If his conclusion is "this year has been hard to get traffic" then I don't think he is implying what you are saying he is.
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PC Gaming ERA | July 2019 - Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of RICHAAAAAAARD!
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He is comparing the data with the previous years if I'm not wrong, on a platform that have thousand of release every month. Let's say that a game gets released today, isn't it normal that in a year or two the traffic (And even the sales) will be vastly different on said platform, due to the release of other games (Better or worse that's not what it matters, I'm trying to look at it in a mathematic way) on the same genre?
The issue with discoverability is that in the end it is an almost zero sum game : discovering one game means you dont discover another. As the game pool increases, the likelihood of your game being picked up using those tool decreases as there are more games you compete with.
They should have done something with the Discovery Queue this sales though (as they had done in all sales before) and should look into ways to reward daily / weekly use of discovery queues.
Also the fact that most people didnt see a decrease in "Wishlist removals" after Valve put a banner that said "Please dont delete wishlists, this is how you can do it" in the wishlist page, points less towards the user removing them to get the prices and more to the user reviewing their wishlisted games during a sale being encouraged by actually going into that page.
They should have done something with the Discovery Queue this sales though (as they had done in all sales before) and should look into ways to reward daily / weekly use of discovery queues.
Also the fact that most people didnt see a decrease in "Wishlist removals" after Valve put a banner that said "Please dont delete wishlists, this is how you can do it" in the wishlist page, points less towards the user removing them to get the prices and more to the user reviewing their wishlisted games during a sale being encouraged by actually going into that page.
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Mini game impacted wishlist, if person wants to remove something from wishlist they need to go to wishlist and remove it. At that point they get all info they need, price of the game on sale. Then they have choice to remove game from the list leave game on the list or buy said game. Even if removal from the wishlist was caused by presumption that person was an idiot and didn't read the rules that are the same for past 10 years, they still had choice, they could eather buy game to remove it from wishlist (because they wanted that game and wanted to win more expensive one), or remove game if they didn't intend to buy it.
And again you ignored my point about Queue. Based on my experience I wishlisted exactly 0 new games during this sale and like 10 games during last sale by going through Queue.
So let's make small experiment, how many games any of you added to wishlist during this sale compared to last one that gave cards for going through Queue?
BTW Free game
I don't know what is normal related to the sales curve of videogames (I would like to see a study or something just to understand how it should work) but what you're saying it's the exact definition of a volatile market, exactly what videogames have been since their first days. (And what a lot of companies are trying to fight with the gaas approach of their games)
Pretty sure I read in some follow-up tweet of the initial "oh no the shitty metagame is killing the wishlist numbers!" tweets that games being removed from wishlists during big sales is a regular thing (with data from previous years backing that claim up) and not something new caused by this sale.
That said the metagame was horribly managed and I feel like the lack of incentive to go through discovery queues "hurt" games more than the wishlist thing.
That said the metagame was horribly managed and I feel like the lack of incentive to go through discovery queues "hurt" games more than the wishlist thing.
The thing is, people want those games; if they were served up on a daily queue, or as a recommended game, people wishlist or just buy 'em. But Valve's recommendation engine is built for the store that Steam was half a decade ago, when it had like 80% less games or something.
I totally get why devs are frustrated with Steam's fickle nature. The algorithm chooses winners arbitrarily, when everyone could be a winner if customers only knew their game existed.
I totally get why devs are frustrated with Steam's fickle nature. The algorithm chooses winners arbitrarily, when everyone could be a winner if customers only knew their game existed.
But that's the issue, how do you give equal visibility for over the 20K products on one store? Valve would need to put like 60 games on front page each day throughout whole year to achieve that.
this rx 580 thing is fucking loud. i feel like i'm gonna end up underclocking it (is that a thing?)
also who the fuck reads the rules to any of valve's shitty minigames lol
anyways, if it's a problem of the discovery queue element being missing from the sale, it's still valve's fuckup...
devs are right to complain about their livelihoods being in danger because every year it gets harder, and while that's just the nature of the business it would be nice if valve didn't also make their lives more difficult
it's a communication failure on valve's end, they're the ones that created the shitty minigame
also who the fuck reads the rules to any of valve's shitty minigames lol
few and a few, the discovery queue is so broken that i get almost nothing out of it
anyways, if it's a problem of the discovery queue element being missing from the sale, it's still valve's fuckup...
what we're seeing is a market being saturated, and capitalism at work making what was for a few years a blooming market of new ideas a cutthroat zero sum game
devs are right to complain about their livelihoods being in danger because every year it gets harder, and while that's just the nature of the business it would be nice if valve didn't also make their lives more difficult
let's all remember wishlist numbers, like review numbers and whatnot, are important cogs in the algorithm that lead to higher discoverability
they're not equating wishlist numbers with sales, they're deriving sales projections from them (based on previous data) and also hoping wishlist numbers will favor them with the machine running the whole thing
A smarter recommendation algorithm would be a start. It doesn't matter if a game has the same tags--what customers need to know is whether it's actually similar to what you're playing. If every recommendation was relevant to the consumer's interests it would cut out a lot of the dead weight.
But the first step is cutting out low-effort games from the ecosystem. They only serve to clog everything up. So, a human curation pass for every single game approved to the store--and not the current "hey a human looked at this, we swear" thing they have going on right now.
And I'm hoping they don't actually go through with the "curator store" thing that's been, I dunno, hinted at for years? It would only compound this problem of visible games getting boosted, and invisible ones being buried.
The recommendation algorithm works pretty well for me, with ca. 2 wishlist per queue. Of course it could be improved, but it is probably the best one I have tried.
We go back to the whole problem of: "what is a low-effort game". A game can look and play like a low-effort game for you but not be a low-effort game at all. There is also the fact that the system by itself is quite decent right now on not showing the "trash".
Dunno, if they improved the curator mechanism, allowing for better interaction with the store and more engagement, it would be a better way to boast games and improve visibility of more niche / smaller games. You can already feel that if you follow some good niche curators, where smaller games get more recommendations. they just need to make them a better part of the store and better encourage you to follow them
About "invisible games", the sad truth is that nowadays you cannot expect to launch your game in any store (be it PSN, eShop, or GOG) without doing anything before and expect 100% success. There are just simply too many good quality games that buries them.
There is no world in which everyone could be a winner and the Algorithm isn't any less arbitrary than any other "solution" to the Problem.
Is manual curation less abritrary? Is valve picking games for a monthly Steam Direct Marketing video less arbitrary?
It's not possible for everyone to know every game, there is a limited, total amount of currency (visibility/mindshare/attention, you name it) in the market and every time an actor obtains more of this currency, it does so by taking it from others, this is quite literally called platformcapitalism.
Pretty much every success in this industry (or any industry really) is completely arbitrary because meritocracies don't exist, and while i totally share the desire to have one, expecting a videogame storefront to suddenly solve this thousand year old question of inequality is... silly.
The gem market has not recovered. The first bump in price was on the day of the leak that there would be no sale trading card.
Before the sales, I could buy sacks of gems for 0.19€, because there was 50% more quantity for sale.
This is truly the worst thing about the summer sales this year.
wait the fuck gems still existThe gem market has not recovered. The first bump in price was on the day of the leak that there would be no sale trading card.
Before the sales, I could buy sacks of gems for 0.19€, because there was 50% more quantity for sale.
This is truly the worst thing about the summer sales this year.
Aww I didn't know that about it :/
I'll give it a bit more time to see if it'll ramp up but if not I'll be dropping it :(
I am also playing those games solo since none of my friends would touch those games. I think it's fine solo, make sure to switch classes frm time to time and try out new weapons etc.
I didn't understand it and didn't participate because of it.
Only bought 1 game in the sale.
Pretty much confirms users actually wanted to delete from wishlist and not because they didn't understand rules.
And with effect being there previous years too.
Maybe problem is with the game and not valve...
That is not there is no pricier with discovery, but if they wishlisted, they already had discovered, but interest doesn't last forever. Even big AAA games are being forgotten quickly.
No thanks, the only good thing about this sale was absence of queue. When you get a card there is no choice - have to go through that crap.
Review rating is an indicator of outright trash for user, 3.5 - bye without looking, 9.5 - oh another pubg clone, bye - gave it 30 seconds.
Wishlists are completely different. The thing I don't get is why everyone expects a storefront to do the marketing for somebody's shitty game. The only reason valve are doing it at all is because they get the cut and they know if cod is featured they'll get more $$ than featuring bad rats -> so if you make stuff like bad rats figure out how to advertise the game yourself, just like in any other buy/sell business. For example running those brain damaging commercials on tv 24/7 which costs a lot of $$ by the way.
So, my final Steam sale haul:
SOULCALIBUR VI Deluxe Edition
Rad Raygun
Masked and Mysterious
PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER 2019 Standard Edition
DARK SOULS: REMASTERED
Rayman Legends
Rayman Origins
The Cave
John Wick Chronicles
3D Ultra Mini Golf Adventures
Undead Legions II - Store
Sudden Strike Gold
Windlands
Sea Dogs: Caribbean Tales
The Royal Marines Commando
Sea Dogs: City of Abandoned Ships
Lethis - Path of Progress
Skyhill
NBA 2K19
Rock, the Tree Hugger
Interplay Solitaire
Freaky Awesome
Planet Explorers
Sword Art Online: Hollow Realization Deluxe Edition
The Moment of Silence
Halo: Spartan Strike
Stick it to The Man!
Audiosurf 2
FINAL FANTASY XIII
Total War: WARHAMMER
Drox Operative
Mosaics Galore 2
DOOM Eternal
Overall outside confusing as hell event game, it was not a bad sale, tons of cheap old games I wanted to get for a long time like Rayman games and some stuff I was eyeing to play right away like SC6. Also got DOOM Eternal preorder because of sale discount coupons and the fact that I might not have free money in November to get it, and I know for sure that I'm going to play this game on launch because Doom 2016 was my GOTY.
SOULCALIBUR VI Deluxe Edition
Rad Raygun
Masked and Mysterious
PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER 2019 Standard Edition
DARK SOULS: REMASTERED
Rayman Legends
Rayman Origins
The Cave
John Wick Chronicles
3D Ultra Mini Golf Adventures
Undead Legions II - Store
Sudden Strike Gold
Windlands
Sea Dogs: Caribbean Tales
The Royal Marines Commando
Sea Dogs: City of Abandoned Ships
Lethis - Path of Progress
Skyhill
NBA 2K19
Rock, the Tree Hugger
Interplay Solitaire
Freaky Awesome
Planet Explorers
Sword Art Online: Hollow Realization Deluxe Edition
The Moment of Silence
Halo: Spartan Strike
Stick it to The Man!
Audiosurf 2
FINAL FANTASY XIII
Total War: WARHAMMER
Drox Operative
Mosaics Galore 2
DOOM Eternal
Overall outside confusing as hell event game, it was not a bad sale, tons of cheap old games I wanted to get for a long time like Rayman games and some stuff I was eyeing to play right away like SC6. Also got DOOM Eternal preorder because of sale discount coupons and the fact that I might not have free money in November to get it, and I know for sure that I'm going to play this game on launch because Doom 2016 was my GOTY.
It can be done, but if your temps aren't awful just adjust the fan curve so the fan spins at a more reasonable rpm until the GPU is hot AF.
This so much.
Also I deleted loads off my wishlist but mainly I used "Added on" as my tool for deleting. If it's been there since 2014 then I am highly unlikely to ever buy it so it just got deleted.
Valve did push me to my wishlist though, so it is their fault I had a reason to go there and do something with it in the first place.
There is also the problem with the wishlist where I can't actually see what kind of game I am looking at because I hover my mouse over the picture and just get a series of screenshots. Sometimes the screenshots the dev has provided are ????? and tell me nothing, take a look at Salt and Sanctuary for example. Why isn't there a pop up box with the game description?
You can transform gems into card packs of any game you want (different games have different convertion values).
Nobody reacted after my post about Psychonauts 2. What is your interpretation, eonden? Why would Double Fine suddenly stop preorders of Psychonauts 2 on fig, a year before the release (if the game is actually released in 2020, which is yet to be seen)? It does not make much sense to me. Maybe it is because Double Fine was bought by Microsoft? Or maybe it is linked to the Shenmue 3 fiasco, with Valve tightening the grip on key generation for companies on the verge of abusing it?
I don't get it either, but ex-Valve employee now indie game dev Chet seems to think otherwise.
Unless I once again don't get the point of his cryptic tweets, Chet believes stores do not have a sustainable business model if:
For games with expensive cards, it can be cheaper to craft booster packs if you want the badge.
I don't get it either, but ex-Valve employee now indie game dev Chet seems to think otherwise.
Unless I once again don't get the point of his cryptic tweets, Chet believes stores do not have a sustainable business model if:
- they do not do the marketing for indie devs,
- they do not take a sufficient cut to do this marketing job,
- and that there is a "platform bubble" similar to the "dotcom bubble".
- either because it is not sustainable with a 12% cut,
- or because it is bad at marketing indie games with its current cut.
For games with expensive cards, it can be cheaper to craft booster packs if you want the badge.
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I think he is more talking about getting more people to the platform/storefront thus expanding the number of people potentially buying his game.
Like eonden said. You can transform the gems into booster packs, that you can sell for a higher price on the market and make some pocket change.
Lets say you buy a gem pack for 15cent, but you can craft boosters that you can sell for 30 cents.
Maybe after the purchase by MS they changed their Fig approach (as it also affected "investors on the game" which is a main difference with kickstarter), and decided to stop selling the game for now.
I am not sure about Vlave tightening the grip on key generation, and even less that they would do that with a game published by MS. The end solution of the Shenmue fiasco is also what everyone who knows Steam knew it would end up being.
About key generation. wWe have also not heard any reports about that, nor any change happening after Phoenix Point fiasco (despite what Tim tries to tell us).
Steam does a lot of marketing for indie devs in most cases (with a big chunk of their clicks coming from internal Steam flow). Main problem was that this sales they didnt incentivise the main activity that generated more internal clicks during previous sales. As I said before, they really need to have more methods to incentivize using of discovery tools even outside of sales (and improve the curator mechanism as currently it is half baked). I also want to see how the Event/Calendar update to Steam will work.
The newer discovery queues seem interesting but also are a bit messy to operate.
I am not sure that there is a platform bubble (well maybe with EGS, but that is more about them entering by crashing their revenues to try and form a dominant position), but rather a suppy bubble, where too many indie games are competing for a limited amount of people interest.
Edit: also, join discord.
I mean, the Microsoft acquisition of the company should speak for itself. I don't think they'll have to worry about funding any time soon.
True. If I look at my curator page, the peak of views on the first day of the summer sales is similar to last year's.
The main difference is that there are fewer views during the rest of the sales, because people do not use the discovery tools without any monetary incentive.
Looks like Hamster Corp is still chugging along with Windows 10 ports of their ACA NeoGeo releases.
And yet still nothing from the on Steam besides their Castlevania and Contra collections.
I just might have to bite the bullet for Karnov's Revenge, Galaxy Fight, and Waku Waku 7.
Yeah, I think one of two things happened: either DF sort of forgot about the slacker backer campaign and realised after it received its first post-buyout payment that it couldn't in good conscience keep the campaign open or the call was more Microsoft's as it's preparing to flip the switch on digital pre-orders.
Whatever the reason, it definitely wasn't Valve saying "Hey! No more keys!".
this is a poor appreciation of what's discussed here, and also a very biased and unfortunate way of putting it
nobody is asking valve to market their games for them, they're principally asking valve to stop being stupid and screwing them over
devs are in a business relationship with valve and are very much within their rights to negotiate/demand better conditions if they feel they're being treated unfairly. in this modern youtube world i'd say indie devs specially (and specially smaller indie devs) are in almost a worker-employer position with valve, but this is a discussion for another day
in any case, asking indie devs to "run brain damaging commercials on tv 24/7" when clearly valve fucked up (and not even to devs, this event was a disaster for everyone) is dumb and you should stop looking at things that way. Gamers are so bent on stanning for steam over this epic store bullshit that they're starting to develop an adversarial relationship with gamedevs, and specially with struggling gamedevs that are who deserve most support. they're not "shitty games", they just don't have the $$ to run the marketing campaigns you're demanding of them, and they're seeing their livelihood threatened by valve being oblivious to the destructive whims of their own algorithm
hmm i'm pretty sure everything in this computer gets really hot. i've changed coolers and cooling paste and whatnot many times but it doesn't seem to make any difference, so i'm just assuming that any day it'll just blow up haha
Other indie devs chimed in that discussion who have been on Steam for years and said the deletion of wishlist items happens all the time during sales on Steam, because thats when people actually check out their wishlists and remove games from there.
Valve needs to be more open about what they do, true.
Pretty sure Valve is not oblivious to the "destructive whims of their own algorithm", the truth is that there is just so many customer growth and many more games being published and the rope is going to break on one point. There is no way to serve all the struggling gamedevs in the world without damaging other gamedevs, which is the reason why some gamedevs report the algorithm changes kills them while others do not notice anything (or see better numbers). This is nearly a zero sum game and, given the explosion on game supply, it is just not possible to have everything be succesful just for being on a Store (same with Switch nowadays, were the situation is not as rosy as one year ago).
That Steam does not support devs is also annoyingly also taken as a fact when they offer the best discoverability tools on the industry and allow you to easily access and publish your game there, some of the main reasons that has lead to more people being able to publish games. Steam is also continuously improving and listening to devs despite what they think. What indies want is always the same: that they are the ones that are noticed, not caring about the other games, which goes against the other indies.
On the part of "gamers stanning for steam hard", you also avoid to mention how most of the indie community just go on a daily "fuck customers, who cares about them" whenever they have any issue with us. The adversarial relationship is not only on the side of the people buying the game, as much as both the media and the devs want to blame it on us.
I do feel bad for indie developers, but we had reached a point were the customer and the developer media bubble (who they talk with and who they trust) has been separated for a while, creating a bigger distance into what the dev and customer goals are, and it is hard for some people to care for other people that only think of them as a walking wallet.
I feel like devs are rarely concerned about other devs so why are customers and Valve taking all of the heat here for the treatment of devs?
Perfect example is the "fuck you, got mine" attitude with getting on the Epic store.
Perfect example is the "fuck you, got mine" attitude with getting on the Epic store.
I hear you. All the drama over it almost makes me want to just go and wipe the whole thing clean. Don't even really use it anyway, I know what I want to play.
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