Ah sure, I'm not a fan of tech journalists who have no tech background either.
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He is dev. Tom Warren is not. For example, devs know if a console is holding back a generation when Digitalfoundry or Jason Schreier told they heard devs hate Lockhart for example.
I didn't say they didn't make effective use of the horsepower. I said the difference in results wasn't exactly revelatory, and I stand by that. I'd be hard pressed to tell most PS4 owners that buying a PS4 Pro makes a lot of sense, and I say that as someone who owns one herself and would doubtless do so again if Sony does another. I know I'm far from a typical consumer as I'm more of a technophile than most with a disposable income that means I'm not really sacrificing anything to see the difference for myself.
For a typical consumer? It's not a mini-generational leap as the user interface is the same, the controller is the same, and there are literally zero games you can play on the PS4 Pro that you can't play on the PS4. Yes, you can tell the difference but it's not a significant leap. It's subtle with a few exceptions, which is why the term "noticeable" is appropriate and not "dramatic" or "night and day." It would likely be even more subtle this time around as the baseline is already more aggressive, which I believe I laid out quite clearly.
I'm not claiming that nobody would be interested or that you can't or shouldn't have enjoy the PS4 Pro yourself. I'm saying that, as a corporate strategy, I don't see it being mandatory that they put out another mid-gen console that pushes the performance envelope for the same games, with the same architecture, in an even bigger box the way they did this generation.
Thanks for bringing the receipts. Once again some one who actually worked on the PS5 is being doubted.
On the subject of mid-gen upgrades I hope there aren't any. I would have rather that money go to designing a smaller cheaper PS4 or simply subsidizing the PS4 price cuts, games anything really but a mid-gen upgrade. I don't buy that any significant amount of console owners are swayed to but high-end graphics cards in the middle of a generation when high end graphics cards more powerful than consoles after available at the start of a generation as well. I feel the mid-gen consoles were just used primarily to keep the MSRPs high throughout the generation.
Mid-gen upgrades next gen will order even less noticable visual benefits than this one had. They also serve to lessen the visual impact of next gen consoles.
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Article on Sony's almost entirely automated PS4 line in Japan. Relevant for a lot of discussions lately: COVID, Chinese labor, and production costs.
asia.nikkei.com
PlayStation's secret weapon: a nearly all-automated factory
Robots carry on legacy of craftsmanship at little-known Kisarazu plant
asia.nikkei.com
I'd consider inserting a flat and fragile ribbon cable into its socket correctly a crowning achievement for robotics.Article on Sony's almost entirely automated PS4 line in Japan. Relevant for a lot of discussions lately: COVID, Chinese labor, and production costs.
PlayStation's secret weapon: a nearly all-automated factory
Robots carry on legacy of craftsmanship at little-known Kisarazu plant
Are we sure about this? IIRC, we don't have the details of the BOM from both.
Yes, we dont have the details, but the ps5 bom is around 450$ as bloomberg and beteween 460 and 520 acordly to Zhuge.
there's more https://vdata.nikkei.com/en/newsgraphics/sony-playstation/Article on Sony's almost entirely automated PS4 line in Japan. Relevant for a lot of discussions lately: COVID, Chinese labor, and production costs.
PlayStation's secret weapon: a nearly all-automated factory
Robots carry on legacy of craftsmanship at little-known Kisarazu plant
Sure, but that's true of every midgen refresh to date. That said strategy wise, these updates worked to inflate average selling price, and retain interest of the segment of buyers that stick with higher end devices, for longer.
Pro specifically was also a cost effective measure for Sony thanks to coinciding with a node switch that would cost them about the same for the shrink alone.
Article on Sony's almost entirely automated PS4 line in Japan. Relevant for a lot of discussions lately: COVID, Chinese labor, and production costs.
PlayStation's secret weapon: a nearly all-automated factory
Robots carry on legacy of craftsmanship at little-known Kisarazu plant
Very interesting. Maybe this was the source of that recent PS5 production line picture? I mean I doubt Sony invested so much into this automation just for late generation PS4's. This would cut costs by some margin I would think.
Are we sure? No. But all we've got to go off is Bloomberg and Zhuge reporting similar figures. $450 for ps5 and $460-520 for xsx. With the reveal of ps5d, the question became if that estimate was for the physical or digital version.
The article makes it sound like it will be for low cost end of life PS4s. That makes sense as it would also likely make them invulnerable to tarriffs. They can convert to PS5 down the line.
Feel free to elaborate, I don't know what you're objecting to.
For sure the PS4 slim is the test case to prove they can do it. I hope they can do it sooner rather than later for PS5 and setup a handful of these up around the world and make further savings on transportation. Could PS5 be designed in part to make automation like this easier you think?
I'm a production engineer, so can chime in on this a bit. Automation isn't always a cost saving measure. It depends on several factors. The console being manufactured in large quantities will make it worth a shot, but the production seems to be very complex, so several expensive assembly robots are needed.
You also should factor that the workers in the factories get paid poorly -- I imagine.
I suspect it maybe worth it in the long run if every region has small automated factories. This will help with the shipping cost and Just in time manufacturing will decrease the amount of time between manufacturing and these things hitting the shelves.
I have to imagine quality control is another factor. A worker can make mistakes but a robot will give a more consistent output resulting in fewer issues that could cause a warranty claim. So for example perfectly applied thermal paste each and every time is one thing I'd expect.
The main point of the PS4 Pro was to convince certain hardcore gamers to stay within the PS4 ecosystem instead of migrating to PC like what happened last generation. I'm guessing the chances of a PS5 Pro will be based on how successful the first Pro was in that endeavour.
Maybe they'll also want to test drive some potential PS6 tech early as well?
Thanks. I do hope they move forward with it and do the same with PS5.
Very mature reaction. Keep it up, you have great future on this forum.
This is the first thing I thought of seeing that article...but are robots better for this vs humans?
Like for example, not sure now but when Amoled screens were new, it looked like it was the glue or how it was put together that caused the blotches on some devices when the screen was off.
Either too much or the way it was applied.
Pretty sure thermal paste wasn't manually applied with PS4/pro, if that's what you're hinting at.
Perfectly applied thermal paste really comes down to chip shape. I'd usually say quantity is a huge factor as well but if you look at teardowns, you can see corners having no coverage while the sides overflow by several mm.
I could've sworn he was perma banned. Imagine my surprise seeing him back in a ps5 thread.
Tom Warren saying PS5 will actually be only 9.00TF, and that devs will find that "a bit of an issue" is pure FUD. When he says that, he shows that he has no clue about how game development and performance work.
No one else in the industry is saying "This GPU isn't good enough for next gen" or "This CPU isn't good enough for next gen." Only Tom Warren, a Microsoft insider. What kind of reporter, with extensive Microsoft contacts, just drops FUD all over a competitor's product without having a single on the record source to back it up?
Tom is not speaking from experience. He is either speaking from Tales from His Ass, speculating on performance based on his nonexistent knowledge of working on PS5, or he's taking a Microsoft insider's word for it, or he's talking to a dev who is suffering from the horrible performance of the PS5. If he's talking to a dev who thinks PS5 is crapping the bed, that seems to be a minority view, as most devs seem to like it fine. But maybe that's the narrative he's primed to believe. The other two scenarios are even worse for his reputation.
No one else in the industry is saying "This GPU isn't good enough for next gen" or "This CPU isn't good enough for next gen." Only Tom Warren, a Microsoft insider. What kind of reporter, with extensive Microsoft contacts, just drops FUD all over a competitor's product without having a single on the record source to back it up?
Tom is not speaking from experience. He is either speaking from Tales from His Ass, speculating on performance based on his nonexistent knowledge of working on PS5, or he's taking a Microsoft insider's word for it, or he's talking to a dev who is suffering from the horrible performance of the PS5. If he's talking to a dev who thinks PS5 is crapping the bed, that seems to be a minority view, as most devs seem to like it fine. But maybe that's the narrative he's primed to believe. The other two scenarios are even worse for his reputation.
User Banned (1 week): Antagonising another member, long history of similar behaviour
Both him and Brad Sams are obvious fanboys. I've read their twitter replies and who they talk to. The amount of FUD they spread only feeds the trolls. They know what they are doing.
Edit: the concern over the PS5 with variable clocks versus zero concern over a 4TF system is hilariously bad.
But should I trust a dev? 🤔
Edit: the concern over the PS5 with variable clocks versus zero concern over a 4TF system is hilariously bad.
But should I trust a dev? 🤔
That should be enough right there, lol.
With 7.5GB of ram for games.
Let's get back on topic, please. All this will do is drive the wrong type of people into this thread.
Innit.
I left it at that because I think it's fine showing proof since he asked for it. Further doing it will be dogpiling.
Let's move on.
Seconded, hell i'm surprised we lasted 24 pages so far without a staff post warning lol.
Well, calling other members fanboys doesn't add anything to the discussion and just fuels all that is wrong with this forum. You may not agree or find their statements incorrect but there are other ways to point that stuff over.
Regarding the all variable clocks debate vs 4TF you are also not being honest, PS5 is a 4K machine so having less clocks may impact this goal (ATENTION, ALERT: I'M NOT SAYING THAT PS5 VARIABLE CLOCKS IMPACTS ANYTHING) while the 4TF machine is aimed at 1080p.
My personal take, variable clocks will not impact that much, a couple of frames here a couple of frames there but nothing extraordinary while Lockhart will do fine for its intended porpuses, 1080p gaming.
Man why couldn't Tom just pick up the phone like digital foundry and ask devs working on next gen games how low the clocks go.
I am not ragging on Tom because I'm genuinely interested to know how low the clocks go myself. Cerny mentioned some worst cases but i would love to hear it from the devs. And Tom should have some sources in the industry who could tell him that.
DF did the right thing. They went to devs then went back to cerny to clarify. We still don't have a clear cut picture but those 9 tflops rumors were pretty much dispelled by that DF article. I hope more journalists do this.
AMDs adaptive voltage and frequency system (AVFS) can react to the activity of distinct processes after only 1 to 2 cycles. That's in the vicinity of nanoseconds for processors clocking in the GHz range. A 120 fps rendering takes about 10 ms. The clocks for each core can vary a million times while one frame is rendered.
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User Banned (2 weeks): Antagonising another member, long history of infractions for hostility and platform wars
Of course not. It's just console wars with that guy.
We've heard numerous times from actual devs and DF how the variable clocks will work and how they will stay at Max frequency most of the time. Which is why it's s 10.2 tf machine.
I mean Matt has also confirmed that PS5 had more TF than Stadia. If PS5 does fall short of that I guess plans can and do change.
Matt never said that. it was jason.
Matt made an educated guess saying the XSX was more powerful and the difference between the two was roughly 15%. i'd say he came pretty close.
I can only assume that Tom Warren believes or wants to spread the narrative that the way Sony is using and talking about variable clocks is purely a PR framing device to make their machine look less weak against the Xbox.
What kind of professional tech writer would do this without getting comments from anonymous sources at the very least? I don't know 🤷♂️
What kind of professional tech writer would do this without getting comments from anonymous sources at the very least? I don't know 🤷♂️
Exactly. And Jason said ....both... were aiming, targeting more than Stadia. One made it, one didnt. And its 10.7 vs 10.2.....
Its all there in the speculation threads.....
And at one point Matt mentioned +/-20% in a post:
"15% is an oddly specific number that matches exactly with the 10.2TF rumors"
Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - nm
Oh shit my sources told me Sony just gonna re release the ps4 original. No ps5 damn devkits are burning down studios.www.resetera.com
Looking back over this and other folks posts about LH it seems like things were evolving for both Sony and MS. Especially because before the reveal no one really seemed to know or let it leak that Sony had 2 sku's also.
And....I dont remember a 10.2 rumor.
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Matt does not have either device if he did he wouldn't be talking about them openly on a forum due to their NDAs
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