Overwatch League - Out of 131 players, not one woman

sabrina · Jan 11, 2018

https://compete.kotaku.com/no-overwatch-league-team-signed-the-games-most-notable-1821968992

by the way, if your contribution to this thread is "well duh, more men play games than women!" or "they only hire the best players!!!" maybe stop to consider that things like this are WHY fewer women try playing competitive games in the first place. When the league does nothing to encourage diversity, it's tacitly endorsing the status quo of primarily white and asian men are the only people good enough to play the game.

Lemstar · Jan 11, 2018

5taquitos · Jan 11, 2018

Sad but also sadly not surprising.

If I was a woman I wouldn't touch the eSports scene with a ten-foot pole.

OHRye · Jan 11, 2018

First post gets its right.

Sei · Jan 11, 2018

There also no americans in some american teams...

Not saying that as an excuse, but that's esports. It's driven by blind money.

Dance Inferno · Jan 11, 2018

Lemstar said:

Fine, ignore Geguri. Are you telling me that there really isn't a single other woman good enough to be one of the 131 players in the league?

This is really a flimsy argument.

Deleted member 24766 · Jan 11, 2018

Lemstar said:

I find this far more hilarious than I probably should. Thank you for making me laugh at another one of Kotaku's hilarious outrage articles.

Deleted member 9317 · Jan 11, 2018

Y'all should know by now: These "sports" are tough on women, they'll go through concussions and they don't have the speed or ability like men do, and they can't throw their curveball as fast, or can't skate as fast, or can't run as fast, or cant swing as fast, or kick as fast. Its simple science that we need to keep them segregated like it's the Middle East because the opponents will play dirty and try to harass them by inappropriately grabbing them or pulling their hair or use excessive force on them so they get injured and sit on the sidelines, and we don't need no transgenders to try to make their way as well since it's unfair to others.

Good to know here's another "e-sport" that I will proudly avoid.

ZeroGravity · Jan 11, 2018

Dance Inferno said:
Fine, ignore Geguri. Are you telling me that there really isn't a single other woman good enough to be one of the 131 players in the league?

This is really a flimsy argument.

Geguri is the best female player in the world. So, at the moment, yes.

jviggy43 · Jan 11, 2018

I almost posted this last night but my phone was dying. Pretty weak. Language barriers seems like a BS argument given the diversity in the league, housing shouldn't be that much of an issue for players who are ok being coeds, and the argument used that teams are "thinking of the girl players by protecting them from the media asking questions about publicity stunts" are actually just looking out for themselves more than the female players. For a game with so many diverse characters you would think there would be a much harder push to get more inclusivity in the league right out of the gate. The day that an all female OW team pops up Blizzard gets all my money for their team skins.

mas8705 · Jan 11, 2018

Part of me does wonder about this. It isn't to say that "ESPORTS IS MAN TERRITORY!" but rather the idea that when we look at eSports as a whole, there isn't that much representation of female participants as we would like there to be. In the case of OWL, I honestly can't say what in these circumstances that we should look at this from since there are plenty of sides to this story than what is being presented.

As what Lemstar pointed out from the tweet, "Geguri told me not getting signed to a OWL team had nothing to do with her being a woman. Further, she is uncomfortable with the controversy itself. Geguri declined to speak further. Last year after dealing with cheat accusations she tweeted "I don't want people to use my story as a way to forward their own ideologies". Using Geguri for the lack of women in OWL esports ignores her request & does a disservice to the issue." Kudos to the first post for sharing that.

I can respect Geguri's position in this and how she doesn't want what happened previously to be used. If something can happen down the road that Geguri does get into OWL, then all the more power to her and I wish her the best of luck on future endeavors. Until that time though... I admit I had to look up Felicia Day. She does seem reasonable in her thoughts on this. When asked about, "What should we do now?" she responded "It's an interesting question. There are a lot of approaches, but talking about it is key. Someone in CHARGE caring about talking about it who can actually make a difference." Never hurts to discuss these things and I don't feel like there is any kind of "movement" or anything when I read her tweets.

Dance Inferno said:
Fine, ignore Geguri. Are you telling me that there really isn't a single other woman good enough to be one of the 131 players in the league?

This is really a flimsy argument.

It isn't that there isn't a woman that is good enough, but when we take into account the amount of players that is usually seen in a tournament setting for eSports, more times than naught, it is usually all guys. Of course, is that to say women aren't good at video games like guys? Of course not. We've seen plenty of times of female representation in eSports. The problem is that they are few and far between. Not the best argument, but that is what we've seen as of late.

VAPORxDYNE · Jan 11, 2018

God Dayum, first post just slapped this thread out of the air.

Dance Inferno said:
Fine, ignore Geguri. Are you telling me that there really isn't a single other woman good enough to be one of the 131 players in the league?

This is really a flimsy argument.

Are you saying that there is a known woman who is good enough (better or equal to in every aspect an e-sports org looks for in a player etc.) and willing to be one of the players? If you know of one you could probably name her and then people could talk about it. Bringing up those women in conversations would probably help them get noticed.

Dance Inferno · Jan 11, 2018

ZeroGravity said:
Geguri is the best female player in the world. So, at the moment, yes.

So the second best female player in the world isn't better than the 131st best male player in the world?

Come on folks. These arguments are incredibly specious and disingenuous.

VAPORxDYNE said:
Are you saying that there is a known woman who is good enough (better or equal to in every aspect an e-sports org looks for in a player etc.) and willing to be one of the players? If you know of one you could probably name her and then people could talk about it. Bringing up those women in conversations would probably help them get noticed.

I don't follow eSports dude, I don't have a list of female players for you. I couldn't even name any male players tbh other than Seagull.

GamingEnthusiast · Jan 11, 2018

Did you all just realize how male-dominated E-Sports really is? With that being said, Street Fighter has a transgender player that consistently scores in the top 32 and Smash Melee with that female player who is both cute, amazing at the game, and is in top 32 usually .

bluexy · Jan 11, 2018

Geguri is relevant to the conversation. Kotaku's piece isn't "faulty," it's correctly noting that Geguri not being a part of the league is a standard by which we can look at the Overwatch League and how women fit into the picture. It gives us a point of reflection from which we can compare the Overwatch League to other esports, and also the Overwatch League now compared to its past and future. Asking "Should Geguri be in the Overwatch League?" is not the same as saying "Geguri should be in the Overwatch League."

That's where Slasher's accusation crosses from criticism of the article to outright hypocrisy. To ask for a quote from Geguri is one thing, but to manufacture an argument for her based on her past and present comments is something else entirely. And doing so in the same breath as asserting its a "disservice" to use her words in such a manner -- mind-boggling.

Firestorm · Jan 11, 2018

The article is poor because the writer didn't make any attempt to reach out to Geguri to learn about what she wanted. However, the answers from the teams reveals a lot. The majority did not say "She did not want to play in the OWL." Some straight up say that due to co-ed housing, they see problems with bringing on female players. Others talk about not knowing if they'd mesh well which are clearly apprehensions about co-ed teams (otherwise, aside from teams who purchased entire existing rosters, it'd apply to any of the players they did hire too). Not to mention the acknowledgement that women face an uphill battle in getting a roster spot.

The esports industry is structured in a way that caters primarily to male players. If OWL wants to be taken seriously, the industry needs to grow up. For a start, get rid of team houses. What a stupid concept. If you can pay $20 million for a spot in the league you can pay your players a salary that lets them rent or own their own living space.

Risev · Jan 11, 2018

As someone who's watched almost every single pro Overwatch game in NA, EU, and Korea these past 2 years, I can say with absolute confidence that Geguri is the best female player in the world in Overwatch.

I can also say with absolute confidence that there are many better male players compared to Geguri that are also left out of OW because there simply isn't enough spots at the moment. There are currently less than a handful Korean rosters in OWL, and every single one of those teams consist of better tank players compared to Geguri.

That is the long and short of it.

jviggy43 · Jan 11, 2018

Firestorm said:
The article is poor because the writer didn't make any attempt to reach out to Geguri to learn about what she wanted. However, the answers from the teams reveals a lot. The majority did not say "She did not want to play in the OWL." Some straight up say that due to co-ed housing, they see problems with bringing on female players. Others talk about not knowing if they'd mesh well which are clearly apprehensions about co-ed teams (otherwise, aside from teams who purchased entire existing rosters, it'd apply to any of the players they did hire too). Not to mention the acknowledgement that women face an uphill battle in getting a roster spot.

The esports industry is structured in a way that caters primarily to male players. If OWL wants to be taken seriously, the industry needs to grow up. For a start, get rid of team houses. What a stupid concept. If you can pay $20 million for a spot in the league you can pay your players a salary that lets them rent or own their own living space.

I believe the teams signed a contract to pay for housing for their players so ultimately its teams' being cheap and not wanting to accommodate.

ZeroGravity · Jan 11, 2018

Dance Inferno said:
So the second best female player in the world isn't better than the 131st best male player in the world?

Come on folks. These arguments are incredibly specious and disingenuous.

There isn't some grand conspiracy to exclude her or any other woman from the Overwatch League. There are A LOT of talented players who weren't able to get an initial spot in the league. And, having actually watched her play while she was in the Korean APEX league, she really didn't impress enough to where she would be seriously considered for a spot.

That's it. That's all this really comes down to. Someday there will be a woman in the OWL. And hell, I hope that's Geguri if that's what she wants and keeps improving toward that. But the fact there isn't one now is not a story, and shame on Kotaku or anyone else using this woman, who does not want this to be about her, making it about her.

VallenValiant · Jan 11, 2018

The simple fact is that there are less women who want to try e-sports as a career. I am sure there are many women who could be good enough, but they are likely doing something else to make their living. It's not like e-sports is some privileged high-paid job that women are blocked from.
In Starcraft 1 e-Sports, Korea built a special league just for women. The very best of them, ToSsGirL, is the undisputed champion. She participated in matches with male players but doesn't go very far. There is nothing wrong with her skills, she is truly the best out of all the women who actually signed up. But the talent pool just is smaller due to lack of interest.

The simple fact is there are less female players. And you can't force someone to play what they don't want to play.

Pirate Bae · Jan 11, 2018

It's not just Overwatch. The vast majority of esports circuits feature no women, and the ones that do are ostracized and bullied out of playing. People think that these communities are all inclusive, but they're not. They are, and always have been, a boys club.

I mean, shit. I'm no where near pro play level and I used to get called a dumb bitch on the regular for simply being a girl in the game. I can't imagine what it's like on an international stage.

LordofPwn · Jan 11, 2018

keep in mind too that there were established Overwatch e-sports teams that weren't even able to secure franchising rights, like Rogue. And the only other female eSport Overwatch player i can think of played for team France during the OWC iirc which was basically Rogue so...
And Rocket League is also a bit problematic. i dont think there was a single female player in RLCS or RLRS last season though Karmah did get brought on to the analysts desk at times and she's like the best female RL player I know.

Alucrid · Jan 11, 2018

i wouldn't even necessarily say the issue is that geguri isn't in the overwatch league. it's that despite watching hours of overwatch in NA, EU, Korea, China, etc. i can't think of another woman who has played on a pro team.

HarryDemeanor · Jan 11, 2018

Risev said:
I can also say with absolute confidence that there are many better male players compared to Geguri that are also left out of OW because there simply isn't enough spots at the moment.

Which doesn't make sense to me considering some of these teams have bigger rosters than each other. Certainly there's enough room on say the LA Gladiators team compared to Seoul Dynasty. Don't know what Blizzard were thinking when setting guidelines for team rosters.

Silky · Jan 11, 2018

GamingEnthusiast said:
Did you all just realize how male-dominated E-Sports really is? With that being said, Street Fighter has a transgender player that consistently scores in the top 32 and Smash Melee with that female player who is both cute, amazing at the game, and is in top 32 usually .

This is a weird ass comment.

--

I think competitive Overwatch is like NyQuill to me so I'm not really versed in the playerbase for it.

nomis · Jan 11, 2018

I don't see how Overwatch is inviting a higher level of scrutiny simply by having the audacity to be outwardly inclusive in the design and ethos of the game. How many female CS:GO players are there? DOTA? It's a systemic problem in the scene, not an Overwatch problem.

nomis · Jan 11, 2018

GamingEnthusiast said:
Did you all just realize how male-dominated E-Sports really is? With that being said, Street Fighter has a transgender player that consistently scores in the top 32 and Smash Melee with that female player who is both cute, amazing at the game, and is in top 32 usually .

100% extremely relevant

Dance Inferno · Jan 11, 2018

ZeroGravity said:
There isn't some grand conspiracy to exclude her or any other woman from the Overwatch League. There are A LOT of talented players who weren't able to get an initial spot in the league. And, having actually watched her play while she was in the Korean APEX league, she really didn't impress enough to where she would be seriously considered for a spot.

That's it. That's all this really comes down to. Someday there will be a woman in the OWL. And hell, I hope that's Geguri if that's what she wants and keeps improving toward that. But the fact there isn't one now is not a story, and shame on Kotaku or anyone else using this woman, who does not want this to be about her, making it about her.

That's not "all there is to the story." You act as if women don't get massive amounts of harassment online and in person, as if there aren't conscious and unconscious biases against involving women in esports. There are a ton of systemic reasons why women don't participate in esports and aren't chosen by teams. The fact that there isn't a single woman in the OWL isn't a story of, "Oh, well I guess we haven't found the one woman who can play video games!" It's a story of the esports and gaming community being incredibly exclusive and toxic to women, and that's something that needs to be changed.

plagiarize · Jan 11, 2018

Firestorm said:
The article is poor because the writer didn't make any attempt to reach out to Geguri to learn about what she wanted. However, the answers from the teams reveals a lot. The majority did not say "She did not want to play in the OWL." Some straight up say that due to co-ed housing, they see problems with bringing on female players. Others talk about not knowing if they'd mesh well which are clearly apprehensions about co-ed teams (otherwise, aside from teams who purchased entire existing rosters, it'd apply to any of the players they did hire too). Not to mention the acknowledgement that women face an uphill battle in getting a roster spot.

The esports industry is structured in a way that caters primarily to male players. If OWL wants to be taken seriously, the industry needs to grow up. For a start, get rid of team houses. What a stupid concept. If you can pay $20 million for a spot in the league you can pay your players a salary that lets them rent or own their own living space.

Why do they need to check what she wants? She was repeatedly mentioned as Kotaku report.

The reporting is on the tone of those conversations about her absence... and I don't see why Kotaku have to check with Geguri before reporting on that. They don't claim to present *her* feelings on the matter at all.

Rackham · Jan 11, 2018

Silky said:
This is a weird ass comment.

--

I think competitive Overwatch is like NyQuill to me so I'm not really versed in the playerbase for it.

It's a self righteous, snarky comment talking about diverse players and brings up the fact that a player is cute like it has any bearing on their skill or qualification. lol. very weird.

Wanted to bring up the coach in the article who talks about males and females being unable to communicate properly in a game cause they think differently..like wtf does that even mean?
"GET ON POINT"
"You see, because you have a vagina, I have no clue what the fuck that means. We're incompatible as teammates"

Narasumas · Jan 11, 2018

I know nothing of Overwatch or this league...but it should be, the best player gets the spot. If that happens to mean there were no women during that period, then that's the case. That's with an objective view of course. Is there some backstory indicating otherwise?

Edit: okay there's an ESPN article, will read.

jviggy43 · Jan 11, 2018

Women were also excluded from the field of arts for a number of areas of discrimination which led to the pretty popular notion regarding "why aren't there any good women artists throughout art history?", as if to imply that its a talent issue and not a discrimination one. Geguri, the best female OW player, was literally accused of cheating just for how good she was (and likely being a female). How many other OW players have to deal with headline inducing accusations about cheating after pretty clearly establishing themselves as legitimate? A lack of female players or notoriety does not mean they don't exist, just that there are more barriers for them and for some it may even turn them off from remaining in the competitive scene in the first place, which contributes to the problem.

ParanoidRED · Jan 11, 2018

Lemstar said:

Welp, that was fast lol

benzopil · Jan 11, 2018

So this article is pointless if Geguri didn't want to play in League? What's to discuss really? If you watch pros' ranked matches, you'll never hear a woman's voice. And if you do, they always play Mercy, and these players will be useless in the League no matter the gender. I watched enough streams by xQc, Seagull, Surefour etc. to notice that. Only 1 time I heard a woman on Soldier, her nickname was something like IIIIIIII. And that's it.

If female players who can compete against Taimou and IDDQD exist, nobody knows about them.

WhateverItTakes · Jan 11, 2018

GamingEnthusiast said:
Did you all just realize how male-dominated E-Sports really is? With that being said, Street Fighter has a transgender player that consistently scores in the top 32 and Smash Melee with that female player who is both cute, amazing at the game, and is in top 32 usually .

Why are you laughing? Getting just a single female player in one of the teams would have been huge in opening the door for others. But they didn't bother. Lame. What's happening in other scenes is pretty irrelevant, as is you thinking if a player is cute or not.

nomis said:
I don't see how Overwatch is inviting a higher level of scrutiny simply by having the audacity to be outwardly inclusive in the design and ethos of the game. How many female CS:GO players are there? DOTA? It's a systemic problem in the scene, not an Overwatch problem.

True, but since the league is just about to begin, it's timely to bring up these issues. Next time the international rolls round it'd be interesting to see/hear the experiences of women playing DOTA2 as well.

Risev · Jan 11, 2018

HarryDemeanor said:
Which doesn't make sense to me considering some of these teams have bigger rosters than each other. Certainly there's enough room on say the LA Gladiators team compared to Seoul Dynasty. Don't know what Blizzard were thinking when setting guidelines for team rosters.

hmm what do you mean? Each team has the same member limits. It's just that some teams didn't care enough to get more players since they're worried about messing up chemistry or it's just as simple as teams not having enough money to buy more players.

Firestorm · Jan 11, 2018

plagiarize said:
Why do they need to check what she wants? She was repeatedly mentioned as Kotaku report.

The reporting is on the tone of those conversations about her absence... and I don't see why Kotaku have to check with Geguri before reporting on that. They don't claim to present *her* feelings on the matter at all.

I mostly agree but I think it's important to recognize Geguri's agency in this situation. She did not want to play. A lot of that stems from the toxic environment esports presents for female players.

VAPORxDYNE · Jan 11, 2018

Dance Inferno said:
So the second best female player in the world isn't better than the 131st best male player in the world?

Come on folks. These arguments are incredibly specious and disingenuous.

I don't follow eSports dude, I don't have a list of female players for you. I couldn't even name any male players tbh other than Seagull.

Oh, you seemed so sure that that I assumed you had a small list you could provide off the top of your head, but you didn't want to bother typing out all the names or something. Honestly, it seems like the one with the weak argument is you. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if there were women who were as good or better than the OWL players, but who knows whether they even want to be OWL players or not. However, it's not like it is impossible for there to not be a single woman better than those players. I would imagine that if there was some super star woman player out there, every team would be scrambling to get her on the team asap because 1. she'd increase the chances of winning and 2. Having a woman on the team would be soooooo good for press and attracting fans.

Pirate Bae · Jan 11, 2018

jviggy43 said:
Women were also excluded from the field of arts for a number of areas of discrimination which led to the pretty popular notion regarding "why aren't there any good women artists throughout art history?", as if to imply that its a talent issue and not a discrimination one. Geguri, the best female OW player, was literally accused of cheating just for how good she was (and likely being a female). How many other OW players have to deal with headline inducing accusations about cheating after pretty clearly establishing themselves as legitimate? A lack of female players or notoriety does not mean they don't exist, just that there are more barriers for them and for some it may even turn them off from remaining in the competitive scene in the first place, which contributes to the problem.

Not only that, but these esports communities are usually hella toxic, so it goes without saying that many women want to avoid it altogether.

psychowave · Jan 11, 2018

ITT: people missing the point

Pirate Bae said:
Not only that, but these esports communities are usually hella toxic, so it goes without saying that many women want to avoid it altogether.

avatar quote :D

GamingEnthusiast · Jan 11, 2018

WhateverItTakes said:
What's happening in other scenes is pretty irrelevant

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. It is relevant because the nature of the issue is about why are female players in e-sports not represented as much. The examples I gave showed that this is not necessarily true and that e-sports managers/brands are not sexist since they have no problem sponsoring a transgender SF player and a cute melee female player. (She's genuinely cute and there's nothing wrong about me saying that she's cute! :p)

HarryDemeanor · Jan 11, 2018

Risev said:
hmm what do you mean? Each team has the same member limits. It's just that some teams didn't care enough to get more players since they're worried about messing up chemistry or it's just as simple as teams not having enough money to buy more players.

It was something I noticed going through the Overwatch League website when looking at the team rosters. Your post answered it for me and it should've been something I thought of before I hit submit.

jviggy43 · Jan 11, 2018

Pirate Bae said:
Not only that, but these esports communities are usually hella toxic, so it goes without saying that many women want to avoid it altogether.

Yeah I didn't even mention the toxicity of the gaming community (or any other various areas that could contribute to the problem). There are so many problems that I think its dangerous to just assume its a case of "the best players get to play", a notion which I think directly contributes to this issue.

Deleted member 24766 · Jan 11, 2018

WhateverItTakes said:
Why are you laughing? Getting just a single female player in one of the teams would have been huge in opening the door for others. But they didn't bother. Lame. What's happening in other scenes is pretty irrelevant, as is you thinking if a player is cute or not.

I don't understand this argument. If the only thing stopping someone from doing something they want to do is the lack of more of their gender, do they really want to do it? I am genuinely curious.

Let's assume that this is about skill rather than gender, which is clearly what Geruri suggests is the case: Why would a team hire a player that is less skilled than another just because of their gender? Just for the sake of diversity? That shouldn't be the case (Note, I am not 100% sure if this is the case - but I am going off of what Geruri has said herself).

UMadCuzUBad · Jan 11, 2018

It's like 120+ out of those 131 are white or asian males. There's an extreme lack of diversity in the OWL Good Old Boys Club.

Dark Ninja · Jan 11, 2018

For the amount of money these companies are throwing down to even be part of this league I don't blame them for going for the most known and skilled players. If I were them I would start a lower farming league where lower skilled or unknown players can participate in so I can have replace players as I need to.

Firestorm · Jan 11, 2018

VAPORxDYNE said:
Oh, you seemed so sure that that I assumed you had a small list you could provide off the top of your head, but you didn't want to bother typing out all the names or something. Honestly, it seems like the one with the weak argument is you. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if there were women who were as good or better than the OWL players, but who knows whether they even want to be OWL players or not. However, it's not like it is impossible for there to not be a single woman better than those players. I would imagine that if there was some super star woman player out there, every team would be scrambling to get her on the team asap because 1. she'd increase the chances of winning and 2. Having a woman on the team would be soooooo good for press and attracting fans.

Did you even read the article? A team actually said the press attention would turn them away from hiring a woman to play on the team.

CountAntonio · Jan 11, 2018

I honestly don't blame women for not wanting to participate in the toxicity that comes with competitive gaming. Genetic ability is not the issue here but an uninviting environment that keeps that demographic from exploding which is what needs to happen for those truly elite players to emerge.

i-hate-u · Jan 11, 2018

I don't know of many women players who played Overwatch at that high of a level since before it's inception in the Beta days. The player picks on those OW teams are not surprising.

pikachief · Jan 11, 2018

GamingEnthusiast said:
that female player who is both cute, amazing at the game, and is in top 32 usually .

Thank god shes cute too. I dont think I wouldve accepted her as a serious esports player otherwise!

/s

Overwatch League - Out of 131 players, not one woman

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