Why the hell is throwing rocks at invaders who shouldn't be there some kind of justification for IDF shooting him to death?
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Palestinian child prisoner Ahed Tamimi finally released
- Thread starter Alo0oy
- Start date
That's around my age, I'd do the same if someone was invading my home too.
Killing Israeli soldiers is a perfectly valid recourse of Palestinians. They are under a colonialist occupation that enforces an Apartheid, and they can fight that occupation with arms. When the Napoleonic armies occupied my country, people would ambush them, kill them, and hang them from trees or throw them into caves. Similar arguments were made for similar measures of collective punishment, but the people pushed on. If you don't want your soldiers to die, don't use them to enforce a brutal apartheid. It's really not that hard.
happy that she's finally released, it was such an absurd news when i first heard it, someone going to prison for several months for slapping a soldier, but that's the israeli policy. an eye for a tooth. someone throws a rock at an israeli soldier and misses, that gives them the right to kill several innocent people to show them who's boss.
they're dumb anyway since they just made her a hero.
they're dumb anyway since they just made her a hero.
no you'd get a medal.
no, it's the only one in the middle east that has successfully convinced the others it's a democracy. you're not a democracy when you're an apartheid state, you occupy other people's lands, give them no rights, etc. i mean sure, for the average israeli living there i'm sure it's lovely, but it can't be considered a democracy when not everyone has equal rights.
these posts are embarrassing and disgusting
What should they do instead? Wait for international help? The UN? They're seriously fucked and the world is ignoring them.
A few things, she was not a child, she was a teenager, 16 years old. She also didn't just slap the soldier, she punched, kicked and slapped him multiple times. It's pretty easy to find the video. That said, it's still pretty fucked that they jailed her considering she barely made him flinch. I just don't think there is a need to exaggerate some of these things.
This guy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mustafa_Tamimi
Seems like it was a gas canister that hit him in the head. But this happened in 2011. Was there another Mustafa that got injured the same time around the arrest of this girl?
EDIT
I just saw Ahed's wiki page and apparently there was a 15-year-old cousin, Mohammed Tamimi who was shot in the head with a rubber bullet the same day and required a medically induced coma to recover. Mustafa was someone else.
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She is a child under every international law, including every single UN mandate/declaration. Being a child and being teenager is not mutually exclusive. And a child punching or kicking an armored soldier has exactly zero impact on the story.
I honestly don't get your post? Should I expect you to make "well actually" post every time there's a thread about a victim? Particularly an "actually" that points out completely insignificant details?
no one is exaggerating, you're trying to downplay how fucked up this arrest was.
Targeting soldiers of an occcupying force is fine, I agree with you. They act as enforcers of the system. But I wasn't talking about that. A large number of civilians have been killed and explicitly targeted in the Intifadas and I don't think those attacks are excusable.
Again, I wasnt talking about soldiers
I don't know. I just don't think violence is the answer, because it leads to the circle of counterviolence we've been seeing for decades. Israel justifying the occupation by pointing to terrorist attacks, Palestininas justifying attacks with the occupation, on and on
What a thoughtful response
You could actually read my post. I said I think what she did was brave.
I'm just trying to read up on the story, because I realized that I only know the photo of her, while the protest in their village has been going on for years. and it just isn't easy to find an unbiased account.
LIke this is an article by a Palestinian journalist who knows her family and paints them in a very positive light. https://www.newsweek.co.uk/i-watche...know-why-she-attacked-israeli-soldiers-534951
Then you have the articles in Israeli media... some are really disgusting hit pieces on the family ( like this... https://www.algemeiner.com/2017/12/28/the-deceptive-campaign-for-ahed-tamimi/). A lot of conjecture to paint them as some terrorist clan, that's why I didn't link it in my first post... but the included Facebook posts seem to be real.
And as Ahed's mother is the one who confronted the soldiers with her and posts the videos of her daughter online, I do think that it taints their protest if she sympathises with terrorists that target civilians
i don't need to put much thought replying to someone painting a "b-but both sides" picture
That second article you linked is pure propaganda, are you serious?
I said as much. Read what I wrote. I called it a disgusting hitpiece, it's just hard to find an unbiased article from the Israeli side
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but you brought it up to balance the other article you linked to, otherwise why even link it?
you're kind of taking being neutral to the situation to an extreme, saying see there's positive article about her, but also there's this [fake] article painting her to be evil. in a situation like this conflict where there's such a disparity between the power of the sides and the horrible things they do, taking a neutral position is taking the side of the oppressor (in here, israel). not every situation needs to consider both sides and get to a middle, sometime the right and wrong sides are super clear.
Israel doesn't justify the occupation because of violence. They simply don't recognise the rights of Palestinian people. If there were other measures available I'm sure they'd go for it, but there aren't. Fighting the occupying force is their only method because the UN is neutered by the US. Gaza is an open air prison. There's barely any clean water. Snipers regularly shoot children.
You say you want an unbiased source, then read international news. It's kinda telling the sources you have been reading when you call them terrorists. Were the French resistance terrorists?
calling those resisting oppression terrorists, even if it's violent resistance, shows how fucked up some people's perspective is and how normalized the oppression has become that the only acceptable reaction to the oppression and occupation for them is for the palestinian people to just shut up and take it.
a few moths ago israel killed hundreds and injured thousands. most of them were completely innocent people. what's the justified reaction to that? if you call any one resisting a terrorist, then should the entire IDF be called a terrorist organization?
that's a rhetorical question btw, IDF are terrorists.
btw i'm not supporting any palestinian movement that aims to injure and kill israeli civilians, but the selective reaction some people have to any act from the palestinian side while being completely fine with IDF butchering innocent palestinians shows a real fucked up view that the israeli life is worth more than the palestinian.
a few moths ago israel killed hundreds and injured thousands. most of them were completely innocent people. what's the justified reaction to that? if you call any one resisting a terrorist, then should the entire IDF be called a terrorist organization?
that's a rhetorical question btw, IDF are terrorists.
btw i'm not supporting any palestinian movement that aims to injure and kill israeli civilians, but the selective reaction some people have to any act from the palestinian side while being completely fine with IDF butchering innocent palestinians shows a real fucked up view that the israeli life is worth more than the palestinian.
Of course Israel does that. Not the initial occupation, but the latest wars on Gaza or tightening the checkpoint system and building border walls, it's always justified as a response to violence like the rocket attacks by Hamas or the knife Intifada
I know the situation in Gaza is terrible, as it is in the West Bank in a different way
Of course I read international news (I'm not Israeli if you think that). Just in most cases reading national news of a country can give you more information, that's why I tried to look into Israeli media, with probably not the best results
Of course the résistance weren't terrorists. They were fighting an occupying regime. Oppression should always be resisted, and the Palestinians should be able to do it. When I said terrorists I exclusively meant extremists like Hamas and suicide attackers targeting civilians
And not only the french resistance, but every single anti-colonial resistance force in the 50s, 60s, and 70s that fought against the British and French empires in Africa and the Middle East would be considered terrorists if we used that logic. And to be fair they were called terrorists at the time, but no person would call that terrorism today, they were trying to free their countries and gain independence.
The usage of non-violence terminology to appeal to people in order to justify occupation is really insidious! Violence against colonizers and occupiers should never be confused with terrorism.
I just looked it up and you are right. International law calls anyone under than 18 as a child. The reason I mentioned it was being called a child versus teenager does make a difference with respect to the emotional response someone is trying to illicit. In the medical field, it's weird to go from child to adult with no in between as a teenager/adolescent. I thought the OP was trying to play with that.
The point of my post was that if you do exagerate or minimize someone's actions, it gives room to dismiss what has happened by those that oppose you. There is no need to minimize what she did because the reprocussion were completely fucked regardless of it. She didn't just slap him, but she didnt deserve jail for her actions. Otherwise you are giving room to dismiss the points you are making.
I didn't downplay anything. I said it was fucked up. How is that downplaying? I just don't think there is a need to minimize her actions given that the situation is fucked up either way.
How common do you think that is? Did you look into it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2016_(1_bombing)
last one was in 2016, no one died (hamas didn't claim the attack)
last one that killed anyone was 10 years ago in 2008. 1 israeli died.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Gaza_border_protests
just this year israelis killed 136 (it's more now, there's been several more murders since the gaza protest) and injured 15,000.
the people claiming both sides are violent are so disingenuous it's fucking infuriating. their racism is showing.
here's the thing, the only reason hamas is considered a terrorist group and IDF is a legitimate military force is because the people responsible for putting groups on that terrorist list are america (israel's biggest supporter) and their allies. to the people of gaza, whose family members are dropping like flies hamas isn't the terrorist group, the state of israel is the terrorist state. if the shoe was on the other foot and hamas had the power and america's support, IDF would be the terrorist group.
people being so quick to jump and call hamas and palestinian resistance terrorism, just know that you've been brainwashed to believe the people being oppressed deserve it and you're trying to justify it for yourself, no one looking at the number of innocent people dying on both sides (well, one side) would ever dare call the palestinian resistance terrorism.
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This Hamas excuse doesn't hold any credibility when Israel steals more land after each war (hell, they do so without war). Every couple of months they take over more land and build a settlement over it. The fact is if Israel wanted peace then Hamas would cease to exist but the Israeli government doesn't give a damn about peace considering they are gaining from the situation.
The thing Ahed did is resistance so why were you comparing her to terrorists? Resistance Includes violence by default so don't give me that "meet them in the middle and try creating peace" shit because it is bullshit. Especially in this case.
I think you should go and read more about the situation before attempting to form an opinion because it is clear you don't know much about it.
yeah that is a clear case of someone not knowing much about a situation but assuming there's blame on both sides and trying to reach a neutral position.
It is crazy how common that line of thinking is. I also doubt that will ever change sadly.
Thanks for bringing the receipts. So let's how they'll respond now!
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as usual receipts will be ignored, until the same old tired and baseless arguments can be brought up in another thread next week.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...r-i-will-not-be-the-victim-palestinian-israel
Great article by the Guardian. She is such an inspirational person. Let's hope the corruption and cancer that is the Palestinian Authority does not spread too much and affect her.
Great article by the Guardian. She is such an inspirational person. Let's hope the corruption and cancer that is the Palestinian Authority does not spread too much and affect her.
Surprised the IDF didn't shoot her on the head, to be honest, because that seems like such an IDF thing to do, with an encouraging clap by the government too.
Yes, the way Israel continues to build settlements in the West Bank fuels the conflict and discredits the whole peace process. I merely stated that Israel uses attacks as justification (which it does), I didn't say it's a valid justification.
I wasn't trying to blame the Palestinians for the conflict. Obviously that's on Israel, from the moment the Zionist movement moved beyond founding a few scattered communes and started the process to establish an exclusively Jewish national state in a region where other people already lived
And I never compared Ahed to terrorists. I just posted what she said in her own words (and nobody piling on me her actually adressed that).
I was moved by her story and wanted to find out more. Went to the (German) Wikipedia as it's a good starting point to find sources. The article includes the information about her family. Obviously she is a child an not responsible for actions of some of her relatives, but I wanted to find out if the information is correct or an attempt to discredit her
And in the process I found the quote included in my first post in this thread. I think it's relevant, because it's from the initial video that brought her in the spotlight. And it disappointed me, because a person who I thought I could admire was calling for "stabbings and martyrdom operations" (which is a euphemism for suicide attacks, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istishhad). And I wanted to hear other opinions about it, that's all.
Probably I didn't word my post precisely enough when I said "in the last years". But that list doesn't seem to include the stabbing attacks in 2015-16 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015-2016_wave_of_violence_in_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict)
- 3 October – Lions' Gate stabbing. A man and others stabbed multiple people in the Jerusalem Old Town, killing 2 and injuring a mother and her toddler. 3 dead (including perpetrator), 2 injured.[73]
- 4 October – An attack, similar to the Lion's Gate Stabbing on 3 October, took place when an Israeli teenager was stabbed near the Damascus Gate. 1 dead (perpetrator), 1 injured.[74]
- 7 October – Israeli woman injured and pulled out of her car in a rock-throwing incident and attempted lynching near Jerusalem.
- 7 October – Israeli civilian injured in stabbing attack in Old City of Jerusalem. Assailant was shot on site.
- 7 October – IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack in Kiryat Gat in which assailant stole the soldier's weapon and was shot on site in a civilian's apartment.
- 7 October – A Palestinian woman stabbed an Israeli man, after which the man shot the assailant with his personal gun. 2 injured (including perpetrator).[75]
- 7 October – A Palestinian stabbed an IDF soldier, after which he was shot dead by special forces. 1 dead (perpetrator), 1 injured.[76]
- 8 October – Four Israeli civilians and an IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack with screwdriver in central Tel Aviv. Assailant shot on site by an officer in the Israel Air Force.
- 8 October – Israeli man, 25, seriously hurt in Jerusalem stabbing attack. The attacker was identified as 19-year-old East Jerusalem resident.[77]
- 8 October – Israeli civilian injured in stabbing attack in Kiryat Arba. Assailant shot on site.
- 8 October – Israeli civilian injured in stabbing attack in Afula. Assailant shot on site.
- 9 October – Four Israeli civilians injured in stabbing attack in Dimona. Assailant apprehended on site.
- 9 October – Teenage Israeli boy stabbed in Jerusalem. 1 injured.[78]
- 9 October – Israeli police officer injured in stabbing attack in Kiryat Arba. Assailant shot on site.
Yes, the amount of deaths and injuries is wildly disproportionate (53 israelis killed, 500+wounded vs 235 Palestinians killed, almost 4000 injured). The way Israel responds to such attacks in an indiscriminate way is terrible and will lead to the radicalization of a lot more people. But that shouldn't excuse attacks on innocent civilians.
You are deluding yourself, Hamas are still religious extremists. If they don't want to be called terrorists, they shouldn't have attacked civilians
This is my issue with the definition of terrorism. Military powers around the world murder civilians all the time, what's the difference?
no, you are. you are under the impression that the side with more power and influence has to be more "in the right".
answer this, considering how many civilian lives are lost at the hands of IDF and the state of israel, do you consider IDF a terrorist group and israel a terrorist state? or does authority and a better image that israel and its allies have created cloud your judgement so you just go to the "hamas are extremist muslim terrorists" but you can't say the same thing for the side that has killed way more innocent people?
and it's quite telling that in the wikipedia page you posted about violence from the palestinian side, these are the numbers
did you just conviniently "forget" to mention the palestinian lives lost? you only brought up the number of israelis who died (btw, you mention 53 israelis dead, can't see that number on that page). but even then a way bigger loss was imposed on palestinians, and many many more were injured. it's very difficult to read your posts and not get to the conclusion that to you an israeli life is worth more than a palestinian life.
my issue isn't with you calling hamas extremist terrorists, but it's with the fact that you only use terrorism when referring to the palestinian side of the conflict.
nothing, if you're in power, it gives you the right to label the side you're against terrorists and justify your own similar (or in case of israel, way worse) actions in the name of defending yourself from terrorism.
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I wouldn't call it a terrorist state (maybe that's the German inside me speaking, for obvious historical reasons the guarantee of Israel's existence as a state has been one of the foundations of foreign politics here.) But the occupation, the checkpoint systems, the settlements tearing into the West Bank, the wars on Gaza killing thousands, the recent nationalist laws discriminating against the Arab population are obviously terrible. Still, it's a country with 8 million inhabitants and at this point generations have grown up there and didn't choose their place of birth, so I'm no comfortable calling it a terrorist state as a whole
Anyway, I never wanted to make this thread about me, so I will probably leave this discussion for now.
I'm a history student (this is not an attempt to claim authority on the subject, I've barely touched the history of Palestine and Israel at university). And studying history tends to show you that the longer a conflict persists, the more likely each side will get their hands dirty and commit atrocities, no matter how clearly the initial blame may lie on one side. I don't know, maybe I've become too cynical and jaded
how is you being german in anyway related to the discussion? you shouldn't let your country's history have any impact on how you feel about this conflict. at this point this conflict has nothing to do with germany. if the "guarantee of israel's existence as a state" means the german people have to not blame israel for the wrong things they do because their ancestors had a part in what led to creation of the state, that makes very little sense to me.
i kinda get it now tho, for whatever reason you're simply not allowing yourself to blame israel for the situation without feeling like you also have to find some blame for the palestinian side otherwise you're being unfair. i don't agree with that approach, but there are many like you who are just scared to look at things for the way they are and not let their own history, emotions or connection to the situation interfere with their judgement
What does the fact that there are 8 million people in Israel have anything to do with Israel being a terrorist state? America has 300+ million people, and that wouldn't stop it from being a terrorist state either.
What is it exactly that's making you give the oppressor and the occupier the benefit of the doubt? Can you answer me that question truthfully? Would you be thinking the exact same way if the situation was identical but it was a completely different country, particularly in Europe?