Persona 6 needs to have nothing short of LGBT dating options.

[Deleted member 32561]

Absolutely.

You'd think with Hashino gone there wouldn't be a problem, but then, I've heard the rest of the SMT series isn't the best- some demons saying stuff like "gay people are useful because they don't reproduce" or something like that?

But maybe we'll see positive gay, bi/pan, or trans rep in P6 or even P5G (plz god let me date Yusuke AS A GUY), with Hashino busy with his new work. Maybe. And I hope we do.

Has there ever been good Pro LGBT media from Japan?

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Lots. It's just not in super mainstream stuff. Sailor Moon and Fate are probably the big exceptions. Sailor Moon has, well, Haruka and Michiru, who in spite of the original dub's attempt to portray them as cousins because a kids cartoon in the 90s portraying a young lesbian couple would be considered heresty. Originally (in the manga and anime) and in the Viz redub, are 100% unrelated- and are lovers. With Fate, it has a lot of characters that aren't exactly conforming to the concept of gender. Astolfo is x-gender (technically he doesn't specify but I've seen Japanese people refer to him as such, x-gender being the rough Japanese equivalent of nonbinary) for instance, and Shi Huangdi is just completely genderless. Hell, their interpretation of Da Vinci is technically a trans woman, I think, as when summoned Da Vinci chose to be a woman? Someone do correct me if I'm wrong though. There are several other characters like this as well. None of them are treated as unusual by the writing, IIRC, just as, well, people who are existing.

Slightly less mainstream there's Zombieland Saga, where one of the main zombies was a little trans girl in life, and is treated as a girl by everyone but is still notably trans. Worth noting that AFAIK, the anime doesn't actually fetishize any of the characters- it's literally just a group of zombie girls becoming idols with their cool, supportive necromancer/dad/manager type person helping them out with their problems.

Then there's Utena, which I'm surprised more people don't know about. While the background of why there's a wlw relationship is a bit problematic (the creator thought a heterosexual romance would weaken Utena as a woman fighter), the relationship itself in the show is 100% wonderful, definitely miles above anything coming out of the West at the time. Really, if Sailor Moon wasn't evident, the magical girl genre in general has a lot of LGBT themes- not just for girl characters either, between male characters too.

There's a lot of other great LGBTQ positive manga, anime and games too, if you know where to look. Japanese media does use LGBTQ people as the absolute butt of jokes a lot (particularly in shonen demographic stuff) and Japan as a nation has a lot of catching up to do with other countries with regards to treating its LGBTQ community right. But I'd argue there was a lot more positive LGBTQ rep in Japanese media than in Western media until VERY, VERY recently, and now I'd say it's about even. It's just the stuff that gets popular with Westerners tends

 

[Booki]

If we're being real, I'd be okay with them scrapping S-Links and the calender system altogether if it'd result in a better game. Put less of a focus on seducing teenagers and more focus on telling a good story.

However, since there's a minute chance of any of that happening, I think there should be LBGTQ S-Links to go along with all of the straight romance.

 

[pants]

TBH I would have romanced Yusuke if given the chance

 

[TheNotoriousAFG]

I would LOVE if they got rid of the Calendar system and went back to a traditional RPG format. Would prolly help the pacing tons too tbh.

 

[Stryda]

It really doesn't need it but hey I wouldn't be against it. More power to them if they do it

 

[ara]

If we're being real, I'd be okay with them scrapping S-Links and the calender system altogether if it'd result in a better game. Put less of a focus on seducing teenagers and more focus on telling a good story.

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I kind of love the system, but yeah, maybe three games with it is enough. No way in hell they'll ever ditch it, though.

 

[Deleted member 46429]

I'll just give my two cents. The tl;dr response is "yes."

Here's the thing. Persona is a life simulator. The whole bloody point is you role play yourself as high school student in a hypothetical urban horror fantasy land. For me, as a gay man, having to role play a "straight me" like... despite being a huge fan of JRPGs I have struggled to actually get into the series and I think the lack of lgbtq options has a lot to do with why. If you're pigeonholed into role playing an inauthentic "you," then the whole role playing aspect implodes.

I also don't want to see Persona swing go the "playersexual" route a lot of the (albeit, western) industry has, a la Stardew Valley and Skyrim. Playersexual as a trope and its problems are discussed and defined here: https://queerlyrepresent.me/resources/articles/playersexuality

Anyhow, the defense I'm seeing here is given Atlus' past experience with queer content, which yes is correctly identified as harmful and problematic, they should be excused. This argument frustrates me because it seems like y'all have no problem with a role playing game that only allows you to role play as a cishet male. I get there's absolutely reason to be concerned about Atlus' ability to tastefully write lgbtq content, but I don't think that should excuse them. Like, it's 2019, if you're creating a game where you're expected the players to project themselves, you need to prepare that some of those players aren't white cishet males. Not only do I think that expectation is reasonable, but honestly baseline for any game that's about role playing. So when I hear Atlus shouldn't do gay dating, what I'm hearing is "atlus, you make good games for cishet males to role play themselves so just do that" and it not only makes it feel like atlus is excluding me, but y'all are fine with that. But maybe that's just me.

Edit: Something I forgot to mention that I think a lot of cishet folks will miss. Persona railroading you into playing a cishet male extends beyond mere dating mechanics. Some example are characters (such as yosuke) asking which main character you think is hot or the various excursions to find babes in hot springs/beach/whatever (I felt like every trip in Persona 3 had one of those). Yeah, the actual dating part of this is actually quite small, but there's literally a dozens of ways the roleplaying is cisheteronormative that... yeah, makes it hard for me to play the games honestly.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

I would LOVE if they got rid of the Calendar system and went back to a traditional RPG format. Would prolly help the pacing tons too tbh.

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Yes please. I'm tired of the P3-P5 structure and its glacial, maddening pacing.

 

[Siggy-P]

It really does not, but I would not be against it. At least, only if it is handled respectfully and not like an awkward BioWare way of handling a gay relationship.

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Biowares Gay male relationships are the best written ones. In fact I'd say they're usually the only well written ones. (It's their gay female relationships that tend to be truly terrible).

Their straight relationships meanwhile all tend to cross over the line of sexual harrasment.

I don't understand why Japan is being singled out for exclusionary towards LGBT content when Western game really companies aren't that much better. See: Ubisoft's fuck-up.

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Ubisofts fuck up in a game filled with an almost obscene amount of pro-lgbt content and busexual orgies is nothing compared to Atlus's attitude towards LGBT characters.

One was, as said, a fuck up. The other is maliciously mocking people over multiple games.

 

[Blackage]

I don't know if I want Atlus anywhere near LGBT relationships. -_-

I mean, maybe they'll do it right? You gotta start somewhere I guess, just not the best track record so far.

 

[BrandoBoySP]

We might not even get the same gameplay system as we have now, given that Hashino's done with the series, so we might not have dating and such. I'd be ok with that, but I'd also be ok with the games sticking with this and evolving it. The pacing in 3-5 can be weird for sure, but I felt like the pacing of 2 was off in the opposite way: things just kept Happening, and we got very little characterization other than the initial introductions. The calendar system is super popular (it's what helped the games get attention!), but traditional RPG format might work as well. I think if they ensure the games maintain a sense of style, whatever they do will do well.

Either way, I want more LGBTQIA content--they fucked up with Catherine: Full Body, P5, and the P4 media post-P4, but they also did include Jun in P2, and given that it does take after anime in many ways, it would surprise me if they don't throw something in, especially with the recent rise of protests and progress with LGBTQIA rights over there. ESPECIALLY considering they cut what seems to have been a Yosuke romance in 4 and handled Lala sensitively in 5. They have the capacity to do it right, and team members (especially now) are shifting around. I wouldn't expect it to be super progressive by Western standards, but even just writing it without calling attention to "ooooh we're two BOYS" (or girls) would work.

The thing with depictions of LGBTQIA people in anime is that a lot of people view it either as a subculture (specifically for fans of that) or just as entertainment, rather than something that reflects life--there's a lot of the typical seme/uke stuff because it's often more for fujoshi than for the gay community unless it's written by a member of it. That isn't to say there's no progress or progressive media by Western standards; it's just a very different atmosphere and culture for it. That helps to give SOME context for Atlus' handling of things, but I also know that people have discussed the issues with them/mentioned it on social media even to Atlus JP, so there's not that much of an excuse. Honestly, I'd rather not have it at all than have things like the stereotypes in 5 or the gay panic in the 4 spinoff media.

I felt like Kanji in the original 4 was ok--everyone accepted him, and Yosuke felt uncomfortable, but eventually he stopped making nearly as many comments about it (and tbh I read him as closeted). His sexuality got conflated with his ideas of masculinity, but original Persona 4 has him accept that that's a part of him, and he just wants to do things at full throttle; it's never really answered if he's gay or bi or what, and he continues to have feelings for Naoto pre- and post-reveal. Personally, I enjoyed that; it was everything that came after the original release that continued making him the butt of jokes just because he was MAYBE queer. Naoto's situation was iffy; it was progressive for Japan and rigid gender roles over there, but had the side-effect of being able to be read as transphobic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was he not relieved once he realized Naoto wasn't a boy but a girl - thus, his attraction could no longer be considered "gay"? Or did I miss something lol

Like, his arc wasn't just confined to liking girly things like sewing and being treated as gay as a result of liking these feminine items. He literally crushed on Naoto when he was under the impression that she was a boy, no?

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He was relieved, but it was played more like "oh, good, I don't have to worry about this" rather than just a "holy shit thank god I'm not gay". I might be reading too much into it, but I felt it was more of a "phew, people won't judge me" rather than an internal "not gay. good!", especially with how he came to the realization that his Shadow was part of him.

Absolutely.

You'd think with Hashino gone there wouldn't be a problem, but then, I've heard the rest of the SMT series isn't the best- some demons saying stuff like "gay people are useful because they don't reproduce" or something like that?

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tbf the demons also sometimes like to eat/murder people--they're not presented as unequivocal allies, but as actual monsters that happen to have cognizance.

 

[Deleted member 41931]

I can't really say I trust them to handle one well, but if they did, absolutely.

 

[Wink784]

I'd certainly welcome it. Would also like to choose between male and female protagonist, they wouldn't even have to change anything except pronouns. That said I agree with many posts here that they really don't need to it, it's more of a would be nice. I personally don't need the characters I play be representative of me or my values.

 

[Etrian Darkness]

Yosuke seemed to be planned in P4.
Yusuke in P5 seems weird that he isn't.

It isn't outside the realm of possibility. Especially when it looks like P6 will be done by a different team.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

and the option to play as a girl

 

[Taruranto]

Hell, their interpretation of Da Vinci is technically a trans woman, I think, as when summoned Da Vinci chose to be a woman?

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Yes, but that's because he's obsessed with beauty as he sees the Mona Lisa as the "Ultimate Beauty". His female form is literally the Mona Lisa, but he still is treated as male in general.

 

[Pekola]

So when I hear Atlus shouldn't do gay dating, what I'm hearing is "atlus, you make good games for cishet males to role play themselves so just do that" and it not only makes it feel like atlus is excluding me, but y'all are fine with that. But maybe that's just me.

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That's the exact implication.

But Atlus always gets a defense because "creative freedom". Gamers love to talk about freedom of expression because they don't know anything about art history or game development.

Their idea of freedom always coincides with the status quo, and they have no self awareness to recognize why that is, or why it's a problem.

 

[WarpSpeedMolasses]

You should finish his arc because it's not bullshit at all.



Yeah, that's not what happened.

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I'm invested in the world and Persona so Im definitely gonna finish it. (Didn't make this thread to bash Atlus in any capacity. Most of us just want them to step it up and be better cause we love their games).

But its gonna take some profoundly good-intentioned and well executed writing to justify the gross tropes the game leaned into with Posessed Kanji. I'm honestly not holding my breath but I'll see it to the end. (Then there's the matter of the other games.)

 

[Zafir]

Still don't even know why Yusuke wasn't an option. Then again considering the gay guy's portrayal in that game, I guess I do know why......

 

[Pata Hikari]

Yes, but that's because he's obsessed with beauty as he sees the Mona Lisa as the "Ultimate Beauty". His female form is literally the Mona Lisa, but he still is treated as male in general.

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No she's considered female and mechanics based off gender treat her as female.

 

[Deleted member 32561]

Yes, but that's because he's obsessed with beauty as he sees the Mona Lisa as the "Ultimate Beauty". His female form is literally the Mona Lisa, but he still is treated as male in general.

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Ah, my mistake then, I guess they're just gender noncomforming in general then, not so much trans, if they're still treated as a man. Apologies. I'm still getting into the series so I'm going off of what friends have told me.

 

[Azurik]

It definitely doesn't need to at all

 

[Deleted member 2669]

You'd think with Hashino gone there wouldn't be a problem, but then, I've heard the rest of the SMT series isn't the best- some demons saying stuff like "gay people are useful because they don't reproduce" or something like that?

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That was Persona 2. Modern SMT has problems with racism, sexism, and pedophilia.

 

[Pyro]

I'd love nothing more for P6 but I doubt it will happen :(

 

[Taruranto]

No she's considered female and mechanics based off gender treat her as female.

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Hmm, D'Eon and Astolfo get treated as females by some mechanics so I don't think it means much (D'Eon is meant to be gender ambiguous/both genders and Astolfo is explicitly just a crossdresser).

I never got the feeling Da Vinci was meant to be anything but a "Dude who randomly got into a woman body and doesn't mind it".

 

[Frozenprince]

If they don't show P6 this year it probably isn't even going to exist for another 5 years anyway.

But yes, lemme touch Yusuke's butt, P Studios. You know you want me to.

 

[Zeroro]

It definitely doesn't need to at all

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Then it needs it as much as the series needs the insane amount of egregiously heterosexual romance options, I guess!

 

[Pata Hikari]

Hmm, D'Eon and Astolfo get treated as females by some mechanics so I don't think it means much (D'Eon is meant to be gender ambiguous/both genders and Astolfo is explicitly just a crossdresser).

I never got the feeling Da Vinci was meant to be anything but a "Dude who randomly got into a woman body and doesn't mind it".

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Except Da Vinci chose to make her body female.

Also, no, Astolfo and d'Eon are not effected by the gender based mechanics. Neither of them have a gender trait while Da Vinci is labeled as "Female" by the game mechanics.

 

[Taruranto]

Except Da Vinci chose to make her body female.

Also, no, Astolfo and d'Eon are not effected by the gender based mechanics. Neither of them have a gender trait while Da Vinci is labeled as "Female" by the game mechanics.

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They are, they both can take part and get bonuses in the Prima Ilya Event for example. Same for the Valentine event, in which they both fall in the "male" and "female" columns.

 

[Pata Hikari]

They are, they both can take part and get bonuses in the Prima Ilya Event for example. Same for the Valentine event, in which they both fall in the "male" and "female" columns.

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That just means that they're non bianary.

Also, you do realize that the protagonist of the first story Nasu ever wrote is non-binary? And their love interest flat out states they'd love them no matter what gender they've been? Seriously, Type Moon is far from perfect but the group's always at least tried with alternate sexuality and gender identities.

 

[Hate]

Not really.

When the studio has a history of fucking it up, might as well not do it in case they do a bad job at it.