PC Gaming ERA | July 2019 - Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of RICHAAAAAAARD!

TheTrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
369
If his conclusion is "this year has been hard to get traffic" then I don't think he is implying what you are saying he is.
He is comparing the data with the previous years if I'm not wrong, on a platform that have thousand of release every month. Let's say that a game gets released today, isn't it normal that in a year or two the traffic (And even the sales) will be vastly different on said platform, due to the release of other games (Better or worse that's not what it matters, I'm trying to look at it in a mathematic way) on the same genre?
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,452
The issue with discoverability is that in the end it is an almost zero sum game : discovering one game means you dont discover another. As the game pool increases, the likelihood of your game being picked up using those tool decreases as there are more games you compete with.

They should have done something with the Discovery Queue this sales though (as they had done in all sales before) and should look into ways to reward daily / weekly use of discovery queues.

Also the fact that most people didnt see a decrease in "Wishlist removals" after Valve put a banner that said "Please dont delete wishlists, this is how you can do it" in the wishlist page, points less towards the user removing them to get the prices and more to the user reviewing their wishlisted games during a sale being encouraged by actually going into that page.
 
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fspm

Member
Oct 27, 2017
735
Wait what, devs equating wishlist with sale? They deserve 0 sales then, go breed pigs on a farm.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,755
that's a really bad false equivalence. wishlist data is a metric developers use to anticipate and measure sales potential, they're not a sale but they're an indicator of it. multiple developers reporting their wishlist count plummeting on the sale is not a coincidence, people don't remove games based on the discount being lower than previous sales, it's just a side effect of how shitty bad is at this garbage minigames that would only be fun to a calculator, if they fucking worked

the loss on sales has also been reported by many developers over the course of last year, specially when valve quietly broke their algorithm, flatlining the wishlists and sales of many devs (which they never recovered from)

weaker sales is most likely a consequence of market saturation, games have to do a lot more to stand out when you're competing against hundreds of new games every day, which is not necessarily valve's fault cos the store operates under the rule that "everyone's welcome", but trying to say that this terrible minigame wasn't a massive fuck up that didn't cost developers (a lot of?) money is bad bad bad
Mini game impacted wishlist, if person wants to remove something from wishlist they need to go to wishlist and remove it. At that point they get all info they need, price of the game on sale. Then they have choice to remove game from the list leave game on the list or buy said game. Even if removal from the wishlist was caused by presumption that person was an idiot and didn't read the rules that are the same for past 10 years, they still had choice, they could eather buy game to remove it from wishlist (because they wanted that game and wanted to win more expensive one), or remove game if they didn't intend to buy it.

And again you ignored my point about Queue. Based on my experience I wishlisted exactly 0 new games during this sale and like 10 games during last sale by going through Queue.

So let's make small experiment, how many games any of you added to wishlist during this sale compared to last one that gave cards for going through Queue?

BTW Free game

 

TheTrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
369
that's a really bad false equivalence. wishlist data is a metric developers use to anticipate and measure sales potential, they're not a sale but they're an indicator of it. multiple developers reporting their wishlist count plummeting on the sale is not a coincidence, people don't remove games based on the discount being lower than previous sales, it's just a side effect of how shitty bad is at this garbage minigames that would only be fun to a calculator, if they fucking worked

the loss on sales has also been reported by many developers over the course of last year, specially when valve quietly broke their algorithm, flatlining the wishlists and sales of many devs (which they never recovered from)

weaker sales is most likely a consequence of market saturation, games have to do a lot more to stand out when you're competing against hundreds of new games every day, which is not necessarily valve's fault cos the store operates under the rule that "everyone's welcome", but trying to say that this terrible minigame wasn't a massive fuck up that didn't cost developers (a lot of?) money is bad bad bad


it was

like usual they made a numbers crunching monstrosity designed for wall street brokers and/or AI

even reading the instructions page made me anxious


that's assuming you've reached your whole audience in the first year and that the userbase didn't grow at all, both of which are wrong

that doesn't mean you should be selling more every year, or even the same, but what these devs are trying to surface is that the rate their sales curve is falling is not normal
I don't know what is normal related to the sales curve of videogames (I would like to see a study or something just to understand how it should work) but what you're saying it's the exact definition of a volatile market, exactly what videogames have been since their first days. (And what a lot of companies are trying to fight with the gaas approach of their games)
 

Ascheroth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,706
Pretty sure I read in some follow-up tweet of the initial "oh no the shitty metagame is killing the wishlist numbers!" tweets that games being removed from wishlists during big sales is a regular thing (with data from previous years backing that claim up) and not something new caused by this sale.

That said the metagame was horribly managed and I feel like the lack of incentive to go through discovery queues "hurt" games more than the wishlist thing.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,755
Just to be clear mini game did suck. It was boring and it didn't encourage exploring the store, and it barely encouraged purchases.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,076
The thing is, people want those games; if they were served up on a daily queue, or as a recommended game, people wishlist or just buy 'em. But Valve's recommendation engine is built for the store that Steam was half a decade ago, when it had like 80% less games or something.

I totally get why devs are frustrated with Steam's fickle nature. The algorithm chooses winners arbitrarily, when everyone could be a winner if customers only knew their game existed.
 

Catshade

Member
Oct 26, 2017
449
Yea, I think Valve needs to find a way to make people regularly use the discovery queue. Maybe give people a small amount of xp that go towards their Steam level?
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,755
The thing is, people want those games; if they were served up on a daily queue, or as a recommended game, people wishlist or just buy 'em. But Valve's recommendation engine is built for the store that Steam was half a decade ago, when it had like 80% less games or something.

I totally get why devs are frustrated with Steam's fickle nature. The algorithm chooses winners arbitrarily, when everyone could be a winner if customers only knew their game existed.
But that's the issue, how do you give equal visibility for over the 20K products on one store? Valve would need to put like 60 games on front page each day throughout whole year to achieve that.
 
OP
OP
Uzzy

Uzzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,349
FFXIV: ShadowBringers (ファイナルファンタジーXIV 漆黒の反逆者), from Square-Enix, is the latest expansion to Final Fantasy XIV's MMORPG. This MMO is different from others in that it has a heavy focus on story, so much so that many concider it the best Final Fantasy in a long time. This expac brings many new features including 2 new playable classes (Dancer, Gunbreaker), some simplification of abilities, and many quality of life features as well. For more detailed information please see the OT from Dark Knight.
Damn good stuff. I shall add this to the OP now!
 

zkylon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,625
this rx 580 thing is fucking loud. i feel like i'm gonna end up underclocking it (is that a thing?)

Mini game impacted wishlist, if person wants to remove something from wishlist they need to go to wishlist and remove it. At that point they get all info they need, price of the game on sale. Then they have choice to remove game from the list leave game on the list or buy said game. Even if removal from the wishlist was caused by presumption that person was an idiot and didn't read the rules that are the same for past 10 years, they still had choice, they could eather buy game to remove it from wishlist (because they wanted that game and wanted to win more expensive one), or remove game if they didn't intend to buy it.
it's a communication failure on valve's end, they're the ones that created the shitty minigame

also who the fuck reads the rules to any of valve's shitty minigames lol

And again you ignored my point about Queue. Based on my experience I wishlisted exactly 0 new games during this sale and like 10 games during last sale by going through Queue.

So let's make small experiment, how many games any of you added to wishlist during this sale compared to last one that gave cards for going through Queue?
few and a few, the discovery queue is so broken that i get almost nothing out of it

anyways, if it's a problem of the discovery queue element being missing from the sale, it's still valve's fuckup...

I don't know what is normal related to the sales curve of videogames (I would like to see a study or something just to understand how it should work) but what you're saying it's the exact definition of a volatile market, exactly what videogames have been since their first days. (And what a lot of companies are trying to fight with the gaas approach of their games)
what we're seeing is a market being saturated, and capitalism at work making what was for a few years a blooming market of new ideas a cutthroat zero sum game

devs are right to complain about their livelihoods being in danger because every year it gets harder, and while that's just the nature of the business it would be nice if valve didn't also make their lives more difficult
 

zkylon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,625
Wait what, devs equating wishlist with sale? They deserve 0 sales then, go breed pigs on a farm.
let's all remember wishlist numbers, like review numbers and whatnot, are important cogs in the algorithm that lead to higher discoverability

they're not equating wishlist numbers with sales, they're deriving sales projections from them (based on previous data) and also hoping wishlist numbers will favor them with the machine running the whole thing
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,076
But that's the issue, how do you give equal visibility for over the 20K products on one store? Valve would need to put like 60 games on front page each day throughout whole year to achieve that.
A smarter recommendation algorithm would be a start. It doesn't matter if a game has the same tags--what customers need to know is whether it's actually similar to what you're playing. If every recommendation was relevant to the consumer's interests it would cut out a lot of the dead weight.

But the first step is cutting out low-effort games from the ecosystem. They only serve to clog everything up. So, a human curation pass for every single game approved to the store--and not the current "hey a human looked at this, we swear" thing they have going on right now.

And I'm hoping they don't actually go through with the "curator store" thing that's been, I dunno, hinted at for years? It would only compound this problem of visible games getting boosted, and invisible ones being buried.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,452
A smarter recommendation algorithm would be a start. It doesn't matter if a game has the same tags--what customers need to know is whether it's actually similar to what you're playing. If every recommendation was relevant to the consumer's interests it would cut out a lot of the dead weight.
The recommendation algorithm works pretty well for me, with ca. 2 wishlist per queue. Of course it could be improved, but it is probably the best one I have tried.

But the first step is cutting out low-effort games from the ecosystem. They only serve to clog everything up. So, a human curation pass for every single game approved to the store--and not the current "hey a human looked at this, we swear" thing they have going on right now.
We go back to the whole problem of: "what is a low-effort game". A game can look and play like a low-effort game for you but not be a low-effort game at all. There is also the fact that the system by itself is quite decent right now on not showing the "trash".

And I'm hoping they don't actually go through with the "curator store" thing that's been, I dunno, hinted at for years? It would only compound this problem of visible games getting boosted, and invisible ones being buried.
Dunno, if they improved the curator mechanism, allowing for better interaction with the store and more engagement, it would be a better way to boast games and improve visibility of more niche / smaller games. You can already feel that if you follow some good niche curators, where smaller games get more recommendations. they just need to make them a better part of the store and better encourage you to follow them

About "invisible games", the sad truth is that nowadays you cannot expect to launch your game in any store (be it PSN, eShop, or GOG) without doing anything before and expect 100% success. There are just simply too many good quality games that buries them.
 

Hektor

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,962
Deutschland
I totally get why devs are frustrated with Steam's fickle nature. The algorithm chooses winners arbitrarily, when everyone could be a winner if customers only knew their game existed.
There is no world in which everyone could be a winner and the Algorithm isn't any less arbitrary than any other "solution" to the Problem.
Is manual curation less abritrary? Is valve picking games for a monthly Steam Direct Marketing video less arbitrary?
It's not possible for everyone to know every game, there is a limited, total amount of currency (visibility/mindshare/attention, you name it) in the market and every time an actor obtains more of this currency, it does so by taking it from others, this is quite literally called platformcapitalism.

Pretty much every success in this industry (or any industry really) is completely arbitrary because meritocracies don't exist, and while i totally share the desire to have one, expecting a videogame storefront to suddenly solve this thousand year old question of inequality is... silly.
 

Wok

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
2,015
France
One big thing that was missing from this sale that absolutely nobody mentioned is getting cards for going through Queue each day.
The gem market has not recovered. The first bump in price was on the day of the leak that there would be no sale trading card.



Before the sales, I could buy sacks of gems for 0.19€, because there was 50% more quantity for sale.



This is truly the worst thing about the summer sales this year.
 

zkylon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,625
The gem market has not recovered. The first bump in price was on the day of the leak that there would be no sale trading card.



Before the sales, I could buy sacks of gems for 0.19€, because there was 50% more quantity for sale.



This is truly the worst thing about the summer sales this year.
wait the fuck gems still exist
 

spineduke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,725
Seems premature to put that article out without getting any metrics from Valve. Guess Grayson isn't interested in doing actual journalism.
 
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Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,380
Steam’s message to users to stop deleting wishlists did not make any significant difference in the rate of our deletions
Pretty much confirms users actually wanted to delete from wishlist and not because they didn't understand rules.

And with effect being there previous years too.

Maybe problem is with the game and not valve...

That is not there is no pricier with discovery, but if they wishlisted, they already had discovered, but interest doesn't last forever. Even big AAA games are being forgotten quickly.
 

fspm

Member
Oct 27, 2017
735
Yea, I think Valve needs to find a way to make people regularly use the discovery queue. Maybe give people a small amount of xp that go towards their Steam level?
No thanks, the only good thing about this sale was absence of queue. When you get a card there is no choice - have to go through that crap.
let's all remember wishlist numbers, like review numbers and whatnot, are important cogs in the algorithm that lead to higher discoverability

they're not equating wishlist numbers with sales, they're deriving sales projections from them (based on previous data) and also hoping wishlist numbers will favor them with the machine running the whole thing
Review rating is an indicator of outright trash for user, 3.5 - bye without looking, 9.5 - oh another pubg clone, bye - gave it 30 seconds.
Wishlists are completely different. The thing I don't get is why everyone expects a storefront to do the marketing for somebody's shitty game. The only reason valve are doing it at all is because they get the cut and they know if cod is featured they'll get more $$ than featuring bad rats -> so if you make stuff like bad rats figure out how to advertise the game yourself, just like in any other buy/sell business. For example running those brain damaging commercials on tv 24/7 which costs a lot of $$ by the way.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,368
Belarus
So, my final Steam sale haul:

SOULCALIBUR VI Deluxe Edition
Rad Raygun
Masked and Mysterious
PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER 2019 Standard Edition
DARK SOULS: REMASTERED
Rayman Legends
Rayman Origins
The Cave
John Wick Chronicles
3D Ultra Mini Golf Adventures
Undead Legions II - Store
Sudden Strike Gold
Windlands
Sea Dogs: Caribbean Tales
The Royal Marines Commando
Sea Dogs: City of Abandoned Ships
Lethis - Path of Progress
Skyhill
NBA 2K19
Rock, the Tree Hugger
Interplay Solitaire
Freaky Awesome
Planet Explorers
Sword Art Online: Hollow Realization Deluxe Edition
The Moment of Silence
Halo: Spartan Strike
Stick it to The Man!
Audiosurf 2
FINAL FANTASY XIII
Total War: WARHAMMER
Drox Operative
Mosaics Galore 2
DOOM Eternal

Overall outside confusing as hell event game, it was not a bad sale, tons of cheap old games I wanted to get for a long time like Rayman games and some stuff I was eyeing to play right away like SC6. Also got DOOM Eternal preorder because of sale discount coupons and the fact that I might not have free money in November to get it, and I know for sure that I'm going to play this game on launch because Doom 2016 was my GOTY.
 

kafiend

Member
Oct 25, 2017
206
let's all remember wishlist numbers, like review numbers and whatnot, are important cogs in the algorithm that lead to higher discoverability

they're not equating wishlist numbers with sales, they're deriving sales projections from them (based on previous data) and also hoping wishlist numbers will favor them with the machine running the whole thing
This so much.

Also I deleted loads off my wishlist but mainly I used "Added on" as my tool for deleting. If it's been there since 2014 then I am highly unlikely to ever buy it so it just got deleted.
Valve did push me to my wishlist though, so it is their fault I had a reason to go there and do something with it in the first place.

There is also the problem with the wishlist where I can't actually see what kind of game I am looking at because I hover my mouse over the picture and just get a series of screenshots. Sometimes the screenshots the dev has provided are ????? and tell me nothing, take a look at Salt and Sanctuary for example. Why isn't there a pop up box with the game description?
 

Wok

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
2,015
France
Nobody reacted after my post about Psychonauts 2. What is your interpretation, eonden? Why would Double Fine suddenly stop preorders of Psychonauts 2 on fig, a year before the release (if the game is actually released in 2020, which is yet to be seen)? It does not make much sense to me. Maybe it is because Double Fine was bought by Microsoft? Or maybe it is linked to the Shenmue 3 fiasco, with Valve tightening the grip on key generation for companies on the verge of abusing it?

The thing I don't get is why everyone expects a storefront to do the marketing for somebody's shitty game.
I don't get it either, but ex-Valve employee now indie game dev Chet seems to think otherwise.


Unless I once again don't get the point of his cryptic tweets, Chet believes stores do not have a sustainable business model if:
  1. they do not do the marketing for indie devs,
  2. they do not take a sufficient cut to do this marketing job,
  3. and that there is a "platform bubble" similar to the "dotcom bubble".
What I get from that is that he believes EGS will crash:
  • either because it is not sustainable with a 12% cut,
  • or because it is bad at marketing indie games with its current cut.
What are gems used for and why are they so good?
For games with expensive cards, it can be cheaper to craft booster packs if you want the badge.
 
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BlueOdin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,908
I don't get it either, but ex-Valve employee now indie game dev Chet seems to think otherwise.


Unless I once again don't get the point of his cryptic tweets, Chet believes stores do not have a sustainable business model if:
  1. they do not do the marketing for indie devs,
  2. they do not take a sufficient cut to do this marketing job,
  3. and that there is a "platform bubble" similar to the "dotcom bubble".
What I get from that is that he believes EGS will crash either because it is not sustainable with a 12% cut, or because it is bad at marketing games.
I think he is more talking about getting more people to the platform/storefront thus expanding the number of people potentially buying his game.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,452
Nobody reacted after my post about Psychonauts 2. What is your interpretation, eonden? Why would Double Fine suddenly stop preorders of Psychonauts 2 on fig, a year before the release (if the game is actually released in 2020, which is yet to be seen)? It does not make much sense to me. Maybe it is because Double Fine was bought by Microsoft? Or maybe it is linked to the Shenmue 3 fiasco, with Valve tightening the grip on key generation for companies on the verge of abusing it?
Maybe after the purchase by MS they changed their Fig approach (as it also affected "investors on the game" which is a main difference with kickstarter), and decided to stop selling the game for now.

I am not sure about Vlave tightening the grip on key generation, and even less that they would do that with a game published by MS. The end solution of the Shenmue fiasco is also what everyone who knows Steam knew it would end up being.
About key generation. wWe have also not heard any reports about that, nor any change happening after Phoenix Point fiasco (despite what Tim tries to tell us).

I don't get it either, but ex-Valve employee now indie game dev Chet seems to think otherwise.


Unless I once again don't get the point of his cryptic tweets, Chet believes stores do not have a sustainable business model if:
  1. they do not do the marketing for indie devs,
  2. they do not take a sufficient cut to do this marketing job,
  3. and that there is a "platform bubble" similar to the "dotcom bubble".
What I get from that is that he believes EGS will crash:
  • either because it is not sustainable with a 12% cut,
  • or because it is bad at marketing indie games with its current cut.
Steam does a lot of marketing for indie devs in most cases (with a big chunk of their clicks coming from internal Steam flow). Main problem was that this sales they didnt incentivise the main activity that generated more internal clicks during previous sales. As I said before, they really need to have more methods to incentivize using of discovery tools even outside of sales (and improve the curator mechanism as currently it is half baked). I also want to see how the Event/Calendar update to Steam will work.
The newer discovery queues seem interesting but also are a bit messy to operate.

I am not sure that there is a platform bubble (well maybe with EGS, but that is more about them entering by crashing their revenues to try and form a dominant position), but rather a suppy bubble, where too many indie games are competing for a limited amount of people interest.

Edit: also, join discord.
 

spineduke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,725
Nobody reacted after my post about Psychonauts 2. What is your interpretation, eonden? Why would Double Fine suddenly stop preorders of Psychonauts 2 on fig, a year before the release (if the game is actually released in 2020, which is yet to be seen)? It does not make much sense to me. Maybe it is because Double Fine was bought by Microsoft? Or maybe it is linked to the Shenmue 3 fiasco, with Valve tightening the grip on key generation for companies on the verge of abusing it?
I mean, the Microsoft acquisition of the company should speak for itself. I don't think they'll have to worry about funding any time soon.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,452

Shenmue 3 screwing backers keeps on giving.

In happier news:

Godhood out in EA.


Also, it seems more and more devs are starting to use the stream functionality of Steam.
 

Wok

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
2,015
France
Main problem was that this sales they didnt incentivise the main activity that generated more internal clicks during previous sales. As I said before, they really need to have more methods to incentivize using of discovery tools even outside of sales (and improve the curator mechanism as currently it is half baked).
True. If I look at my curator page, the peak of views on the first day of the summer sales is similar to last year's.
The main difference is that there are fewer views during the rest of the sales, because people do not use the discovery tools without any monetary incentive.

 
Oct 25, 2017
8,993
California

Looks like Hamster Corp is still chugging along with Windows 10 ports of their ACA NeoGeo releases.

And yet still nothing from the on Steam besides their Castlevania and Contra collections.

I just might have to bite the bullet for Karnov's Revenge, Galaxy Fight, and Waku Waku 7.
 

Annubis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,082
I think part of the lower traffic this sale is due to FF14.
I know people that have been playing the shit out of it since it came out and pretty much nothing else.
Like that's pretty much all they do.
 

JaseC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,007
Western Australia
I mean, the Microsoft acquisition of the company should speak for itself. I don't think they'll have to worry about funding any time soon.
Yeah, I think one of two things happened: either DF sort of forgot about the slacker backer campaign and realised after it received its first post-buyout payment that it couldn't in good conscience keep the campaign open or the call was more Microsoft's as it's preparing to flip the switch on digital pre-orders.

Whatever the reason, it definitely wasn't Valve saying "Hey! No more keys!".
 

zkylon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,625
Review rating is an indicator of outright trash for user, 3.5 - bye without looking, 9.5 - oh another pubg clone, bye - gave it 30 seconds.
Wishlists are completely different. The thing I don't get is why everyone expects a storefront to do the marketing for somebody's shitty game. The only reason valve are doing it at all is because they get the cut and they know if cod is featured they'll get more $$ than featuring bad rats -> so if you make stuff like bad rats figure out how to advertise the game yourself, just like in any other buy/sell business. For example running those brain damaging commercials on tv 24/7 which costs a lot of $$ by the way.
this is a poor appreciation of what's discussed here, and also a very biased and unfortunate way of putting it

nobody is asking valve to market their games for them, they're principally asking valve to stop being stupid and screwing them over

devs are in a business relationship with valve and are very much within their rights to negotiate/demand better conditions if they feel they're being treated unfairly. in this modern youtube world i'd say indie devs specially (and specially smaller indie devs) are in almost a worker-employer position with valve, but this is a discussion for another day

in any case, asking indie devs to "run brain damaging commercials on tv 24/7" when clearly valve fucked up (and not even to devs, this event was a disaster for everyone) is dumb and you should stop looking at things that way. Gamers are so bent on stanning for steam over this epic store bullshit that they're starting to develop an adversarial relationship with gamedevs, and specially with struggling gamedevs that are who deserve most support. they're not "shitty games", they just don't have the $$ to run the marketing campaigns you're demanding of them, and they're seeing their livelihood threatened by valve being oblivious to the destructive whims of their own algorithm

It can be done, but if your temps aren't awful just adjust the fan curve so the fan spins at a more reasonable rpm until the GPU is hot AF.
hmm i'm pretty sure everything in this computer gets really hot. i've changed coolers and cooling paste and whatnot many times but it doesn't seem to make any difference, so i'm just assuming that any day it'll just blow up haha
 

Chairmanchuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,089
China
in any case, asking indie devs to "run brain damaging commercials on tv 24/7" when clearly valve fucked up (and not even to devs, this event was a disaster for everyone) is dumb and you should stop looking at things that way.
Other indie devs chimed in that discussion who have been on Steam for years and said the deletion of wishlist items happens all the time during sales on Steam, because thats when people actually check out their wishlists and remove games from there.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,452
this is a poor appreciation of what's discussed here, and also a very biased and unfortunate way of putting it

nobody is asking valve to market their games for them, they're principally asking valve to stop being stupid and screwing them over

devs are in a business relationship with valve and are very much within their rights to negotiate/demand better conditions if they feel they're being treated unfairly. in this modern youtube world i'd say indie devs specially (and specially smaller indie devs) are in almost a worker-employer position with valve, but this is a discussion for another day
Valve needs to be more open about what they do, true.

in any case, asking indie devs to "run brain damaging commercials on tv 24/7" when clearly valve fucked up (and not even to devs, this event was a disaster for everyone) is dumb and you should stop looking at things that way. Gamers are so bent on stanning for steam over this epic store bullshit that they're starting to develop an adversarial relationship with gamedevs, and specially with struggling gamedevs that are who deserve most support. they're not "shitty games", they just don't have the $$ to run the marketing campaigns you're demanding of them, and they're seeing their livelihood threatened by valve being oblivious to the destructive whims of their own algorithm
Pretty sure Valve is not oblivious to the "destructive whims of their own algorithm", the truth is that there is just so many customer growth and many more games being published and the rope is going to break on one point. There is no way to serve all the struggling gamedevs in the world without damaging other gamedevs, which is the reason why some gamedevs report the algorithm changes kills them while others do not notice anything (or see better numbers). This is nearly a zero sum game and, given the explosion on game supply, it is just not possible to have everything be succesful just for being on a Store (same with Switch nowadays, were the situation is not as rosy as one year ago).

That Steam does not support devs is also annoyingly also taken as a fact when they offer the best discoverability tools on the industry and allow you to easily access and publish your game there, some of the main reasons that has lead to more people being able to publish games. Steam is also continuously improving and listening to devs despite what they think. What indies want is always the same: that they are the ones that are noticed, not caring about the other games, which goes against the other indies.

On the part of "gamers stanning for steam hard", you also avoid to mention how most of the indie community just go on a daily "fuck customers, who cares about them" whenever they have any issue with us. The adversarial relationship is not only on the side of the people buying the game, as much as both the media and the devs want to blame it on us.
I do feel bad for indie developers, but we had reached a point were the customer and the developer media bubble (who they talk with and who they trust) has been separated for a while, creating a bigger distance into what the dev and customer goals are, and it is hard for some people to care for other people that only think of them as a walking wallet.
 

Stallion Free

Member
Oct 29, 2017
129
I feel like devs are rarely concerned about other devs so why are customers and Valve taking all of the heat here for the treatment of devs?

Perfect example is the “fuck you, got mine” attitude with getting on the Epic store.
 

zkylon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,625
Pretty sure Valve is not oblivious to the "destructive whims of their own algorithm", the truth is that there is just so many customer growth and many more games being published and the rope is going to break on one point. There is no way to serve all the struggling gamedevs in the world without damaging other gamedevs, which is the reason why some gamedevs report the algorithm changes kills them while others do not notice anything (or see better numbers). This is nearly a zero sum game and, given the explosion on game supply, it is just not possible to have everything be succesful just for being on a Store (same with Switch nowadays, were the situation is not as rosy as one year ago).
i don't think anyone excepts "everything being successful", devs are mostly frustrated with their livelihood being tied to an unpredictable black box that can silently ruin them overnight

That Steam does not support devs is also annoyingly also taken as a fact when they offer the best discoverability tools on the industry and allow you to easily access and publish your game there, some of the main reasons that has lead to more people being able to publish games. Steam is also continuously improving and listening to devs despite what they think. What indies want is always the same: that they are the ones that are noticed, not caring about the other games, which goes against the other indies.
ehhhhhh that's not quite it. indies want to be noticed for sure, the rest you just made up...

and i didn't say valve doesn't support devs or doesn't offer a good toolset, i'm saying devs are within their rights to ask better of valve, just like users like you or me when we see valve do a poop

On the part of "gamers stanning for steam hard", you also avoid to mention how most of the indie community just go on a daily "fuck customers, who cares about them" whenever they have any issue with us. The adversarial relationship is not only on the side of the people buying the game, as much as both the media and the devs want to blame it on us.
I do feel bad for indie developers, but we had reached a point were the customer and the developer media bubble (who they talk with and who they trust) has been separated for a while, creating a bigger distance into what the dev and customer goals are, and it is hard for some people to care for other people that only think of them as a walking wallet.
ehh i don't think devs say "fuck customers" unless customers are being fucky
 
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