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Overwatch |OT2-2-2| Role With It

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OP
Dead Prince

Dead Prince

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,798
start of the new season sr gains. feels good.

played a mixture of bap and ana during my matches but holy crap why am i getting fps drops now.
 

Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,946
i hate the "there is no meta in plat" bullshit honestly, yes you can win with anything if you outplay the other team but all things being equal there are better and worse picks.
This is why people don't understand tier lists. Sure, you can win with any character, but some are undertuned relative to the rest of the playable options, and winning consistently with them required more work and means you actually should be at a higher rank than where you are, so all else is not actually equal. People who say "aw, is it's just low ranks, you can play whatever" ignore that with two equally skilled players, the one who isn't countered or a weaker option relative to the opponent is going to be the one with the >50% winrate.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,513
I'm really hoping tomorrow is the day Blizzard finally cops to Reaper's life steal being too much and lowers it. It wouldn't be if he had his old wraith and old shadow step, but with these abilities buffed, he's actually functional as a hero. He doesn't need that absurd amount of health steal. I just had a game where he was the only one left alive, vs my team of 4, so I left my 3 teammates to take him out because I assumed they could finish him off while I look for stragglers, but then I find out that he escaped and was nano'd in our backline when his ana came back.

It's just so blatantly stupid.
 

Solidsnakejej

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,628
Fort Lauderdale
A heads up, 3 OWL teams will be getting new skins, based on this tweet current Shock, Valiant, and Mayhem skins will be unavailable to buy after January 15th

This will probably included Shock and Valiant
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,513
From Kaplan on reddit
we're trying out some changes to immortality field to make it less oppressive. i missed the playtest today so i'll ask the crew how it went.
I don't think Immortality Field as an ability is unworkable, but like defense matrix, it needs to be severely limited due to how powerful it is.

But honestly, there are better ability concepts. I would like to hear how they justified this in discussions with regards to baps hero design overall
 

GLAVONAK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,402
immortality field is such a weird concept for an ability in this game anyway

if I were testing changes, I would suggest moving it to an ult (and moving amp matrix to a weaker, long cool down ability) that behaves sort of like a combo of Mei’s and Zen’s; a few seconds of cant-be-killed in this area (but not through healing) that goes away on its own but can be emp’d out (like Lucio’s ult)

basically make it more costly to use (and more costly to misfire or have it cancelled by a Sombra) and make it less frequent (which should make it less annoying to play against)

like most of the characters they’ve added since the game’s launch, Bap feels like he’s got one thing too many and I really hope they go simpler with future characters
 

SimpleCRIPPLE

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,322
Wrecking Ball is an oppressive PoS if you're team won't swap to counter. So much forced movement when the other team runs something like Lucio, Ball, Orisa, and Doomfist.

You're constantly being booked around.
 

n.thou

Member
Mar 22, 2019
249
I'm seriously over the ages it takes for matchmaking. I tried a "quick game" and it was >10min wait for tank, shooter (my preference) and healer - each of them 10 min at least wait...20min later i still wasnt in a game. I've been playing since launch and am at a very healthy level 72.

So i switched over to arcade and tried every single one of the options...not one of them matched me in 20min waiting for EACH.

WTF is up with this? it didnt use to be this bad...i'm based in Australia and can see the server cloud i'm loading into is Americas. i used to enjoy playing mostly weekends/evenings but the last 2 weeks i've been on holiday and really wanted to get my Overwatch gaming i've played maybe 5 games total.

This is losing me and i loved this game - far and away my favourite multiplayer given Quake Champions is Dead and i had the same issue with DOOM(2016) where matches just wouldnt get filled.

Time to find a new multiplayer FPS i guess...maybe go back to counterstrike; but that is full of ninja-sniper like players now...sigh >>loads up fortnite>>

Sad.
 

daegan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
956
I'm seriously over the ages it takes for matchmaking. I tried a "quick game" and it was >10min wait for tank, shooter (my preference) and healer - each of them 10 min at least wait...20min later i still wasnt in a game. I've been playing since launch and am at a very healthy level 72.
The past two nights in quickplay it's said between 8 and 10 minutes for tank, but I haven't waited more than 3 minutes. I'm in the 50s, but I'm in the US, fwiw.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,033
Toronto, Canada
Was expecting this to be honest. I love playing as Baptiste but even I have to admit the character is too well rounded. Even if they were to nerf immortality, or move it to an Ult ability he would still be stupidly good with his healing output, DPS and movement.
 

Noppie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,446
I still like A_Seagull's idea of having Baptiste's healing heal more on direct hits, rather than how it is now. Would encourage aiming while not completely punishing his splash heals. Along with a nerf to Immortality or damage output, because that's still insanity.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,513
I just feel like Bap has one ability too many.

If we take Immortality field and his gun as a given, taking out either jump boots or his AoE heal would result in a balanced character.

Bap without his jump boots - Super powerful healer and fighter that with a large hitbox and no escape ability

Bap without his AoE heal - Strong healer and fighter with large hitbox but ultra-high skill requirement and lack of self healing
 

Solidsnakejej

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,628
Fort Lauderdale
Next live patch should be the 15th so PTR within a week of that with mid-February release

We’ve actually been playtesting a Boosters cooldown reduction recently.

It sounded kind of intimidating on paper (tested a 3 sec CD first) but in practice hasn’t been that crazy and allows D.Va to play the midfield more freely, which works well with the current 10 meter Defense Matrix range.

Some version should make it to the next PTR cycle.
 

GLAVONAK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,402
did my support placements: four wins and a draw, played as Lucio in all but one match and had gold healing every time (32k my last match lmao)

placed 100 sr higher than last season, not like I really care anymore lol
just give me as many gold weapon points as I can get
 

Noppie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,446
Next live patch should be the 15th so PTR within a week of that with mid-February release



Meh. Permanent flying D.Va completely dominating the mid-range field isn't something I'm particularly interested in, as much as I like the character. Not that she'll see any play as long as mei is a thing.
 

Solidsnakejej

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,628
Fort Lauderdale
The latest Dev post that is getting the community riled up, not surprised they don't post more.
Dropping by with a fun fact!
Looking at GM players for the current patch (1.43), Genji and Soldier: 76 are #6 and #7 in terms of win rate for damage heroes (out of 16 total).

They’re not doing quite as poorly as the general community sentiment would imply. Game balance perceptions/opinions are often repeated and perpetuated enough that they start to become accepted as fact by many players.

We also should remember that things like win rates and hero power/effectiveness can fluctuate significantly depending on the players’ skill level. If someone complains that Reaper is too strong and another says that Reaper is too weak, they could both be correct for their current skill level.

When making balance changes we typically look at the high end potential of player skill for a hero but also try to keep in mind if a given change would be a significant detriment to the overall gameplay experience in lower skill brackets and attempt to find better solution if so.

I think in general being wary of extreme “power creep” is a valid and healthy concern if it’s causing gameplay to become too wildly distorted from the core experience. I don’t feel that we’re currently anywhere close to that with the live game.


I would like to assume they're not looking at win rates in a vacuum, I would personally say that I think power creep in Supports/tanks is more an issue in DPS. I would also say Reaper is fairly countered by Brig and Sigma and not as big of a problem as a Doomfist who can yolo out of nowhere take out a support and get out.

Also viability shouldn't be the only judge of a character in the game.

Ultimate power creep is definitely an issue though, Sigma, Doomfist, Sombra ults should be considerably change to allow for actual counter play rather then relying on a support having a defensive ult, a shield tank blocking doom's or a support with defensive ult hiding to avoid emp which harkens back to the issues with old Mercy
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,659
The latest Dev post that is getting the community riled up, not surprised they don't post more.




I would like to assume they're not looking at win rates in a vacuum, I would personally say that I think power creep in Supports/tanks is more an issue in DPS. I would also say Reaper is fairly countered by Brig and Sigma and not as big of a problem as a Doomfist who can yolo out of nowhere take out a support and get out.

Also viability shouldn't be the only judge of a character in the game.

Ultimate power creep is definitely an issue though, Sigma, Doomfist, Sombra ults should be considerably change to allow for actual counter play rather then relying on a support having a defensive ult, a shield tank blocking doom's or a support with defensive ult hiding to avoid emp which harkens back to the issues with old Mercy
Bolded is very true. There aren't enough material differences between heroes in 2-2-2 roles for ow to get to a spot where every hero can be viable in certain situations. Some heroes are always gonna be kind of unviable at a pro level. They just need to balance it so the unviable heroes are the low skill ones that are boring to watch (moira, orisa, mercy, Brigitte, etc).

edit: although they should still buff under performers obviously.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,513
The problems as I see them in the game right now:

Baptiste - He basically has no weaknesses
Sigma - His damage output is equivalent to that of a dps with none (or few) of the drawbacks of being a tank. Seriously, they need to keep weaknesses in mind when they design characters.
Mei - Her freeze is simply too strong.
D.Va - she's not the most powerful character in the game and that is a crime
Reaper - 40% lifesteal is stupid with his buffed mobility.
 

MCD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,096
Veelk

You were right. Blizzard are too stubborn to admit their mistake.

Thier comment on the powercreep thingy is ignorant and awful. They got no clue how to balance at all.

They also doing nerf to the field cooldown and yay more mobility creep for D.VA. Yaaaay just buff buff buff nerf nerf nerf.

So damn tired of this. I'm gonna play Sekiro again and again till they wake up.
 

Noppie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,446
The problems as I see them in the game right now:

Baptiste - He basically has no weaknesses
Sigma - His damage output is equivalent to that of a dps with none (or few) of the drawbacks of being a tank. Seriously, they need to keep weaknesses in mind when they design characters.
Mei - Her freeze is simply too strong.
D.Va - she's not the most powerful character in the game and that is a crime
Reaper - 40% lifesteal is stupid with his buffed mobility.
Baptiste can be effectively countered by dive (although he still needs tweaks), but the number 2 and 4 on that list prevent dive from being played. Honestly the problems are not as bad as people are trying to make them (like the user above resulting to insults and generalizing the comments of one developer to the entire team) and a handful of proper changes could result in a fun game.
 

MCD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,096
I'm sorry for insulting the devs when I spent almost three years of my life playing and defending their decisions on several occasions.

The changes you are so hopeful for may not come so soon with their mentality.
 

Noppie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,446
I'm sorry for insulting the devs when I spent almost three years of my life playing and defending their decisions on several occasions.

The changes you are so hopeful for may not come so soon with their mentality.
I'm not hopeful for anything, nor am I particularly fond of defending multibillion dollar companies on their decisions. I just roll eith what we get and take a break if I don't enjoy something.

You do you though.
 

MCD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,096
I'm not hopeful for anything, nor am I particularly fond of defending multibillion dollar companies on their decisions. I just roll eith what we get and take a break if I don't enjoy something.

You do you though.
I haven't played in a week actually. I was just disheartened to read the devs out of touch comment so I will probably take my break further.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,513
I'm surprised that comment caused a shit storm. I disagree with it and evidently so does the community, but it's no like he said anything offensive. At worst, it's just that the balance is being done in a way most people don't like, which is... Welcome to Overwatch lol
 

Solidsnakejej

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,628
Fort Lauderdale
Yes pick rates are definitely important to consider when trying to interpret win rates. The win rates I’m looking at are from un-mirrored competitive ladder stats (specifically for PC players on patch 1.43 at the GM+ MMR range), meaning games where the hero is not being actively played on both teams.

We don’t balance solely off of stats anyway but they help inform us when something could be really out of whack or can give us a slightly more unbiased lens when trying to identify the root causes of gameplay issues.

Stats don’t do a great job of telling us subjective things like how fun something is, player feedback does. We can try to infer a little bit of that from pick rate but there are too many competing factors.

The most common feedback I’ve been reading recently is that Baptiste and Mei are very overpowered (there are some upcoming changes to these two as well) and Genji/Soldier are clearly the weakest heroes.

When I looked into the current patch stats, Mei and Genji are both very middle of the pack for GM where I would normally expect players to adhere more closely to the meta.
There’s only about 8 heroes with higher pick rates than Mei/Genji. Soldier pick rate is low, coming in at slightly less than half of Genji’s and is on par with Ashe for both pick/win rate.

One of the perceived strongest and one of the perceived weakest heroes have nearly identical pick rate and win rate. I found this personally very interesting and wanted to share.
My post above was intending to get people to consider that this data, while not absolute or conclusive of anything on its own, may suggest off-meta heroes are much more viable on the competitive ladder than players tend to expect, even at the highest levels. Professional play is likely another story.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,033
Toronto, Canada
That and:
Hey, thanks for trying to clarify this! I’m definitely hearing a ton of feedback over the last day and am learning a bunch from this experience.

I came to share my personal viewpoint, listen to the community, and try to make the game better together. I’m truly not attempting to callously disregard anyone’s concerns and say everything is fine.

I’m aware there are distinct increases in power across several aspects of the game such as raw healing output, the introduction of new heroes and mechanics, or things like Wrecking Ball’s extreme mobility. I don’t think this is inherently negative as balance is relative across a large number of factors. There have also been losses of power such as the recent barrier changes.

The idea I was trying to express (and failed to, clearly…) is that I don’t personally feel like there is an unreasonable amount of excessive power creep that makes the core gameplay not feel like Overwatch anymore.
For example, GOATS comp was getting in that space for me, not necessarily due to individual hero power increases but from the combined synergy of the comp moving away from feeling like a shooter.
 

Rirse

Member
Jun 29, 2019
363
I actually liked Sym's rolling shield she during the twin ult era she had. Could kept it or gave her the Sigma version of it.
 

MCD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,096
Dev keeps dancing around pick rates and not really addressing power creep.

Changes to Mei is a good step but Ball is one piece of shit hero that Mei is needed for. Let's see how this goes.

Sorry if I sounded rude btw. I just don't trust the w current state of things.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,513
Regard to shield tanks, every one of them is designed with certian limitations.

Winstons is....well, it used to be the weakest of all shields, but it covered the greatest area. And, attached to Winston's jetpack, it allowed itself to be placed anywhere Winston decided to dive. In contrast, Orisa can only place her shield in front of her. She can shoot it out over a long distance, I suppose, but that's very rarely optimal, as it's shape is meant to encompass her. But once that shield is placed, Orisa is committed to staying in that spot for atleast 10 seconds. If the enemy flanks, she can't reposition the shield and, lacking mobility, all she can do is hope to survive the battle (which she might as her other abilities are handly in keeping her alive). And with Rein, his shield has the greatest hitpoints, but it's deployable at will, but perpetually attached to Rein himself, who has abiltiies that can help him in a brawl but do little over a distance.

So...Sigma

His Shield is attached to his person, like Reins, but is deployable to an area, like Orisa's. But his commitment with it is much closer to Rein's since he can recall and redeploy it with basically just a one second cooldown. His abilities that pair with it are like super charged versions of Rein adn Orisa's. Where Rein's brawler capabilities were limited by his range, Sigma has extreme midrange damage and even a stun on cooldown. Where Orisa has fortify to shield her when her shield breaks, Sigma has an absorption ability that gives him more shields.

So, it's honestly like someone took Rein's and Orisa's shield, then paired him with abilities that scrub away any limitation that shield leaves him.

Like Baptiste, Sigma feels like he has one ability too many. If he is meant to be an attack tank, one that can brawl with dps like Roadhog or D.Va, then he shouldn't have Kinetic Grasp. He should have his shield and otherwise rely on his offensive abilities. Or, he should be a defender tank, something like a more mobile Orisa, and just be super hard to actually do damage to and lack that Accretion ability. But if he has both, then he basically has no weakness.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,513
Dev keeps dancing around pick rates and not really addressing power creep.

Changes to Mei is a good step but Ball is one piece of shit hero that Mei is needed for. Let's see how this goes.

Sorry if I sounded rude btw. I just don't trust the w current state of things.
Mei is the strongest counter to Ball there is, but it's not that bad. He feels kind of like Doom where if you don't CC him, he's unstoppable but if you do, he's helpless. Doom was only powerful during goats and double shield since he was one of the few that could ignore shields, but otherwise is always going to be extremely vulnerable to CC, and that's kind of where Hammond is at.
 

MCD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,096
Mei is the strongest counter to Ball there is, but it's not that bad. He feels kind of like Doom where if you don't CC him, he's unstoppable but if you do, he's helpless. Doom was only powerful during goats and double shield since he was one of the few that could ignore shields, but otherwise is always going to be extremely vulnerable to CC, and that's kind of where Hammond is at.
Ball mobility and tankness are way too strong. Add D.VA boosters buff and you got another tank flying and CCing your face.

I don't believe it's as simple as one CC and they are done. Mei kept him in check. If they touch Mei, they also need to see Ball.

Doom is still strong. Same with Hanzo but the devs refuse to see that and rather tell us how Genji and Soldier are fine in GM.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,513
Ball mobility and tankness are way too strong. Add D.VA boosters buff and you got another tank flying and CCing your face.

I don't believe it's as simple as one CC and they are done. Mei kept him in check. If they touch Mei, they also need to see Ball.

Doom is still strong. Same with Hanzo but the devs refuse to see that and rather tell us how Genji and Soldier are fine in GM.
I don't mind Doom being strong. I just don't want him too strong. He has his counters in CC (and long range damage), so he can be contained, but is a terror if he isn't. He has a clear weakness. I'm fine with that as game design (see my sigma commentary above).

With Ball, no, 1 CC doesn't do the trick, but it does severely damage him and gives you plenty of ult charge. But if you CC him twice, he's almost certainly dead. McCree Flashbangs him and Brig stuns him with the team focusing him (which they should), you feast on his corpse. Sombra can also hack him or Ana can sleep him or Orisa can Halt him or Hog can Hook him. Also high damage dealers like Reaper or Bastion eat him alive.

If you nerf Mei into unplayableness (which I don't think most people want anyway, they just want her tuned down a bit), then his worst fear sans maybe sombra is off the table, but there's still plenty of counters. And if not, then he will just get patched accordingly in another month or two. Such is the way of OW.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,513
How do I use Sigma's mobility ability? It must not be on my client since he has 'no drawbacks'
I'm not saying he has literally everything. Just enough to not have a notable weakness. His lack of mobility isn't a weakness if his defense is so strong that he doesn't need mobility.

That said, he can fly with his ultimate ability, so he has mobility, relatively minor and circumstantial though it may be.
 

Noppie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,446
Ball mobility and tankness are way too strong. Add D.VA boosters buff and you got another tank flying and CCing your face.

I don't believe it's as simple as one CC and they are done. Mei kept him in check. If they touch Mei, they also need to see Ball.

Doom is still strong. Same with Hanzo but the devs refuse to see that and rather tell us how Genji and Soldier are fine in GM.
You can touch Mei while still having her viable and a counter to Ball. It's a bit overreactionary, as usual with the community I guess, to assume 'changes to X = garbage, Y is OP now'. Especially when we don't even know the changes.
 

MCD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,096
You can touch Mei while still having her viable and a counter to Ball. It's a bit overreactionary, as usual with the community I guess, to assume 'changes to X = garbage, Y is OP now'. Especially when we don't even know the changes.
As I said, we shall see. Knowing Blizzard, they either buff alll the way or nerf all the way. That's why I don't fancy their balance much.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,182
So...Sigma

His Shield is attached to his person, like Reins, but is deployable to an area, like Orisa's. But his commitment with it is much closer to Rein's since he can recall and redeploy it with basically just a one second cooldown. His abilities that pair with it are like super charged versions of Rein adn Orisa's. Where Rein's brawler capabilities were limited by his range, Sigma has extreme midrange damage and even a stun on cooldown. Where Orisa has fortify to shield her when her shield breaks, Sigma has an absorption ability that gives him more shields.

So, it's honestly like someone took Rein's and Orisa's shield, then paired him with abilities that scrub away any limitation that shield leaves him.

Like Baptiste, Sigma feels like he has one ability too many. If he is meant to be an attack tank, one that can brawl with dps like Roadhog or D.Va, then he shouldn't have Kinetic Grasp. He should have his shield and otherwise rely on his offensive abilities. Or, he should be a defender tank, something like a more mobile Orisa, and just be super hard to actually do damage to and lack that Accretion ability. But if he has both, then he basically has no weakness.
I don't see it. As he is now, he's awful unless he's paired with another shield tank, as he doesn't have the defensive capabilities to be able to front-line by himself. Of course, once he does have that second shield to play around, he can feel oppressive as his left click has a bit too much going on for how much damage it does (it has aoe, can be angled round corners, and is very bursty).
 

shodgson8

Member
Aug 22, 2018
377
So...I burnt out in the beta waay back and only ever played two hours after the actual release and dropped it. For no reason at all I got the urge to play some Overwatch today.

Game is so different from what I remember but I am having a good time. Probably need to hunt down some guides /primers to catch up a bit.

The commend system seems very cool though, pretty certain it wasn’t in the game when I played.