Interesting royalties case: Outriders dev (People Can Fly) didn't get royalties for Outriders, which means Square has not yet recuperated its production, marketing and distrubution budget. What's curious, PCF has no idea how much copies Square sold, which sound like an important piece of information in a deal like that.

"We don't have any data about Outriders sales. We're estimating it around 2-3m copies and we assumed it's a result that guarantees profits for the project after first quarter" - Sebastian Wojciechowski, PCF CEO. "The lack of payment probably means that Square Enix has a different opinion."

"Not reaching the break-even point could also mean that the costs were higher than we expected". (Translated from https://www.eurogamer.pl/articles/2...-nie-dostalo-pieniedzy-ze-sprzedazy-outriders).

Wojciechowski also says that they're still working on Outriders with more info coming "soon". Without getting roaylties. He's hoping money will start coming in in future quarters. All in all, it's probably just another day in video games industry. Still pretty weird I think.

Please nuke if old.

Joni · Aug 17, 2021

It is shitty to not share sales details.

texhnolyze · Aug 17, 2021

Of course 2-3 mil is not enough for AAA. They probably regret their no MTX approach.

poros1ty · Aug 17, 2021

It's a shame they released Outriders in such a broken state. I was playing the campaign coop with a friend and got frustrated playing with my trickster because of a major bug using the borrowed time skill which made reviving yourself or your teammate impossible.

We stopped playing and figured we'd hop back in when they'd patch it. Lo and behold, 4.5 months later and they still haven't fixed it.

Menome · Aug 17, 2021

texhnolyze said:
Of course 2-3 mil is not enough for AAA. They probably regret their no MTX approach.

Was it not the first of the Tomb Raider reboot trilogy where Square-Enix said that anything below 5 million sold was considered "a failure"?

ShinUltramanJ · Aug 17, 2021

So Square happily accepts Microsoft's Game Pass money for a big day one release, which goes directly into their pockets. Meanwhile they know that putting it on Game Pass will kneecap potential sales on Xbox and Xbox owning multi platform owners , which could result in not having to pay PCF royalties.

What a win win scenario for Square. This is where it would've helped to have a Union.

SuperOctopus · Aug 17, 2021

Are there actual numbers on how much publishers get from having their games on Gamepass? Is it a fixed amount or does it depend on the actual number of players who launch it?

Argentil · Aug 17, 2021

Wait a minute... This was day one game pass wasn't it? Doesn't gamepass completely undermine a sales-oriented deal like this? Seems like a conflict of interest.

Patitoloco · Aug 17, 2021

Menome said:
Was it not the first of the Tomb Raider reboot trilogy where Square-Enix said that anything below 5 million sold was considered "a failure"?

Square Enix considered every game in that period a failure. Hitman Absolution, Sleeping Dogs, TR 2013, etc. And they all sold pretty good.

Magic Mushroom · Aug 17, 2021

Was it on Game Pass PC as well or only on Xbox?

ClivePwned · Aug 17, 2021

They don't necessarily get paid straight away. It could be months before money gets to the devs. Even if they self published on steam it takes a bit before they get paid. still, its been just over three months and square knows whether it did well enough for them.

Rosenkrantz · Aug 17, 2021

Isn't the game had the most successful launch of SE title on Steam? Unless I'm mistaken it had over 100k CCU meaning it most likely sold more than a million units on PC alone.

Really shitty of Square to not share sales numbers with the dev team.

Potterson · Aug 17, 2021

So they take Microsoft's money and it's not for the devs?

Man...

Stacey · Aug 17, 2021

So the dev doesn't see game pass money?

Get Scarlet Johanssons lawyer on the phone.

cw_sasuke · Aug 17, 2021

Messed up seem like Square is trying Scarlett Johansson the devs like Disney did.

Making deals based on sales and then take Game Pass money that's gonna prevent people from buying said game.

Lack of transparency is bad. If you don't even know how much your own game has sold things arent adding up.

Orion117 · Aug 17, 2021

Magic Mushroom said:
Was it on Game Pass PC as well or only on Xbox?

Xbox only.

ShinUltramanJ said:
So Square happily accepts Microsoft's Game Pass money for a big day one release, which goes directly into their pockets. Meanwhile they know that putting it on Game Pass will kneecap potential sales on Xbox and Xbox owning multi platform owners , which could result in not having to pay PCF royalties.

What a win win scenario for Square. This is where it would've helped to have a Union.

Not sure how a union would help here. They are not a SE owned studio.

Potterson said:
So they take Microsoft's money and it's not for the devs?

Man...

Stacey said:
So the dev doesn't see game pass money?

Get Scarlet Johanssons lawyer on the phone.

Game pass deal is always with the publisher. And if there is a sales based incentive without any safeguards for deal like this, the devs can get screwed. Although i dont think there is a sales based deal here. From the language it seems its a more based on breakeven on the project, which should include sales and game pass money.

Jarod McChicken · Aug 17, 2021

As a reminder, Outriders had 3,5 million players one month after release and Square Enix stated it was going to be "a major franchise" so they were pretty happy with the launch.

Making deals based on sales and then take Game Pass money that's gonna prevent people from buying said game.

Yuuup. In a Game Pass world, let's hope devs will be able to make deals based on number of players or downloads, not just sales.

PandemicOdin · Aug 17, 2021

ShinUltramanJ said:
So Square happily accepts Microsoft's Game Pass money for a big day one release, which goes directly into their pockets. Meanwhile they know that putting it on Game Pass will kneecap potential sales on Xbox and Xbox owning multi platform owners , which could result in not having to pay PCF royalties.

What a win win scenario for Square. This is where it would've helped to have a Union.

Very curious to say the least. I kind of thought that the GP money was going to offset a lot of the development cost and then take in profits on the PS side but maybe the Xbox money wasn't that much? This is a pretty multifaceted question specifically on a game that I think probably would've tanked w/out Gamepass. It came in on a soft month, it got a ton of good will from being on GP, it charted pretty well on the PS side and it did seem like it was going to tank w/out the extra publicity. I guess a telling sign will be if 2-3 years from now Square or other companies continue to put games on GP day 1.

This reeks of Disney and Black Widow. Initially everything looks good but the trickle down effect of taking money upfront actually ended up being to its detriment than a positive

IIFloodyII · Aug 17, 2021

Sounds fucked, Square probably pocketed at least many millions from the Game Pass deal and seemed happy with it's performance, but are keeping PCF in the dark to avoid paying what they are potentially owed?

mpak · Aug 17, 2021

I am really not sure whose great idea was to release online game with some end content without MTX and GaaS....Sounds like Square!

Seems like these days Square is doing more squarely than usual.

ShinUltramanJ · Aug 17, 2021

Orion117 said:
Not sure how a union would help here. They are not a SE owned studio.

Game Pass would've been factored into their agreement on royalties. If anything the sales threshold should've been lowered a good bit. Especially when Square kneecapped potential sales to collect that big day one release Game Pass check .
Developers should have more favorable deals when publishers are throwing their game up on Game Pass, to line their pockets.

Argentil · Aug 17, 2021

Hopefully this is just a misunderstanding and the terms of their contract did take gamepass into consideration. I could see them being sheepish about sales figures if the sales looked low on paper due to gamepass, so they may be holding onto sales figures for this reason. It's a curious situation all in all. It really highlights the lop-sided power dynamic a developer faces when dealing with their publisher. This kind of information should be readily available to developers imo.

Demeisen · Aug 17, 2021

Po pierwszym kwartale sprzedaży gry „Outriders” PCF Group S.A. nie otrzymała tantiem od jej wydawcy, Square Enix

peoplecanfly.com

They're looking to self-publish their own IPs in the future (along with their existing projects with T-2 and S-E). Can't say I blame them. (Outriders belongs to S-E now, I think.)

ShinUltramanJ · Aug 17, 2021

Demeisen said:
Po pierwszym kwartale sprzedaży gry „Outriders” PCF Group S.A. nie otrzymała tantiem od jej wydawcy, Square Enix

Po pierwszym kwartale sprzedaży gry „Outriders” PCF Group S.A. nie otrzymała tantiem od jej wydawcy, Square Enix

peoplecanfly.com

They're looking to self-publish their own IPs in the future (along with their existing projects with T-2 and S-E). Can't say I blame them. (Outriders belongs to S-E now, I think.)

Good for them. They're a talented studio.

Raigor · Aug 17, 2021

texhnolyze said:
Of course 2-3 mil is not enough for AAA. They probably regret their no MTX approach.

2-3 millions are absolutely enough for Outirders to start making profits.

It's not like they spent $150 million like they did for Marvel's Avengers. This is Square Enix fuckery.

sredgrin · Aug 17, 2021

Surely at this point contracts for devs must be by revenue rather than copies sold (especially in the wake of mtx, deep discounts, etc) and thus deals like Game Pass, Epic stuff, timed console deals should fulfill part of that part of the contact.

Yuntu · Aug 17, 2021

Weird. SE specifically said Outriders did well and they wannna turn it into an franchise.

Knowing Square they wouldnt say this if it didnt make *any* profits.

Super Craig · Aug 17, 2021

SuperOctopus said:
Are there actual numbers on how much publishers get from having their games on Gamepass? Is it a fixed amount or does it depend on the actual number of players who launch it?

I'd imagine that there are several types of contract available.

texhnolyze · Aug 17, 2021

They're probably going to be bought by the Embracer Group before developing and publishing their own game.

Raigor said:
2-3 millions are absolutely enough for Outirders to start making profits.

It's not like they spent $150 million like they did for Marvel's Avengers. This is Square Enix fuckery.

It's just sad that devs have no power over something like this, even as simple as enquiring a sales number. This is probably part of the agreement when they signed the publishing contracts, but that means that they're so powerless to accept such conditions.

Deleted member 4976 · Aug 17, 2021

Orion117 said:
Xbox only.

Not sure how a union would help here. They are not a SE owned studio.

Game pass deal is always with the publisher. And if there is a sales based incentive without any safeguards for deal like this, the devs can get screwed. Although i dont think there is a sales based deal here. From the language it seems its a more based on breakeven on the project, which should include sales and game pass money.

Yep, and the MLB x MS deal is illustrative here too of high level it can be.

TerremotoDePorta · Aug 17, 2021

Stupid question: would it be possible for them to ask directly to Microsoft/Sony/Valve how many copies their game has sold on each platform?

ghostcrew · Aug 17, 2021

Stacey said:
So the dev doesn't see game pass money?

Where does it say that? The dev doesn't mention Game Pass at all. Just says that the game hasn't broken even yet. They don't say it's solely based on sales.

Raigor · Aug 17, 2021

Orion117 said:
Game pass deal is always with the publisher.

Pretty much every type of deals are always with the publishers; marketing budget, exclusive content and such.

Indipendent developers signing with major publishers are always going to lose something either way, pubs love to hide data and revenue when they can and there isn't a lot they can do.

jroc74 · Aug 17, 2021

Well this is certainly interesting...

ShinUltramanJ said:
So Square happily accepts Microsoft's Game Pass money for a big day one release, which goes directly into their pockets. Meanwhile they know that putting it on Game Pass will kneecap potential sales on Xbox and Xbox owning multi platform owners , which could result in not having to pay PCF royalties.

What a win win scenario for Square. This is where it would've helped to have a Union.

Let's just say I have no comment about the Game Pass angle....

I hope you are prepared for the incoming responses....

MartyNick · Aug 17, 2021

Of course, there is a conflict of interest ! This can be viewed as the Black Widow/ScarJo issue --> sales means digital or physical sales but not downloaded through GP or EA Play or PS+, I guess.
The GamePass is a huge shift for the industry and for now it is such a good deal for the players and it is surely good for the Indies but it will reshape the way AAA are created, produced and distributed.
This is the first case of many if the contracts do not evolve quickly but I fear it will also reshape the AAA as we know them, they will become GAAS with micro transactions (or gAAAs)

SimplyComplex · Aug 17, 2021

Tbh I expected their sales estimation to be a tad higher. 2-3 million isn't bad by any means but Outriders had a decent amount of hype attached to it.

Bardeh · Aug 17, 2021

TerremotoDePorta said:
Stupid question: would it be possible for them to ask directly to Microsoft/Sony/Valve how many copies their game has sold on each platform?

No, SE is the publisher and that information is for them only.

Also, does the 2-3 million figure include Game Pass installs, or is that only sales? It's hard to see how the game hasn't been profitable if it's sold 2-3 million PLUS whatever SE got from Microsoft for the game pass deal. I wonder if the contract PCF has somehow excludes that game pass money. If so, that's some shady shit from Square Enix.

julia crawford · Aug 17, 2021

Damn. It's extremely unprofessional for Square not to divulge those numbers to the same people whose revenue depends exactly on them.

Uzupedro · Aug 17, 2021

More quotes from the site(Google Translated):

" Perhaps it was due to some elements of Square Enix's sales policy, the details of which we do not know, such as partnerships concluded by the Publisher with distribution platforms or entities offering Outriders as an addition to their products. Failure to achieve the level of profitability may also mean that the costs incurred by the Publisher are higher than expected. But I don't want to speculate; we will analyze the situation further. It is worth noting, however, that such explanations take time and our influence on the Publisher's position is limited. His role is leading here. "Admits Wojciechowski.

"The sales tail of the Outriders game is ahead of us. We mentioned in the brochure that we are working on further development support for this game, and I hope to be able to share some details soon. We are also counting on further promotional activities on the part of the Publisher. Despite this disappointing information, we believe that the first royalties from the sale of Outriders will be received by the Company this year. We will try to maintain the most detailed and open communication with investors on this matter, because I know that this is what they expect from us. At the same time, please remember that our information policy is closely related to the business model based on cooperation with a global Publisher. "- reminds Wojciechowski.

People Can Fly is currently working on new AAA games - the Dagger project for Take-Two Interactive and the Gemini project, a new game for Square Enix.
Also in May 2021, the People Can Fly Group began preliminary work on new titles, including development work on a new game with the intention of producing it in a self-publishing model.

" Working with the Publisher has many advantages, but also its disadvantages - one of them is the low impact of PCF on sales activities and the incompleteness or - as in this case - the lack of data obtained from the Publisher in this regard. This is one of the reasons why, apart from working with Publishers, we have decided to develop projects whose IP will remain the property of the Company and which will be published by the Company. From the point of view of calculating the profitability of game production in the production segment at the request of the Publishers, we always take into account only the current revenues obtained from milestones delivered to Publishers. "- summarizes Wojciechowski.

Stacey · Aug 17, 2021

ghostcrew said:
Where does it say that? The dev doesn't mention Game Pass at all. Just says that the game hasn't broken even yet. They don't say it's solely based on sales.

Im just responding to the comments in this thread.

Raigor · Aug 17, 2021

texhnolyze said:
It's just sad that devs have no power over something like this, even as simple as enquiring a sales number. This is probably part of the agreement when they signed the publishing contracts, but that means that they're so powerless to accept such conditions.

That's simply because the publishers take the big risk by funding an AAA project for x millions and x years and they get to dictate the terms and take all the revenue, this is the deal with the vast vast majority of parterships.

The royalities are always a tiny % of the overall revenue and the publishers take all the money.

This is why IP ownership is a big deal for indipendent studios; when you own a big propriety you can negotiate a better deal with a major publisher.

GMM · Aug 17, 2021

The game pass deal would likely count as revenue, unless whatever royalty contract they have omits specific types of income sources no related to direct sales.

Not giving them key metrics should however be illegal as the developer have no insight in to SE telling the truth and it makes the contract potentially worthless, they might as well be pulling some Hollywood accounting and claim it was never profitable.

I'm all for Square Enix getting claim of the initial sales to recoup their investment, but it's no excuse to keep partners in the dark and potentially abusing their trust.

gdt · Aug 17, 2021

ShinUltramanJ said:
So Square happily accepts Microsoft's Game Pass money for a big day one release, which goes directly into their pockets. Meanwhile they know that putting it on Game Pass will kneecap potential sales on Xbox and Xbox owning multi platform owners , which could result in not having to pay PCF royalties.

What a win win scenario for Square. This is where it would've helped to have a Union.

I'm not sure a union works like that

Edit: are game devs unionized in Poland?

Thadeus · Aug 17, 2021

People Can Fly suggests Outriders hasn't made a profit

People Can Fly has revealed that its new multiplayer shooter Outriders failed to break even in its opening quarter.In b…

www.gamesindustry.biz

In both a note to investors and a financial filing, the Polish developer reports that it has yet to receive a royalty payment from the game's publisher Square Enix. Royalties were only to be paid after all costs covered by the publisher had been recouped.

According to the publishing agreement, any royalties generated by Outriders' profits were to be paid to People Can Fly within 45 days of the end of the calendar quarter in which it was released.

Outriders launched on April 1, meaning that payment should have been made by yesterday (Monday, August 16) at the latest. But People Can Fly reports no such payment has been transferred into its accounts.

"This probably means that, according to Square Enix, the game Outriders did not break even after the first quarter of sales," the studio wrote in a note to investors, as translated by Google.

Bit more clarity into the royalty situation

Soviet · Aug 17, 2021

gdt said:
Edit: are game devs unionized in Poland?

Of course not. How would union help in a contract dispute with a firm in Japan?

Thadeus said:
Bit more clarity into the royalty situation

I thought it was clear in the OP :(

gdt · Aug 17, 2021

Soviet said:
Of course not. How would union help in a contract dispute with a firm in Japan?

That's my point

eonden · Aug 17, 2021

So basically the Gamepass money wasnt counted as a way for Square to recuperate the money from development and marketing? Because I doubt the game is still a loss for Square after MS paid for the console Gamepass.
If that is the case, SE is an asshole.

Henrar · Aug 17, 2021

ShinUltramanJ said:
This is where it would've helped to have a Union.

It's a B2B contract issue, unionization wouldn't help here.

Ogni-XR21 · Aug 17, 2021

This could also be on Sony, in one of the indie-on-PS-sucks threads there was some info posted that it can take several months until publishers/developers get feedback from Sony on how many games were sold.

jroc74 · Aug 17, 2021

SimplyComplex said:
Tbh I expected their sales estimation to be a tad higher. 2-3 million isn't bad by any means but Outriders had a decent amount of hype attached to it.

Yeah it did have some hype, and some odd threads and posts when it launched.

I think its safe to say some of those threads and posts have aged like 2 year old milk.

I'm really curious about the platform split now.

Ogni-XR21 said:
This could also be on Sony, in one of the indie-on-PS-sucks threads there was some info posted that it can take several months until publishers/developers get feedback from Sony on how many games were sold.

Well, this is one reason why I'm really curious about the platform split now,,,,

Outriders dev didn't get royalties yet, Square won't say how much it sold

Shinra Employee

"This guy are sick"

Prophet of Regret - A King's Landing

Alt Account

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

Prophet of Regret Corrupted by Vengeance

Shinra Employee

The Shrouded Ghost

Took the red AND the blue pills