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PC Racing Sims |OT|

TJP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
Earth :)
Those non-fluent in Russian may need to run this via Google Translate, but SMS has seemingly been purchased by Mail.ru Group/Modern Pick...


Discuss?
That's VERY interesting. I had heard Russians were 'chasing' the SMS CEO some time ago (hence the move to Singapore) and it appears the person was spot on, at least regarding the nationality of the investor.

Good on SMS if true! Ian Bell took EA's money and that turned out to be a great success financially for SMS and we got 4 fun to play releases in the Shift and pCARS series.
 

Branson

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,667
I think i need a "eat crow" moment in here. I´ve tried iRacing in 2016, felt like it was an overrated POS, didn´t really get why it had so much success.

Now in 2019 with a good PC and a good wheel i tried the game once again and holy shit, i´m loving it!

I had some of the best races online in the last few days, and i think the game really shines on the Fanatec hardware. FFB is very good, it is one of the things i didn´t noticed when i tried the game in 2016 with a G25.

As a Nascar fan, the game is a must. I still think the business model sucks, tech wise the game is very dated, but it more than makes up for the actual online racing.

Sometimes i tend to defend games like Pcars2 for their sim value, but in the end of the day people are probably right when they say that there a few things that only games like iRacing, AMS and rFactor can provide. I will try the other two once again in the future and i will probably change my mind on them as well.

There is no such thing as having one racing sim for all of your needs, so i guess i need to get used to having a specific sim for a specific series and/or cars.
It’s literally the only good modern nascar and INDYCAR sim out right now. Once Ai releases I’m not going to play anything else for a while.
 

Seattle6418

Member
Oct 25, 2017
104
Brasília Brazil
It’s literally the only good modern nascar and INDYCAR sim out right now. Once Ai releases I’m not going to play anything else for a while.
True, and i haven´t even messed with Indycar. I thought Indy was done properly on Pcars2, but not the ovals. iRacing is the only one i´ve played so far who has done oval racing right.

I´m having a hard time in the lower rankings. Last night i got punted off the track twice by reckless drivers, and my rating was way lower afterwards. One little gripe i have so far is that their safety rating goes down even if you have nothing to do with the crash, it´s pretty unfair.

Only safe way to climb that i´ve found is to score the pole, and win leading every lap, which is not that easy to do.
 

Branson

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,667
True, and i haven´t even messed with Indycar. I thought Indy was done properly on Pcars2, but not the ovals. iRacing is the only one i´ve played so far who has done oval racing right.

I´m having a hard time in the lower rankings. Last night i got punted off the track twice by reckless drivers, and my rating was way lower afterwards. One little gripe i have so far is that their safety rating goes down even if you have nothing to do with the crash, it´s pretty unfair.

Only safe way to climb that i´ve found is to score the pole, and win leading every lap, which is not that easy to do.
Yeah they never updated the INDYCAR on PCars2 I don’t think so it’s the old version.

Anyway once you get out of the lower and rookie classes it gets better. The Trucks are hit and miss and Xfinity And Cup cars are better. You’re still gonna have your bad races in those too though
 

marvelharvey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
773
Osaka, Japan
I´m having a hard time in the lower rankings. Last night i got punted off the track twice by reckless drivers, and my rating was way lower afterwards. One little gripe i have so far is that their safety rating goes down even if you have nothing to do with the crash, it´s pretty unfair.
I wish there was an option in iRacing to hide iRating/SR. I worry so much about the numbers that I barely 'race', giving everyone room, never defending... it kinda ruined iRacing for me and I don't think I've raced yet in 2019.

rFactor 2 on the other hand, with no numbers whatsoever, sees me fighting tooth and nail for ever cm of track (at least when I can find a race, usually when new content drops) and I love it. When S397's competition system drops later this summer, it'll ruin it for me. Hopefully I can turn the numbers off in the new UI.
iRacing was broadcast on national TV in the US for the first time last night, super authentic presentation (aside from the dude who forgot to turn Discord sounds off!)

Replay is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Peq0aB-CFqE

Unfortunately they've cut out the commercials for the YouTube version. :(
Great to see sim racing get national TV coverage outside of GamesMaster!
 

Betta Lines

Member
Oct 25, 2017
139
I wish there was an option in iRacing to hide iRating/SR. I worry so much about the numbers that I barely 'race', giving everyone room, never defending... it kinda ruined iRacing for me and I don't think I've raced yet in 2019.
You don't have to look at them... ;)

Just try to drive clean, and aim for top 5 finishes. It's hard to see tanking numbers particularly in a bad spell of races, but you're getting valuable seat time. As long as you review each performance to find out where to improve, your iR and SR will naturally rise up.
 

TJP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
Earth :)
rFactor 2 on the other hand, with no numbers whatsoever, sees me fighting tooth and nail for ever cm of track (at least when I can find a race, usually when new content drops) and I love it. When S397's competition system drops later this summer, it'll ruin it for me.
I can't wait for the UI overhaul to finally get here.

Also, it's hard to believe that rF2 has the second best visuals behind pCARS 2. I've been mucking about with mods in pC2 again (the available car mods work just fine) and comparing each sim and rF2 is well ahead visually of ACC, AC and R3E.

I ran a 21 AI GT3 car event at Silverstone starting in a storm at night & ending in light rain at with time at x60 - with everything at max, level 5 AA and ultra post processing. I had a 2fps drop at the start of the race (I was in 22nd place). S397 have worked wonders with rF2 regarding it's performance and once they start on mutli threaded performance, it should see even more improvement.
 

Dave_6

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,017
I hope part of the UI overhaul includes saving the settings for each car I drive. I hate having to change the FFB multiplier each and every time I drive a car.

I recorded that iRacing broadcast but forgot to watch it, so glad there is a YT link! That is so cool.
 

*Guaraná

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,828
i love simracing, i've been on iracing nonstop since 2014 but I barely race because I suffer from anxiety and I'm so afraid of losing irating and safety rating that just cant race anymore.

The worst part is that I'm not a bad driver at all, on practices I have a lot of fun, live last week when I battled for a couple of laps with two brothers on a mazda-mx5 practice session and hate a lot of fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irTEJ0LtQd8

but during races I just cant have fun anymore due to being afraid of having a bad race that will bring down my amazing 2000 irating points.

sometimes i hate myself... =/
 
Oct 25, 2017
913
Germany
I can't wait for the UI overhaul to finally get here.

Also, it's hard to believe that rF2 has the second best visuals behind pCARS 2. I've been mucking about with mods in pC2 again (the available car mods work just fine) and comparing each sim and rF2 is well ahead visually of ACC, AC and R3E.
I don't know, for me the exposure in rF2 ruins it. I even prefer AMS1 graphics at the moment (they have a good warm sunset). In bright daylight rF2 is too harsh-bright and shadows are brutal dark, contrast is extreeeme. Track reflection when the sun is low is also too extreme. During sunset (my absolute favorite ToD in any sim that offers it without mods) it's hard to see the track, it's that dark by then already, also the "golden hour" is not golden, it's sepia-brown and not even really red in the sky.
If they fixed the exposure or at least gave a gamma and contrast slider that would help quite a bit already.

For comparison..
left: rF2 original ; right: Gamma adjusted (same gamma value 1.5 for both examples)


 

Seattle6418

Member
Oct 25, 2017
104
Brasília Brazil
I wish there was an option in iRacing to hide iRating/SR. I worry so much about the numbers that I barely 'race', giving everyone room, never defending... it kinda ruined iRacing for me and I don't think I've raced yet in 2019.

rFactor 2 on the other hand, with no numbers whatsoever, sees me fighting tooth and nail for ever cm of track (at least when I can find a race, usually when new content drops) and I love it. When S397's competition system drops later this summer, it'll ruin it for me. Hopefully I can turn the numbers off in the new UI.
Great to see sim racing get national TV coverage outside of GamesMaster!
I´ve always had a problem with this. I never trust people who are behind me to drive responsibly. I start driving looking in the rear view mirror and i always think next corner is the corner this guy will try a stupid overtake attempt.

As for rFactor2, i have to give it another go now with the proper wheel and PC. I´ll wait for the new UI, because the current one is absolutely horrible.
 

Mutagenic

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,011
The biggest problem I’ve had, whether it’s IMSA, VRS or iLMS is that I do my very best to slow down well ahead of turns on lap one due to the huge amount of traffic, and there are always people who brake late in an attempt to overtake within this traffic and it leads to all kinds of trouble. Or when people crash or run off the track early but feel like because they qualified quicker, they deserve an easy path back to their original position and feel anyone attempting to battle them at the back of the pack is blasphemous. A couple weeks ago at Spa, I was crashed out of three straight races within the first two laps, despite racing cautiously. Luckily I attempted a fourth race and battled for P2 the entire race. He pitted a few laps after me, and when he did pit he made it out of the pits .5 seconds ahead. He had a poor exit out of turn 1 on the last lap and I was able to pass and never relinquished the position. It was an amazing experience and we were quick to praise each other afterwards.

As far as graphics go, I would put iRacing up against any of the other sims. I can run the game at 5120x1440 on my 120hz monitor and maintain 120fps, even with 63 other cars visible on screen. It’s absurd, really. Performance and fidelity are paramount to a racing experience.
 

Seattle6418

Member
Oct 25, 2017
104
Brasília Brazil
I´ve been out of the loop for almost two years, are we still doing time trials/races that kind of stuff? It seems like people are all over the place right now, it seems like one game in particular is not getting concentrated attention.

ACC has been a letdown for me so far.
 
Oct 25, 2017
913
Germany
I´ve been out of the loop for almost two years, are we still doing time trials/races that kind of stuff? It seems like people are all over the place right now, it seems like one game in particular is not getting concentrated attention.

ACC has been a letdown for me so far.
I'd vote for doing that in AMS2 again.
If you have DiRT Rally 2.0 there is a miny league in the DR2 thread. I only did the second event (the fourth(?) should be open now) and without practice, but it seemed like there was someone to compete again at almost any driving level. It was fun. I would have kept going, but I didn't have a monitor for sim racing in the last 2 weeks.

Edit: But before AMS2, feel free to organize iRacing time trials on here if that was what you were aiming for. Personally I was thinking about buying some iRacing months when their Ai releases.
 
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TJP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
Earth :)
I don't know, for me the exposure in rF2 ruins it. I even prefer AMS1 graphics at the moment (they have a good warm sunset). In bright daylight rF2 is too harsh-bright and shadows are brutal dark, contrast is extreeeme. Track reflection when the sun is low is also too extreme. During sunset (my absolute favorite ToD in any sim that offers it without mods) it's hard to see the track, it's that dark by then already, also the "golden hour" is not golden, it's sepia-brown and not even really red in the sky.
If they fixed the exposure or at least gave a gamma and contrast slider that would help quite a bit already.​
We've come at this from different place :) I was referring to the actual graphic fidelity as well as the material quality, shaders etc.​
rF2 has come a long way since S397 took over and the improvements are very clearly visable in the car and track models, IBL, new shaders, resource usage/demands and general polish. rF2 is quite probably behind the Madness, Turn10's Forza and Codemasters EGO graphics engines in regards to the required hardware to obtain great visuals and a consistent 60fps however rF2 is a long way ahead of Kunos' implementation of UE4.​
Milestone's use of UE4 for the MotoGP series is far better than Kunos' ACC - MotoGP simply looks better and runs better. I presume MotoGP not featuring real time weather and ToD changes helps performance.​
Regarding colours, I'm using an IPS Dell Ultrasharp monitor and whilst not being a 'gaming' montor, it offers fantastic colour accuracy for the money. pCARS and ACC appear less game-y than rF2 and R3E. rF2 does need a slider for contrast and gamma however the track artists think the rF2 visuals are pretty accurate.​
 

marvelharvey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
773
Osaka, Japan
You don't have to look at them... ;)
And alcoholics don't have to drink ;) I'm addicted to data.
I can't wait for the UI overhaul to finally get here.
Soon™
i love simracing, i've been on iracing nonstop since 2014 but I barely race because I suffer from anxiety and I'm so afraid of losing irating and safety rating that just cant race anymore.
Yup. This is me. I had a few good races in a row, reached the giddying heights of 2500ish points, thought "I'll never do better than this" and promptly quit lol.
 
Oct 25, 2017
913
Germany
We've come at this from different place :) I was referring to the actual graphic fidelity as well as the material quality, shaders etc.​

rF2 has come a long way since S397 took over and the improvements are very clearly visable in the car and track models, IBL, new shaders, resource usage/demands and general polish. rF2 is quite probably behind the Madness, Turn10's Forza and Codemasters EGO graphics engines in regards to the required hardware to obtain great visuals and a consistent 60fps however rF2 is a long way ahead of Kunos' implementation of UE4.​

Milestone's use of UE4 for the MotoGP series is far better than Kunos' ACC - MotoGP simply looks better and runs better. I presume MotoGP not featuring real time weather and ToD changes helps performance.​

Regarding colours, I'm using an IPS Dell Ultrasharp monitor and whilst not being a 'gaming' montor, it offers fantastic colour accuracy for the money. pCARS and ACC appear less game-y than rF2 and R3E. rF2 does need a slider for contrast and gamma however the track artists think the rF2 visuals are pretty accurate.​
I agree with everything here. And I agree with rF2's artist that the track and trackside object modeling is... well, I'm no expert but it is very much good enough for me. The engine provides good sharpness and as a non-VR person, I don't really have performance gripes with it. It's a lot of post-processing fine tuning like exposure, gamma-adjustment, color accuracy (cloudless sunny noon looks very cold-blue, sunset is brown'ish). Then there is stuff like cloud formations, DoF-effects and haze that needs improvements.
Look at this shot:


It's pretty impressive how much visual realism the loss in contrast for objects farther away can add. rF2 has this effect too, but it's very subtle, starts at distances that already have a lot of depth-of-field effect to it and then usually goes hand in hand with a ton of cold-blue toning for whatever reason:
 
Oct 25, 2017
913
Germany
I've been reading the rF2 forums and there are threads where people complain of a blue tint applied to the graphics.

This might be of use: https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/reshade-bettercolors-lut-rf2.23879/ although there are more on RD to try. Expect a 10% loss in performance.
Pretty cool! Thanks.
I used reshade on AC once, don't remember it to be so hard on the performance, 10% sounds harsh for saturation pp. It's probably worth it for me though.
 

TJP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
Earth :)
Pretty cool! Thanks.
I used reshade on AC once, don't remember it to be so hard on the performance, 10% sounds harsh for saturation pp. It's probably worth it for me though.
There are several reshade uploads on RD; I selected the most downloaded 8)

The 10% performance loss figure came from another person's findings and not my own findings.
 

Seattle6418

Member
Oct 25, 2017
104
Brasília Brazil
Jimmy's thoughts on iRacing:
Thanks, i´ll watch later on tonight. One of the things that impressed me the most getting to know iRacing better is how professional and passionate the fan base is.

I guess that´s where the "looking down on other sims" comes from.

I mean, there´s a regular iRacing seminar, people developing and selling apps for it, just a few examples of how hardcore the community is. I still have only 25-30 races in, but i´m excited about the possibilities down the road once i start racing in the upper levels.
 
Oct 25, 2017
913
Germany
I just saw the new video from Reiza, comparison between AMS1 and 2 in the Ultima GTR at Snetterton:

*deep breath* I don't know man. Obviously it's impossible to judge anything from this non-hooning driving, but if I had to be my money on how the new physics will feel, my money would sadly be on "it will feel a lot like Project CARS 2".

And the sound... idk. The AMS1 sound always was a bit high-pitched gruntless, but the AMS2 sound is now just as lo-fi as PC2's sound.
 

omegasc

Member
Sep 12, 2018
80
Yeah, a little disappointed with AMS2 but hoping that it will get better. I can see some improvements already, but it does not look all that better... mostly it looks different. Maybe I set my expectations too high?

As for rF2: McLaren Senna GTR is cool, hopefully free due to WFG2. The issues on the 24hs race seem to have shaken them a little regarding bugs. Looks like, little by little, 'oddities' or 'quirks' were piling up and they stacked too high and everything fell apart in the event. So... there's a bight side to that, after all.
 

marvelharvey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
773
Osaka, Japan
I just saw the new video from Reiza, comparison between AMS1 and 2 in the Ultima GTR at Snetterton:

*deep breath* I don't know man. Obviously it's impossible to judge anything from this non-hooning driving, but if I had to be my money on how the new physics will feel, my money would sadly be on "it will feel a lot like Project CARS 2".

And the sound... idk. The AMS1 sound always was a bit high-pitched gruntless, but the AMS2 sound is now just as lo-fi as PC2's sound.
If this were a year+ away, I wouldn't be too worried, but it's what? 4 months from release? But if anyone can do get things right, Reiza can!
Hmm, I was expecting an all singing and dancing "UI and Nordschleife coming next week!" announcement this month. My spidey senses were wrong. I wonder if they're now saving it for the Expo.
 

TJP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
Earth :)
Either gMotor 2.0 is pretty solid using Reiza's custom shaders or their use of the Madness engine needs more time because that was a semi flaccid video for AMS 2.

I'd like to see an AMS 2 day-night video in a storm conditions that change to clear that really highlights the benefits of what SMS graphics engine can do.

At least it's not the blur-a-thon that is ACC (outside of the stunning replays).
 

DrPenguin

Member
Aug 12, 2018
97
After 15 months with my TMX I took the plunge yesterday and ordered the TS-PC Racer and 599 Evo wheel. Now to (im)patiently wait on the shipping!
 

DrPenguin

Member
Aug 12, 2018
97
TylerDurden4321 Thanks, glad to hear good things about the Evo. I'm not looking forward to the gloves part, I'm really sensitive about things that compromise my feel on the wheel/pedals and it takes me a while to adjust and get comfortable. When I used to work in garages I had to take my driving shoes to work with me as I wasn't comfortable driving standards in work boots haha.
 
Oct 25, 2017
913
Germany
TylerDurden4321 Thanks, glad to hear good things about the Evo. I'm not looking forward to the gloves part, I'm really sensitive about things that compromise my feel on the wheel/pedals and it takes me a while to adjust and get comfortable. When I used to work in garages I had to take my driving shoes to work with me as I wasn't comfortable driving standards in work boots haha.
I can buy child-size karting gloves with my small hands, but I think Mascot had some cheap-and-good glove advice quite some time ago (maybe back at NeoGAF still), don't remember what it was though.
 

Dijital_Majik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
196
Haha, I have tiny hands too. The gloves I'm going to use are a womens medium. They fit well and are fairly thin, so hopefully I can adjust quickly.
Great choice on the 599 evo rim, I love mine.

Agree with TylerDurden4321 on gloves, you won't even notice them after a short while. I started with cheap full length ebay karting gloves, and when they wore out I went to shorter mountain biking gloves (like these), which was a good move as the former were too warm honestly with forearm coverage.

I also recently moved from socks to thin sole slip-ons after hurting my feet on a hard loadcell for far too long, and was honestly not looking forward to the loss in sensitivity, but as with gloves, they've become second nature, and definitely improved my braking, so I wouldn't worry about gearing up.
 

Mascot

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,491
I can buy child-size karting gloves with my small hands, but I think Mascot had some cheap-and-good glove advice quite some time ago (maybe back at NeoGAF still), don't remember what it was though.
PU-palmed thin work gloves are what I recommended, with a few fingertips cut off if you prefer. The thin rubber palms give excellent grip and feel. One pair will last a year or more, and they are super-cheap, like a quid a pair.

 
Oct 25, 2017
913
Germany
Great choice on the 599 evo rim, I love mine.

Agree with TylerDurden4321 on gloves, you won't even notice them after a short while. I started with cheap full length ebay karting gloves, and when they wore out I went to shorter mountain biking gloves (like these), which was a good move as the former were too warm honestly with forearm coverage.
I had looked into mountain biking gloves too, but they always had crappy palm padding. Yours look pretty good though. They're far from my size though. Height-wise I'm between Massa and Alonso and my "men's" glove size would relate to XXS. OMP is the only racing glove maker that has my size at all I think.

Shoe-wise, I started with shoes with a thin sole, but now I'm mostly bare-feet (but my feet are more used to it, I even do garden and repair work outside bare-feet). Maybe thin-sole racing shoes and a harder load-cell setting would make me faster, but at the moment I like my brake medium stiff.

On a weak to medium pedal, I absolutely believe that wearing no-shoes makes you better and I'm in good company... have you guys seen this video? One of my Top5 favorite driving videos (it's from RUF's test driver back in the 80s/90s edit: you can see that he's in socks when the camera shows the shifting):
 
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TJP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
Earth :)
Although I no longer test for Sector 3, it shits me to tears when armchair experts hail one release a sim and another a simcade. The armchair expert is usual exposed as someone who is talking out their arse and has zero seat time in the cars they opine as being accurate and true to real world. The same can be said for tyre models.​
A recent thread on the S3 forums came to my attention where the OP asks for opinions on R3E and it's validity as a simulation. Of course opinions vary based on people's percetions and no real world seat time...one guys craps on R3E and is asked by the lead physics dev to explain his opinons and he can't.​
Turns out he is a massive ACC/Kunos fan who constantly posts about how much better ACC is which is his right however he cannot back up his claims.​
This is what I find hilarous about the sim racing community in general - people post their expect opinions when in fact they are largly baseless claims to know how a tyre works or how car x feels at speed etc. I can imagine the response to Jo or Joe Public telling an airforce pilot fighter sim X is true to life when said airforce pilot flies the real thing! Nicki Thimm often responds ALL sims are often good fun but no replacement for the actual cars and yet I see his opinions shot down because he acts like a loon in his videos.​
Alex H, Sector 3's physics guru, on the other hand knows his stuff and explains how he derives the physics for R3E:​
As far as I'm aware, we are the only studio which is owned and operated by a suspension manufacturer with which we have a free flow of information.
Therefore our damper and suspension knowledge base is the best in the industry, bar none. Also, prior to joining Sector 3 I worked full time in real motorsport where I racked up on average 75,000km a year on racing circuits, for 8 years.​
Prior to that I spent several seasons racing cars in various UK series after spending 9 years racing karts, which i started with when I was 10. I also bagged a degree in Motorsport Engineering in the middle of all that.​
I hope I don't sound arrogant, but there are several reasons as to why I was asked to be here, but nothing happens instantly.​
Just wanted to put it out there..I never post on the accuracy of tyre models or physics calculations as I expect the dev's to get things right or as close to as they can.​
 

Dijital_Majik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
196
I had looked into mountain biking gloves too, but they always had crappy palm padding. Yours look pretty good though. They're far from my size though. Height-wise I'm between Massa and Alonso and my "men's" glove size would relate to XXS. OMP is the only racing glove maker that has my size at all I think.

Shoe-wise, I started with shoes with a thin sole, but now I'm mostly bare-feet (but my feet are more used to it, I even do garden and repair work outside bare-feet). Maybe thin-sole racing shoes and a harder load-cell setting would make me faster, but at the moment I like my brake medium stiff.

On a weak to medium pedal, I absolutely believe that wearing no-shoes makes you better and I'm in good company... have you guys seen this video? One of my Top5 favorite driving videos (it's from RUF's test driver back in the 80s/90s edit: you can see that he's in socks when the camera shows the shifting):
I feel you on glove sizing issues, I have long fingers so most gloves are uncomfortable for me if I go by the usual measurement of palm size, so it's always a pain to figure out.

Love that video, have seen it a million times along with Faszination! I agree that barefoot definitely gives more feel on a normal pedal, I can't even drive a real car in any of the boots I own. I just have about a 1cm travel on my homemade loadcell though, hence slip-ons. If I had a set of clubsports or heusinkvelds where travel is (or can be) higher, I might not bother.

Although I no longer test for Sector 3, it shits me to tears when armchair experts hail one release a sim and another a simcade. The armchair expert is usual exposed as someone who is talking out their arse and has zero seat time in the cars they opine as being accurate and true to real world. The same can be said for tyre models.​
(I'm going to preface this with saying that I've never driven R3E, and yet understand that Alex (I think?) is the man when it comes to sorting out the cars; nor have any real gripes with any sim I do drive, and almost always enjoy what I'm given)

I think it comes down to how people feel a car should behave. The vast majority of us have no experience in a race car, so it all comes down to perception. On one hand, we have no basis for telling a dev/maker with hard data about physics, but on the other, as you said even Thiim says there's no comparison to real life. I know from personal experience, for example, that spirited driving in something like a sim 488, aventador or 911 doesn't yield the insane corner grip I feel in real life versions of those cars. Is it tyre model? or physics? or just a limitation of ffb/lack of sensation or feel? I couldn't tell you, and have to go on (and enjoy) what devs provide. Objectively, devs can get things wrong as well. This is easiest seen (heard?) in the sound department, where sterile recordings often don't match up to the environments we drive in.

The question then, is do we go for an entirely data driven model that doesn't 100% match up to a real car according to drivers, an entirely 'artistic' approach, or somewhere in between?
I say this, because the first example (as devil's advocate) that I thought of was the first release of URD's GT500. I know they aren't going with nearly as much detailed info as someone like Kunos, but boy was that first release a mess. I've never driven a real GT500, but even I know that it needed much, much more grip to look/feel like what I see in videos of the real cars. Thankfully they finally 'fixed' it.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that I agree that people moaning and nitpicking about physics to those who have hard data and first hand experience (such as Alex) in these things is silly. However, I don't believe we can fully exclude 'feel' or perception, as subjective as that might be. After all, as much as we want to be pretend race drivers in a fully accurate simulation, they are just computer games meant for fun. I've never driven a 2019 F1 car, GT1, or an LMP1, but they feel how I imagine they probably would, and that's good enough for me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
913
Germany
Although I no longer test for Sector 3, it shits me to tears when armchair experts hail one release a sim and another a simcade. The armchair expert is usual exposed as someone who is talking out their arse and has zero seat time in the cars they opine as being accurate and true to real world. The same can be said for tyre models.​

Just wanted to put it out there..I never post on the accuracy of tyre models or physics calculations as I expect the dev's to get things right or as close to as they can.​
You shouldn't get riled up on it. I wouldn't give a rat's ass if a guy with multiple DTM and BTCC titles would say the physics are crap if he can't express on what particular experiences with the sim or what data he is basing this on. Without that, it's nothing more than saying "I don't like it and if you like it, you're an idiot".
If a comment doesn't feel like "god, this could be so good, if only..." - like someone wants to actually help improve the game/sim - then just discard the comment.

Edit:
I think it comes down to how people feel a car should behave. The vast majority of us have no experience in a race car, so it all comes down to perception. On one hand, we have no basis for telling a dev/maker with hard data about physics, but on the other, as you said even Thiim says there's no comparison to real life.
Actually there are quite a few sims you can get hard data out of. AC, rF1/2, AMS have plugins for getting super detailed motec data out of. PC1/2 give a still good amount, but more basic stuff. Even GT6 could copy telemetry to a USB stick and people used it to point out the completely arcade aero above 200km/h and the very low braking distances.
 
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TJP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,060
Earth :)
Appreciate the comments gents.

I'm not actually riled up; more a talking point as I peruse RD and other websites which are descending into slanging matches over which SIM does X,y and z better.

This isn't a new phenomenon however the vitriol has become idiotic and to a point where I can forsee Reiza pulling AMS 2 videos (some of the reactions to the Utlima video on RD beggars belief), Kunos quit making comments and Ian Bell stops posting about pcars 3.

One can say to stop reading RD but I'm seeing the arguments all over SIM racing forums, blogs and YT videos.
 
Oct 25, 2017
913
Germany
This isn't a new phenomenon however the vitriol has become idiotic and to a point where I can forsee Reiza pulling AMS 2 videos (some of the reactions to the Utlima video on RD beggars belief), Kunos quit making comments and Ian Bell stops posting about pcars 3.
...or they post a REDUX version:
Which... well, to my eyes it looks like the driver almost desperately tries to overdrive the car out of the corners, but can't really because the PC2 tire model is too sticky especially at low speeds.
If I'm way off with that deduction, please tell it in my face.
 

DD Power

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,397
For me it's enough that it feels right, that it feels good enough. Even if the game is holding my hand with assists under the surface, I don't care. As long as it feels right, I'm having fun. I have RaceRoom as my main sim, and I have many things that I don't like in this game, specially the price model (which is really punishing for, you know, non Europeans. It's not uncommon to see a single car in R3E costing as much an entire similar game like Assetto Corsa or Automobilista, for example, at least in my region) and the fact that it doesn't work offline. But it's still my favorite sim because there's a lot of stuff that I love in it, that the game is doing right. and I'm not only talking about tire model, suspensions and the physics in general. Every game is a package, and you can't judge it by just a single aspect. For example, one of the best racing experiences I had with a game was with Grid Autosport, that is too far from being a sim, yet the intensity of the races, the battles with the AI, the thrill of the race itself is unmatched. Same thing with Dirt 2; the driving model, despite being obviously arcade, it felt right. Same thing with Driveclub, Forza Horizon, etc. It was a thrilling game, and that's what matters to me. Lando Norris said that F1 games are arcade shit? I don't care! It feels right to me. Hell, the closest I've got from a real race was with rental karts, and a game will never be able to match the sensations overflow you feel injected right at your own body when racing for real (even with a pathetic rental kart). So I'm okay with games not being state of the art realism. I'm okay with Forza having hidden assists under the table. In fact, I'm more okay with that than I'm okay with a game being so realistic to the point of being undrivable simply because you cannot feel all that sensations you wold have on the real car, and because of that you simply don't have a chance with it. What makes a game special for me is how much fun it brings to the table, and how immersive it is, being realistic or not. I usually play like the real drivers do, without assist's that isn't in that car, but I'm not ashamed to turn some assists on if I can't drive, like I did with Project Cars, for example.

Notice how these armchair specialists usually don't have a single positive word to anything. They believe that being a critic means only criticizing, like you have to trash something to look like you know your stuff.

EDIT: TylerDurden4321 was faster. :P