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Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong here

It's not a possibility. You are wrong. Over and over we go through the same shit with PDP. First its rape jokes. Then its repeated anti semitism. Then its calling people niggers. Over and over. Fucking stop. He holds responsibility for catering to these people. End of story.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
You cannot hold the president, those who claim to be sources of news and a YouTuber who's primary content is playing video games to the same standard in regards to watching what they say.
If their words reach billions of people I don't know why I shouldn't. You're operating from the stance that everyone going to PDP is objectively going to view him as just an entertainer. Every body viewing will obviously just pass his rhetoric through the lens that they shouldn't take him seriously. But that's not reasonable because people aren't reasonable. Some people will grow up with him and idolize him. There are people who will adopt his language and his opinions because they make PDP a regular part of their media diet. PDP himself puts away his persona for the sake of having serious discussions about his ideals and beliefs on his channel. At that point it's not just entertainment. At that point he's making sure he's sending a message and if you're sending a message to a crowd of millions it has an impact.

EDIT: had to put the right time code for the video
 

Arttemis

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
6,198
Can you pm it to me, I thought all of it was basically him just trolling
If you read the staff post pinned at the top of every page, you would know this is against the rules. The site condemns the proliferation of the murderous bigot's words, and it does not want to be the platform in which that ideology is spread.

Plenty of reputable sources of news are posting their analysis of it, including WaPo.

To touch on the lunacy of your other posts, free speech is not an ultimate right even in the US. It's already legally impuned upon in a handful of circumstances, such as inciting violence. Moderation isn't an infringement of free speech, it is a private entity's right to curate the degree of content their platform hosts.

When arguments occur in bad faith, particular from freshly created accounts who push ignorant ideas that completely forego the ability to understand that not a single iota of responsibility by the shooter is absolved when pointing out the shared responsibility of a paid "influencer" with racism-laced rhetoric and an audience of millions of people who are influenced by it.

Words matter, and the larger the audience of a speaker, the more responsibility they have in condemning any ideology of hate. This man consistently did the opposite in practice, and only gave hollow lip service when called out on his egregious behavior. Before going to bad for someone You claim to have little knowledge about, how about you do some research. There are multiple threadmarked posts in this thread that shed light on his bigoted behavior. You have all the opportunity of the internet to look it up yourself, but instead you combatively argue on a topic about which you claim to be ignorant.
 
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Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
but still good, and also respected Chinese and Japanese.
thats not true, Japan signed a treat that they should talk to Japan about a possible invasion in USSR, germany ignored japan didnt even cared, and only to put in perspective USA was very racist against japanese and chinese, germany was no different, its not because Japan was germany ally that they didnt think that they are inferior.
Only after japan turned into a super power after WW2 the racism got smaller against japanese/chinese in the western world.
 

HiredN00bs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
826
Laurel, MD
This is not, nor has it ever, been true. Ever.

Like, it's been scientifically proven that when confronted with a reality that does not conform to their world view, they do not actually learn, they retreat even further into their beliefs.

Conservative politics, for at least the last 40 years, has had bigotry as it's base and driving instinct. That is the defining trait.
You're referring to factoids and I'm referring to life experiences. Having a personal relationship with someone who is part of a group targeted by their bigotry forces a shift. It might be a small one ("one of the good ones") or a large one ("I was wrong about this"). Having a tragedy where someone might have to compassionately euthanize a child or elderly person can change a pro-life perspective. I have had this experience myself. Try not to be so dismissive and tribal about this.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,224
I think something that should be considered is that this is an issue that goes beyond just PDP but gaming (and internet culture) in general for encouraging, influencing and doing nothing to stop the radicalization that's been happening. the fandoms, YouTubers, the compnanies, the marketing, new sites, we're all responsible.

PDP is not the first or only big YouTuber to encourage alt right views and have they ever been punished for it, no, instead many of them get million of followers and defenders, YouTube does nothing to stop it and it gets normalized. People like Yahtzee creates the "ironic" "PC Master Race" meme and despite being told the dangers of using Nazi terminology that way, despite how people were using that term as an emblem of pride, we and Yahtzee did worse then nothing:

writers in more mainstream computer-related and gaming-related publications tended to avoid using the term because of its negative associations, such as Nazism. In early 2015, Tyler Wilde, executive editor of PC Gamer, suggested the term should be abandoned altogether in an article titled "Let's stop calling ourselves the PC Master Race". "It worked as a hyperbolic joke when it was first said as a hyperbolic joke, and I did think it was a little funny to embrace the criticism ironically—for a moment, [but] when I see kids unironically boasting about their 'master race' affiliation on forums, I cringe." Tyler instead suggested replacing the term, and offered examples such as "Fearsome Keyboard People" and "PC Thunder Cats". The article was met by some disagreement from others who believed the term's usage was acceptable. While Ben Croshaw acknowledged the term's reference to and origins from Nazi Germany, he countered that those who use the term without knowing of the association can be viewed positively as a sign that those ideals and their historic Nazi associations had faded from the public mind. He also made a reference to attempts to incite the term's abandonment as being part of a sort of "thought police", criticizing Tyler Wilde's article.

"Thought Police", we shot down people warning us of the real threat that normalizing language like this could bring, thought that people not knowing the implication of said language was a good thing and laughed and mocked those who didn't like it. What does that say about us? And look at the results, Steam, PC's biggest gaming marketplace infested with Nazi and alt rights groups, games and trolls, toxicity in gaming so normalized, groups like gamergate allowed to exist unchecked and sites like The Escapist actually trying to get alt right readership.

And what do we do? We don't try to solve the issue, most of the time we distance ourselves, too many times have I seen gaming journanists who were all to happy to be part of it years ago suddenly act outraged with no hint of regret or apology for they helped spread, often getting angry when it's pointed out. Too many times have I seen fandom go "Oh they aren't "real fans" they have nothing to do with us" instead of admitting that their is a problem that should be addressed or simply try to hide it rather then confront it.

We as gaming fans, the press, developers, marketers, publishers, streamers, YouTubers, reviewers need to stop that, we need to say no, confront the radiclization we allowed in our communities and fight it, ban it, call it out for what it is and stop ignoring and endorsing it. Punish people like PDP who collaborate and stop using terminology whether ironically or unironically.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
You're referring to factoids and I'm referring to life experiences. Having a personal relationship with someone who is part of a group targeted by their bigotry forces a shift. It might be a small one ("one of the good ones") or a large one ("I was wrong about this"). Having a tragedy where someone might have to compassionately euthanize a child or elderly person can change a pro-life perspective. I have had this experience myself. Try not to be so dismissive and tribal about this.

I dunno lots of racists have black "friends"
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,224
Also I'm surpirsed that alt and burner account are able to get on ResetERA so quickly, I was under the impression their was a waiting time before you could fully register, I remember having to wait 3 days or so to avoid situations like this? Did ERA change its policies since then?
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
You're referring to factoids and I'm referring to life experiences. Having a personal relationship with someone who is part of a group targeted by their bigotry forces a shift. It might be a small one ("one of the good ones") or a large one ("I was wrong about this"). Having a tragedy where someone might have to compassionately euthanize a child or elderly person can change a pro-life perspective. I have had this experience myself. Try not to be so dismissive and tribal about this.

Needing a traumatic outside experience to stop being a hateful bigot does not excuse the bigotry. I'm also not gonna sit down, shut up and patiently wait for destiny to tell ignorant bigoted idiots that they're wrong. I'd rather do it myself.

Bigots are a cancer to society in general and their targets in particular. Fuck coddling or defending them.
 
Jan 20, 2019
10,681
No.
That is simply the ideal image of a role model example of the "Aryan race". A lot of Nazis weren't blonde or had blue eyes though, Hitler himself had dark brown hair.
The Nazi ideology is simply that Germanic peoples are the master race. That's all there is to it. They considered all Germanic/Nordic peoples to be superior, considered various other peoples to be a step below (French, British, several Mediterranean peoples such as Italians and Persians) but still good, and also respected Chinese and Japanese.
Subhumans included Jews, Roma/Sinti and Slavic peoples that were to be exterminated or expelled. They were targeting a specific group of peoples as being subhuman that were to be removed.
Obviously they used things like looks or names as determining factor whether someone was subhuman. But it wasn't just blonde, fair-skinned, blue-eyed and tall that was considered "Aryan" - it just was admirable traits.

And the thing is, even though today's alt-right/white supremacy does not condemn Slavs like the German Nazis did, it still follows the same footsteps, the same ideals, the same rhetoric, the same end goal - violence and genocide against those deemed subhuman. The only difference is that brown people have now taken the place of Slavs because Slavs are white, and Putin also is a very powerful and influential ally of these hatemonger groups.

Yes you are rigth, what this peopel follow is a different version from the nazi one.
 

Jecht

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,650
Also I'm surpirsed that alt and burner account are able to get on ResetERA so quickly, I was under the impression their was a waiting time before you could fully register, I remember having to wait 3 days or so to avoid situations like this? Did ERA change its policies since then?

A lot of the burner accounts are a few months old, some you find are even from around the site formation.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
You're referring to factoids and I'm referring to life experiences.
Oh no, I'm referring to "facts". Fuck me for using literal facts.

Having a personal relationship with someone who is part of a group targeted by their bigotry forces a shift.

No, it doesn't always. At all. And this being the result:

It might be a small one ("one of the good ones")

Isn't a positive outcome. Hell, that's exactly where they started if they had bigoted views in the first place. They already see some people as "the good ones". Tons of racists have "Black friends" because they don't see them as immediate threats. They are the "good ones" because they aren't getting in the way of their bigotry.

Having a tragedy where someone might have to compassionately euthanize a child or elderly person can change a pro-life perspective.
No, it doesn't always. We just had news stories of kids who have nearly died from diseases that could have been easily prevented by vaccines, and at the end the parents literally decide "we still aren't getting our kids vaccinated". They do not learn when it's literally their own fucking children.

Their beliefs aren't based on a rational experience. So you can't break their beliefs with a different rational experience. They have invented the reason why they hate, and they'll invent more reasons if you try and break them down.

I have had this experience myself. Try not to be so dismissive and tribal about this.

You are literally dismissing me for pointing out factual studies on how this works, you ironically are doing exactly what it shows, you dive deeper into your beliefs the moment you are confronted with the contrary. Fuck off.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
Seems to be once a season we have pdp nazi thread, and get to clear out some other the trash. Its therapeutic, but honestly how does this guys still have so many stans? In what universe is pdp not a nazi sympathizer and alt-right propaganda machine. Who believes this?
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
Seems to be once a season we have pdp nazi thread, and get to clear out some other the trash. Its therapeutic, but honestly how does this guys still have so many stans? In what universe is pdp not a nazi sympathizer and alt-right propaganda machine. Who believes this?

89 million people, and many of them will defend him at all costs.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Seems to be once a season we have pdp nazi thread, and get to clear out some other the trash. Its therapeutic, but honestly how does this guys still have so many stans? In what universe is pdp not a nazi sympathizer and alt-right propaganda machine. Who believes this?

Dude, assuming this

everyone is so woke, pdp was framed, its a set-up

is sarcasm, you really should clarify. You never know in these threads.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
Seems to be once a season we have pdp nazi thread, and get to clear out some other the trash. Its therapeutic, but honestly how does this guys still have so many stans? In what universe is pdp not a nazi sympathizer and alt-right propaganda machine. Who believes this?
It's a function of the status quo. White men in positions of influence or power bigoted or not always have a force ready to come to their aid & defend them. They draw like-minded individuals who see themselves in the people they follow. It's automatic and is the result of centuries and centuries of reinforcement. If more men like PDP were open about actually taking criticism and reevalutating their ideals, it'd go a long way to instilling that kind of self-reflection in the rest of the population.
 

HiredN00bs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
826
Laurel, MD
User Banned (3 Days): Antagonistic behavior over a series of posts
Oh no, I'm referring to "facts". Fuck me for using literal facts.



No, it doesn't always. At all. And this being the result:



Isn't a positive outcome. Hell, that's exactly where they started if they had bigoted views in the first place. They already see some people as "the good ones". Tons of racists have "Black friends" because they don't see them as immediate threats. They are the "good ones" because they aren't getting in the way of their bigotry.


No, it doesn't always. We just had news stories of kids who have nearly died from diseases that could have been easily prevented by vaccines, and at the end the parents literally decide "we still aren't getting our kids vaccinated". They do not learn when it's literally their own fucking children.

Their beliefs aren't based on a rational experience. So you can't break their beliefs with a different rational experience. They have invented the reason why they hate, and they'll invent more reasons if you try and break them down.



You are literally dismissing me for pointing out factual studies on how this works, you ironically are doing exactly what it shows, you dive deeper into your beliefs the moment you are confronted with the contrary. Fuck off.
Nice try.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
ofc its sarcasm its lol hilarious when someone comes in here posting it was a false flag.
 

Deleted member 6949

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,786
Also I'm surpirsed that alt and burner account are able to get on ResetERA so quickly, I was under the impression their was a waiting time before you could fully register, I remember having to wait 3 days or so to avoid situations like this? Did ERA change its policies since then?


I clicked on 2 and they were both made in 2017 and had fewer than 5 posts.

Just imagine the kind of person that spends 2 years patiently laying the groundwork to shitpost about some shooting victims. It makes me wonder what their real Era accounts are. Straight up sociopath behavior.
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
thats not true, Japan signed a treat that they should talk to Japan about a possible invasion in USSR, germany ignored japan didnt even cared, and only to put in perspective USA was very racist against japanese and chinese, germany was no different, its not because Japan was germany ally that they didnt think that they are inferior.
Only after japan turned into a super power after WW2 the racism got smaller against japanese/chinese in the western world.

Hitler himself said he had great respect for China and Japan, that he never regarded them as inferior to the Germanic peoples, and that their history outdoes those of the Germanic people.
There had been a struggle between certain parts of Nazi Germany whether to consider Japanese to be exempt from the Nuremberg laws or not, and even though several high-ranking Nazi officials considered Japan to be equal to Germany, there still were certain discriminatory laws.

It wasn't nearly as cut and dry with the Japanese as it was with other races.

Yes you are rigth, what this peopel follow is a different version from the nazi one.

Yeah, it's 100% different from Nazi ideology because the Nazis only wanted to eradicate all Jews, LGBT+, disabled, black and Slavic people, while white supremacists want to eradicate all Jews, LGBT+, disabled, black and brown people.
No similarities here.
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
No.
That is simply the ideal image of a role model example of the "Aryan race". A lot of Nazis weren't blonde or had blue eyes though, Hitler himself had dark brown hair.
The Nazi ideology is simply that Germanic peoples are the master race. That's all there is to it. They considered all Germanic/Nordic peoples to be superior, considered various other peoples to be a step below (French, British, several Mediterranean peoples such as Italians and Persians) but still good, and also respected Chinese and Japanese.
Subhumans included Jews, Roma/Sinti and Slavic peoples that were to be exterminated or expelled. They were targeting a specific group of peoples as being subhuman that were to be removed.
Obviously they used things like looks or names as determining factor whether someone was subhuman. But it wasn't just blonde, fair-skinned, blue-eyed and tall that was considered "Aryan" - it just was admirable traits.

And the thing is, even though today's alt-right/white supremacy does not condemn Slavs like the German Nazis did, it still follows the same footsteps, the same ideals, the same rhetoric, the same end goal - violence and genocide against those deemed subhuman. The only difference is that brown people have now taken the place of Slavs because Slavs are white, and Putin also is a very powerful and influential ally of these hatemonger groups.

Thats Nazi eugenics.

Nazi philosophy was much more mundane:
- National identity and cultural identity above all.
- A strong state to protect it
- Freedom within the limits of the general interests of nation and culture
- Germany first
- We are better than everyone else and should therefore only concern us with our own goals, regardless of the interests of others

This was the core philosophy. Basically a form of populist, authoritarian nationalism.
WW2, the Holocaust, eugenics etc were all just specific consequences of this ideology.

You find Nazi ideology in mainstream politics in countless countries today, but its rarely identified as Nazi ideology because many people have created this caricature of inherent evil out of Nazis and don't even understand what kind of ideology it actually was that infected millions upon millions of people and enabled them to commit the atrocities of WW2.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
You find Nazi ideology in mainstream politics in countless countries today, but its rarely identified as Nazi ideology because many people have created this caricature of inherent evil out of Nazis and don't even understand what kind of ideology it actually was that infected millions upon millions of people and enabled them to commit the atrocities of WW2.
You just said it all right here. Its also the reason we have president shit-for-brains. MAGA is a desire to return (never left) to this ideology.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
i keep seeing this reddit post pop up in "defense" of pewdiepie
D1vgbh-XcAI6vhc.jpg

like, its complete nonsense, right?

edit: should probably clarify; i want to either debunk this or at least have something to say in response to it because
1) finding the manifesto at all to even see if there's a source to this claim is hard
2) it is complete nonsense. the problem is it is an easy way to reframe the entire pewdiepie argument as something that the terrorist wants and thats bad
3) even if it was completely true, pewdiepie should still be held somewhat responsible as he never bothered to distance himself away from the alt-right

I don't think they're wrong although 95%+ confident that they're using it for shitty purposes. I think the attack was very targeted to try to accelerate the radicalization of people like the attackers, and a consequence of it could be further alienation of the people who are vulnerable to this kind of radicalization. Kind of the Angry Jack scenario. "All I do is subscribe to Pewdiepie and people are saying I'm a bad person. Fuck them!"

The campaign against this whole alt-right sphere needs to be stepped up because it's a dangerous situation overall.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
Hitler himself said he had great respect for China and Japan, that he never regarded them as inferior to the Germanic peoples, and that their history outdoes those of the Germanic people.
There had been a struggle between certain parts of Nazi Germany whether to consider Japanese to be exempt from the Nuremberg laws or not, and even though several high-ranking Nazi officials considered Japan to be equal to Germany, there still were certain discriminatory laws.

It wasn't nearly as cut and dry with the Japanese as it was with other races.



Yeah, it's 100% different from Nazi ideology because the Nazis only wanted to eradicate all Jews, LGBT+, disabled, black and Slavic people, while white supremacists want to eradicate all Jews, LGBT+, disabled, black and brown people.
No similarities here.
Hitler had interest in both countries, he was saying that for diplomacy, he said a bunch of stuff that's not true in the end, i have readed an interview of hitler where he said to the jews to not worry he doesn't hate them.
 

HiredN00bs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
826
Laurel, MD
You could at least pretend to actually want to respond to anything I said, rather than show further you weren't here in good faith.


Given how the thread is gone, obvious "jokes" aren't exactly so obvious anymore.
You've demonstrated an uncivil demeanor and are vastly overstating claims. Those two things combined are the chocolate and peanut butter of disengagement for me.
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
The poster I was quoting was specifically referring to the racial aspect.
And you also forgot to mention that Nazi Germany was turbocapitalist and privatized basically all of the state-owned firms, mostly towards Nazi cronies and companies owned by the Nazi Party itself.

The racial aspect of nazi ideology was an extremely simple concept of superiority. And because Nazis were not stupid they tried to rationalize it the best way they could and came up with a pseudoscience in eugenics.

Hitler realized the potential of capitalism as a tool, but he absolutely loathed the concept of a free market and competition. He loved the industrialization brought by capitalism, but he certainly didn't like capitalism.
He also didn't like socialism, even though he realized the populist potential of the term at the time and put it in the name of his party. He had the remaining socialists in his party killed in 1934, though.
Volkswagen is a pretty good illustration of this dichotomy. On the one hand Hitler used capitalist mechanisms and a industrialized way of production, but he did it not with a free market and competition in mind, but with the nationalist goal of providing every german with a car, because thats fitting for a supposed master race. So he ended up with industrialized mass production in best capitalist style, but to achieve an almost communist goal of providing every citizen with the same car in best planned economy style.

The core ideology Hitler followed was nationalism. Nazi ideology was completely built around a nationalist core, everything they did and said was in a nationalist context.
Nazism and nationalism should be completely connected terms.
When Trump says he is a nationalist, it means nothing else than that he is a Nazi. Just without the context of 1930s Germany. Ideologically you can't get any closer.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
Thats Nazi eugenics.

Nazi philosophy was much more mundane:
- National identity and cultural identity above all.
- A strong state to protect it
- Freedom within the limits of the general interests of nation and culture
- Germany first
- We are better than everyone else and should therefore only concern us with our own goals, regardless of the interests of others

This was the core philosophy. Basically a form of populist, authoritarian nationalism.
WW2, the Holocaust, eugenics etc were all just specific consequences of this ideology.

You find Nazi ideology in mainstream politics in countless countries today, but its rarely identified as Nazi ideology because many people have created this caricature of inherent evil out of Nazis and don't even understand what kind of ideology it actually was that infected millions upon millions of people and enabled them to commit the atrocities of WW2.
This is the best way to put it. These two articles (1 & 2) and the book Hitler's American Model go into how there was/is near zero separation between the ideologies of the Nazis and those found in American bigotry, even more that American bigotry was just straight up the foundation that Nazi's built their rhetoric on:

The Atlantic said:
Whitman, a professor at Yale Law School, wanted to know how the United States, a country grounded in such liberal principles as individual rights and the rule of law, could have produced legal ideas and practices "that seemed intriguing and attractive to Nazis." In exploring this apparent incongruity, his short book raises important questions about law, about political decisions that affect the scope of civic membership, and about the malleability of Enlightenment values.

Pushing back against scholarship that downplays the impact in Nazi Germany of the U.S. model of legal racism, Whitman marshals an array of evidence to support the likelihood "that the Nuremberg Laws themselves reflect direct American influence." As race law's global leader, Whitman stresses, America provided the most obvious point of reference for the September 1933 Preußische Denkschrift, the Prussian Memorandum, written by a legal team that included Roland Freisler, soon to emerge as the remarkably cruel president of the Nazi People's Court. American precedents also informed other crucial Nazi texts, including the National Socialist Handbook for Law and Legislation of 1934–35, edited by the future governor-general of Poland, Hans Frank, who was later hung at Nuremberg. A pivotal essay in that volume, Herbert Kier's recommendations for race legislation, devoted a quarter of its pages to U.S. legislation—which went beyond segregation to include rules governing American Indians, citizenship criteria for Filipinos and Puerto Ricans as well as African Americans, immigration regulations, and prohibitions against miscegenation in some 30 states. No other country, not even South Africa, possessed a comparably developed set of relevant laws.


Especially significant were the writings of the German lawyer Heinrich Krieger, "the single most important figure in the Nazi assimilation of American race law," who spent the 1933–34 academic year in Fayetteville as an exchange student at the University of Arkansas School of Law. Seeking to deploy historical and legal knowledge in the service of Aryan racial purity, Krieger studied a range of overseas race regimes, including contemporary South Africa, but discovered his foundation in American law. His deeply researched writings about the United States began with articles in 1934, some concerning American Indians and others pursuing an overarching assessment of U.S. race legislation—each a precursor to his landmark 1936 book, Das Rassenrecht in den Vereingten Staaten ("Race Law in the United States").

Whitman's "smoking gun" is the transcript of a June 5, 1934, conference of leading German lawyers gathered to exchange ideas about how best to operationalize a racist regime. The record reflects how the most extreme among them, who relied on Krieger's synoptic scholarship, were especially drawn to American legal codes based on white supremacy. The main conceptual idea was Freisler's. Race, he argued, is a political construction. In both America and Germany, the importance and meaning of race for the most part had been determined less by scientific realities or social conventions than by political decisions enshrined in law.
 
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Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,923
Canada
You're referring to factoids and I'm referring to life experiences. Having a personal relationship with someone who is part of a group targeted by their bigotry forces a shift. It might be a small one ("one of the good ones") or a large one ("I was wrong about this"). Having a tragedy where someone might have to compassionately euthanize a child or elderly person can change a pro-life perspective. I have had this experience myself. Try not to be so dismissive and tribal about this.

This is mind-blowingly dumb. Life isn't a movie, dude. There's no clean redemptive arc. Most of these shitheads will never actually interact with the people they hate, let alone form a relationship with them only to see them face adversity. And why should they have to face adversity so the shithead can learn something? They're not here to teach anyone else a lesson.

Fuck off with this shit.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
You're referring to factoids and I'm referring to life experiences.

That's an interesting way to put it, but I guess "you're referring to published studies, I'm referring to anecdotal evidence" doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

Turns out that our estimations of how often we, or any other person, change our minds when confronted with opposing facts, tends to be way off:
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/buixYfcXBah9hbSNZ/we-change-our-minds-less-often-than-we-think
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
Hitler had interest in both countries, he was saying that for diplomacy, he said a bunch of stuff that's not true in the end, i have readed an interview of hitler where he said to the jews to not worry he doesn't hate them.

Obviously a lot of these statements were made to appease the Japanese as an ally, but there still was a big push from various ministries and Nazi figureheads to exempt Japanese from the Nuremberg laws, but these reforms were ultimately blocked by the Racial Policy Office.
That said, it doesn't really matter in the long run, whether Nazis really thought the Japanese were fine or if it was just a decoy to make good with their allies. They were racist shitheads either way.
It also wasn't even really the central point of the post I made, which was that the Nazis didn't wage war against all races, just against specific ones that they deemed subhuman, and that the whole "blonde, blue-eyed" thing wasn't as central a point of their racial ideology as that poster I quoted made it out to be.

The racial aspect of nazi ideology was an extremely simple concept of superiority. And because Nazis were not stupid they tried to rationalize it the best way they could and came up with a pseudoscience in eugenics.

Hitler realized the potential of capitalism as a tool, but he absolutely loathed the concept of a free market and competition. He loved the industrialization brought by capitalism, but he certainly didn't like capitalism.
He also didn't like socialism, even though he realized the populist potential of the term at the time and put it in the name of his party. He had the remaining socialists in his party killed in 1934, though.
Volkswagen is a pretty good illustration of this dichotomy. On the one hand Hitler used capitalist mechanisms and a industrialized way of production, but he did it not with a free market and competition in mind, but with the nationalist goal of providing every german with a car, because thats fitting for a supposed master race. So he ended up with industrialized mass production in best capitalist style, but to achieve an almost communist goal of providing every citizen with the same car in best planned economy style.

The core ideology Hitler followed was nationalism. Nazi ideology was completely built around a nationalist core, everything they did and said was in a nationalist context.
Nazism and nationalism should be completely connected terms.
When Trump says he is a nationalist, it means nothing else than that he is a Nazi. Just without the context of 1930s Germany. Ideologically you can't get any closer.

Oh I am very well aware of the nationalist ideology that was the basis of the Nazi party, and how the "socialism" part was just a naming convention to make themselves more appealing.
Again, I was just trying to respond to the poster I quoted in saying that the racially-based ideology of the Nazis wasn't targeting everyone that wasn't blonde and blue-eyed, but certain races they deemed inferior, and that the blonde and blue-eyed thing was simply seen as admirable traits, but not as the centerpiece of their racial ideology.

And thank you for the additional information - obviously there wasn't supposed to be a "free market", but it certainly mirrors corporate capitalism and cronyism that we have today, which is why I specifically brought up turbo-capitalism, since in the end, it was a specific group of people at the top controlling the entire economy and profiting off of it. Even though Hitler wanted everyone to have a car.
 
Jan 20, 2019
10,681
User Banned (2 Weeks): Downplaying hate speech and antagonizing other members over a series of posts
Hitler himself said he had great respect for China and Japan, that he never regarded them as inferior to the Germanic peoples, and that their history outdoes those of the Germanic people.
There had been a struggle between certain parts of Nazi Germany whether to consider Japanese to be exempt from the Nuremberg laws or not, and even though several high-ranking Nazi officials considered Japan to be equal to Germany, there still were certain discriminatory laws.

It wasn't nearly as cut and dry with the Japanese as it was with other races.



Yeah, it's 100% different from Nazi ideology because the Nazis only wanted to eradicate all Jews, LGBT+, disabled, black and Slavic people, while white supremacists want to eradicate all Jews, LGBT+, disabled, black and brown people.
No similarities here.

It was a mistake talking to you on the first place you cant see dlthe difference.

Have a nice day.
 

Mathiassen

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
257
I clicked on 2 and they were both made in 2017 and had fewer than 5 posts.

Just imagine the kind of person that spends 2 years patiently laying the groundwork to shitpost about some shooting victims. It makes me wonder what their real Era accounts are. Straight up sociopath behavior.
Burners are coming out, obviously. But post count gatekeeping is just stupid. And calling someone out based on it devalues their initial post.
 

Kirroyal88

Member
Oct 25, 2018
17
I clicked on 2 and they were both made in 2017 and had fewer than 5 posts.

Just imagine the kind of person that spends 2 years patiently laying the groundwork to shitpost about some shooting victims. It makes me wonder what their real Era accounts are. Straight up sociopath behavior.


I think we need to be more careful in judging these things based on post count, I too barely post on Era but nobody brought that up since i am already leaning towards the majority of opinion stated in here.

Sure there are many trolls whose sole existence is to spread hate and wont change their twisted mind no matter what, but there might be some who probably lack critical thinking or perhaps just a kid and came here genuinely looking for answers.
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
This is the best way to put it. These two articles (1 & 2) and the book Hitler's American Model go into how there was near zero seperation between the ideologies of the Nazis and those found in American bigotry, even more that American bigotry was just straight up the foundation that Nazi's built their rhetoric on:

Yep, thats also one of the reasons why it took so long for the US to recognize the threat the Nazis posed.
Their ideology was actually very similar to American nationalism, but while American nationalism was basically only challenged by the presence of African Americans who didn't fit the nationalists concept of an American, Germany was much closer to possible conflict. So while the US didn't turn its violent potential outwards but only inwards towards African Americans and a few other groups, Germany quickly turned its violent potential outwards because it felt that it had to secure it owns nationalist interests.

A good read on Nazi ideology is actually Carl Schmitt, Hitlers leading political theorist who provided the theoretical academic framework for what the Nazis did.


A few starting points:
Schmitt's famous, or notorious, definition: "Sovereign is he who decides on the exception." By "exception", Schmitt means the appropriate moment for stepping outside the rule of law in the public interest

Through the state of exception, Schmitt included all types of violence under right, in the case of the authority of Hitler leading to the formulation "The leader defends the law" ("Der Führer schützt das Recht").

Schmitt, in perhaps his best-known formulation, bases his conceptual realm of state sovereignty and autonomy upon the distinction between friend and enemy. This distinction is to be determined "existentially", which is to say that the enemy is whoever is "in a specially intense way, existentially something different and alien, so that in the extreme case conflicts with him are possible."[4] Such an enemy need not even be based on nationality: so long as the conflict is potentially intense enough to become a violent one between political entities, the actual substance of enmity may be anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Schmitt

You could go on US TV today and read them Carl Schmitt and you'd come off as just another talking head from one of god knows how many right wing think tanks. It would be completely normal.

Now lets looks at Schmitts influence beyond Nazi Germany:

Some have argued that neoconservativism has been influenced by Schmitt.[47] Most notably the legal opinions offered by Alberto Gonzales, John Yoo et al. by invoking the unitary executive theory to justify highly controversial policies in the war on terror—such as introducing unlawful combatant status which purportedly would eliminate protection by the Geneva Conventions,[48] torture, NSA electronic surveillance program—mimic his writings.

has asserted that Schmitt's work has greatly influenced Eurasianist philosophy in Russia by revealing a counter to the liberal order.

And this is where things get interesting. What is modern eurasianist philosophy? Its basically the civilizational ideology Russia aims to establish again. Putin believes that every world power needs to have an ideology it wants to bring to the world and over the past 15 years the ideology Russia settled on is basically authoritarian nationalism.
Despite state mandated atheism in the Soviet Union, the Russian Orthodox Church(ROC) has assumed an extremely powerful role in post-soviet Russia. Even though Russians still aren't very religious in the sense that they believe in a deity, they view the ROC as a part of Russian national identity.
A few quotes from representatives of the ROC:
ROC Spokesperson:
multiconfessionality, multiparty systems, separation of powers, competition, administrative conflicts—all that the present political system takes such pride in—are symptoms of spiritual unhealthiness. The very existence of a pluralistic democracy is none other than a direct result of sin

Moscow Patriarch Kirill:
the fundamental contradiction of our epoch...is the opposition of liberal civilized standards on the one hand(western ideology), and the values of national, cultural and religious identity on the other(Russian ideology)

Putin has definitely realized that the key to undermining the western ideological integrity is nationalism. Because its deeply anti-western and per definition rejects almost the entire value foundation of the West, yet it is extremely popular in the West and often believed to be reconcilable with western ideology. We even invented another term for it to obfuscate the connection to atrocities: Patriotism.

Now I don't want to get into speculation about how deep the connection between Putin and the Trump campaign were, but from an ideological standpoint it would make all the sense in the world for Putin to support an American nationalist when his goal is to undermine western values and the integrity and stability of western institutions like the EU and NATO.
And everything that happened since Trump becamePresident is perfectly in line with Putins interests.




How does that connect to what happened in Christchurch?

In order to invoke nationalist feelings in people you need to have a scapegoat. Some sort of enemy or threat to the nation.
In Nazi Germany the Jews were used for this. Today it's Muslims or non-white immigrants as a whole.
So its no surprise that you see Russia supporting virtually every right wing, anti-immigrant party in Europe.
I also wouldn't be surprised if the main goal of Russia in Syria is to keep the region unstable so that the refugee crisis remains a factor fueling the shift to the right in Europe, further spreading anti-western nationalist ideology, further weakening the EU.

Nothing is Russias military arsenal as effective in fighting the West as nationalist ideology.
 
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Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
Putin has definitely realized that the key to undermining the western ideological integrity is nationalism. Because its deeply anti-western and per definition rejects almost the entire value foundation of the West, yet it is extremely popular in the West and often believed to be reconcilable with western ideology. We even invented another term for it to obfuscate the connection to atrocities: Patriotism.

Now I don't want to get into speculation about how deep the connection between Putin and the Trump campaign were, but from an ideological standpoint it would make all the sense in the world for Putin to support an American nationalist when his goal is to undermine western values and the integrity and stability of western institutions like the EU and NATO.
And everything that happened since Trump becamePresident is perfectly in line with Putins interests:

That's also the reason why Russia is bankrolling the the rightwingers in EU countries, like Le Pen, UKIP or Austria's FPÖ, and why all of these parties and organizations - including those of the US - are admiring Putin, and heavily entangled with Russia.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
You've demonstrated an uncivil demeanor and are vastly overstating claims. Those two things combined are the chocolate and peanut butter of disengagement for me.

You mean rather than actually engage with criticism, you immediately jump to the first thing you can find to try and discredit me without actually engaging the subject, and then bow out because you don't want to actually argue against it.

No one is fooled by this routine. Literally fucking nobody.

Don't you think this is why I write posts like this? To see who's being honest in their beliefs and willing to defend them even against the face of callousness, versus those who want to make driveby dismissive comments that amount to "both sides" and then jump at the first opportunity to bail without having to defend them, showing how much in bad faith they were posting in the first place.

You came in and tried to argue, in the year of our lord 2019, a year where Donald J Trump is the US President, that bigoted people change their ways when faced with the realization of their bigotry.

That's absolutely fucking moronic and not backed up either by science or by societal examples.

People changed when they, directly, are faced with the consequences of their actions. And I don't mean indirectly, like "I had to euthanize my child", emotional kind of consequences. I mean directly, as in "The government is going to punish me because I refused to vaccinate my kids". If the person themselves are not DIRECTLY faced with consequences, there is no drive to change. Absolutely none. Humans do learn from mistakes, but they don't learn when the punishment for the mistake is on someone else.

So what drive does PDP have to change, if we aren't willing to hold his feet to the fire for the years of stoking those very flames? He's done stupid shit before, got caught, apologized, then proceeded to do exactly the same damn things over and over again. He might be only 1 voice of the many out there spreading hateful messages, and he's definitely not the most vitriolic of them, but he's by and far the largest.

He's not going to change unless he is forced to, and no amount of "compassion" should be shown for someone who willingly refused to stop despite being made clear to him repeatedly this was the ultimate conclusion to what he's done.

I think we need to be more careful in judging these things based on post count, I too barely post on Era but nobody brought that up since i am already leaning towards the majority of opinion stated in here.

It's never "just" post count, it's a clear choice of words and sentence structure that you can pretty accurately guess where those users are going to go in their arguments. Pointing out the post count is just a quick, reductive way of making that implication. It shouldn't be done to literally everybody, but when someone writes an extremely defensive post about PDP, and you look to the post count to see <5 despite having an account for the past year (or on the flip side, an account made within the last 48 hours), or their only posts seem to be drivebys in threads like these, you can likely tell what's happening.
 
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