If you're talking about 'shitty writing' and then saying things like this about people being abusive, I think its not the 'shitty writing' that is at fault but your understanding of abuse, or more accurately, you're lack of it.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Persona 5 tries to be deep, but it fails
- Thread starter BoJack
- Start date
Oh don't worry the game goes out of its way to present Kamoshida's actions in shades of gray by sexualizing the female cast in unpleasant ways afterward
Honestly out of all the ways that I think the game fails, calling Kamoshida a creep incontrovertibly is not one of them, so I was astounded that was the direction this post went in.
"Kamoshida is a former professional athlete and Olympic volleyball champion who later became the volleyball coach of Shujin Academy. During his time as a teacher, Kamoshida's fame was used as a means to give Shujin Academy and its students more publicity, be it for scholarships or college applications. His ego, inflated by the clear favoritism of Principal Kobayakawa, caused him to sabotage other Shujin Academy sports teams, forcing most to disband so the volleyball team would remain at the forefront. One of the casualties of this campaign was the track team; during his coaching, Kamoshida purposefully goaded them, eventually intentionally provoking one of the top team members, Ryuji Sakamoto, into violence, allowing him to break Ryuji's leg in an apparent case of "self-defense" resulting in the subsequent disbanding of the team.
Despite his Volleyball Club appears to be voluntary instead of forced draft, it is the only sports club available as he sabotaged and disbanded the rest, and all athletes in the club are invariably abused. He sexually harasses his female athletes while subjecting male athletes to brutal physical abuse which he justified by labeling it as "training." It is heavily implied that his usual methods of abusing his athletes are physically assaulting them with his fists, spiking volleyballs directly aimed at their faces and denying them water or rest even if they need it. Presumably, due to the abuse, the sounds of students screaming or other weird noises (Which are implied to be of students having orgasms when being molested by him) can be often heard near the PE faculty office. Even students out of the volleyball team are sometimes not immune to him; if he does not like a specific student, he will tell Yuuki Mishima, a volleyball athlete who he often abuses to spread unfavorable rumors about them.
Suguru Kamoshida
Suguru Kamoshida is a character from Persona 5. He is a former Olympian athlete who has become the volleyball coach of Shujin Academy. Persona 5 / Royal: Major Character (Antagonist) Persona 5 (Manga) Persona 5 The Animation Persona 5 The Stage Persona 5: Dancing in Starlight: Cameo Persona 5...
megamitensei.fandom.com
Dude the theme of "people given power without restraint end up corrupt" is all right there. This is all spelled out in the game.
You just doubted someone saying that abusers don't need a traumatic backstory, implying that you were under the impression that they do.
It's super weird to say that you want more explanation for why Kamoshida did what he did. The game spells it out - Kamoshida brought prestige to the school and felt owed and above everyone else, and others looked the other way, either because they needed that prestige or because of his position of authority. You literally go inside his head and see how he views the world and what he's doing. His boss form just yells it all out.
If you're still desiring a reason to feel sympathy for him after all that, well, I dunno what that says about you.
I can certainly understand that and understand why people like these kind of stories, I just don't. It's just not where I go to with my fiction. Same reason why I don't spend my time watching stuff like L&O SVU.
The thing I originally responded/agreed to in this thread;
Persona 5 has its problems, but trying to "both sides" a fucking sexual abuser? Nah.
Making a character sympathetic doesnt automatically make them have depth, which is what that person is asking for. I want more sympathetic villains, but people like sexual abusers shouldnt be given any kind of sympathetic light.
OP
OP
You say that power and fame led him into this abusive person, I say I think there are things in his past that led him into being corrupted by having fame and power.
It's your average "tell don't show" anime writing. It's good, but it's not moving.
Obsessed with style, not having room for empathy or the flair required to get you to feel stuff.
Writers of the CING games, Shu Takumi and others are my JP writer heroes. Surely some older Square writers are good too, but Atlus is just "Wow we can do edgy & stylish stuff with DEEP THEMES."
Obsessed with style, not having room for empathy or the flair required to get you to feel stuff.
Writers of the CING games, Shu Takumi and others are my JP writer heroes. Surely some older Square writers are good too, but Atlus is just "Wow we can do edgy & stylish stuff with DEEP THEMES."
I didn't get the impression any of the Persona or SMT titles were ever deep, even by design?
I think most if not ALL the deeper aspects comes out from some of the confidant stories across Persona 3, 4 and 5. The main story? Not so much. It's a bit a like watching Scooby doo and suddenly a guest character for that episode has a profound story.
I think most if not ALL the deeper aspects comes out from some of the confidant stories across Persona 3, 4 and 5. The main story? Not so much. It's a bit a like watching Scooby doo and suddenly a guest character for that episode has a profound story.
It's more like authority is (sometimes) bad. The theme is rebellion. A hell of a thing for Japanese society.
while i managed to finish the game, this, in a nutshell, is pretty much for me the reason that persona 5 is the disappointment of the generation. i've always really loved this series, & i wasn't prepared at all for the simplistic, juvenile world view & vision the game espouses...
i'd only add: op, don't write the whole series off. play p3/p4, if you can. they're both excellent (as are the previous entries in their own way)...
I mean the game spells this out as part of the story for that arc.
The game isn't about Kamoshida's life, its about downtrodden feeling teenagers pushing back against society. Kamoshida is merely the stepping stone along their development and for its flaws I feel they did a good job of making me hate him and want to see his downfall myself.
Persona 5 contradicts its own messages a lot. That said, I don't think Kamoshida needs to tell "his side of story", that's actually one of the few good arcs in the game.
But overall Persona 5 is a pretty clear cut black and white story with no real commitment to what it wants to say (and at times it's not really sure what that even is). So yea, don't expect anything "grey" about this game.
But overall Persona 5 is a pretty clear cut black and white story with no real commitment to what it wants to say (and at times it's not really sure what that even is). So yea, don't expect anything "grey" about this game.
Last edited:
OP
OP
What? Read my post again!
I wish I knew. Could be tons of environment or/and genetic reasons. Like I don't know, maybe he was also in a school with abuser teachers too? But this is the laziest answer. Why? Because I'm not aware of his life, and yes, I'm not educated in human behaviour field. That's why I would like to see this things in games like this.
I think it depends on what you get out of the game. P4 is probably executed better, but is definitely a more juvenile story considering it's very much a "be true to yourself" story which is fine, but isn't exactly novel in the YA sphere.
I'd argue a story with strong activism themes is much more suited for older audiences even if it doesn't always hit the homerun. On a personal level, p5 was what got me motivated to look more into voting and protests because it's ideas, especially ones presented at the end resonated with me as someone who paid little attention previously.
Don't let Nocturne fans hear you say that, you'll never hear the end of it
I agree with your title but not for this reason. The game set itself up really well from the get-go. Exploring your new neighbourhood and hearing people talk about the economy, listening to the radio talk about the nation's youth problem, all while having to navigate a new life in an all-consuming city while starting from a dusty attic. And oh, you're not even a nobody like everyone else. You're worse. You're a delinquent. It was such a strong start.
With Kamoshida being the first boss, it sets up this foundational idea that there's always going to be a threshold of damage that is inflicted by people like him and that can never be undone. And because the damage is irreversible, his own trauma shouldn't justify the hurt he's caused. And that's why his arc needed to be black and white, because it's establishing that certain behaviors shouldn't be negotiated with. And I thought the game would later set you off with this mindset until it's challenged by a "shitty adult" who's also struggling not to be consumed by the city. I thought the adult Confidantes hinted at this idea but I don't know if any of them actually adequately explored it.
I'm not op. The part I agreed with is the part I quoted. Not everything has to be sympathetic but I have less tolerance for stories where the villain is just evil for the sake of it/to make you feel good to beat them/when the good guys win. It is very easy to get you to hate that person and I have become numb to the feeling of cathartic joy in seeing such a easy mark get their comeuppance. Is it really too much to ask for more from a jrpg now?
It REALLY gets worse in this regard, Op
Fuck Kamoshida, he doesnt deserve redemption
But the sexualisation in this game is just disgusting. The protagonists sexualise their friend, even. Her poses and camera angles in battle is also ridiculous.
And dont give me that "she owns it" Bayonetta bulshit, because she is suposed to be underage.
Fuck Kamoshida, he doesnt deserve redemption
But the sexualisation in this game is just disgusting. The protagonists sexualise their friend, even. Her poses and camera angles in battle is also ridiculous.
And dont give me that "she owns it" Bayonetta bulshit, because she is suposed to be underage.
Kamoshida was based on a real rapist. People can be bad because of what society enables. "Complex motivations" for a villain are not an inherently good narrative tool. If any character needed to be explored more, it was Shiho.
No, but the phantom thieves are basically performing non-consented invasive brain surgery and even even when the game does the "is this actually ok?" introspection it fell completely flat for me. Adults are the baddies and teens have a better sense of morality and go inside their brains to fix them all.
Also I did date the teacher because while I don't care for the dating stuff at all but wanted to see how far the game took it. That game really lets you get down with every woman from your teacher to the equivalent of your little sister.
Mostly it just let you make her do chores for you.
Last edited:
I think BoJack, not unreasonably, expected the game to follow through the precedent of P4, where the dungeons represent the psyches of good people with repressed issues, and navigating the dungeons is a metaphor for unraveling these issues and bringing them to light. P5's dungeons of basically irredeemably evil people that you artificially manipulate into owning themselves can be very jarring if you were expecting something like that. I appreciate that they didn't want to repeat the same structure for P5, but the problem is that they didn't replace it with something equally meaningful, and this ends up making not just the dungeons but the whole game considerably shallower.
These aren't the only issues with P5's plot compared with P4, not by a long shot. The fact that every female social link, for example, is an eligible bachelorette, also makes that side of the plot much more homogeneous and less diverse. So, yes, I would say you would do best to drop it now. I was actually enjoying by that point, but I ended up quitting a few dungeons later out of sheer exhaustion at their increasingly insane length. I don't feel like I would have missed anything particularly inspired by dropping the game earlier.
These aren't the only issues with P5's plot compared with P4, not by a long shot. The fact that every female social link, for example, is an eligible bachelorette, also makes that side of the plot much more homogeneous and less diverse. So, yes, I would say you would do best to drop it now. I was actually enjoying by that point, but I ended up quitting a few dungeons later out of sheer exhaustion at their increasingly insane length. I don't feel like I would have missed anything particularly inspired by dropping the game earlier.
I do think that P5 is not nearly as deep as it pretends to be, primarily because whiny idiot teenagers complaining about "shitty adults" is just about the furthest thing from depth you can possibly find in modern anime, but Kamoshida's arc was not the problem.
It was the fact that the game kept flirting with serious themes like sexual assault and societal expectation and then doing NOTHING with it. It wanted the allure of tackling serious topics but it was still a dumb anime game about dumb kids who don't know anything acting like they know everything with a story that bends over backwards to prove them right by having virtually every adult they encounter BE the horrible evil bastard they think they are.
They needed to start off with a completely undebatably evil jerk like Kamoshida and then start introducing complexity and shades of grey as the plot progressed to challenge the Phantom Thieves and make them wonder if their cause is actually right. They didn't really do that by the time I got bored and quit.
It was the fact that the game kept flirting with serious themes like sexual assault and societal expectation and then doing NOTHING with it. It wanted the allure of tackling serious topics but it was still a dumb anime game about dumb kids who don't know anything acting like they know everything with a story that bends over backwards to prove them right by having virtually every adult they encounter BE the horrible evil bastard they think they are.
They needed to start off with a completely undebatably evil jerk like Kamoshida and then start introducing complexity and shades of grey as the plot progressed to challenge the Phantom Thieves and make them wonder if their cause is actually right. They didn't really do that by the time I got bored and quit.
Man, for real. Bojack has several arcs about insincere abusers garnering sympathy drowning out the justice for the abused. Feels like OP's avatar and P5 gripes are at odds.
Yeah, that sort of undercut the gist of the story didn't it. Makes the story feel more like titillation than contemplation. Women aren't empowered, even by the "good guys". They're objectified.
OP
OP
This was pretty much the first post without telling me what to like and how I should think about a character and gave me a good suggestion at the end. Yes I think I'm done with P5.
Thanks for your wholesome post.
It's kind of deep in the first arc, then as soon as Kamoshida's gone and they're trying to find the next villain, it falls flat on its face. Then it falls harder, and harder, and harder until Akechi "dies" and than it falls so hard it comes out the other side of the Earth.
The writing's so fucking bad, holy shit. If it wasn't for the great gameplay loop, nobody but the weirdos would like it.
The writing's so fucking bad, holy shit. If it wasn't for the great gameplay loop, nobody but the weirdos would like it.
Your perceived lack of depth ultimately doesn't mean much when you claim that the game's literally 'kids vs adults' and not 'powerless vs powerful.'
Pretty much. It's like they went "we got this one serious topic out of the way, now we can be idiots!"
And even on top of that the English localization is hoooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible. Some of the clunkiest dialogue writing I've ever seen in my life, and the voice direction is somehow even worse.
The actual themes don't really show up until later in the game. It's less about "grown ups bad", it's more about "why is everyone allowing them to get away with it"? The main idea is social media breeds apathy towards the horrors around us, and that leading through example is the only way to break the cycle. It resonated with me strongly, and even if it's not the best gameplay at the end, I still loved the message.
Man, now I really want to play it again.
Man, now I really want to play it again.
At the end of the day, it's a pretty standard pulp fiction power fantasy for teenagers. Anything more would risk alienating its target demographic :/
Sure thing; I was just thinking out loud about your post and what I myself felt while playing. :)
thankfully fixed in P5 Royal for you to bask in this game's greatness
it flows exactly like Persona 4 Golden lol
P4G is definitely shorter by almost a third and while it drags at times does not nearly drag as much as P5 does.
I honestly don't think Having a backstory which explains a persons actions necessarily means it's trying to be "sympathetic" towards them. In actuality it could be a lesson of what kind of people turn into abusers and the environments in which they grow up in. Yes, ultimately it is them who makes the choice. but understanding the context around those choices , whether it's the media, political/social climate, parenting, can help our society make positive changes which can lessen the chance of these things happening.
