Persona 5 director to character designer: "all females should be on the cute side"

[cj_iwakura]

I think this is worth discussing, since we're seeing this trend all over the place, especially in JRPGs(and sadly it's begin to influence SMT as well, hi Asahi).

https://twitter.com/makarakaja/status/928545941489180672
(This is from the just-released US version of The Art of Persona 5, comments from Shigenori Soejima, Persona 3-5's character designer.)

Is this expected to make female characters more likeable, and thus more marketable('waifu quotient"), or should designers be allowed to push the envelope more?

 

[BLLYjoe25]

I don't think this is right but it probably helps sell the game.

 

[BassForever]

Considering persona 5 made basically every female a romance option, and the fans whined that the older Nejima sister wasn't a romance option. My conclusion is they're doing exactly what the fan base wants and I can't criticize them for that. Chastize waifu culture all you want, but that is what the market wants and said market is willing to throw a lot of money at that.

 

[CloseTalker]

I feel like that exact conversation happens with everything anime related

 

[Vylash]

finally, someone who understands

 

[Kinsei]

That's terrible.

I would have liked to see the original design.

 

[SoftTaur]

Get real taste, Atlus.

 

[DGenerator]

FOR REAL??!?

 

[Xer0]

I haven't played the game, but, does that decision hurt the overall experience, or something?

 

[blonded]

Disappointing. The old woman SL from Persona 4 was great

 

[Deleted member 11093]

Really dislike the lack of "plain" (for the lack of a better term) female protagonists in games, all of them have to be models level of pretty, it's really shallow.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I haven't played the game, but, does that decision hurt the overall experience, or something?

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Not really. Tae is my favorite character, but it definitely explains a lot. EVERY female in the game can be dated, even(especially) the adults.

 

[Farrac]

Considering persona 5 made basically every female a romance option, and the fans whined that the older Nejima sister wasn't a romance option. My conclusion is they're doing exactly what the fan base wants and I can't criticize them for that. Chastize waifu culture all you want, but that is what the market wants and said market is willing to throw a lot of money at that.

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I haven't played Persona 5, so maybe I'm missing something, but what does having a woman as a romance option have to do with she "having to be on the cute side"?

 

[shimon]

I'm shocked.

 

[SliceSabre]

Considering almost every female is a romantic interest I'm not surprised to see this. That isn't to say some wouldn't have been interested in a 'meaner' version of her.

 

[Dust]

Worked for Overwatch,Nier Automata, Persona 5, Danganronpa and gazillion other games.
Cute/attractive/sexy people sell things, it's not rocket science.

 

[elyetis]

Is this expected to make female characters more likeable, and thus more marketable('waifu quotient"), or should designers be allowed to push the envelope more?

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I have no problem with it on a per game basis ( and actually enjoy it, I simply like good looking /and sexy/ characters ), I only see a problem when it already is or become an industry wide policy or at least close to it. And it's hard to argue that it isn't already.

 

[Fireblend]

Hey OP >:( Asahi's design is pretty cool.

Also I feel like most of the main cast in Persona 5 followed those same guidelines, not only the females, which also looked pretty badass in their Persona costumes. I find most of the cast's design very visually pleasing.

Not defending the statement though. Just feel like the end product doesn't really reflect it.

 

[MrHeisenbird]

It seems that Director Hashino is a man of culture.

Lol.

 

[Asbsand]

I mean, Persona is a "waifu sim" in part isn't it? That's what you'll get then. That's the recipe; "Cute females".

 

[Silky]

Takemi was already the best but I would really love to see her beta design.

Kind of a bummer to read though.

 

[LuckyChamCham]

Kawaii

 

[Chamaeleonx]

Well, a cute crazy scientist has a good gap in their profile that is interesting. Despite being really cute and sweet they will cut you open and use your body as they see fit.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Hey OP >:( Asahi's design is pretty cool.

Also I feel like most of the main cast in Persona 5 followed those same guidelines, not only the females, which also looked pretty badass in their Persona costumes.

Not defending the statement though. Just feel like the end product doesn't really reflect it.

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I like Asahi too, but you can't deny her design screams 'SMT needs more cute'.

 

[Razgriz417]

That's what the market wants so I guess that's what they get. Not surprised at all Though I'm curious to see what the initial designs for the characters looked like

 

[Forkball]

Future news: Persona 5 director to helm next Fire Emblem

 

[Ferrs]

Awaiting the "artistic freedom" guys.

 

[BassForever]

I haven't played Persona 5, so maybe I'm missing something, but what does having a woman as a romance option have to do with she "having to be on the cute side"?

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I don't have any kind of numbers in front of me to back this up, but I would venture a guess that evidence would show that "cute" female characters market and sell better. The persona team likely isn't designing the p5 ladies for just the one game, but for all the spin offs and licensed merch that they'll sell for years to come.

 

[Raijinto]

I haven't played Persona 5, so maybe I'm missing something, but what does having a woman as a romance option have to do with she "having to be on the cute side"?

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They show the female characters in pre-release trailers and-what-have-you specifically to drive this. So much so that Neogaf had to have one thread specifically for the romancing so prevalent was that and obviously Atlus aren't going to miss out on that massive amount of discussion about their game by showcasing just normal people that don't fit into some kind of fetish.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I mean, Persona is a "waifu sim" in part isn't it? That's what you'll get then. That's the recipe; "Cute females".

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Well... it is now...

 

[minecraft]

mmmmm yummy patriarchy

 

[supremeplatypus]

Persona involves waifu dating so I'm not surprised. Same reason why they don't give us a female protagonist. Husbando dating just won't sell as well. Honestly I enjoy those designs that make the women cute. Pretty sure most anime avatars like mine won't exist if those girls weren't cute in some way.

 

[Farrac]

I don't have any kind of numbers in front of me to back this up, but I would venture a guess that evidence would show that "cute" female characters market and sell better. The persona team likely isn't designing the p5 ladies for just the one game, but for all the spin offs and licensed merch that they'll sell for years to come.

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They show the female characters in pre-release trailers and-what-have-you specifically to drive this. So much so that Neogaf had to have one thread specifically for the romancing so prevalent was that and obviously Atlus aren't going to miss out on that massive amount of discussion about their game by showcasing just normal people that don't fit into some kind of fetish.

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I see. I wasn't thinking about the marketing, really.

 

[Deleted member 679]

Wow, I definitely wasn't expecting this to be referencing Takemi. Her design is so good in the final game. I'm curious to see how the early drawings looked like, then.

 

[SPRidley]

While I undertand comments about making characters charismatic to be attractive in a game with romance options, I dont think the "all need to be cute" part is the way to go. For example, the meaner eyes character version they are showing here is still really nice looking, and not going the "cute" way is actually a positive because the more variations of characters, the more people with different tastes you are going to attract.

EDIT
Oh wait, that how she looks in the final game (i really want to play P5 but too many games and too little money to buy a ps4 now). Yeah, i would need to see the older designs to see how much more meaner she looked, theres a fine line to give charisma using x or y trope (even being mean) that will attract people to that character, and when you pass that line (even if her design is sexy or something) you start loosing a lot of appeal for a lot of the audience.

 

[MentalZer0]

100%. Unlike western devs, japan devs never disappoints when it comes to female characters. Just think about it :)

 

[wartama]

But artists should be left with their creative vision should they /S

Female characters are for the most of the time designed to appeal to the male market regardless of the artist's preference. Artists aren't allowed that much freedom anyway, so why is the criticism of objectified designs referred to as 'censorship'?

 

[Neapolitan]

It's eh, but understandable. They know who they're selling the game to.

Some early design are posted as a reply to the tweet at OP

Spoiler: Ohya

Spoiler: Kawakami

Spoiler: Sae

 

[Majukun]

where is the news exactly?
it's a commercial product, of course the character design will go towards something appealing to the eye.

money and jobs are at stake here, everything is done in roder to maximize profit, and making good loking character designs it's part of it, and the director's job it's to do anything to make a successful product

it's not a statement on women in general, it's a "we want to give our audience something good to look at because usually it makes the product more successful,go and draw a cutie"

 

[Charamiwa]

Anybody got the funny (and extremely biased) collage of SMT devs then and now talking about female characters?

edit : there it is

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(please do not take this too seriously)

 

[Dr. Caroll]

I feel like this is one of those things that doesn't get talked about when it comes to manga, videogames, etc in Japan -- that creators pander super hard to their audience. The nature of the market is different. If "the fans" want something, the fans get what they want. This is why you get manga with storylines that start out great but turn to complete garbage in a very predictable way -- because that's what the audience wants. All those bullshit cliches where you go, "How could a grown adult write this and take themselves seriously?" Well, it's often a reluctant compromise because bucking convention is a great way to flop. Sales start slipping somewhere along the line and the authors cave to audience desires and expectations. This is true of most industries to some extent, but it's especially problematic in Japan due to Otaku culture where, to be quite blunt, a critical section of your fanbase can be made up of maladjusted weirdos who will probably sneak into your house and stab you in the shower if the protagonist doesn't hook up with best girl at the end of your series.

 

[Herr Starr]

The statement itself isn't quite right, but on the other hand, they have given every central character in this game good looks, no matter the gender. It's not just the women.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

This is a design trend that has homogenized Japanese character designs in both games and anime. There's plenty of feminist problems with this design philosophy, but it's also how we end up with so many moe blobs and interchangeable character designs.

Having to work within a narrow definition of what a character should look like only reduces the variety of characters you will get to experience. The sheer glut of characters who already look like this has left me starved for characters who look different. Anime can have such a wide and spirited spectrum of art. Design philosophies like this are why, commercially, it does not.

That's my two cents.

EDIT: And someone always because "oh yeah and Western character designs are any better!" - they suffer from the same problem. We've seen the chart of brown hair male protagonists. It's the same thing.

 

[Razgriz417]

It's eh, but understandable. They know who they're selling the game to.

Some early design are posted as a reply to the tweet at OP

Spoiler: Ohya

Spoiler: Kawakami

Spoiler: Sae

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Wow thanks, initial Ohya and Kawasaki are so much better than what ended up in game. That last drawing of Sae looks great too.


Might need to buy the art book if amazon puts it on sale

 

[BassForever]

It's eh, but understandable. They know who they're selling the game to.

Some early design are posted as a reply to the tweet at OP

Spoiler: Ohya

Spoiler: Kawakami

Spoiler: Sae

Click to shrink...

I would actually argue Ohya got a downgrade from her original idea, and even go so far as to say she's the closest to a plain girl in P5. She also has the most ??? Romance plot compared to the rest of the female cast.

 

[Ferrs]

where is the news exactly?
it's a commercial product, of course the character design will go towards something appealing to the eye.

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To be fair, a lot of times when people argue against "waifu" styled or sexualized characters, other people jump out with the "it's artistic freedom don't censor artists".

Turns out that nope, it's just marketing, like everything else in a game.

So yeah, this shouldn't be news but they are.

 

[Fireblend]

I like Asahi too, but you can't deny her design screams 'SMT needs more cute'.

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I mean, I feel like most of the characters design guidelines were revised for that game. Hallelujah, CasperNavarre or Nanashi wouldn't have visually fit in SMT IV either.

 

[Vault]

What Female characters looked like before persona became a waifu simulator

 

[Asbsand]

100%. Unlike western devs, japan devs never disappoints when it comes to female characters. Just think about it :)

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Same development (well parent-development) company though :P

 

[Dreamboum]

This reminds me of this bit about the working relationship with the charater designer of #FE

The thinking behind designing women has seriously gone to the gutter at Atlus.