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RebelDeux

Member
Nov 20, 2017
180
It's sad how far the X1 sales have fallen, I used to be a fan but this era is just pointless and the console feels bland/plain/boring as hell.

Nintendo has their main characters and bombastic ideas

Sony has a lot or great exclusives and a slick design.

Microsoft has 4K but for what? Sadly they don't have cool things to showcase it, yeah the 3Ps look great but what about the Microsoft substance? That's why the Switch made more damage to the X1 than otherwise, they hit the $189 bottom and no one still cares and it seems like X1X numbers were meh-ish. They better step up their game next era (2019 because by 2020 they will be done).
 

Welfare

Prophet of Truth - You’re my Numberwall
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,915
100,000 for PS4 is insane. Not far off from the UK. Too bad they didn't report XB1 sales as well.
 

OG_Thrills

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,655
Japan is now 200k
Germany is probably > 200k
UK from last week was >250k
Spain is now 87k

Its looking good for GTS.

The point is... until a few years ago, GT was the trend-setter. GT was a juggernaut franchise: selling constantly 11m+ units across five entries and more than a decade is not something that any franchise can reach. Sure, the racing genre is declining but the relationship is of simultaneity rather than unilateral. GT has always been in a league of its own but business mistakes decreased its relevance. Now, you can believe the game is selling so well but just have a look at Amazon price trackers to see at how much is selling in many countries. A successful game doesn't sell at 40% of its RSP just a few weeks after launch. Random numbers inferred here and there do not mean much when retailers are already discounting copies.

Sfortunato.

I need to quote a couple of your posts just to show the contrast. While you insist GTS is a flop. When it comes to Forza a game that hasn't sold 100K yet in the UK and has never sold well enough to register on ANY EU chart. Your excuses are...


Yes, they were mismanaged in my opinion. Too frequent releases leads to franchise fatigue. Too small marketing budget and inadequate release window also affect sales. These were surely factors that impacted Forza and Project Cars. Hard to say that the racing genre was affected by mobile gaming as there are not valuable and popular racing games on iOS/Android. Also, again, those franchises don't have the status and reputation GT has. GT has been a consistent >10m across 5 entries, 3 generations, 15 years.

If Sony didn't see GT6 performing badly and leading to possible franchise disaffection then they should hire better analysts, lol. I think there are also some dynamics with PD that we are not aware of. For example, if PD does have much freedom in developing and deciding release schedule, then Sony cannot do much. But I think GTS was something pushed from the upper management.

Yes.

Of course, GTS as a late PS3 release would have reached about 4-5m, but a new, shiny, GT6 for PS4 would have not had problems in selling on par with other mainline entries, especially considering the fact that PS4 is hugely successful. You cannot compare GT with franchises like Forza and Project Cars as, for one reason or the other, they don't have the status and reputation GT has in the genre.

Again let me be clear here. Forza 7, according to the pal charts has not sold 100K at retail here in the UK or the rest of the EU since it has NEVER registered on a chart outside of the US and UK. But GT flopped?

Between Japan, UK, Germany, and Spain GT has sold over 700K in it's launch month. Forza hasn't moved 100K in Europe yet. Surely you must see how weird this Gran Turismo Sport narrative is getting.

According to you, Forza 7 sold poorly for a litany of reasons. While GT is just a bad game.
 

Soony Xbone Uhh

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,156
Sfortunato.

I need to quote a couple of your posts just to show the contrast. While you insist GTS is a flop. When it comes to Forza a game that hasn't sold 100K yet in the UK and has never sold well enough to register on ANY EU chart. Your excuses are...






Again let me be clear here. Forza 7, according to the pal charts has not sold 100K at retail here in the UK or the rest of the EU since it has NEVER registered on a chart outside of the US and UK. But GT flopped?


Between Japan, UK, Germany, and Spain GT has sold over 700K in it's launch month. Forza hasn't moved 100K in Europe yet. Surely you must see how weird this Gran Turismo Sport narrative is getting.

According to you, Forza 7 sold poorly for a litany of reasons. While GT is just a bad game.
Where do you get that from?
Just like GTS, Forza 7 this week sold more than launch week in the UK.

TOP 10 ENTERTAINMENT SOFTWARE, WEEK ENDING 25 November 2017 01 (01) CALL OF DUTY: WWII (ACTIVISION) - 248,800 / 1,193,000 [+84%] 02 (03) FIFA 18 (EA SPORTS) - 172,900 / 1,642,900 [+237%] 03 (12) GRAN TURISMO: SPORT (SONY COMPUTER ENT.) > 100,000 [+867%] 04 (02) STAR WARS BATTLEFRONT II (EA GAMES) - 74,100 / 204,100 [-43%] 05 (06) ASSASSIN'S CREED ORIGINS (UBISOFT) 06 (15) FORZA MOTORSPORT 7 (MICROSOFT) > 45,000 [+332%] 07 (18) WOLFENSTEIN II: THE NEW COLOSSUS (BETHESDA SOFTWORKS) 08 (09) SUPER MARIO ODYSSEY (NINTENDO) 09 (23) FALLOUT 4 (BETHESDA SOFTWORKS) 10 (11) NEED FOR SPEED PAYBACK (EA GAMES)
Forza 7 is above 100k at retail in the UK.
Not as much as GTS, but still.

A flop or success is always relative. Based on expectations and based on previous installments.


Edit:
Here are the Forza Motorsport 7 weekly UK retail sales we know
Week 40: <33k
Week 41: <12k
Week 42:
Week 43:
Week 44:
Week 45:
Week 46: >10.5k
Week 47: >45k
 
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Sherbert

Member
Oct 27, 2017
299
If people think Sony expected to be cutting the price of GTS (their first GT on the hugely successful PS4) 40-60% a month after launch after investing however much money over 4+ years then they are being disingenuous at best. It is obviously well below their expectations from both a sales and revenue perspective.
 

ZhugeEX

Senior Analyst at Niko Partners
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
3,099
Let's clear something up.

GT Sport is not a flop.

To say it underperformed would be correct though. GT has been on a downward trend for a while. As has the overall racing genre in general. Games like GT and Forza will give the racing genre a boost this year.

Games like Forza Horizon and The Crew 2 are driving innovation in the genre.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,904
This is false. They might have been on sale during a limited period of course with BF, CM etc but not every game's price has been slashed like this.
So they were on sale? Okay.

Let's clear something up.

GT Sport is not a flop.

To say it underperformed would be correct though
. GT has been on a downward trend for a while. As has the overall racing genre in general. Games like GT and Forza will give the racing genre a boost this year.

Games like Forza Horizon and The Crew 2 are driving innovation in the genre.
The bold is all I have been trying to get across.

We can have a discussion on whether the sales are disappointing or not. A "flop' is out of the question though. It did not flop.
 

Karateka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,940
It's sad how far the X1 sales have fallen, I used to be a fan but this era is just pointless and the console feels bland/plain/boring as hell.

Nintendo has their main characters and bombastic ideas

Sony has a lot or great exclusives and a slick design.

Microsoft has 4K but for what? Sadly they don't have cool things to showcase it, yeah the 3Ps look great but what about the Microsoft substance? That's why the Switch made more damage to the X1 than otherwise, they hit the $189 bottom and no one still cares and it seems like X1X numbers were meh-ish. They better step up their game next era (2019 because by 2020 they will be done).

MS Black Friday was up from last year, and that's after selling 80ish k at the XB1X launch, so they still had a big November.
They can't really compare to PS4, and haven't really been able to do so for a while, but as long as the business is growing its not like they are regressing.

So no, they won't be "Done"
If they are making more money, why on Earth would they be "Done"
That's just Hyperbole.
 

OG_Thrills

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,655
Where do you get that from?
Just like GTS, Forza 7 this week sold more than launch week in the UK.


Forza 7 is above 100k at retail in the UK.
Not as much as GTS, but still.


A flop or success is always relative. Based on expectations and based on previous installments.

A flop or a success is determined by profit. In business a products development is recouped via sales. If that doesn't happen then yes, we can call any product a flop. I know Forza launched at under 33K and got a slight boost with the 1X. If it has sold over 100K it will be barely. And still the game hasn't registered anywhere outside of the UK.

Register = Sold well enough to chart on any pal chart!

We have a ton of excuses for Forza. But it's GT that is subject to denigration when we talk about success.
 

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
So they were on sale? Okay.

Yeah it happens that a game is on sale. But then the price go up after a while. That's not the price pattern of GTS.

Right now it is cheaper in amazon.co.ul than Crash, which was not sold full price, or Horizon if you want to compare it to another 1st party.

Just take a look at FIFA and how well it keeps its price steady until the next entry. GT used to sell as much as FIFA is selling nowadays.
 

Soony Xbone Uhh

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,156
A flop or a success is determined by profit. In business a products development is recouped via sales. If that doesn't happen then yes, we can call any product a flop. I know Forza launched at under 33K and got a slight boost with the 1X. If it has sold over 100K it will be barely. And still the game hasn't registered anywhere outside of the UK.

Register = Sold well enough to chart on any pal chart!

We have a ton of excuses for Forza. But it's GT that is subject to denigration when we talk about success.
Yea that is one way to determine a flop or success. But as you were talking to someone else in the first place, you should ask how he defines that.
I was just pointing out that it varies for everyone. And when it comes to profits i actually believe there is not racing game that comes even close to Forza this generation.
They have a very streamlined development process. They have a new game each year. They have successful add ons and even MTX.

About the UK sales, i edited my post.
Just the first 2 weeks after launch and the last 2 weeks are likely over 100k already. And that would not even include the Xbox One X launch week sales, or the 3 other weeks. But i won't pretend to know how much the game sold exactly over 100k. That's impossible to know (for me). Maybe we find outy when we get the yearly pal chats.


And just for the record i don't think GTS is a flop either, yet. Time will tell.
 

Karateka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,940
A flop or a success is determined by profit. In business a products development is recouped via sales. If that doesn't happen then yes, we can call any product a flop. I know Forza launched at under 33K and got a slight boost with the 1X. If it has sold over 100K it will be barely. And still the game hasn't registered anywhere outside of the UK.

Register = Sold well enough to chart on any pal chart!

We have a ton of excuses for Forza. But it's GT that is subject to denigration when we talk about success.
Mainline Forza games usually sell 2+ million not 10+ million like GT is expected to sell.
Horizon 3 sold 2.5 million and that was a big surprise success.
 

rahzel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
452
Let's clear something up.

GT Sport is not a flop.

To say it underperformed would be correct though. GT has been on a downward trend for a while. As has the overall racing genre in general. Games like GT and Forza will give the racing genre a boost this year.

Games like Forza Horizon and The Crew 2 are driving innovation in the genre.
It's a completely different genre IMHO (arcade vs sim).

The sim racing genre is dying, but on console, there is also more choice compared to before, so sales are spread a little more thin across the board. Before Forza, GT was the stand out title for racing sims on console. Then there was Forza, then Project Cars, then Assetto Corsa. Forza and GT are still the standout titles in terms of sales, but having more competition definitely does affect GT's sales.

GTS lifetime performance depends on what PD do. If they don't release another GT game until PS5 and continue to update and support GTS (which is likely to happen), then GTS could have longer legs than GT6. I believe GT6 was supported and updated, but it was released at the end of a console generation. If PD release an 'XL' edition like they did with GT5 (which is also likely to happen), that could give GTS a second wind.

But I agree, GTS is not a flop... people need to stop saying that. Yes they release games far less frequently, but they also sell far more than any other racing sim. Sure it has underperformed compared to previous GTs, but that's mostly due to the fact that the genre itself is dying off, and there is more competition. People act like the series is doomed, but the series is still selling a lot in its own right.
 
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OG_Thrills

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,655
About the UK sales, i edited my post.
Just the first 2 weeks after launch and the last 2 weeks are likely over 100k already. And that would not even include the Xbox One X launch week sales, or the 3 other weeks. But i won't pretend to know how much the game sold exactly over 100k. That's impossible to know (for me). Maybe we find outy when we get the yearly pal chats.

Forza 7 sold 33K at launch in the UK with a big drop in week 2. 100K in the UK is impossible unless we're looking at completely different numbers. You will need some numbers to back that up. If I'm wrong then I'll say so but we have Pal charts which you can use to provide proof.

Edit: I Didn't see your edit.
 
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OG_Thrills

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,655
Here are the Forza Motorsport 7 weekly UK retail sales we know
Week 40: <33k
Week 41: <12k
Week 42:
Week 43:
Week 44:
Week 45:
Week 46: >10.5k
Week 47: >45k

And has still not registered outside of the UK chart. Meanwhile with GT...


Japan is now 200k
Germany is probably > 200k
UK from last week was >250k
Spain is now 87k

Surely you can see the disparity. Surely you can see why when people suggest GT is a flop a lot of people, myself included, are left with an expression like

giphy.gif
 

Soony Xbone Uhh

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,156
Forza 7 sold 33K at launch in the UK with a big drop in week 2. 100K in the UK is impossible unless we're looking at completely different numbers. You will need some numbers to back that up. If I'm wrong then I'll say so but we have Pal charts which you can use to provide proof.
Here i already posted it:
Here are the Forza Motorsport 7 weekly UK retail sales we know
Week 40: <33k
Week 41: <12k (64% WoW drop)
Week 42:
Week 43:
Week 44: 8k< X <13k
Week 45: 12k< X <19.5K (50% WoW increase)
Week 46: >10.5k
Week 47: >45k (332% WoW increase)

Those add up to 100k already without the 4 weeks we don't have numbers for...

Edit: We actually have data for week 44 and 45, too. I added them
 
Last edited:

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Italy
It's funny that, by stating an obvious reality, I pass for the anti-GT user while I own every entry in the franchise and I never bought any other racing-sim, lol

> says the racing sim genre is declining
> denies, GTS, a racing sim, could be affected from it

I never stated nor implied what you're writing. That is, I never wrote GT wasn't impacted by the decline in popularity of the genre. I wrote a different thing---that is, GT was a trend-setter. A huge franchise. A franchise that created the trend and should not be impacted much by the decline of other franchises. Why has the genre become less popular? It might be because of a shift in consumer preferences. This is hard to change as a developer. Or it might be due to bad management decisions. For example, over-saturation.

Or we can look at actual sales posted in these threads lol
Like I said, other games wish they could sell nearly as much as GTS even at lower prices.

Other games are not GT, though. If GTAVI sells 15m copies LTD, developers will not say "Other games wish to sell nearly as much!". They will say "How could we have lost 45m+ units entry over entry?".

A game can still be successful at lower prices. GTS is not the only game whose retail price has reached such numbers, yet its one of the few who can reach such sales. Acting like the price drop means automatic bomba is just embarrassing when its revenue is high as well.

In the real world, when a game can be found for 40% of its RSP a few weeks after launch (especially under holidays) means only one thing: OVERSHIPMENT. That is, Sony and retailers thought it would have sold much more, and much faster. This didn't happen. It didn't bomb but it did underperform at least according to sellers' expectations. If you ever worked in retailing or know a little bit how retailing works this is a mere, established, fact. Just check on Camelcamelcamel GT Sports prices after launch.

Sfortunato.

I need to quote a couple of your posts just to show the contrast. While you insist GTS is a flop. When it comes to Forza a game that hasn't sold 100K yet in the UK and has never sold well enough to register on ANY EU chart. Your excuses are...


Again let me be clear here. Forza 7, according to the pal charts has not sold 100K at retail here in the UK or the rest of the EU since it has NEVER registered on a chart outside of the US and UK. But GT flopped?

Between Japan, UK, Germany, and Spain GT has sold over 700K in it's launch month. Forza hasn't moved 100K in Europe yet. Surely you must see how weird this Gran Turismo Sport narrative is getting.

According to you, Forza 7 sold poorly for a litany of reasons. While GT is just a bad game.

I think you're mixing up "excuses" with "explanations". I don't care about Forza (never owned an Xbox in my life, lol). I've just explained why Forza dropped in sales. And then I explained why, in my opinion, GT dropped in sales (bad management decisions). Point is, GT was a 11m+ seller. Forza never reached those numbers.
 

Psycho_Mantis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,965
Let's clear something up.

GT Sport is not a flop.

To say it underperformed would be correct though. GT has been on a downward trend for a while. As has the overall racing genre in general. Games like GT and Forza will give the racing genre a boost this year.

Games like Forza Horizon and The Crew 2 are driving innovation in the genre.

Exactly. Certain people on this board think with bomba or big success when judging game sales, failing to realise there is an entire numerical scale.
 

ZhugeEX

Senior Analyst at Niko Partners
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
3,099
It's a completely different genre IMHO (arcade vs sim).

But I agree, GTS is not a flop... people need to stop saying that. Yes they release games far less frequently, but they also sell far more than any other racing sim. Sure it has underperformed compared to previous GTs, but that's mostly due to the fact that the genre itself is dying off, and there is more competition. People act like the series is doomed, but the series is still selling a lot in its own right.

They still come under the racing genre. I also think it's good to include games like Horizon 3 and The Crew 2 as it shows what type of racing games are popular and which type of racing games have seen a decline in popularity. A lot of that has to do with market shifts and also how games have evolved.
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Italy
Exactly. Certain people on this board think with bomba or big success when judging game sales, failing to realise there is an entire numerical scale.

To be fair, some people were saying GT Sport was performing really well and other people just said that instead numbers weren't that great, given how much the game was overshipped and given history of the franchise. For example, I never said GT Sport was a "bomb" (only in Japan this is quite evident).
 

5Twist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
559
MS Black Friday was up from last year, and that's after selling 80ish k at the XB1X launch, so they still had a big November.
They can't really compare to PS4, and haven't really been able to do so for a while, but as long as the business is growing its not like they are regressing.

So no, they won't be "Done"
If they are making more money, why on Earth would they be "Done"
That's just Hyperbole.
The XB1 is either flat or down YOY.

PS4 + XB1 sales were 243K. The PS4 had its 2nd best BF in the UK meaning that it sold over 143K. By how much? We're not sure. That means the XB1 sold less than 100K. Last BF, it sold 93K. Because we don't know how much less than 100K the XB1 sold, we also don't know if its up, flat, or down YOY.
 

Ryng™

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,641
Italy
Holy jesus, those PS4 Black Friday sales in Spain are insane.

Switch at 30,000 is also good i would say, but i need to know, the 168K figure for all platform includes the 6,600 PS VR?
 

SnowFlakeCake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
516
GT Sport sales are a disappointment, it dropped in price very quickly. It did not bomb though, if the price dropped and no one wanted it still then that would have been a different story. But it's going to be a huge kick up the arse for PD and Sony, as in Sony will have PD work on patches to get this game up to expectations and then try make the world forget about it. Whoever decided on not calling this GT7 actually did a good job because I don't think it's a game that has damaged the brand, it's still selling well all things considered. But fuck me if GT7 does not release with a career mode and all those usual expectations of a GT game. The online save and general decisions made by PD were lol worthy. Still no other studio within touching distance of PD, fucking love GT Sport and looking forward to the upcoming update.
 

Paronth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
268
So is it possible the PS4 did close to a million last week?
The UK was over 140K, Spain 100K, Germany and France probably similar to the UK and then all the rest.

https://www.groupe-casino.fr/fr/com...ay-2017-croissance-de-80-de-volume-daffaires/

PS4 sold 10,000 consoles in France on Cdiscount alone during the Black Friday. With the console at 249€ (for comparison Xbox One bundle with Assassin's Creed origins or Rocket League cost 179€) at Micromania, owned by GameStop and largest video game seller, sales must be high.
 

v_iHuGi

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,155
https://www.groupe-casino.fr/fr/com...ay-2017-croissance-de-80-de-volume-daffaires/

PS4 sold 10,000 consoles in France on Cdiscount alone during the Black Friday. With the console at 249€ (for comparison Xbox One bundle with Assassin's Creed origins or Rocket League cost 179€) at Micromania, owned by GameStop and largest video game seller, sales must be high.

France is most likely above Spain no doubt, probably in line with UK, Germany should be much higher than those.
 

Mokubba

Member
Oct 27, 2017
467
OP
OP
Bruno MB

Bruno MB

PAL Charts Genius
Member
Oct 25, 2017
956
Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is this week's (week 48, 2017) biggest release.

Here how the previous entries performed approximately:

[Week 33, 2011] 07 (NE) XENOBLADE CHRONICLES (NINTENDO) ~ 6,000 / NEW
[Week 49, 2015] 28 (NE) XENOBLADE CHRONICLES X (NINTENDO) ~ 10,500 / NEW
 

kadotsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,505
I could see it performing worse than X physically while selling more overall because digital is of higher convenience for handhelds.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,398
MS Black Friday was up from last year, and that's after selling 80ish k at the XB1X launch, so they still had a big November.
They can't really compare to PS4, and haven't really been able to do so for a while, but as long as the business is growing its not like they are regressing.

So no, they won't be "Done"
If they are making more money, why on Earth would they be "Done"
That's just Hyperbole.
Right now I agree with you. Microsoft's latest earnings made the Xbox division actually look really big, like 10% of turnover? That's a remarkable growth that Mattrick/Spencer created. They're not going to cut that away any time soon.

Still, that's not to say there aren't some major hurdles along the way. For one, the X1 was frontloaded with a majority of sales going to the core base transitioning from 360 to 1, and one might wonder if that's still going to work next time around, how big is the core base now. Second, much of the profit growth is predicated on GaaS, and if lootboxes get regulated that might put a large dent in how much money Microsoft can make.
 

chobel

Attempting to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,493
MS Black Friday was up from last year, and that's after selling 80ish k at the XB1X launch, so they still had a big November.
They can't really compare to PS4, and haven't really been able to do so for a while, but as long as the business is growing its not like they are regressing.

So no, they won't be "Done"
If they are making more money, why on Earth would they be "Done"
That's just Hyperbole.

I don't think that's true, the BF news we have suggests that only PS4 was up YoY. MS did have a big November though.
 
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