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Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
This guy gets it.

Edit: though I'd say it's still just as hard to get a (stick) perfectly executed kill, and much harder if it's just tossed into a group in a hallway who can just walk out of its radius.
True, but that's a sensible nerf imo. Want a kill? Get dat stick then.

Also, I wish they would do something about that thing where the bomb disappears if someone kills tracer before it sticks anywhere. I've had so many bombs that were clearly thrown, often even leaving tracer's hand, that disappear into thin air. It's very annoying.
 

dr.rocktopus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,257
True, but that's a sensible nerf imo. Want a kill? Get dat stick then.

Also, I wish they would do something about that thing where the bomb disappears if someone kills tracer before it sticks anywhere. I've had so many bombs that were clearly thrown, often even leaving tracer's hand, that disappear into thin air. It's very annoying.

I didn't even realize this was a thing. But I think changing it would make sense considering other "thrown" style ults.
 

Chance

Member
Nov 22, 2017
1,540
True, but that's a sensible nerf imo. Want a kill? Get dat stick then.

Wait wait wait - are you suggesting that sticking a Pulse Bomb is a skillshot, and an ult's potential value is somehow reflected in the degree of skill required to execute it correctly?

(Reaches slowly for a stack of D.Va kill montages.)

There's something you need to see and you might find it very disturbing.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
Wait wait wait - are you suggesting that sticking a Pulse Bomb is a skillshot, and an ult's potential value is somehow reflected in the degree of skill required to execute it correctly?

(Reaches slowly for a stack of D.Va kill montages.)

There's something you need to see and you might find it very disturbing.
I'm saying it more or less should be, but I understand that's not absolutely always the case. When it gets down to it, the damage Tracer does with her pistols combined with her evasiveness leads to a really high killing potential that makes it so that her ult needing a little more skill isn't the end of the world for her.

As far as D.Va goes, don't you dare shit talk my girl. With tracer, her effectiveness depends on you being able to make dat stick. With D.Va, her effectiveness mostly depends on the opponents not being able to avoid dat bomb. The job of the D.Va is less to fire an aim intensive bomb so much as to idenify and exploit the opponents weaknesses in game sense. It's a different sort of skill set.
 

Chance

Member
Nov 22, 2017
1,540
Also I agree that Tracer's base kit is so potentially powerful in skilled hands that she probably shouldn't have maybe even the team-wiping ability of Dragonblade - I guess a super-skill Genji's not much of a threat by comparison? - but if we're going to agree that Pulse needs to be about as strong as a powerful CD skill its ult charge should be reduced.

It's already very low - 2.5 clips of headshots will get one, I think - but consider that the team-wiping potential of dragonblade requires a scant 375 more charge than a pulse to obtain.

I will GLADLY charge a 1500 ult for the potential to deal... 120×6×6=4320 damage, thank you very much.

Orrr drop the ult charge requirement to reflect its poor killing potential.

Right now it's in a fucked up limbo between two reasonable options.
 

Salarians

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,725
momwife.club
guess there's no paris today but

DzYzUyaXcAAPzDt
 

Solidsnakejej

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,769
Fort Lauderdale
Papa Jeff said:
Well, just speaking for myself here, but I expected 1 to 2 tanks and 1 to 2 supports with more variance. I also expected more hero switching. Naively, I didn't expect "maining" and "one-tricking" to be so dominant.

We imagined a world where players would be ok with Torbjorn on defense but not playing him on attack. The maining/one-trick mindset led to us having to rework those characters to fit with how the game eventually evolved to be played. I guess what I am saying is we hoped to be able to create more highly situational characters with the thought that players would switch in situations where those characters weren't as viable.

We like the direction things evolved and in hindsight, it seems obvious that they would evolve that way. It's not that one direction is good or bad… they're just different directions and we adapted to what the playerbase was doing, rather than fighting against their instincts.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/t/why-nobody-likes-3-4-dps-jeff-replied/302637/45
 

Chance

Member
Nov 22, 2017
1,540
Sometimes I capture footage when I have fun in Overwatch and then I make like, a video and put some music on it an' stuff.

And I did it again!



MH and QP PotGs on Not-Tracer.
 

Terraj_RSL

Member
Feb 8, 2018
866
Anyone know when the "CTF Event" ends? I don't really care about CTF, but I'm just gonna do the placement matches to get the competitive points.
 

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,077
Phoenix, AZ
I still need to do my ctf placements too. I probably wont play any more games of it though like I did last year. I'd rather play regular comp so I don't end the season 150 SR lower than last season.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
Jeff Kaplan said:
Respawn did such a good job with the Ping System in Apex Legends. It works really well.

Back in early development of Overwatch, we actually had a very similar ping system. Ours was inspired from MOBA's like League of Legends and Heroes of the Storm.

We eventually removed it because of a few issues.

  1. With 6 people on the team, it got very spammy if more than a few people were using it
  2. The geography of Overwatch maps as well as the engagement distances is fairly constrained. This made pinging upwards challenging and often frustrating. An example is standing at the gate of point A of Temple of Anubis and trying to ping the upper ledge above the gate entering point B. Our engagement distances tend to be in the 10-30 meter range (for perspective it's about 45 meters all the way across the entire dojo in Hanamura B). In Apex, you have very long engagement distances and very big maps… it makes it easier to ping below you
It would be fun to revisit the system and see if we could make something like that workable. We do have some designs for improvements and customization to the communication wheel that we're trying to get in. But we're always appreciative of feedback and suggestions.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/o...g-system-in-overwatch/302312/28?u=veelk-11623

I feel like we get a lot of these sort of responses, these "We can see the value of the idea, but we have some issues with it, so nah" sort of responses, and I'm sick of it. To his credit, he makes it clear they're playing with the idea again, but it's the same sort of response to stuff like 2/2/2 role queue or scoreboard or solo queue. Yeah, nothing is perfect, but I would rather try these imperfect ideas that might nevertheless be improvements over what we have now instead of just doing nothing about the problems we have at present.

So the ping system of Apex Legends won't be as brilliant in Overwatch as it is in Apex Legends because it's a fundamentally different game. So what? Give it to me anyway, it will atleast help somewhat.
 

Buttchin-n-Bones

Actually knows the TOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,628
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/o...g-system-in-overwatch/302312/28?u=veelk-11623

I feel like we get a lot of these sort of responses, these "We can see the value of the idea, but we have some issues with it, so nah" sort of responses, and I'm sick of it. To his credit, he makes it clear they're playing with the idea again, but it's the same sort of response to stuff like 2/2/2 role queue or scoreboard or solo queue. Yeah, nothing is perfect, but I would rather try these imperfect ideas that might nevertheless be improvements over what we have now instead of just doing nothing about the problems we have at present.

So the ping system of Apex Legends won't be as brilliant in Overwatch as it is in Apex Legends because it's a fundamentally different game. So what? Give it to me anyway, it will atleast help somewhat.
Blizzard will rarely not get skewered if they implement any kind of change and it fails.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Apex's ping system would need a significant overhaul in Overwatch. Having six people wildly pinging every random thing every second of every match would get old real fucking fast.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
Apex's ping system would need a significant overhaul in Overwatch. Having six people wildly pinging every random thing every second of every match would get old real fucking fast.

Like...the fact that the OW devs would have to change it to cater to OW's needs is a point so obvious that I can't believe I have to clarify that i don't expect a 1-to-1 transplant of AL's ping to OW. Like, what your bringing up isn't even a relevant point. Just have it be on a timer like voice lines are so they're not endlessly spammable. The solution that that particular problem is already in the game.

But I think people miss the fact that even a flawed improvement would still be an improvement. If I had to deal with people spamming ping locations needlessly because somehow Blizzard forgot to add a timer on them like they have on voice lines, I would still say I'd rather have a spammable ping system than no ping system.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Just have it be on a timer like voice lines are so they're not endlessly spammable.

You can't put a timer on pings because you often legitimately need to ping something repeatedly, like if an enemy is rapidly moving to different locations. I guess a solution would be to limit the number and type of pings available, but even then most of them would still be useless in the hands of the average player. People in Overwatch are bad at communicating not because they don't want to, but because they don't know what type of information is useful and when that information needs to be conveyed to the team. You can't force gamesense.

What Overwatch really, really needs, before anything else, is a proper fucking tutorial mode. A tutorial mode where it actually explains that you're supposed to wait for your team to group up before you rush the point after respawning, for example.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
you often legitimately need to ping something repeatedly
You're not getting it. I'm not actually disagreeing with you. However, your counterpoint doesn't really matter, because that's not what I'm saying.

Being able to ping a moving target in the direction that they're going might be better than only being able to ping one location at a time, but you know what? Both those are better than not being able to ping anything at all.
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,785
Blizzard's perfectionist mentality is why we can't get these little nice features sooner rather than later or never.
 

dr.rocktopus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,257
Ping would be incredible for actually picking out enemies. I don't even care for the objective pings in Apex to come over. But being able to call out flankers would help so much since vocal call outs don't always work.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
Blizzard's perfectionist mentality is why we can't get these little nice features sooner rather than later or never.
I hear that all the time, but it's bullshit.

"Hey, want mystery heroes? Cool, here you go, now we're gonna wait 8 months before we take out the hero select screen that is useless because you can't choose your selection anyway"

"Hey, deathmatch is great, right? btw, we're not gonna let Ana Nanoboost herself until several months down the line. Mercy got a rework later on, but when she had mass rez, she couldn't use her ult either. And Zarya still can't use her ally bubble on anyone, meaning she basically has 1 ability where everyone else has 2."

"Hey, how about that endorsement system that is so basic and perfunctory that everyone started ignoring it about 2 months after we launched it and we haven't given any changes to make it better since launch"

We get half-assed features all the time! Except instead of useful feature's, they're bullshit like fucking mystery deathmatch.
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,785
I'm with you Veelk. Trust me I'm with you with everything you said.

But Blizzard is like Apple. You know, "courage". Lol

It's perfect in their own world view. Not us.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
You're not getting it. I'm not actually disagreeing with you. However, your counterpoint doesn't really matter, because that's not what I'm saying.

Being able to ping a moving target in the direction that they're going might be better than only being able to ping one location at a time, but you know what? Both those are better than not being able to ping anything at all.

To be clear, I've argued for a while that the voice line system needs an overhaul; for example, the "Group up with me" line should be replaced with something like "Fall back!" or "Retreat!", and they should add lines like "Wait for me," "I think [highlighted enemy] has their ultimate," "We're being flanked," and "Hold this position," etc. that can help people without mics to more tactically assist their team.

However, I think there's also a common misunderstanding about the purpose of Apex's ping system versus Overwatch's voice lines. Apex's pings are meant to supplement, not replace, the standard voice chat. Apex's map is so big that even when in voice chat, it can be difficult to convey exactly what you're talking about without pings. "Hey, let's go on that rooftop!" "Which one? There's like six buildings over there." "The one on the left!" "Your left or my left?" "The blue one!" "There are three blue ones." You need pings to correctly point out which part of the map you're talking about, and enemies are all small, fast-moving, and hard to see. "There's an enemy over there!" "Over where?" "Behind that rock!" "Which rock?"

In Overwatch, the maps are small and very distinct, and characters are big, colorful, and slow-moving. There is far less value to 99% of players to be able to specifically point out who is where at a given time. "Orisa's on that roof!" Yeah, no shit, she's a huge robot cow, everyone can see her, and there's only one roof in this entire part of the map, so your single voice chat line has already given me all the information I need. Pinging her location is just additional visual and audio clutter that isn't necessary.

What you're suggesting, and I understand why, is the advocation of a ping system as a replacement for traditional voice chat. But that system can only go so far and is more useful in some genres than others. Overwatch is a tactical game where positioning and gamesense are important; these are things that you just can't automate, at the end of the day. Ultimately, you've got to speak, out loud, what it is that you're trying to convey to the team. In a game like Apex, the pings don't really replace voice chat either, they supplement it; however, because of the way the battle royale genre is designed (massive maps, sneaky enemies, items all over the place) a system for pinging specific locations has a lot of value.

When you want to add a new feature to a multiplayer game, the very first thing you have to consider is how this feature could be abused by bad actors. A ping system similar to Apex's would have minimal value in 90% of situations and would otherwise just be misused constantly by players who are either too dumb to know what information they need to ping, or are deliberately griefing. If you want better communication options, an overhaul of the existing voice line system would be far easier. The only ping that I could see having decent value would be the ability to mark a part of the map, maybe once every five seconds, and then your character yells "I think they're coming through here!" This would let you identify areas where you think the enemy is about to flank or attack through.

It's very easy to just say "Just add pings 4head" but there's perhaps a reason why other multiplayer game developers have decided not to add this type of system outside the battle royale genre.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
What you're suggesting, and I understand why, is the advocation of a ping system as a replacement for traditional voice chat
I never said that. I would never give up voice chat. I don't think anyone ever said this. However, merely because voice chat is there does not mean people will use it. So, for many cases, it's either the ping system or nothing at all.

But even so, I think you have it wrong. Many different players said how they felt the ping system was good enough that they didn't have to talk at all. obviously, this isn't like tournament level players, but the fact that many comment how effective they are without ever having to speak...well, speaks volumes.

Yes - less so compared to disliked changes. It's harder to criticize nothing than it is to criticize something bad.
I disagree. We have PLENTY to criticize right now. It's really easy to do because we've been doing it for 3 years, so we've had a lot of practice. A problematic new solution would atleast be novel.
 
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Jarate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,614
Whats really sad about the current meta is besides goats existing and pissing off people, the meta is in a really good place for comp play. Lots of hero variety and coordination. I was able to play in a 6 stack the other day and had a lot of fun with that.

This game will still bleed players until they figure out how to make it fun for the average game with only a small amount of coordination though. I think a few of the new characters need major reworks. Sombra needs a new ult imo, way too good for how fast it builds, all it is is a large scale version of her normal ability which seems boring, Doomfist needs a rework to try to find a way to make him viable while not making him awful to play against. Brig needs a rework. although I think a lot of her problems would be solved by making her stun a slow where you cant use movement options outside of explosion knock back. I also really think Reinhardt needs to be fixed again. Ive been playing him a lot recently and he is so fucking inconsistent with pins. Ill get the worst pins ive ever seen (I crashed into a wall next to a doorway and someone standing in the doorframe but pinned somehow) while getting pure hits right where im supposed to, only to see enemies fall down. His shatter is still super inconsistent as well.

This game also desperately needs more heros in the healing and tank roles. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing heroes that still dont get lots of play (Torb and Symmetra) being moved to these positions and reworked again. Barik works really well in Paladins as a tank, and I think Torb could work well too. I think Doomfist is also another character you can redesign into a tank without changing their looks at all.
 

Buttchin-n-Bones

Actually knows the TOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,628
I disagree. We have PLENTY to criticize right now. It's really easy to do because we've been doing it for 3 years, so we've had a lot of practice. A problematic new solution would atleast be novel.
It's unfocused, which makes it harder. Looser ideas, less community togetherness, more spitballing.

Before: Reaper sucks. He will never be meta.
After: Reaper is oppressive to tanks, Reaper still is iffy in high-level but dominant in lower ranks, Reaper will always be a pub stomper, Reaper needs this instead of this, that instead of that, etc.

Before: Mercy hide and seek is dumb and permits low-ranked players to rise far above their station
After: The moth has ruined OW balance. Res doesn't fit in this game. Mercy is too much of an all-rounder. Mercy makes mistakes worthless because she can fix it. Other supports need to be buffed because they need skill.

Outrage is always harsher when it has a target. When OW is in the stagnant phase that it is right now, everyone's pointing in different directions. Role queue forced/unforced? Too many DPS heroes? Ping system? Everyone's got ideas and they spend differing amount of energy on each of them. When Blizz fucks up, all of the energy is directed towards the fuckup.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
This is me ._. when everyone on OWL were :o when they saw basic Sym teleporter plays (that any Sym main can do with both thier eyes closed) on OWL.

Have a seat y'all, I'll create more of those light stools for everyone. There will be plenty to go around.
 
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MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,785
This is me ._. when everyone on OWL were :o when they saw basic Sym teleporter plays (that any Sym main can do with both thier eyes closed) on OWL.

Have a seat y'all, I'll create more of those light stools for everyone. There will be plenty to go around.

You gotta remember that any shake up can disrupt even the best players. OWL was all GOATS for like a year. A Symm, Mei or Bastion, heroes that are not usually played in OWL can be very disruptive.

After a few games though it will be predictable.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
You gotta remember that any shake up can disrupt even the best players. OWL was all GOATS for like a year. A Symm, Mei or Bastion, heroes that are not usually played in OWL can be very disruptive.

After a few games though it will be predictable.
Oh I'm with you but just chuckling to see basic ladder Sym strat getting some plays in a pro environment :p

I hope we see turret tp bombs and mecha bombs next lol
 

Terraj_RSL

Member
Feb 8, 2018
866
Question: I own OverWatch on PS4 (disc), but saw that the digital version was on sale for $30 during the OWL, so I was wondering:
  1. Is there any performance improvement (loading, framerate) with the digital version versus the disc version?
  2. Will the Legendary Edition lootBox *bonuses* be added to my account with the digital version, even though I already redeemed the disc version?
 
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