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MarioLuigi

Banned
Jan 24, 2019
50
You're basically excusing their homophobia and transphobia because they're oppressed. Israel oppressing Palestine is not a good thing, but it's also not why they have these views, that's ridiculous. Their hate is a common feature of countries in the region that have been taken over by Islamic Fundamentalists. Let's not pretend that isn't the reason for the hate.

I'm trying to put it all in context. You can't compare the populaces' attitudes towards lgbt people in first world, free democracies to attitudes by an occupied and brutalised people. I'm not blaming Isreal for the homophobia in the West Bank, but I do blame them for creating the conditions in which it has been allowed to fester and grow. And let's not kid ourselves here, Netanyahu and the right wing in Isreal couldn't give any shits about lgbt plight, they are a useful pawn to justify their continued policies towards the palestinians.

Having views on homosexuality that are at best only about 60-70 years behind Western Europe is not a good justification to be ethnically cleansed....
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
There are plenty of recent examples too, of IDF soldiers killing children and civilian, either getting away scot free or with a slap on the wrist. And yet, a Palestinian child throwing stones, will be given far harsher sentencing....

This thread is a joke, let's excuse Isreal's brutal occupation, oppression and ethnic cleansing of a people because they treat lgbt people slightly better.

I wonder how tolerant I would be, growing up as an occupied people, routinely seeing my family members and friends exterminated, routinely seeing my homes demolished, having all my resources and land stolen. I'm pretty sure I would be pretty damn hateful too....
Palestinians killed a very good friend of mine when we were 17 (Hamas) and another girl who went to school with me when we were 19 (again, Hamas) and yet, in some magical way, I respect the LGBTQ community because one thing has nothing to do with the other. Justifying the treatment of this community by the PA and Hamas because of some anti-Israel agenda is pretty revolting.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
"harmful to the higher values and ideals of Palestinian society"
If that's Palsetinian society, I utterly despise this shit society then. But I guess it's more the government dictating that codex than society itself, isn't it? There are obviously people, part of that society, thinking differently.
 

Ensorcell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,438
I'm trying to put it all in context. You can't compare the populaces' attitudes towards lgbt people in first world, free democracies to attitudes by an occupied and brutalised people. I'm not blaming Isreal for the homophobia in the West Bank, but I do blame them for creating the conditions in which it has been allowed to fester and grow. And let's not kid ourselves here, Netanyahu and the right wing in Isreal couldn't give any shits about lgbt plight, they are a useful pawn to justify their continued policies towards the palestinians.

Sorry but the extreme homophobia in this area spans a lot farther out than the West Bank so this is a cop out excuse. Israel isn't oppressing people in the Persian Gulf region for example.
Having views on homosexuality that are at best only about 60-70 years behind Western Europe is not a good justification to be ethnically cleansed....
60-70 years is being very, very kind. In some areas we are talking about middle ages territory or even further back. Also, please stop insinuating ethnic cleansing is being advocated when criticizing what is going on there. Nobody sane is going to argue what the Palestinians are going through is justified.
 
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zer0blivion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,721
Canada
Electronic Intifada: PA rescinds ban on LGBTQ group after protests
The Palestinian Authority has rescinded a ban on a gay and transgender advocacy group that caused outrage among human rights organizations and fear among some of its members and after a huge backlash.


But rights groups say the PA must go further then withdrawing a police statement that left members of the LGBTQ rights group Al Qaws fearful for their safety.


"I didn't believe it at first. I thought it was just a rumor until I saw the statement myself," said Amir, a 21-year-old Al Qaws member from occupied Jerusalem, who preferred not to give his real name.


On 17 August, Palestinian Authority (PA) police spokesperson Louai Irzeqat issued a statement targeting Al-Qaws ("The Rainbow" in Arabic), claiming the group goes against "traditional Palestinian values" and called on citizens to report "suspicious figures attempting to provoke and harm the Palestinian social fabric."


It also accused the group of being "foreign agents."


The statement came even though Palestinian law does not consider homosexuality a crime.


"It makes all of us scared," said 23-year-old Ahmad, who also wanted to remain anonymous and is from the northern occupied West Bank. "The PA should be the ones protecting its citizens from violence, and now they are the ones who are encouraging it."


Al Qaws released a statement following the PA's announcement condemning the "use of prosecution, intimidation, and threats of arrest, be it by the police or members of society."


"We believe that the police and Palestinian society at large should focus on combatting the occupation and other forms of violence that tear apart the sensitive fabric of our society and values, instead of prosecuting activists who work tirelessly to end all forms of violence," the statement added.


According to Haneen Maikey, the director of Al Qaws, the group – which has received threatening emails and messages containing hate speech since its inception as part of a non-political Israeli LGBTQ community center in 2001 – began receiving a higher frequency of threatening and hateful messages following a protest they organized in Haifa at the start of August demanding an end to homophobia in the Palestinian community.


The protest was in response to the stabbing of a 16-year-old Palestinian teen outside of an LGBTQ shelter in Tel Aviv in July. The teen's brother is suspected of carrying out the stabbing.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
If that's Palsetinian society, I utterly despise this shit society then. But I guess it's more the government dictating that codex than society itself, isn't it? There are obviously people, part of that society, thinking differently.
Pretty much.

For example everytime I talk about Israel, I try my best to make sure that it refers to the government.
 

MarioLuigi

Banned
Jan 24, 2019
50
Palestinians killed a very good friend of mine when we were 17 (Hamas) and another girl who went to school with me when we were 19 (again, Hamas) and yet, in some magical way, I respect the LGBTQ community because one thing has nothing to do with the other. Justifying the treatment of this community by the PA and Hamas because of some anti-Israel agenda is pretty revolting.

Mate, you're the one justifying Palestinian ethnic cleansing because the PA tried to ban an LGBTQ group, which they have now rescinded.

Sorry but the extreme homophobia in this area spans a lot farther out than the West Bank so this is a cop out excuse. Israel isn't oppressing people in the Persian Gulf region for example.

60-70 years is being very, very kind. In some areas we are talking about middle ages territory or even further back. Also, please stop insinuating ethnic cleansing is being advocated when criticizing what is going on there. Nobody sane is going to argue what the Palestinians are going through is justified.

That is exactly what people are arguing, the Isreali right (which is practically all of Isreal) as well as the right wing and zionist groups in the west are trying to justify their atrocities and murders by selling the idea that "Palestinians want to kill gays so this is why we must brutally occupy and murder them".
 

MarioLuigi

Banned
Jan 24, 2019
50
Excuse me? I'm doing what?

Not really. In the last election in April the right wing parties got 51% of votes.

You're acting like an Israeli apologist.

And I stand by my statement, that the left in Israel is practically non-existent. How else would you explain Israelis voting in a far-right ethno-nationalist like Netanyahu four times to the Prime Minister position?
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
You're acting like an Israeli apologist.

And I stand by my statement, that the left in Israel is practically non-existent. How else would you explain Israelis voting in a far-right ethno-nationalist like Netanyahu four times to the Prime Minister position?
Do you even know anything about the Israeli parliamentary system? Bibi got 29% last election, the exact same amount of votes as Gantz. All the right wing parties put together got 51% (54% if you include Kulanu which I wouldn't).

In case you don't know, in 18 days there are elections because Bibi failed at building a right wing coalition.
 
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dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,624
Tel Aviv
Didn't read the whole thread, just jumping in to say: While this is fucked up - Remember that the Israeli occupation is not making the lives of LGBTQ Palestinians any easier. The IDF is blackmailing LGBTQ folks in Palestine into becoming informants and risking their lives, they condition assistance or asylum in Tel Aviv.


Do you even know anything about the Israeli parliamentary system? Bibi got 29% last election, the exact same amount of votes as Gantz. All the right wing parties put together got 51% (54% if you include Kulanu which I wouldn't).

In case you don't know, in 18 days there are elections because Bibi failed at building a right wing coalition.
Gantz is not left though. The left in Israel has about... 10-15 seats. I love the people of my country, but they have been indoctrinated into Zionism as a state ideology - and until that stops, racism and apartheid will continue to be a consensus in Israeli society.

We support them because they are white
Israel is not white. Tying Israeli racism into white supremacy is missing a lot of the nuance of the people here.
I recommend reading this excellent article by Lihi Yona: https://972mag.com/the-color-of-racism-what-many-get-wrong-about-race-relations-in-israel/136388/
EDIT: Well, thinking about it a bit more - It could be argued that one of the reasons Israeli society almost always elects white Jews is exactly to keep the appearance of the white guys in the ME, even though most of the people who live in Israel are not white. In that regard, I could agree with you.
 
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DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
Gantz is not left though. The left in Israel has about... 10-15 seats. I love the people of my country, but they have been indoctrinated into Zionism as a state ideology - and until that stops, racism and apartheid will continue to be a consensus in Israeli society.
Gantz is somewhere between, but not right-wing or Bibi supporter so it was correct regarding the post I was replying to.

Regarding the 10-15 seats, right now there are around 20 seats which are pure left, but the central parties like Kahol-Lavan are mostly central-left and they all oppose the Israeli right which was the subject of this discussion.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,624
Tel Aviv
Gantz is somewhere between, but not right-wing or Bibi supporter so it was correct regarding the post I was replying to.

Regarding the 10-15 seats, right now there are around 20 seats which are pure left, but the central parties like Kahol-Lavan are mostly central-left and they all oppose the Israeli right which was the subject of this discussion.
They opposed Netanyahu, but they don't oppose the occupation or really... Any substantial policy position of the Israeli right. Honestly, I'm not even sure Gantz would be better than Bibi as PM, considering he promised a war in Gaza if he's elected.

Regarding the Zionist left - I guess I'll take most of them more seriously if at the very least they wouldn't lose their shit any time an alliance with the Joint List is on the table...
 
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DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
They opposed Netanyahu, but they don't oppose the occupation or really... Any substantial policy position of the Israeli right. Honestly, I'm not even sure Gantz would be better than Bibi considering he promised a war in Gaza if he's elected.
You are confusing left and extreme left.

Guntz isn't promising a war in Gaza as if it's something people want, he talks about how Bibi doesn't do anything regarding violence from Hamas in the south of Israel. Don't bring here campaign talk as if it actually means anything. In 2008 Bibi talked about how he will go into Gaza and destroy Hamas if he will get elected in 2009 and look at him now, 10 years in and still scared of going into war.

Regarding the Zionist left - I guess I'll take most of them more seriously if at the very least they wouldn't lose their shit any time an alliance with the joint list is on the table...
If the Joint list didn't include Balad, it would have been easier. Not wanting to sit with Balad doesn't make them lesser left parties, even Meretz need their limits.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,624
Tel Aviv
You are confusing left and extreme left.
I'd argue you're confusing left and moderate-right. Hell, don't believe me! Gantz and Kahol-Lavan are denying that they're left, why shouldn't I believe them...?

If the Joint list didn't include Balad, it would have been easier. Not wanting to sit with Balad doesn't make them lesser left parties, even Meretz need their limits.
Oh please, in the last elections Hadash and Taal ran together - No Raam and no Balad, just the moderated Tibi and Odeh. They were still pariahs. Not sitting with Balad is a lame excuse. The minute anyone even suggests maybe collaborating the right starts chanting "It's Bibi or Tibi" and the Zionist left follows because they're spineless.
And if we get to the crux of the issue - I prefer Balad to most other parties in the Knesset by a long shot. They have their issues, but on the whole they're fine and I'd rather Meretz sit with them than with Kahol-Lavan.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
I'd argue you're confusing left and moderate-right. Hell, don't believe me! Gantz and Kahol-Lavan are denying that they're left, why shouldn't I believe them...?
You are playing naive, you know it's election time and Bibi is trying to tag them as "weak left".

Oh please, in the last elections Hadash and Taal ran together - No Raam and no Balad, just the moderated Tibi and Odeh. They were still pariahs. Not sitting with Balad is a lame excuse. The minute anyone even suggests maybe collaborating the right starts chanting "It's Bibi or Tibi" and the Zionist left follows because they're spineless.
And if we get to the crux of the issue - I prefer Balad to most other parties in the Knesset by a long shot. They have their issues, but on the whole they're fine and I'd rather Meretz sit with them than with Kahol-Lavan.
Again, elections times. You can't expect Gantz to lose all of his central and light right-wing voters. But to be honest, you liking a party which supports child killers and produces Hizballah spies more than Kahol-Lavan blows my mind.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,624
Tel Aviv
You are playing naive, you know it's election time and Bibi is trying to tag them as "weak left".
If they were left wing, they would explain why the leftist position can make this area safer for everyone - Israeli and Palestinian. Why ending the occupation is a must, as soon as possible.
But that's not what they're doing, instead they continue this game of demonising the left and saying they're right-wing and campaigning in settlements.

Again, elections times. You can't expect Gantz to lose all of his central and light right-wing voters. But to be honest, you liking a party which supports child killers and produces Hizballah spies more than Kahol-Lavan blows my mind.
He's dependant on these votes because he's right wing, that's my point.
Well, I don't think it's mind blowing to choose solidarity with Palestinians over a party that's made up of nothing, have no ideology to speak of, and is lead by someone who boasted about the amount of Palestinians killed under his watch, and is probably a war criminal.
Did you try reading the Balad platform? It's the one closest to my personal view - a democracy for all its citizen. But I do accept that there's a lot of valid criticisms against Balad, especially that they tend to represent richer Palestinians. I probably wouldn't vote for them if they weren't part of the Joint List.
 

MarioLuigi

Banned
Jan 24, 2019
50
Gantz is somewhere between, but not right-wing or Bibi supporter so it was correct regarding the post I was replying to.

Regarding the 10-15 seats, right now there are around 20 seats which are pure left, but the central parties like Kahol-Lavan are mostly central-left and they all oppose the Israeli right which was the subject of this discussion.

Lol but they don't oppose the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. I have no idea why you are pretending not to understand......
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
If they were left wing, they would explain why the leftist position can make this area safer for everyone - Israeli and Palestinian. Why ending the occupation is a must, as soon as possible.
But that's not what they're doing, instead they continue this game of demonising the left and saying they're right-wing and campaigning in settlements.
But they are not left-wing, they call themselves a central party for a reason.

He's dependant on these votes because he's right wing, that's my point.
Well, I don't think it's mind blowing to choose solidarity with Palestinians over a party that's made up of nothing, have no ideology to speak of, and is lead by someone who boasted about the amount of Palestinians killed under his watch, and is probably a war criminal.
Did you try reading the Balad platform? It's the one closest to my personal view - a democracy for all its citizen. But I do accept that there's a lot of valid criticisms against Balad, especially that they tend to represent richer Palestinians. I probably wouldn't vote for them if they weren't part of the Joint List.
Oh, no man, solidarity with the Palestinians is choosing something like Hadash or Taal, not Balad. Balad does show solidarity to Palestinians, but at the same time shows solidarity to men who bash 4-year-old girls heads to death, provide coordinates to terriest so they will be able to kill more effectively and smuggle cellphones to murderers.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,624
Tel Aviv
First - I can suggest we go to DMs since this is becoming a two person conversation and is joining the thread a bit.

Second - I'm a Hadash voter, but I still won't throw Balad under the bus. I don't think there's anything wrong with smuggling phones to political prisoners, even horrible ones. (This is a reminder that Israel keep about 400-500 prisoners without trial, without access to an attorney, sometimes for more than a year.) The Samir Kuntar thing is just the Hanin Zoabi thing all over again - dig up some old Facebook post, present parts of it without context. And it's telling that it's being done to a woman again as well... At no point did anyone in Balad support or showed admiration to Kuntar.
Azmi Bishara is no longer affiliated with the party, so I don't see how he's relevant.
 

ColorMeImpressed

Alt account
Banned
Jul 24, 2019
106
There are no good guys in this. I tend to be hard on Israel because they are the more powerful side with the greater ability to affect change, but the fact is they have both been awful.

And it's a lovely place, I have been there and met a lot of good people on both sides if the fences, but their leaders fucking suck.
 

KimiNewt

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,749
Hamas' strength is generally in Gaza. The West Bank is under the control of Fatah, which was originally communist aligned, and is today ostensibly secular and devoted social democracy.
A democracy where the Chairman has declared his term 'indefinite' and has been in it since 2005. I guess "ostensibly" is the operative word.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
I mean looking for the "good guys" in history or politics is mostly missing the point in general, I agree. It's all about following the money/power.
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,370
Tulsa, Oklahoma
I really hope both LGBT communities can find unity in these times. It's terrible how religion and politics can divide two people's that are basically brothers.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,624
Tel Aviv
I really hope both LGBT communities can find unity in these times. It's terrible how religion and politics can divide two people's that are basically brothers.
The communities are generally aligned together - The Open House and other LGBTQ organizations in Israel give asylum to a lot of Palestinians from within Israel and the west bank.

That said, 8200 - which is a big intelligence unit in the IDF, which is known to be filled with LGBT people (mostly G though), and one of their methods is to blackmail LGBTQ people in Palestine :\