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Player Damage signified by tonal shifts or lasting screen effects is a baffling design decision.
- Thread starter Bruceleeroy
- Start date
I have never understood the awful screen clouding effects, loss of color, sound or blood smears. It's like "Hey you appear to be dying, let me help speed that process along!" In fact I think the game should work in the opposite direction by helping your senses grow sharper in times where you need it. Give us clarity, make enemies stand out a bit more, focus more on the position of enemy attacks through sound as we take damage rather than adding an underwater filter to gunfire.
The thing about using overwhelming screen effects to indicate your character is near death...is that it might even contribute to your death due to how distracting it is.
I also dislike annoying audio queues like previously mentioned examples such as Legend of Zelda.
I understand some games they want to get away from HUD elements whenever possible. But I don't think darkening or gray scale on the screen are the way to go.
The trouble is, I'm not sure what substitutes exist.
I also dislike annoying audio queues like previously mentioned examples such as Legend of Zelda.
I understand some games they want to get away from HUD elements whenever possible. But I don't think darkening or gray scale on the screen are the way to go.
The trouble is, I'm not sure what substitutes exist.
Me reading this thread taking notes like:
Ok I'll have to change that.
Ok I'll have to consider that.
Ok nevermind I shouldn't consider it.
Ok I should.
OK I shouldn't.
Damn all of you this is so confusing! Agree on a standard already XD
I personally feel it entirely depends on the type of health system. If you have regeneration like most games, full-screen effects can be a useful tool so you don't have to babysit your health bar as it's custom for most games with regeneration to take large chunks of health, giving you a fight or flight feeling in almost every fight. The effects don't last full time.
In games where there is no regeneration, I feel a bar is best. These games usually don't eat chunks of your health and these games are usually designed around the war, not the fight. Full-screen effects here are kept more for debuffs or buffs and their display should be minimal.
Personally I don't mind full-screen effects if kept to the edges and don't disrupt my focused field of view. Less is more, IMO. The minute you desaturate color and kick up bloom like I've washed my eyes with bleach I'm out.
Ok I'll have to change that.
Ok I'll have to consider that.
Ok nevermind I shouldn't consider it.
Ok I should.
OK I shouldn't.
Damn all of you this is so confusing! Agree on a standard already XD
I personally feel it entirely depends on the type of health system. If you have regeneration like most games, full-screen effects can be a useful tool so you don't have to babysit your health bar as it's custom for most games with regeneration to take large chunks of health, giving you a fight or flight feeling in almost every fight. The effects don't last full time.
In games where there is no regeneration, I feel a bar is best. These games usually don't eat chunks of your health and these games are usually designed around the war, not the fight. Full-screen effects here are kept more for debuffs or buffs and their display should be minimal.
Personally I don't mind full-screen effects if kept to the edges and don't disrupt my focused field of view. Less is more, IMO. The minute you desaturate color and kick up bloom like I've washed my eyes with bleach I'm out.
That sounds really cool! I also like the idea, it's really cool for devs to explore different ways to signal your health status. Just seems like a lot of games don't implement it very well.
HD rumble or similar tech could do some really cool things with that
I've always liked Halo's health system, at least in Halo 1. Good audio cues, very distinct when your shield is down and the sound of recharging. Almost don't even need to check health bar most of the time.
I prefer health bar.
Not really sure what other way they can display to the player you're low on health when its regen health.
Not really sure what other way they can display to the player you're low on health when its regen health.
I really like how it's done in Gears of War. Such a simple design, the cog wheel's appears on screen and how much of it is visible tells you how much damage you've taken. Thing of it as a circle the game drawing a circle, when it finishes drawing it completely you've taken 100% damage, but if you don't then the circle starts to gradually gets "undrawn". On top of this you get animations that tell you direction you are getting hit from (player character will duck and also register the hit to give a feedback), intense heartbeat when close to death and also you'll have blood and sparks to show you the direction.
I would by far prefer a health bar.
However, it's funny you mention Wolfenstein because I recently played the New Order for the first time and had exactly the same problem on the last couple fights. Oh I'm fine, 75 HP. Oh I'm fine, 75 HP.
Wait I'm dead? I guess something was shooting me through the giant mass of on screen effects?
Most everything was fine up until the final fights, too, and then I stopped being able to see anything.
However, it's funny you mention Wolfenstein because I recently played the New Order for the first time and had exactly the same problem on the last couple fights. Oh I'm fine, 75 HP. Oh I'm fine, 75 HP.
Wait I'm dead? I guess something was shooting me through the giant mass of on screen effects?
Most everything was fine up until the final fights, too, and then I stopped being able to see anything.
The problem with that is your character can still take a few hits before dying, whereas in the original you could probably tank only 1 hit. I still think a health bar system works because it's a visual representation rather than something like numerical, whilst is precise, it's just a number and in the middle of a battle a number in the corner of your eye doesn't help much.
well it works in bushido blade 2 because there's other visual indicators when you're low on health
either your character's arm stops working, or your character starts limping, or he loses one of his weapons and you have to fight with just 1 weapon
you're right though, it is a bit different from the first game. not everyone liked the change.
Much prefer health bars.
Not a fan of the screen being covered in obnoxious shite until you find somewhere to hide for 10-20 seconds... Not at all.
Plus it's not exactly an accurate measure, which can lead to annoying deaths because you misjudged how much health you actually had left.
But I've learned to live with it I guess, just like QTEs and every game suddenly having Bat-vision mode because reasons.
Not a fan of the screen being covered in obnoxious shite until you find somewhere to hide for 10-20 seconds... Not at all.
Plus it's not exactly an accurate measure, which can lead to annoying deaths because you misjudged how much health you actually had left.
But I've learned to live with it I guess, just like QTEs and every game suddenly having Bat-vision mode because reasons.
I like the effects in Overwatch. Well, maybe not the blood part, but I use the sharp inhale as an auditory cue to rewind when playing Tracer. I'm sure I'd accidentally die a lot more if I just had to manage watching my health bar.
Pokemon Black/White had a really good theme for low hp pokemon too imo. It really made the mood in some tense gym battles.
I do think in pretty much every other game I've played I disliked any low hp effects, though. Looking specifically at Zelda's beeping.
Pokemon Black/White had a really good theme for low hp pokemon too imo. It really made the mood in some tense gym battles.
I do think in pretty much every other game I've played I disliked any low hp effects, though. Looking specifically at Zelda's beeping.
I agree to an extent. For a lot of games with regen, you need some visual cue to know what's going on, so they should do something. On the other hand, if I'm playing a story heavy game and all of a sudden the audio gets whacked out while people are saying stuff, you're gonna piss me off.
If a game doesn't have regen, don't show a thing. The absolute worst thing a game with no regen is make you constantly hear heartbeats and see veins when you're low on health.
If a game doesn't have regen, don't show a thing. The absolute worst thing a game with no regen is make you constantly hear heartbeats and see veins when you're low on health.
I wonder if developers consider that some of these methods actually increase game difficulty in critical moments. Given these are presumably to help gamers, but it sucks they do the opposite.
Totally agree with you, OP. Uncharted is my favourite "shooter" series and it grinds my gears that the health indicator diminishes the beauty of the games, which will happen very often on higher difficulties. Just give me a healthbar if you can't figure out a better way to indicate player health, or at least limit it to the edge of the screen. It's not like an additional HUD element will break my immersion more than severely desaturating the screen and throwing shit at it. It's also counterproductive when you're already doing badly and the game makes it even more difficult for you by limiting your sight. And Uncharted isn't even the worst example of this. I don't get how anyone ever thought this was a good idea and why it's still being so commonly used.
I like it. If you don't want to see it, well uhh...don't get shot to near death so much. It can take quite a bit of damage before it pops up.
Thanks! It's a little more than that; possibly getting towards the kind of stuff you don't like.
Okay. Titanfall-1 we kind of had a problem. There was practically no player feedback on how close to death you were/n't (Tf1 & Tf2 are regen-health games), and to compound that players often wouldn't "feel" the shots that hit them after the first one. So running around at 2% health felt exactly like running around at 99% health. (Iirc there's also an overlay, but it was effectively binary.)
Nobody was really conscious of this, but in general people often had a feeling of bullshit/random deaths. Because they'd often be near death and have no real idea. Oops. Lazy devs, etc.
So! Titanfall-2. Once our heads were on straight we fixed the outstanding "not feeling each hit" system issues, and to communicate current health went with a "lerp towards luminance" (aka "desaturate") solution. The one unique (?) twist is that we pick a color - the Tf2 hot-red enemy color - and the closer a pixel is to that color (think of a dot product in color space) the _less_ we apply the effect to it. That is; you keep seeing the enemy color tones even at near death.
I'm sure we can do better, and I doubt I'd want it in a non-regen-health game, but I'm somewhat proud of where we landed this time with that one. Most people don't notice it but you'll see them use the cues subconsciously, which is neat.
Yeah this is actually really annoying. Especially in areas of a game I'm really not good in.
I honestly wonder what game designers are thinking when this horseshit occurs.
Gobs of money spent on making the prettiest games imaginable, but unless players are on the easiest difficulty or just that damn good, they won't be able to see a damn thing.
Gobs of money spent on making the prettiest games imaginable, but unless players are on the easiest difficulty or just that damn good, they won't be able to see a damn thing.
Glad I'm not the only one. I just started playing (thanks for being late Amazon) but I just thought it was because I suck and wasn't paying enough attention.
This is the exact reason why i never finished what otherwise seemed to be a fun game and why i couldn't care less about the sequel
The feedback for your health and hit detection was incredibly piss poor and i'm genuinely confused how so many people tolerate it.
Ack, I really hate that. Don't know what they're thinking in games with this stuff.
Its only kind of related to the thread but I wish more games gave you real time damage on enemies as an actual way to tell how hurt they are instead of just a life bar or making them flash red. Some games do this to a lesser extent with blown off limbs on smaller enemies, The Flood from Halo for example. I'd like to see more games actually have chunks and pieces coming off enemies or in hack and slash games your slashes actually leaving lasting damage. It doesn't have to go into voxel chunks being blown off but games like Vamquish and Binary Domain were great with this as was Horizon Zero Dawn but I guess having robots as enemies makes that easy. God of War PS4 seems to be doing something like this for enemies and the new Monster Hunter to some extent as well.
It really must be said that Dead Space had a killer UI. They did so much right with it, keeping all the necessary info visible while amping up the immersion.
I'm a Game Designer and I Approve This Message.
There is a difference between using screen effects to warn the player they are in trouble when they are thick in action and having screen effects that are attempting to do that but actively fight against allowing the player to regroup because they can't see what is happening.
There is a difference between using screen effects to warn the player they are in trouble when they are thick in action and having screen effects that are attempting to do that but actively fight against allowing the player to regroup because they can't see what is happening.
Anyone have any examples of games that alter the music when you're close to death? Continuing to play the same melody, but switching instruments, changing the tempo, etc. Like how many 3D Zelda games have a battle theme that fades in as you near enemies, add instruments as you draw your sword, add more as one of you lands the first strike, etc., but based on whether you or your enemy is getting put on the ropes? I love this kind of stuff.
I came in here to post this. The sound of it hitting shields, the beeps when your shields have been depleted and start recharging, the more metalic sound of when you're taking health damage. And visual cues of your health bar going from blue to yellow to red. The shield bar flashing when it's close to being broken.
Then there's the bloody/darkening screen and I have no idea wtf my condition is. "Everything's gray! But it's a lighter shade of gray? I guess I can make it over to that place oh wait i'm dead." "There's jelly on my screen I can't see shit what's happening oh i'm dead."
I understand people want fewer UI elements on their screens but boy this is not great.
I honestly don't mind it, but definitely understand why it would be annoying to some.
I guess it's just tough to find ways to indicate it, without being too intensive. I mean, you could just increase the bullet holes on the character model, but how much? What signifies near death? I'm tired, but that came to mind.
I guess it's just tough to find ways to indicate it, without being too intensive. I mean, you could just increase the bullet holes on the character model, but how much? What signifies near death? I'm tired, but that came to mind.
It's bugging me in Mario Odyssey at the moment. Just godawful; a poor game design pretty much every time. The absolute worst was inFamous -- I think the first game.
-Color fades away
-Noise fades out
-Heartbeat noise non-stop
Of course I died every time I had low health because I was slammed with audio and visual annoyances.
-Color fades away
-Noise fades out
-Heartbeat noise non-stop
Of course I died every time I had low health because I was slammed with audio and visual annoyances.
Hated that. Sucks missing out on some epic gym battle/legendary fight music because my Pokemon's in low health.
Right? The most baffling thing about this design idea is that the developers seem to make the game harder if you're not doing well, rather than giving you a chance. It's like, oh you're at low health and getting shot up everywhere? Here, let us make things harder to see and hear.
I hate that in games. Or when they just constantly remind you of something and you just want the notifications to stop.
I think one of the less intrusive ways of showing you're close to death and such was Dead Space for me and it's "spine-o-meter" thing. You can see if you have full health, near death, etc. all the while not being obtrusive, and in an easy to understand way too.
That red jelly goo thing needs to go in SP. In MP, I get why they do it since you need a visual cue ASAP, but in SP? Nah.
it really depends on the game. obvs some games take the raspberry jam effect a bit far. i'd agree on Uncharted for the desaturation but otherwise thry handle it pretty well i think.
but not all games are first or 3rd person action. games where you are playing as a robot or other entity viewing remotely, it makes sense to have visual obfuscation. i just think it has to be handled delicately since you are sort of screwing with player options if you go too far. but i'm ok with a little extra difficulty; you messed up, it should be stressful or challenging.
but not all games are first or 3rd person action. games where you are playing as a robot or other entity viewing remotely, it makes sense to have visual obfuscation. i just think it has to be handled delicately since you are sort of screwing with player options if you go too far. but i'm ok with a little extra difficulty; you messed up, it should be stressful or challenging.
In games like Zelda breaks the immersion. It gets even more grating in Hero Mode, as you may find yourself with a single quarter of health and no hearts for long periods of time.
However, I find the low health beep integration quite clever and interesting in Metroid II (GB). The beep changes its speed and volume as you loss energy. It blends with the absence of soundtrack in some areas and contributes to the oppresive atmosphere.
Yoshi Island is the king of beeps though.
However, I find the low health beep integration quite clever and interesting in Metroid II (GB). The beep changes its speed and volume as you loss energy. It blends with the absence of soundtrack in some areas and contributes to the oppresive atmosphere.
Yoshi Island is the king of beeps though.
If it's not overly unrealistic (i.e. strawberry jam all over the screen), I kind of like it. It stands to reason that if you are injured, it would be more difficult to move and to focus on the world around you, although someone earlier in the thread mentioned you would actually be hyperfocused thus rendering everything more saliently. I kind of like this as well. I suppose whether you "lose focus" or "increase your focus", some change that indicates you are approaching death is appreciated. I'm not, however, a fan of pop-ups telling me I'm hurt and need to find cover.
With all that said, I can understand why some might prefer healthbars. As game options are becoming more diverse (we can already choose different graphics modes with PS4 Pro, for example), I would argue that, in an ideal world, a developer could provide both and let the player decide. We can already turn of HUDs and/or mini-maps in some games. Let us decide if we want to see healthbars or visual cues of our impending doom. Understandably this would be more work for said developer, but like I said, "ideal world".
With all that said, I can understand why some might prefer healthbars. As game options are becoming more diverse (we can already choose different graphics modes with PS4 Pro, for example), I would argue that, in an ideal world, a developer could provide both and let the player decide. We can already turn of HUDs and/or mini-maps in some games. Let us decide if we want to see healthbars or visual cues of our impending doom. Understandably this would be more work for said developer, but like I said, "ideal world".
Quote for Uncharted, if you play at hard, especially the 4, most section are B&W all the time... really stupid :/
For 3rd person games, I believe visual cues for damage or dying is eaiser to implement through the player you are controlling much like how Dead Space did it. For Uncharted, instead of the whole environment turning to black and white, why not just Drake or Chloe? If it's too unrealistic, then apply some sort of thick highlight on the character or show it through an animation like in Resident Evil.
I remember in the first Silent Hill that one way to determine health is through the vibration of the controller beating like a heart beat.
I remember in the first Silent Hill that one way to determine health is through the vibration of the controller beating like a heart beat.