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Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,938
That's the thing: it doesn't matter if individuals within the company, including Spencer, care and actively want to make gaming and people's lives better out of the goodness of their hearts. Their presence and involvement within the company is predicated on them maximizing profit.

The company exists to make money, and everything else is a byproduct. If numbers start coming in that say Phil's approach is going to lose Microsoft money, he will be replaced. "Doing right by people" is allowed to continue as long as it makes the most cash possible. If it stops doing that, then it is shown the door.

This isn't a critique of the people working for Microsoft, this is a critique of shareholder-driven economics (of which all our favorite hardware makers are a part).

This is rediculously reductive. It's too easy to point to people in companies that don't actually care about making good games or doing right by people to show that outcomes are worse with people who don't care.

The system can be bad, but people who want to maximize revenue by making good things will have better outcomes for, well, everyone, than those who want to maximize revenue in any way possible.

If you want to frame every capitalist transaction as win-lose, then there is a vast gulf between 51-49 and 99-1.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,795
Not that I think Sony is doing poorly or will do poorly with this launch, but i will assume Microsoft will bring out all the stops while Sony will keep it pretty standard.
I don't know where you're seeing that but all I've heard from Xbox so far is that they want to have the most powerful console and are focused on delivering games to lots of different devices with their services. I have no idea what innovation Microsoft is going for in the XBX because they haven't talked about it yet. It seems like it's Xbox that is going for a standard fare launch. Sony looks to be focused on the exciting differentiators. They'll have VR. The DualShock 5 looks like it's going to look the same but also be quite different in terms of features. They'll have an SSD that sets new standards. They'll have exclusives that run from a very high baseline. And Jim Ryan said that "PS5's biggest and most unique features" are yet to be unveiled… that hardly sounds like standard to me. Like Microsoft they'll be focused on subscriptions and streaming. It sounds like the least complacency you can imagine from a company at the top.
 
Dec 9, 2018
21,058
New Jersey
Hot take: all of the console manufacturer chiefs are good dudes. Jim Ryan, Doug Bowser, and Phil Spencer have been pretty good for their companies as presidents
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,795
They never really explained unfortunately, fans/media never really question sonys moves so they got away with it. Also shu seems to be happy so I guess it wasn't that bad
1) "fans/media never really question sonys moves" - you are mistaken.
2) "they got away with it" - people aren't liable to explain why they choose to change jobs.

You not interested in why one of the best exec's went from running first party to an indie initiative?
It seems pretty obvious why someone at the point in his career would choose to work with and champion independent creators when it's always been something he's passionate about. You're close to retirement and you get the chance to follow one of your greatest passions before you can no longer do it. I don't think Shu needs hounding by anyone to explain himself when we can work it out for ourselves. I think he was cringing at you believing your own explanation as to why it was never explained though. I'm with him tbh.
 

SlayerSaint

Member
Jan 6, 2019
2,091
He seems like a cool dude and he's a good head for Xbox, ESPECIALLY after the disaster that was Mattrick. I like the direction Xbox has taken since he's taken over. That's about it.
 

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,651
Eventually you reach a point in your life where you completely understand that someone can be a nice guy and you think they're someone you'd get on well with, but you also realise that they work for a multi billion dollar corporation who are out to sell you products and services within their own walled garden and that they're a suit without a suit. The "hero worship" people put on video game executives is kind of weird.
 
Nov 11, 2017
2,744
1) "fans/media never really question sonys moves" - you are mistaken.
2) "they got away with it" - people aren't liable to explain why they choose to change jobs.


It seems pretty obvious why someone at the point in his career would choose to work with and champion independent creators when it's always been something he's passionate about. You're close to retirement and you get the chance to follow one of your greatest passions before you can no longer do it. I don't think Shu needs hounding by anyone to explain himself when we can work it out for ourselves. I think he was cringing at you believing your own explanation as to why it was never explained though. I'm with him tbh.
That's fair, I think we absolutely should have seen an explanation but if it's truly due to him either retiring or taking a smaller role that's fair
 

Mollymauk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,317
Sorry, but no.

Did you forget the start of this generation and the massive, abhorring contempt Xbox had for its gamers?

He's not "our guy".
Did you forget that Phil wasn't with Xbox at the time, and how he came in and turned it into the most pro-consumer console on the market?

Apparently so.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Honestly ?

I find all the memes and glorification of gaming personnality such as Kaz Hirai, Cerny, Reggie, Spencer, Gabe Newell and such cringe and pathetic af.

In fact, it's enough for me to know whenever I should pay attention to a poster or not.

I also agree. Games are not for fun and you should detest everyone involved in their production.
 

Panic Freak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,583
Phil is the best. He gave us game pass and my yearly budget for games went from $720 to 250! Thank you Phil.
 

Raylan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
715
You not interested in why one of the best exec's went from running first party to an indie initiative?
Yoshida already mentioned he considered retiring in 2014 and that he wants to spend more time with his very young daughters. Only PlayStation VR stopped him from retirement. A new gen is approaching and Shu changed his position with a less exhausting one. It's not really complicated to understand what happened here.
 

Ahti

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 6, 2017
9,195
After watching those Giant Bomb-interviews with him, I`ve become a philiever.
 

Bold One

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
18,911
Phil is the best. He gave us game pass and my yearly budget for games went from $720 to 250! Thank you Phil.
giphy.gif
 

Villein

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,982
so long as he keeps Sony on their toes and stops them from becoming "arogant sony" he's alright
 

Biteren

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,606
hate him all yall want, the dude came in and saved Xbox and made it a respectable console once again

even a big playstation foo like me can apreciate what hed does for Xbox
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,938
But "companies that care" don't exist on the stock market. They can't. They can only have strategies that allow people within the company who do care to act morally. And those strategies will only remain in practice for as long as shareholders believe it's what will get them the biggest return. Microsoft's shareholders don't want their shares' value to grow any less than Mylan's or Shell's, and their reasons for investing aren't any more noble.

I agree that 51-49 is better than 99-1, but my point is that these immediate 51-49 transactions are allowances made by a company that thinks it has to make them because it doesn't yet have the leverage to get 99-1. It is entirely conditional.

For example, Sony proudly touted the fact that online play on PS3 was free. It wasn't because it wanted the best for PlayStation owners, it was because the PS3 was floundering, and Sony knew it couldn't get away with charging for a less than impressive online component at a time when they needed all the goodwill they could get.

The moment Microsoft fucked itself and gave Sony the upper hand, Sony started charging for online play. Because it always wanted to, and now it finally could.

The chief justice of Delaware's supreme court wrote a really good essay a while back about the overriding nature of the profit motive. I don't fully agree with all its conclusions, but I think it's worth a read.


"Companies that care" is too vague to make any statement about their existence. Companies that operate with targets and goal sets that are beneficial (or less harmful) than those who don't is probably a better comparison.

Like, if we want to put metrics on specific use cases: you could have a company that grinds their workers into the dust with unrestricted crunch and a company that doesn't (and every variation in between). You could have the former company that believes that grinding through workers is the best way to make money because they outlay less in wages and get more "content" at a lower cost. On the other side, you could have a company that thinks that long term growth and nurturing of internal talent means not burning out their workers and maintaining institutional knowledge through long tenures by not driving senior devs away through better working conditions...and they think THAT will result in more "content" at a lower cost.

They have the same goals (more content, lower cost), but one either sees or values the externalities that come from "happy workers" and one that doesn't.
 

Simuly

Alt-Account
Banned
Jul 8, 2019
1,281
Eventually you reach a point in your life where you completely understand that someone can be a nice guy and you think they're someone you'd get on well with, but you also realise that they work for a multi billion dollar corporation who are out to sell you products and services within their own walled garden and that they're a suit without a suit. The "hero worship" people put on video game executives is kind of weird.

Ha pretty much.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,977
They never really explained unfortunately, fans/media never really question sonys moves so they got away with it. Also shu seems to be happy so I guess it wasn't that bad
They got away with it? Lol, you think Shu had no say in it? It's more likely he pushed for the "demotion" than Sony, given his aged and it being a passion of his (and less stressful and a likely much more relaxed workload), he could have just left if he was forced to start and head his own internal division.
 

TheUnseenTheUnheard

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 25, 2018
9,647
I was surprised that there isn't a statue of Phil in Xbox Plaza. He should definitely get one within a year or two.
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,988
North Carolina
Yeah he is just a corporate guy yadayada you know all that bullshit, but to be honest he tells me what I want as a consumer and so far he has and is giving me what he promised. Microsoft finally getting serious with PC gaming after like 2 decades is fantastic and it wouldn't have happened without him, so I fuckin' love the guy!
 

pixelation

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,548
I think he is overrated to be honest, people have been hyping him up for years now and I am yet to see results of his work in a tangible manner, he sure has a punchable face though.
 

dunkzilla

alt account
Banned
Dec 13, 2018
4,762
Embarrassing. His whole persona is marketing. Clearly it's working well.

Same as Reggie, Shu and the rest. They're trying to sell you things and their "personalities" are the marketing.
 

RedGator

Member
Nov 7, 2017
436
I appreciate the passion of people at Sony and Nintendo more tbh. The fact that we don't see or hear from those people is irrelevant when their games are better.

For how long Spencer has been a "good, nice guy who cares about great games", we should have already seen drastic differences in first party output, in my opinion, so I don't think he's our guy. Otherwise, yes, he's very likeable and I hope all his positive messaging will come to fruition next gen.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,287
This.

I don't get this whole thing of idolizing company executives. Phil may be a nice guy in real life or not, that's irrelevant, he does whatever he has to do to sell us his company's products. He's not "our guy" or our friend, he's there to do a job. His friendly nice guy persona could be all part of marketing his products and none of you all would ever know since no one here knows him that well on a personal basis.