• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Rean

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,329
I'm pretty sure if you are in full cover in XCOM, you can sidestep to hit an enemy but the enemy can't just shoot at the tile next to you to hit you. Or XCOM somehow visualizes it very differently.
nah, aliens still shoot to adjacent tiles, so if cover has an open space to either left or right - it means you will get shot at.
however i've never seen alines shoot "behind" you aka the tile thats off the wall. and i've seen that plenty in doctrine
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
2,780
Came across this blog post of the designer talking about these LOS issues http://www.creativeforge.pl/cfg-blog/2018/8/17/the-phantom-wallhack

Really interesting but the takeaway is that every character is actually on every adjacent tile as far as shooting and being shot is concerned.

Maybe they should have added it as an action in game, you would choose if your character stays in cover or steps out of it with a button (which gives them increased line of sight, but also makes them vulnerable to fire).
 

eddy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,741
I realize it's not "simply do X instead", but if you're doing it this way you absolutely need to sync up the sounds and animations to match the modeled behaviour, or the visual feedback is basically
nonsense, and the experience rubbish. Even then, having someone in full cover behind a concrete wall lean out just to take a shot in the face, just doesn't feel right no matter how you slice it.

sdagdigwrgi.jpg


Blog caption to this image: "Both characters sidestep to our right and through the door and window LOS exists". Okay, if that's the case, why is there a line going through walls?

Just to rant a bit; Maybe I misunderstood, but it seems like they're projecting the player out in two directions? Projecting one square (i.e _a_ lean direction) seems like it's make more sense to me. The omni-directional free-sidestep adds to the crazy.

All the issues with LoS and not seeing someone around a corner to me is a different issue from LoF and should probably not be modelled the same way. Knowing where someone is and being able to hit them with a bullet are not the same thing. ''This is how we've always done it (XCOM, etc)'', but I've played XCOM and there are shots there which feel very bad too, and I don't mean RNG, so why copy that?

Wish they'd gone back to first principles and derived a system based on ray-casting for LoF. You could calculate someones exposed area pretty well I would think. Model sound and you can have an idea of where an enemy is even if you don't have LoS (moving fast -> bigger sound radius, etc).
 

Rean

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,329
Wish they'd gone back to first principles and derived a system based on ray-casting for LoF. You could calculate someones exposed area pretty well I would think. Model sound and you can have an idea of where an enemy is even if you don't have LoS (moving fast -> bigger sound radius, etc).
i'd argue thats way too complex and requires a lot more work, and they dont nearly have enough staff, time and money to do it

add: btw i just realised game has no "hunker down" button and that is really weird
 
Last edited:

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
I complained earlier that character progression seemed uninsteresting because it would be cool to turn my agents into super-spies. Now further into the game, let me correct that:
You totally can turn agents into super-spies: more health, actor + disguise and you are unstoppable, turning the game into a puzzle of how to kill people without other people seeing you doing it, but not having to worry about them spotting you.
It is where I am finding the fun in the game, to solve these puzzles and leaving the levels without sounding the alarm, which I am doing fairly frequently.
That said, in order to create a super-spy, you need to get lucky with the perks, which are randonmized and that's just not good, imo.

Speaking of perks, the vast majority of them are so situational they border on useless.
 

eddy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,741
Alex Navarro talks a bit about his experience with the game on today's Beastcast (episode 169), starting ~27 minutes in (sans ads).
 

Opium

Member
Oct 30, 2017
220
They should've just said from the beginning that open all guns out combat is not the main focus of the game and should be avoided at all cost, because the mechanics are shit, the cover, the guns, the enemy los are shit, the frustration ARGH everything about it is fucking shit! Thankfully in about 20 hours there's only been about 2 missions where I got put in direct combat so all good so far.

The whole fun in the game consists in stealthily making your way across the map, clearing objectives, getting all the loot & intel and extracting enemy agents alive without alarming guards or killing civilians. Capturing enemy agents rewards with a lot of intel, don't bother using agents for investigation work. Better equipment and more upgrades are available this way, faster & easier than doing combat stuff. Hire agents with actor/++health, switch weapon respec to pistols BM76 then Cobra (only pistols have the ability to headshot for way bigger damage, making other guns useless), you find plenty of suppressors if clearing all the loot. Scatter more agents in locations around the globe so you get plenty of reaction time for recon before going for map assault, that way you can use disguises and have the map already discovered. Oh and use body engineering upgrades as soon as they are available.
 

Rean

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,329
i actually hate that you can "disrupt enemy ops" on global map by assigning 2 agents to do a task, and each of them gets 10xp and thats it.
when for the same 10h you can do a recon, then easy af assault that gives you 5-6 loot pieces (that you can sell), tons of intel and another bonus if you kidnap enemy agent.

btw proitp: you can kidnap ANY enemy agent even if your task doesnt require you to do it (they are marked as the only enemies who have awareness by default). sometimes there are 2-3 of them on each mission
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,985
i actually hate that you can "disrupt enemy ops" on global map by assigning 2 agents to do a task, and each of them gets 10xp and thats it.
when for the same 10h you can do a recon, then easy af assault that gives you 5-6 loot pieces (that you can sell), tons of intel and another bonus if you kidnap enemy agent.

btw proitp: you can kidnap ANY enemy agent even if your task doesnt require you to do it (they are marked as the only enemies who have awareness by default). sometimes there are 2-3 of them on each mission
Cheers for this, didn't know it was possible
 

Opium

Member
Oct 30, 2017
220
I disrupt enemy ops when I have agents in training or if I'm not in a mood of doing side-missions and just want to advance the story.

And another important thing, bring all the agents you possibly can on a mission even if you don't use them so they all get experience and level up faster. I usually use just 2 disguised agents and maybe another one to mop up loot after them.
 

Bo Neslek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,794
Canada's Ear
GOG offered to refund my purchase as 'GOG wallet funds', which works for me.

I hope the developers are able to fix/update the game.

Edit:

To expand on 'update'. The game has some very good ideas, and the setting is excellent. But there needs to be a reworking of the combat/tactical system from the ground up. It is terrible.
 
Last edited:

Joe Spangle

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,845
Ive been playing for a few hours this afternoon and im liking it but there are quite a few different systems to get your head around.
 

Shake Appeal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,883
The whole fun in the game consists in stealthily making your way across the map, clearing objectives, getting all the loot & intel and extracting enemy agents alive without alarming guards or killing civilians.
Right.

But there's already a turn-based spy-themed game where you do this, and the implementation is orders of magnitude better. And it's much more replayable.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
Yes LoS works mostly the same way in Xcom in that it's to the character AND the surrounding tiles. But the problem with Phantom Doctrine is this:

1) Since there are no pods, you could have enemies from the other end of the map shooting at you.

2) YOU personally can't tell if a tile you are going to is safe or not until you get to the tile and check for yourself if you have any LoS to an enemy. Ofcourse you can check if the surrounding tile to the place your are going to is in LoS of an enemy surrounding tile but it becomes hard at large distance and over multiple levels. This makes it difficult to tell if you are safe or not especially due to the isometric camera. There was this one instance where I was outside the building on the 1st floor, there were two enemies on the 2nd floor inside the building. Between me and them there was a full wall, However, that wall had a slight vent/window thing at the top. And because the enemie sinside were one level above me, they were able to get a LoS to me OUTSIDE. And enemy on 1st floor (i.e. same level as me) would not have that LoS. And while that's understandable, I can't actually tell whether I'm visible or not due to the the isometric camera.

3) Unlike Xcom it's not just the tile in front of you (the one you are peeking from) that exposes you but also the one behind you (this is hard to explain but Rean tried to explain this early in this page's first post).

4) All this is NOT visually represented with animations and instead you get gunfire through the wall which makes it feel very frustrating.

Another thing to note in Xcom is that when it comes to weird and long angles, the chances that the enemy would hit is really low, a 15-20% chance to hit is pretty much a given miss and even when they do hit the damage is on the lower end. In Doctrine it's a guaranteed hit (yea I know you can "dodge" it, which is equal to Xcom's missed target) but hits end up doing a lot more damage then what they should at that angle and range. I know they can be reduced as an operator gains experience and grazes/dodges more but just the way it's presented adds to the frustration.


EDIT: Imo Side step should only work one way i.e. only the shooter side steps to gain a wider LoS. This way the shooter can side step out and shoot but if the target is already in full cover (that also covers the shooter's LoS AFTER a potential sidestep from a shooter) then that LoS should be a no go and as such no hit for the shooter. This way the person can make sure that they are safe whenever they pick a tile/cover and that their character won't side step out to take a bullet to the face just because the adjacent tile of your character is in LoS of the adjacent tile of the shooter's. Check the two picture sbelow, if side stepping was limited to the shooter then only the first one would be a potential hit whereas the 2nd one would be invalid.


Like this is fine, because in this case the shooter can sidestep to get a direct LoS to the target and it feels "fair".
dddwe.png




This isn't, because not only the shooter side steps but the target side steps too to take a hit to the face which feels "unfair"
fereffee.jpg



Right.

But there's already a turn-based spy-themed game where you do this, and the implementation is orders of magnitude better. And it's much more replayable.
Invisible Inc?
 
Last edited:

Rean

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,329
can somebody explain mk ultra to me? it pissed me off so hard right now.

so by default when you capture agent, you get some info from him and then he gets killed as being useless. all free of charge

so now i built this interrogation "mk ultra" facility and:
-i have to spend 1000 PER AGENT to get any intel
-this intel doesnt seem so much different from the default one
-now i ALSO have to pay 500 to kill the agent after he is useless
-AND I AM CONSTANTLY BUILDING UP DANGER WHILE THEY ARE HELD

what is this nonsense? why the hell did i even build this shit?
...........what?
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,437
Upcoming Patch notes

Due to the balance implications, we're conducting additional tests of the Line of Sight system improvements. They also require modifications to the animation tree. Because of that, we'll publish the improvements in two stages. First the disabling of sidesteps for targets not in full cover (free sidesteps), then additional clarifications of LOS / LOF situations.

The first of the patches is expected during the weekend and should address a majority of the most confusing LOS situations. The second patch will require more work to bring it to the quality and stability we require so we expect it on Wednesday. Below is a preliminary set of patch notes for the two updates. We will incorporate as many as we can into the weekend patch, the rest and further improvemens will be released with the Wednesday update.

  • sidesteps for targets not in full cover removed [weekend patch: this will address a majority of reported LOF issues]
  • improvements in the clarity of sidesteps in full cover
  • weapon ranges reduced
  • increased visibility of CCTV consoles and loot / intel containers
  • the Blinding Laser ability now also reduces target awareness by 100
  • reinforcements no longer spawn too close to the player
  • corrections for the Italian, Spanish and French localizations
  • fixed: rare UI lock when transitioning from the investigation board to the world map
  • fixed: a block in specific circumstances while shooting in a cloud of gas
  • fixed: a sporadic progression error in specific instances during events related to Undertow
  • fixed: late completion of an optional objective in the KGB campaign now also yields a reward
  • map geometry improvements and fixes
  • various balancing tweaks and game improvemens]
  • improvements to dust storm effects

I'm enjoying this game so much in the strategy and stealth parts of it that once the combat is fixed I think it'll be really great.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
Upcoming Patch notes



I'm enjoying this game so much in the strategy and stealth parts of it that once the combat is fixed I think it'll be really great.
So they say they are disabling side steps for targets (which is what I suggested), but only for targets not in full cover implying that targets in full cover don't side step. However, here you can see the target being hit due to sidestepping (even if the animation doesn't show it) despite being in full cover.
 

eddy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,741
Sounds good, surprised they are apparently able to fix the issues so quickly. Then again, stuff like this is so ridiculous it's hard to understand how it made it into the final game.

Those improvements do sound very good.

I'm wondering if they designed this on 'paper' and/or prototyped in a block world. I bet if the game looked more abstract some of the sight abstractions wouldn't feel so... disconnected.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
I'm enjoying the game now that I've got the disguise ability and a decent number of agents. However, I feel like disguise has made the game a little too easy. Since there is no time limit in missions it's easy to just have one disguised agent with high health and a suppressed weapon do everything inside the restricted area and have some help from other agents to clear a path to extraction. Additionally, the game is repetitive as you are doing pretty much the same thing over and over be it in missions or in command centre. Avoiding combat seems to be the best thing to do but that only kind of takes away from the game as it makes the gameplay even less varied. Another thing is that the game's maps don't seem to be randomly generated so you could at times end up doing missions in a map that's exactly the same as a level in a prior mission.


Those improvements do sound very good.

I'm wondering if they designed this on 'paper' and/or prototyped in a block world. I bet if the game looked more abstract some of the sight abstractions wouldn't feel so... disconnected.
I wouldn't be surprised.
Additionally, as I stated before in a prior post, part of the reason the LoS thing is problematic is because it doesn't show it to you visually. As such you can't really tell if you are exposed or not, and the lack of proper animations wherein both characters side step out to make/take a hit leads to situations where the bullet goes through the wall. And while on paper that sounds fine, it's frustrating to see in gameplay.
 
Last edited:

Rean

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,329
a major tip
you know how on some missons you cant take out more than 1-2 guards or enemies will stop looking? well, YOU CAN. if you capture/incapacitate/kill all enemy agents, this condition will not trigger allowing you to kill pretty much anyone on map without raising alarm.
its a blessing on cell missions
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
a major tip
you know how on some missons you cant take out more than 1-2 guards or enemies will stop looking? well, YOU CAN. if you capture/incapacitate/kill all enemy agents, this condition will not trigger allowing you to kill pretty much anyone on map without raising alarm.
its a blessing on cell missions
Yea, also after a while they stop looking I think. It just so easy to clean house with a disguised agent.
 

Rean

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,329
i play on hard so i cant hide bodies. so i have to clean everything without even raising suspicion
 
Last edited:

GMM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,483
Played about six hours and I'm really digging the game, it's scratching that XCOM feeling, but feels totally fresh with the really fun stealth system. There is a lot to take in with the whole safehouse management and sending operatives around the globe, so I'm just playing it on normal ti learn it all.

The actual combat isn't that good, but it's a very little problem since i rarely have to engage with it as I savescum till I have stealthily completed a mission.

A big gripe I have right now is that I am forced to enter combat to take down certain enemy agents since they have more health than my operatives, so I always need one operative to shoot the enemy agents first and have another operative knock the person out. I don't know if this will change once I get access to surpressed firearms, but I really wish the game had an option to use multiple operatives to knock out an enemy with high health.
 

Opium

Member
Oct 30, 2017
220
a major tip
you know how on some missons you cant take out more than 1-2 guards or enemies will stop looking? well, YOU CAN. if you capture/incapacitate/kill all enemy agents, this condition will not trigger allowing you to kill pretty much anyone on map without raising alarm.
its a blessing on cell missions

Only enemy agents get suspicious if you start killing enemies. So the main tactic on any map is to look for and eliminate agents first then clear the map. Or an even better method in later missions when the enemy agent is most likely in a room full of regular guards, kill an enemy in a different part of the map to draw the agent out of that room.

I had a funny situation with 3 enemy agents on a map, where I had to takedown 2 of them in the same place in a single turn and by the time I had them stabilized and picked up the 3rd agent would come to investigate and found my agents carrying his buddies :)

A big gripe I have right now is that I am forced to enter combat to take down certain enemy agents since they have more health than my operatives, so I always need one operative to shoot the enemy agents first and have another operative knock the person out. I don't know if this will change once I get access to surpressed firearms, but I really wish the game had an option to use multiple operatives to knock out an enemy with high health.

Later on you will have the possibility to increase agents health by a level up upgrade which I recommend and with the help of some drug enhancements, my main char is at 126 health now. But if you have multiple agents with suppressed guns you can use breach and eliminate multiple guards/agents without raising alarm.
 
Last edited:

Rean

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,329
A big gripe I have right now is that I am forced to enter combat to take down certain enemy agents since they have more health than my operatives, so I always need one operative to shoot the enemy agents first and have another operative knock the person out. I don't know if this will change once I get access to surpressed firearms, but I really wish the game had an option to use multiple operatives to knock out an enemy with high health.
this will change when you'll be able to buff your agents health and find an agent with toughness perk
 

GMM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,483
Only enemy agents get suspicious if you start killing enemies. So the main tactic on any map is to look for and eliminate agents first then clear the map. Or an even better method in later missions when the enemy agent is most likely in a room full of regular guards, kill an enemy in a different part of the map to draw the agent out of that room.

I had a funny situation with 3 enemy agents on a map, where I had to takedown 2 of them in the same place in a single turn and by the time I had them stabilized and picked up the 3rd agent would come to investigate and found my agents carrying his buddies :)



Later on you will have the possibility to increase agents health by a level up upgrade which I recommend and with the help of some drug enhancements, my main char is at 126 health now. But if you have multiple agents with suppressed guns you can use breach and eliminate multiple guards/agents without raising alarm.
this will change when you'll be able to buff your agents health and find an agent with toughness perk

Yeah, I figured there would be some kind of solution, just ruins a bit of the fun right now when I have to silently take down every enemy in the level so I can take down the enemy agents and rush out of there to avoid my operatives from dying.

I think the game is awesome and so close to being something pretty special,I hope the developers are able to expand on the game in the coming months and fix the weaker parts of it.

I think it could help the stealth immensely if there was a state between Infiltration and Combat, like a Danger state. I imagine the Danger state would be applicable in situations where you are seen by an enemy on your turn or shoot an enemy with a silenced gun without killing them, you would then enter the combat state if you by the end of your turn fail to silence the person that saw you.
 

Rean

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,329
imma say this, game is already far too easy.
i am playing on hard and if you know what to do - game is just busywork. disguise+actor breaks the entire game, you just walk around doing whatever you want and then leave with perfect score. every. damn. time.

i played for 8 hours today and i still didnt fall into a single firefight. my agents are 130hp buff monsters and everything is a cakewalk.

i am on chapter 4 so i dont know maybe it gets harder later on. right now i am swimming in both cash and agents.
pro hint: as soon as you discover an informant, remove your agents from that area. if beholder tries to assassinate agent - recon + ops give you ton of loot, free new agent and intel on top
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
I think it could help the stealth immensely if there was a state between Infiltration and Combat, like a Danger state. I imagine the Danger state would be applicable in situations where you are seen by an enemy on your turn or shoot an enemy with a silenced gun without killing them, you would then enter the combat state if you by the end of your turn fail to silence the person that saw you.
Yea I want this too and was expecting it to be in here since it's a spy game. It was ok to not have this in XCOM because XCOM has pods so you can prevent all enemies from getting alerted at once. Then again game is already a cakewalk with disguise and high health agents, so not sure if this would make it better.
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
I like this game enough, but having a really hard time not getting bored with missions atm. I'm in chapter 1, agents with ~80-120 health, two silenced pistols among my whole roster, and one disguise unlocked, no actor, and every mission feels super trivial, with stealth limited only by my patience. I don't think invisible inc is an incredible, impossible to compete with stealth game, but I find myself wishing the game had more risks you were required to take and actions you were required to make to stay in stealth.

On the non-stealth side, starting to get a real handle on all of the esoterica of combat and finding myself consistently able to win big fights by keeping moving, rotating my agents with low awareness out of sight, and using a lot of my shots to manage the awareness of enemies. Works pretty well, and is pretty fun as a tactical game, but I seriously wish there were more options to break line of sight -- for a game so focused on stealth, the combat side of the game having virtually zero "combat stealth" is a bit of a disappointment.
 

Rean

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,329
wish there were more options to break line of sight
smoke grenades are OP af. so are assist smoke grenades.

and as soon as you unlock "outside snipers" assists, fights become really trivial. i have 3 outside snipers on each recon mission, each shot doing 100dmg. ez kills if things go south
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
Is there a way to turn/fix this mofo? I'm assuming I could do something with him using the MK Ultra. Funny enough in the last mission he didn't turn even when I engaged the enemies, maybe something to do with him being outside the restricted area or far away from other enemies?

DCOgyEa.jpg
 

Meowmixez

ESS ESS DEE
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,155
I don't see the point in complaining about the LOS when they are going to fix it pretty soon.
 

bobnowhere

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,526
Elsewhere for 8 minutes
Finished it last night, 56 hours or so, probably 20+% of that is leaving it on so around 40 hours seems right. Lots of interesting ideas and premise but you never really get enough information and you constantly feel in the dark. I really liked it but:
  • What are doomsday points? Are they the bar top left on the map? Never explained.
  • Solving case files is strangely fun but there is no lexicon, where do they go after you solved them? There should at least be some sort of key so you can remember who Desk Jockey is, where 81st Street was etc... Newer case files would make more sense with more information. Also, what is it with Hot Dogs?
  • Actors are completely OP. By the end, I had 4 actors in every mission with 140+ HP and 2 action points. They just strolled through levels, taking out and hiding the body in one go.
  • Drugs? Some work, some don't, is there a max number someone can take? Some required ones missing?
  • Can't ever upgrade to an 8th infirmary slot.
  • Sabotaging enemy agents is fun!
The game also ends suddenly without warning. Spoils here if you want to know the point of no return ->
The mission to Grenada is the last one and game ends afterwards.
 
Last edited:

Myradeer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,427
Canada
Actor and Blinding Laser is OP and trivializes the entire game, which is disappointing because I don't call struting around with "untouchable" status, with zero concerms about discovery, stealth.
 

bobnowhere

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,526
Elsewhere for 8 minutes
Actor and Blinding Laser is OP and trivializes the entire game, which is disappointing because I don't call struting around with "untouchable" status, with zero concerms about discovery, stealth.

They should have introduced an enemy type later on that at least has a chance to see through disguises, maybe goes around confronting people in restricted zones for their papers? If too many people go missing or the cameras go down a heightened level of security goes into effect where everyone is confronted and need to prove their ID not just agents walking around? They do introduce an enemy that is immune to takedown but he has 95 hp so a suppressed headshot does the same job.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
I don't get investigations sometimes. Look here for example, I have all the files (12/12) but I can't seem to finish it because there are no more matches left. What's going on here?


TRRj4eM.jpg

Additionally I'm a bit tired of investigating because after a while you start to notice the same code words everywhere and it can confuse you because you'd be like "Oh I've seen that before, where is it?" I know I can assign someone to do it, but it takes far more time that way and locks in one of my agents to a task that I can do on my own.