What kind of tv do you have now? It's a 120 hz capable one? If you are looking for cables def go through mono price cheapest prices you can get and they all work well.
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Yes, I bought a 2M monoprice cable. I think 4 or 5M is the limit for 40Gbps.
I'm not even seeing anything at ~10' from the couple places I've looked at.
Bought a 3pk of 6' cables from monoprice for myself.
Is the following Twitter member a good source ?
And if they are, what does it mean for the ps5 gpu? is it the same mix and match between rdna1 and 2?
And if they are, what does it mean for the ps5 gpu? is it the same mix and match between rdna1 and 2?
Would be nice if someone rebranded it for some name like Random Access Memory, yeah, I think it's a cool name.
Locuza is part of the twitter thread so there might be truth to some of it. Let's see how it develops.
It doesn't necessarily mean anything for PS5 GPU. Maybe we'll get a similar leak for that separately?
RDNA1 front end/CUs seems at odds with MS' comments around mesh shaders and VRS modes, no? RT being RDNA 2 but CUs being RDNA1 would suggest a hybrid adding RT silicon into the CUs or potentially as separate units? And then I suppose a follow on question is - what are the main differences between 1 and 2, and if you add RT to 1 how different are you from 2 at that point?
ok we do apparantly have monoprice in the UK (although its a German store with a uk front end). And they sell through amazon. Just bought 2x 8ft 48Gbps cables. Shoudl be here by Nov 5 so I'll try and get them set up in the right spots ahead of XSX/PS5 along with ethernet cables.
Thanks for that!
Nice! No problem. I hate when people have to spend a shitload of money on cables the margin on them is insane. I used to steer people to cheap cables back in my retail days I felt dirty selling monster cables to people lmao.
Here's what the white paper actually says:
4 SIMDs per dual CU, so 2 SIMDs per CU.
Ok, I'm at loss. What does it mean in simplified English? XSX has hybrid GPU with some parts from the older architecture? In that case that may be bad for PS5 as well, since it was developed and finalized (allegedly) earlier.
Can explain low(er) clocks though.
Can explain low(er) clocks though.
hello!
Japanese tech journalist's commentary and interview with Otori-san (1/2)
(There are some images at the link.)
Zenji Nishikawa's 3DGE: I'll tell you how to make PS5. The internal design of the PS5, according to a mechanical designer(in Japanese)
On October 7th, 2020, Sony Interactive Entertainment (SIE) released a disassembled video of its then unreleased next generation gaming console, the PlayStation 5 (PS5). The video caused quite a stir, as the company released a video explaining the internals of the PS5 in great detail before the product's release. If you haven't seen it, please watch this one.
I had a chance to interview Mr. Yasuhiro Otori, who introduced the inner workings of PS5 in this video. In this article, we will explain the details of the PS5 based on the information we got from the interview.
Mr. Otori is a specialist in housing design and internal structure design, especially cooling design, and he will be giving a presentation at CEDEC 2014 on the internal structure of the PlayStation 4 (PS4) titled "How the PS4 is made, and what's inside the PS4 is revealed! I have also done the following. For those interested, see the report by the author.
First, let's review the basic information in the PS5 disassembly video
First, let's get some basic information on the PS5's physical structure based on the disassembly video released by SIE.
The PS5's nominal body size is 104 (W) x 260 (D) x 390 (H) mm when placed in portrait mode. The PS5's nominal body size is 104mm (W) x 260 (D) x 390 (H) mm when placed in portrait mode, which is considerably larger than the PS4's nominal body size. Mr. Otori says in the video that it is "a size larger than the initial PS4".
However, as you can see as the video progresses, the PS5's curved surface design is narrower from the center of the body to the edges, so the actual volume of the regular PS5 is about 7.2″, and the digital edition without the optical drive is about 6.4″. The volume of the competing Xbox Series X is about 6.86. so it's about 1.05 and 0.93 times.
The back of the PS5 was not available for filming at the media event, so this is the first time the video was shown in disassembled form.
There is a slit on the upper part of the front side for air intake, and the back side has exhaust holes all around.
On the front, there are USB Type-A ports for USB 2.0 and USB Type-C ports for USB 3.2 Gen 2.
On the back are two USB 3.2 Gen 2 compliant Type-A ports, a 1000BASE-T wired LAN port, an HDMI 2.1 output terminal, and an eyeglass-shaped power connector.
The PS5 comes standard with a dedicated stand that can be used for both vertical and horizontal installation. The stand is held in place with coin screws when the unit is placed upright, and the claws of the stand are hooked to the side of the PS5 unit when it is placed horizontally.
The white cover panels on either side of the PS5 are made of ABS resin. They can be removed by sliding them off.
When you remove the cover panel, the most noticeable thing inside is the air cooling fan. The fan is 120mm in diameter and 45mm in thickness, and it goes through the body.
In addition, there are two dust catchers on the right side to collect dust, which can be vacuumed up by the vacuum cleaner. The cover panel can be easily removed so that users can easily maintain it themselves.
Next, let's take a look at the additional SSD slots, and while the PS5 features a high-speed SSD, there was a lot of confusion as to whether the standard SSD can be replaced when the storage capacity is increased, or whether it should be added to a separate slot. In the disassembly video, it was revealed that an M.2 slot was available for adding an SSD, which settled the issue. The connection interface is said to be PCI Express (PCIe) 4.0 compatible.
In the movie, the optical drive covered by the steel chassis is removed to reveal the main board. The interesting thing is that there is only one main board, while the Xbox Series X has two boards, a main board and a sub board. This is one of the points that we would like to pay attention to as it shows a big difference between the two products.
The SoC (System-on-a-Chip) on the main board is a dedicated APU that integrates a CPU core based on Zen2 and a GPU core based on RDNA 2. Aside from the main memory, the standard SSD is also directly attached to the board, so it cannot be replaced by the user, and the board appears to have a total of six flash memory chips, three on the front and three on the back side of the board.
The video also shows a customized SSD controller from SIE. Just to add to the misunderstanding, this SSD controller is not equipped with the data-expanding chips necessary to achieve PS5's high-speed data transfer. The difference is that the PS5's SSD controller has a 12-channel configuration, whereas a typical SSD controller has 8/16/32 channels.
The scene that follows is the climax of this video.
In the following scene, Mr. Otori revealed the use of liquid metal for the thermal interface material (TIM) between the APU and the heat sink in the PS5.
Although liquid metal is an excellent thermal interface material, it is not actively used in consumer electronics due to its tendency to corrode aluminum. The fact that PS5 uses liquid metal on purpose is interesting. According to Otori, SIE has been preparing for the adoption of liquid metal for more than two years.
The heat sink that cools the APU is about 30% of the size of the housing. Six heat pipes extend from the part of the housing that touches the APU, which has the highest thermal density, towards the heat sink. Mr. Otori says, "Although we used standard heat pipes, we were able to achieve the same level of performance as a vapor chamber by improving the shape of the heat sink and airflow design.
The power supply unit that was removed at the end is said to have a rated output of 350W. Since it is a rather high power supply unit, we can clearly see that it also accounts for a large portion of the PS5's overall volume.
Ask about SSD expansion, a concern for gamers
Now that we've reviewed the PS5's internal structure, let's take a look at some of the information we got from our interview with Otori.
The PS5 can use M.2 SSDs for PC's that support PCIe 4.0. However, there are several products with different board sizes for M.2 SSDs. I wonder how much of it can be built in?
Otori: PS5 supports board sizes that are 22 mm wide and 30 mm/42 mm/60 mm/80 mm/110 mm in length, which are common for M.2 SSDs, and the studs and screws that hold the SSD module in place are built into the SSD expansion slots from the start.
It's a minor detail, but some M.2 SSDs have heat sinks attached to them. Are there any precautions that need to be taken when installing such SSDs in the expansion slots?
Otori: The physical design of the heat sink is designed so that it can be stored as long as it is no higher than 8 mm from the board surface. Although there is a metal cover on the expansion slot, it is best to avoid contact with it.
If you install an SSD with a tall heatsink, it may interfere with the metal cover. The chassis and screw holes to which the metal cover is attached are made of plastic, so there is a possibility that they will be damaged. For this reason, it is likely that you should avoid using an extremely tall heat sink for an additional SSD.
Also, it is well known that M.2 SSDs that support PCIe connections generate heat under high loads, and some PC motherboards are equipped with heat sinks for M.2 SSDs, so we wonder what kind of innovations are used in the PS5.
Otori: We have two exhaust holes for additional SSD slots. Because the slots for expansion are located near the intake fan, the structure is designed to suck out heat from the exhaust holes with negative pressure.
The secret behind the stand, which can be placed vertically or horizontally
Along with the SSD, we also found out some interesting things about the included stand, which is likely to be of great interest to readers in terms of "how to set up the PS5".
The height of PS5 is nearly 40cm when placed vertically, so the center of gravity is also suitably high. So it is easy to understand why PS5 is attached with a special stand as a standard accessory to prevent it from falling down.
As mentioned above, the stand can be used for horizontal installation, but in the disassembly movie, the stand was rotated when switching from vertical to horizontal installation. This gimmick may have intrigued many people. What is the meaning of that rotating mechanism?
Otori: The PS5 stand looks simple, but it's quite elaborate.
If you look closely at the stand, you can see that the indentations where PS5 is placed in portrait mode are inclined on both sides. When the PS5 is placed horizontally, this inclination is designed to support the white cover panel. However, the curved surface of the cover panel and the shape of the stand do not mesh with each other when it is oriented as it is.
So we have to rotate it. When the slide is rotated, the non-slip pedestal in the dent in the stand rises up. At the same time, the hook to fix PS5 on the stand moves to the designated position. The raised non-slip base and the slopes on either side of the base catch the curved surface of the cover panel perfectly.
Depending on the stand, the PS5 can be placed either horizontally or vertically, but does the way it's placed make a difference in heat dissipation performance?
Otori: This is a question we are often asked. As a designer, I can say that there is no difference in cooling performance between vertical and horizontal mounting. I know that some people think that the chimney effect makes the vertical installation more efficient in terms of heat dissipation. However, the chimney effect is at the level of measurement error in a cooling system with an active fan (electric fan) installed. Both horizontal and vertical mounting will perform as specified. Personally, I like the vertical installation, which shows the PS logo correctly.
Do you use the latest computer aided engineering (CAE) to analyze how the air flows through the chassis?
Otori: CAE is sometimes used to optimize the airflow of individual parts, but we don't use it to design the whole thing; we develop it by conducting real-world experiments. Specifically, we made a transparent model of the chassis and observed the dry ice smoke flowing through it, and took temperature readings in each part of the system as we made improvements.
Why is PS5 so tall?
At about 390mm, PS5's height is the tallest in PlayStation's history. This protruding vertical (or horizontal when the unit is placed on its side) shape seems to be a secret too.
Otori: After the design department provided us with the required dimensions, we began to consider the design of the PS5's body. For example, we reduced the height and widened the width by that amount. This time, however, the design department asked us to make it look thinner when it's placed on its side, so we decided to make it taller and narrower.
Hearing this story alone, it sounds like the result of focusing on appearance, but of course, that's not the only thing we did. In fact, there is another major benefit of this design, which is to reduce the number of mounting boards. That is to reduce the number of mounting boards. If the width is made wider, it would be difficult to install on a single main board, resulting in a double-board configuration with a main board and a sub-board.
I'm not sure if this is due to the increased width of the Xbox Series X, but the system is actually made up of two boards.
Otori: Having two boards increases manufacturing costs and thermal design challenges. We wanted to make it look thinner when it is placed horizontally, and we wanted to keep the cost down with a single board.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Japanese tech journalist's commentary and interview with Otori-san (1/2)
(There are some images at the link.)
Zenji Nishikawa's 3DGE: I'll tell you how to make PS5. The internal design of the PS5, according to a mechanical designer(in Japanese)
西川善司の3DGE：PS5の作り方、教えます。メカ設計担当者に聞いたこだわりの内部設計
2020年10月7日，SIEが公開した「PlayStation 5」の公式分解動画は大きな反響をもたらした。この中では，液体金属を採用した熱伝導材料など，初めて公開となるトピックがいくつかあった。今回は分解動画に登場したPS5のメカ設計を担当する鳳 康宏氏へのインタビューをもとに，より詳細な解説を行いたい。
www.4gamer.net
On October 7th, 2020, Sony Interactive Entertainment (SIE) released a disassembled video of its then unreleased next generation gaming console, the PlayStation 5 (PS5). The video caused quite a stir, as the company released a video explaining the internals of the PS5 in great detail before the product's release. If you haven't seen it, please watch this one.
I had a chance to interview Mr. Yasuhiro Otori, who introduced the inner workings of PS5 in this video. In this article, we will explain the details of the PS5 based on the information we got from the interview.
Mr. Otori is a specialist in housing design and internal structure design, especially cooling design, and he will be giving a presentation at CEDEC 2014 on the internal structure of the PlayStation 4 (PS4) titled "How the PS4 is made, and what's inside the PS4 is revealed! I have also done the following. For those interested, see the report by the author.
［CEDEC 2014］PS4の作り方教えます。SCEのメカ設計担当者自らが内部構造を徹底解説
PS2以降のPlayStationで「メカ設計」を担当するSCEのエンジニア・鳳 康宏氏がCEDEC 2014に登場。1月にPS4の冷却周りを事細かに紹介して話題を集めた氏が，今度はPS4がどのようなパーツで構成されており，それらがどのように製造されているかを徹底解説してくれたので，その内容をお伝えしたい。
www.4gamer.net
First, let's review the basic information in the PS5 disassembly video
First, let's get some basic information on the PS5's physical structure based on the disassembly video released by SIE.
The PS5's nominal body size is 104 (W) x 260 (D) x 390 (H) mm when placed in portrait mode. The PS5's nominal body size is 104mm (W) x 260 (D) x 390 (H) mm when placed in portrait mode, which is considerably larger than the PS4's nominal body size. Mr. Otori says in the video that it is "a size larger than the initial PS4".
However, as you can see as the video progresses, the PS5's curved surface design is narrower from the center of the body to the edges, so the actual volume of the regular PS5 is about 7.2″, and the digital edition without the optical drive is about 6.4″. The volume of the competing Xbox Series X is about 6.86. so it's about 1.05 and 0.93 times.
The back of the PS5 was not available for filming at the media event, so this is the first time the video was shown in disassembled form.
There is a slit on the upper part of the front side for air intake, and the back side has exhaust holes all around.
On the front, there are USB Type-A ports for USB 2.0 and USB Type-C ports for USB 3.2 Gen 2.
On the back are two USB 3.2 Gen 2 compliant Type-A ports, a 1000BASE-T wired LAN port, an HDMI 2.1 output terminal, and an eyeglass-shaped power connector.
The PS5 comes standard with a dedicated stand that can be used for both vertical and horizontal installation. The stand is held in place with coin screws when the unit is placed upright, and the claws of the stand are hooked to the side of the PS5 unit when it is placed horizontally.
The white cover panels on either side of the PS5 are made of ABS resin. They can be removed by sliding them off.
When you remove the cover panel, the most noticeable thing inside is the air cooling fan. The fan is 120mm in diameter and 45mm in thickness, and it goes through the body.
In addition, there are two dust catchers on the right side to collect dust, which can be vacuumed up by the vacuum cleaner. The cover panel can be easily removed so that users can easily maintain it themselves.
Next, let's take a look at the additional SSD slots, and while the PS5 features a high-speed SSD, there was a lot of confusion as to whether the standard SSD can be replaced when the storage capacity is increased, or whether it should be added to a separate slot. In the disassembly video, it was revealed that an M.2 slot was available for adding an SSD, which settled the issue. The connection interface is said to be PCI Express (PCIe) 4.0 compatible.
In the movie, the optical drive covered by the steel chassis is removed to reveal the main board. The interesting thing is that there is only one main board, while the Xbox Series X has two boards, a main board and a sub board. This is one of the points that we would like to pay attention to as it shows a big difference between the two products.
The SoC (System-on-a-Chip) on the main board is a dedicated APU that integrates a CPU core based on Zen2 and a GPU core based on RDNA 2. Aside from the main memory, the standard SSD is also directly attached to the board, so it cannot be replaced by the user, and the board appears to have a total of six flash memory chips, three on the front and three on the back side of the board.
The video also shows a customized SSD controller from SIE. Just to add to the misunderstanding, this SSD controller is not equipped with the data-expanding chips necessary to achieve PS5's high-speed data transfer. The difference is that the PS5's SSD controller has a 12-channel configuration, whereas a typical SSD controller has 8/16/32 channels.
The scene that follows is the climax of this video.
In the following scene, Mr. Otori revealed the use of liquid metal for the thermal interface material (TIM) between the APU and the heat sink in the PS5.
Although liquid metal is an excellent thermal interface material, it is not actively used in consumer electronics due to its tendency to corrode aluminum. The fact that PS5 uses liquid metal on purpose is interesting. According to Otori, SIE has been preparing for the adoption of liquid metal for more than two years.
The heat sink that cools the APU is about 30% of the size of the housing. Six heat pipes extend from the part of the housing that touches the APU, which has the highest thermal density, towards the heat sink. Mr. Otori says, "Although we used standard heat pipes, we were able to achieve the same level of performance as a vapor chamber by improving the shape of the heat sink and airflow design.
The power supply unit that was removed at the end is said to have a rated output of 350W. Since it is a rather high power supply unit, we can clearly see that it also accounts for a large portion of the PS5's overall volume.
Ask about SSD expansion, a concern for gamers
Now that we've reviewed the PS5's internal structure, let's take a look at some of the information we got from our interview with Otori.
The PS5 can use M.2 SSDs for PC's that support PCIe 4.0. However, there are several products with different board sizes for M.2 SSDs. I wonder how much of it can be built in?
Otori: PS5 supports board sizes that are 22 mm wide and 30 mm/42 mm/60 mm/80 mm/110 mm in length, which are common for M.2 SSDs, and the studs and screws that hold the SSD module in place are built into the SSD expansion slots from the start.
It's a minor detail, but some M.2 SSDs have heat sinks attached to them. Are there any precautions that need to be taken when installing such SSDs in the expansion slots?
Otori: The physical design of the heat sink is designed so that it can be stored as long as it is no higher than 8 mm from the board surface. Although there is a metal cover on the expansion slot, it is best to avoid contact with it.
If you install an SSD with a tall heatsink, it may interfere with the metal cover. The chassis and screw holes to which the metal cover is attached are made of plastic, so there is a possibility that they will be damaged. For this reason, it is likely that you should avoid using an extremely tall heat sink for an additional SSD.
Also, it is well known that M.2 SSDs that support PCIe connections generate heat under high loads, and some PC motherboards are equipped with heat sinks for M.2 SSDs, so we wonder what kind of innovations are used in the PS5.
Otori: We have two exhaust holes for additional SSD slots. Because the slots for expansion are located near the intake fan, the structure is designed to suck out heat from the exhaust holes with negative pressure.
The secret behind the stand, which can be placed vertically or horizontally
Along with the SSD, we also found out some interesting things about the included stand, which is likely to be of great interest to readers in terms of "how to set up the PS5".
The height of PS5 is nearly 40cm when placed vertically, so the center of gravity is also suitably high. So it is easy to understand why PS5 is attached with a special stand as a standard accessory to prevent it from falling down.
As mentioned above, the stand can be used for horizontal installation, but in the disassembly movie, the stand was rotated when switching from vertical to horizontal installation. This gimmick may have intrigued many people. What is the meaning of that rotating mechanism?
Otori: The PS5 stand looks simple, but it's quite elaborate.
If you look closely at the stand, you can see that the indentations where PS5 is placed in portrait mode are inclined on both sides. When the PS5 is placed horizontally, this inclination is designed to support the white cover panel. However, the curved surface of the cover panel and the shape of the stand do not mesh with each other when it is oriented as it is.
So we have to rotate it. When the slide is rotated, the non-slip pedestal in the dent in the stand rises up. At the same time, the hook to fix PS5 on the stand moves to the designated position. The raised non-slip base and the slopes on either side of the base catch the curved surface of the cover panel perfectly.
Depending on the stand, the PS5 can be placed either horizontally or vertically, but does the way it's placed make a difference in heat dissipation performance?
Otori: This is a question we are often asked. As a designer, I can say that there is no difference in cooling performance between vertical and horizontal mounting. I know that some people think that the chimney effect makes the vertical installation more efficient in terms of heat dissipation. However, the chimney effect is at the level of measurement error in a cooling system with an active fan (electric fan) installed. Both horizontal and vertical mounting will perform as specified. Personally, I like the vertical installation, which shows the PS logo correctly.
Do you use the latest computer aided engineering (CAE) to analyze how the air flows through the chassis?
Otori: CAE is sometimes used to optimize the airflow of individual parts, but we don't use it to design the whole thing; we develop it by conducting real-world experiments. Specifically, we made a transparent model of the chassis and observed the dry ice smoke flowing through it, and took temperature readings in each part of the system as we made improvements.
Why is PS5 so tall?
At about 390mm, PS5's height is the tallest in PlayStation's history. This protruding vertical (or horizontal when the unit is placed on its side) shape seems to be a secret too.
Otori: After the design department provided us with the required dimensions, we began to consider the design of the PS5's body. For example, we reduced the height and widened the width by that amount. This time, however, the design department asked us to make it look thinner when it's placed on its side, so we decided to make it taller and narrower.
Hearing this story alone, it sounds like the result of focusing on appearance, but of course, that's not the only thing we did. In fact, there is another major benefit of this design, which is to reduce the number of mounting boards. That is to reduce the number of mounting boards. If the width is made wider, it would be difficult to install on a single main board, resulting in a double-board configuration with a main board and a sub-board.
I'm not sure if this is due to the increased width of the Xbox Series X, but the system is actually made up of two boards.
Otori: Having two boards increases manufacturing costs and thermal design challenges. We wanted to make it look thinner when it is placed horizontally, and we wanted to keep the cost down with a single board.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Last edited:
Japanese tech journalist's commentary and interview with Otori-san (2/2)
(There are some images at the link.)
Zenji Nishikawa's 3DGE: I'll tell you how to make PS5. The internal design of the PS5, according to a mechanical designer(in Japanese)
Why do we use liquid metal in the main cooling system's TIM?
Next to the exterior, I'd like to talk about the main board, as SIE calls the front side of the board "Side A" and the back side "Side B", so this article follows suit.
As mentioned earlier, the APU, the main processor, is mounted on side A. Three SSD flash memory chips are mounted on each side of the board on both sides. The edge of the board has a large slit to accommodate the fan.
Otori: The electric fan is designed to blow air on both sides of the board, side A and side B. The material of the fan is polyvinyl fiberglass. The fan is made of glass fiber polybutylene terephthalate. The advantage of this material is that it is strong and its shape is minimally deformed by heat. The number of vanes is calculated based on the balance between the required positive pressure and air volume. The fan is designed with enough margin to avoid the failure of the main unit even in a very severe environment.
The fan is 120mm in diameter and 45mm in thickness, which is quite large and thick for an electric fan mounted on a game machine. The reason for this is to achieve a high level of quietness by rotating the large fan slowly. Although the company does not disclose the nominal fan noise level, it can be said that "under normal usage and specification conditions, the fan is quieter than the early PlayStation 3 and PS4".
The cooling system for the APU on the A-side of the main board was carefully designed by Otori's team. The best example of this is the use of liquid metal for the timings.
Otori: We have wanted to use liquid metal for a long time. However, since liquid metal is conductive, if it leaks to the board side, it will cause a short circuit. Above all, liquid metal is highly corrosive to aluminum, which is used for components such as heat sinks. When handling such materials, measures are required for manufacturing facilities. We spent more than two years preparing for these problems.
Although the composition of the liquid metal and the manufacturer of the joint venture were not disclosed, it is said that a common gallium-based alloy is used for the liquid metal-based TIM. However, in the interview, he emphasized that it was a proprietary product custom made by SIE.
In the disassembled video of TIM, you can see a sponge-like component around the APU part. This prevents the liquid metal from leaking out to the board side.
Liquid metal TIM also exists for PC CPUs and is used among CPU overclockers, for example. However, as Otori says, there are problems with conductivity and corrosion. There is even a warning to use copper-based heat sinks in TIM for PCs.
Why did you spend more than two years to use such a difficult material?
Otori: The main reason is cost. In thermal design, you have to put the cost close to the heat source. As a general thermal design metaphor, let's say you spend 10 yen for a TIM and 1,000 yen for a heat sink in the cooling structure of a certain system. If you change to a 100 yen TIM, you can get the same cooling effect with a 500 yen heat sink. In other words, you can reduce the total cost.
Even after overcoming the difficulties in handling and manufacturing, liquid metal was finally used in PS5 to achieve a great effect.
The main heat sink that cools the APU is connected to the board through the A-side shield plate made of galvanized steel plate (SPCC: Steel Plate Cold Commercial). The APU portion of the A-side shielding plate has a square hole in it so that the block part of the heat sink will directly contact with the APU.
Otori: The heat sink is made of aluminum, but the block in contact with the APU is made of copper. However, can you see that this block is plated in silver? This is to prevent corrosion from liquid metal.
As mentioned earlier, gallium-based liquid metals are highly corrosive to aluminum, but copper is said to be able to withstand that. However, according to the tests conducted by the PS5 development team, even copper is not completely resistant to the gallium-based metal used in this project, TIM, so they are also taking measures to protect it with plating.
Cooling the back of the board was more difficult than the surface
The B-side, which is the back side of the machine, has many highlights as well, and the B-side is dotted with reasonably large heat sources such as GDDR6 memory, DC/DC power circuits, and flash memory chips.
How are these parts of the device being treated for heat?
Otori: Actually, we are more concerned with the cooling of the B-side of the device than the A-side. Looking back, it may have been easier to deal with side A because we could foresee the high heat source in advance (laughs). In fact, the B-side has as much heat as a PS4's APU, so we had to cover the B-side. That's why the shield board covering the B-side can be used as a heat sink.
According to Otori, the B-side of the board is not made of galvanized steel, as the A-side is, but of aluminum, which has excellent thermal conductivity and heat dissipation.
The outer side of the aluminum shield board has a small three-dimensional heat-dissipating fin, and the inner side where it makes contact with the B-side has a heat pipe, making it look like a shield board as well as a heat-dissipating plate. This heat pipe is connected to the heat sink mainly for the purpose of heat transfer from the DC/DC power supply circuit. The wind from the cooling fan flows through the shield board and wipes away the heat.
By the way, if you look closely at the inside of the shield board, you can see that the ground surface is coated with gray material. What is this?
Otori: It's TIM. It's applied to the shield board, the DC/DC power supply circuitry, the GDDR6 memory, the SSD flash memory and the part where the heat source is installed. It's used to transfer heat from the heat source to the shield board.
The TIM applied to the shield looks like a round rubber sheet, but it is in liquid form during the manufacturing process. It hardens over time and eventually takes on a rubber-like texture, according to the company. The chips, which are the heat source of the chips, are expected to have a certain amount of variation in height, but this TIM can absorb that variation because it is in liquid form when it is applied.
Otori: The use of this TIM is closely related to the manufacturing process. The process of peeling off the backing board is difficult to accomplish with a robotic arm. The injector method (to inject the liquid TIM) is a good match for automatic machine production.
Optical drive and power supply unit
Let's take a look at the remaining optical drive (UHD BD drive) and the power supply unit. The optical drive is completely enclosed in a steel case, which appears to be a disadvantageous structure from a heat dissipation point of view. Why is it designed like this?
Otori: As you mentioned, we focused on quietness and vibration control. Optical drives, which are capable of high-speed reading, generate a certain amount of noise and vibration when the optical discs spin at high speeds. In some cases, a disc with a sticker affixed to the surface of the disc may be inserted. Since the weight of such discs is imbalanced, they generate more noise and vibration. This is the structure of the optical drive in order to reduce noise and vibration.
The optical drive module is equipped with a double insulator at the point of contact with the main body chassis. This works as a suspension to absorb vibrations from the optical drive module.
The power supply unit has a capacity of 350W, which is high output for a game machine. It is not a fully enclosed unit like the optical drive because it generates a fair amount of heat. There are slits at the front end and the end of the plastic case, so that the air from the air-cooling fan goes out through the slits.
The air from the fan is designed to have a "crosstalk curve" (a curve whose curvature varies in proportion to the length of the curve) and is designed to collide with the intake slit of the power supply module.
The cooling design leaves the possibility of further improvement
In addition to the temperature sensor inside the APU, PS5 has three temperature sensors on the main board to control the fan speed based on the internal temperature of the APU and the highest temperature of the three temperature sensors.
It is interesting to note that these fan control parameters will also be updated via online updates.
Otori: Various games will be released in the future, and data on the APU's behavior in each game will be collected. We have a plan to optimize the fan control based on this data.
The PS5's thermal design, including the speed of the air-cooled fans, is said to have a generous margin of safety. If a game is under heavy load for a long period of time, they can increase the fan speed to enhance cooling performance, even at the expense of quietness. This is an interesting story.
Lastly, Mr. Otori had a word for PS fans.
Otori: We are working at full capacity in the factory to make this product available to those who want it. We've done our best to make it available to those who want it, so please buy it!
(There are some images at the link.)
Zenji Nishikawa's 3DGE: I'll tell you how to make PS5. The internal design of the PS5, according to a mechanical designer(in Japanese)
西川善司の3DGE：PS5の作り方、教えます。メカ設計担当者に聞いたこだわりの内部設計
2020年10月7日，SIEが公開した「PlayStation 5」の公式分解動画は大きな反響をもたらした。この中では，液体金属を採用した熱伝導材料など，初めて公開となるトピックがいくつかあった。今回は分解動画に登場したPS5のメカ設計を担当する鳳 康宏氏へのインタビューをもとに，より詳細な解説を行いたい。
www.4gamer.net
Why do we use liquid metal in the main cooling system's TIM?
Next to the exterior, I'd like to talk about the main board, as SIE calls the front side of the board "Side A" and the back side "Side B", so this article follows suit.
As mentioned earlier, the APU, the main processor, is mounted on side A. Three SSD flash memory chips are mounted on each side of the board on both sides. The edge of the board has a large slit to accommodate the fan.
Otori: The electric fan is designed to blow air on both sides of the board, side A and side B. The material of the fan is polyvinyl fiberglass. The fan is made of glass fiber polybutylene terephthalate. The advantage of this material is that it is strong and its shape is minimally deformed by heat. The number of vanes is calculated based on the balance between the required positive pressure and air volume. The fan is designed with enough margin to avoid the failure of the main unit even in a very severe environment.
The fan is 120mm in diameter and 45mm in thickness, which is quite large and thick for an electric fan mounted on a game machine. The reason for this is to achieve a high level of quietness by rotating the large fan slowly. Although the company does not disclose the nominal fan noise level, it can be said that "under normal usage and specification conditions, the fan is quieter than the early PlayStation 3 and PS4".
The cooling system for the APU on the A-side of the main board was carefully designed by Otori's team. The best example of this is the use of liquid metal for the timings.
Otori: We have wanted to use liquid metal for a long time. However, since liquid metal is conductive, if it leaks to the board side, it will cause a short circuit. Above all, liquid metal is highly corrosive to aluminum, which is used for components such as heat sinks. When handling such materials, measures are required for manufacturing facilities. We spent more than two years preparing for these problems.
Although the composition of the liquid metal and the manufacturer of the joint venture were not disclosed, it is said that a common gallium-based alloy is used for the liquid metal-based TIM. However, in the interview, he emphasized that it was a proprietary product custom made by SIE.
In the disassembled video of TIM, you can see a sponge-like component around the APU part. This prevents the liquid metal from leaking out to the board side.
Liquid metal TIM also exists for PC CPUs and is used among CPU overclockers, for example. However, as Otori says, there are problems with conductivity and corrosion. There is even a warning to use copper-based heat sinks in TIM for PCs.
Why did you spend more than two years to use such a difficult material?
Otori: The main reason is cost. In thermal design, you have to put the cost close to the heat source. As a general thermal design metaphor, let's say you spend 10 yen for a TIM and 1,000 yen for a heat sink in the cooling structure of a certain system. If you change to a 100 yen TIM, you can get the same cooling effect with a 500 yen heat sink. In other words, you can reduce the total cost.
Even after overcoming the difficulties in handling and manufacturing, liquid metal was finally used in PS5 to achieve a great effect.
The main heat sink that cools the APU is connected to the board through the A-side shield plate made of galvanized steel plate (SPCC: Steel Plate Cold Commercial). The APU portion of the A-side shielding plate has a square hole in it so that the block part of the heat sink will directly contact with the APU.
Otori: The heat sink is made of aluminum, but the block in contact with the APU is made of copper. However, can you see that this block is plated in silver? This is to prevent corrosion from liquid metal.
As mentioned earlier, gallium-based liquid metals are highly corrosive to aluminum, but copper is said to be able to withstand that. However, according to the tests conducted by the PS5 development team, even copper is not completely resistant to the gallium-based metal used in this project, TIM, so they are also taking measures to protect it with plating.
Cooling the back of the board was more difficult than the surface
The B-side, which is the back side of the machine, has many highlights as well, and the B-side is dotted with reasonably large heat sources such as GDDR6 memory, DC/DC power circuits, and flash memory chips.
How are these parts of the device being treated for heat?
Otori: Actually, we are more concerned with the cooling of the B-side of the device than the A-side. Looking back, it may have been easier to deal with side A because we could foresee the high heat source in advance (laughs). In fact, the B-side has as much heat as a PS4's APU, so we had to cover the B-side. That's why the shield board covering the B-side can be used as a heat sink.
According to Otori, the B-side of the board is not made of galvanized steel, as the A-side is, but of aluminum, which has excellent thermal conductivity and heat dissipation.
The outer side of the aluminum shield board has a small three-dimensional heat-dissipating fin, and the inner side where it makes contact with the B-side has a heat pipe, making it look like a shield board as well as a heat-dissipating plate. This heat pipe is connected to the heat sink mainly for the purpose of heat transfer from the DC/DC power supply circuit. The wind from the cooling fan flows through the shield board and wipes away the heat.
By the way, if you look closely at the inside of the shield board, you can see that the ground surface is coated with gray material. What is this?
Otori: It's TIM. It's applied to the shield board, the DC/DC power supply circuitry, the GDDR6 memory, the SSD flash memory and the part where the heat source is installed. It's used to transfer heat from the heat source to the shield board.
The TIM applied to the shield looks like a round rubber sheet, but it is in liquid form during the manufacturing process. It hardens over time and eventually takes on a rubber-like texture, according to the company. The chips, which are the heat source of the chips, are expected to have a certain amount of variation in height, but this TIM can absorb that variation because it is in liquid form when it is applied.
Otori: The use of this TIM is closely related to the manufacturing process. The process of peeling off the backing board is difficult to accomplish with a robotic arm. The injector method (to inject the liquid TIM) is a good match for automatic machine production.
Optical drive and power supply unit
Let's take a look at the remaining optical drive (UHD BD drive) and the power supply unit. The optical drive is completely enclosed in a steel case, which appears to be a disadvantageous structure from a heat dissipation point of view. Why is it designed like this?
Otori: As you mentioned, we focused on quietness and vibration control. Optical drives, which are capable of high-speed reading, generate a certain amount of noise and vibration when the optical discs spin at high speeds. In some cases, a disc with a sticker affixed to the surface of the disc may be inserted. Since the weight of such discs is imbalanced, they generate more noise and vibration. This is the structure of the optical drive in order to reduce noise and vibration.
The optical drive module is equipped with a double insulator at the point of contact with the main body chassis. This works as a suspension to absorb vibrations from the optical drive module.
The power supply unit has a capacity of 350W, which is high output for a game machine. It is not a fully enclosed unit like the optical drive because it generates a fair amount of heat. There are slits at the front end and the end of the plastic case, so that the air from the air-cooling fan goes out through the slits.
The air from the fan is designed to have a "crosstalk curve" (a curve whose curvature varies in proportion to the length of the curve) and is designed to collide with the intake slit of the power supply module.
The cooling design leaves the possibility of further improvement
In addition to the temperature sensor inside the APU, PS5 has three temperature sensors on the main board to control the fan speed based on the internal temperature of the APU and the highest temperature of the three temperature sensors.
It is interesting to note that these fan control parameters will also be updated via online updates.
Otori: Various games will be released in the future, and data on the APU's behavior in each game will be collected. We have a plan to optimize the fan control based on this data.
The PS5's thermal design, including the speed of the air-cooled fans, is said to have a generous margin of safety. If a game is under heavy load for a long period of time, they can increase the fan speed to enhance cooling performance, even at the expense of quietness. This is an interesting story.
Lastly, Mr. Otori had a word for PS fans.
Otori: We are working at full capacity in the factory to make this product available to those who want it. We've done our best to make it available to those who want it, so please buy it!
Thank you orzkare for posting!
Reading it now, but this immediately grabbed my attention:
Reading it now, but this immediately grabbed my attention:
Supporting up to 8mm high heatsinks on the SSD. That should cover a lot of the sane ones, right?
Thanks so much for posting the interview orzkare
This is also interesting:
Like I said, calculating the volume takes a bit of care when it's something that's curved. Sure, the PS5 looks bigger, but the XSX looks terribly awkward on its side. Apparently it's not a coincidence they both weigh about the same.
I expected that they accounted for some airflow through the SSD, but I couldn't be sure from the video.
Even though I somehow missed the whole Chad Warden thing with the PS3, I feel like a silver-plated copper cooling block would have gone over quite well, lol.
This is also interesting:
I'm currently backing up my PS4 to an external drive and I noticed that system has a distinction between "back-up" and "external storage. Has Sony clarified the PS5 will read a exFAT formatted drive with PS4 games, or only if it is used as external storage from your PS4?
Move your games as installation rather than backup archive. It is plug and play that way.
Just your games though. Captures and whatever else can't be copied afaik
The part is "Toshiba 3D TLC G9T24, 128GB" according to this page: https://www.chinaflashmarket.com/Product/Detail/NANDFlash/10841
Can't find much more about it, though.
Ah so they have 6 of those for the PS. I wonder if we could figure the TBW amount also looks like they could go up to 256 in a larger capacity model
I thought the TBW depended on the way the controller handles wear leveling, not just the NAND module.
Ah you're right so sony could have a special way to wear level
Maybe. Kioxia/Toshiba seems to use almost the same type of flash in their RC500 series SSDs, released in November 2019. According to this review, the chips used there have part number TH58LJT0T24BS8C, whereas the PS5 part number is TH58LJT0T24BA4C. According to Toshiba's part number decoder, "BS" vs. "BA" refers to a difference in packaging, whereas "8" vs "4" means that the PS5 chip is "dual channel" whereas the chip used in their SSD is "single/dual channel". I don't think those differences have any bearing on write endurance, and I assume their controller is equally good at wear-levelling, so the write endurance for their SSD is probably in the right ballpark. And it is specified as 100 TBW for their 250 GB model and 200 TBW for their 500 GB model. Extrapolating to the 825 GB of the PS5, it would be 330 TBW.
Interesting so 33TB a year should last about ten years, I'm really curious about the controller, are they usually that large? I understand that they are ARM based processors
I guess the controller needs more pins to access more flash channels in parallel, and the 12 channels used in the PS5 are a lot.
Yeah. Also looking back at this post from fof real it makes me wonder just how much is Sony doing with the SSD. Also mad kudos to gofreak he callled a lot of the SSD stuff based on these patents. Especially with Sony doing more priority lanes Which might in fact save in memory. And I recall cerny saying they didn't have to go crazy with ram because of their solution it makes me wonder if this also enables them to do a lot with their OS this gen.
I mentioned some other Japanese SIE patents by the same inventor, around SSDs - I couldn't initially find their full text, but managed to track them down.
They have some interesting stuff.
AGAIN, A CAVEAT: Don't take it to mean this is what SIE is definitely using in PS5. It gives an idea of what Sony has been thinking about and researching, but maybe these things didn't work out. Or maybe they're now doing something different. Indeed maybe they're fairly bog-standard ideas, or variants on pretty normal things - I'm not a SSD expert! Perhaps they're using ideas like this, or parts of them, or maybe none of them at all :)
This first one talks about a NAND flash controller optimised to provide a maximum worst-case delay for high priority reads from a SSD. It suggests that with the high speed of SSDs, the potential is there for applications to save system memory by delaying some data loads until needed - urgent 'on the spot' data requests from SSD - instead of preloading a lot of data into memory. However using a SSD like this causes a corresponding increase in the frequency of management tasks that the SSD needs to perform in order to keep things working and maintain durability. These management commands can interrupt and delay requests from the application, leading to inconsistent read latency, making the SSD unreliable for frequent on-demand data access. As an example it talks about using data from the SSD during current frame rendering - but if there's a delay, you'll have stuttering or frame freezing.
So it describes in lots of low level detail a flash controller that manages queues of commands of varying priority, predicts when management commands are likely to be made based on access patterns, and juggles these queues to ensure management tasks are performed, while high priority reads get through with a known worst-case delay.
The controller can also accept signals from the application (the game) that hint to the flash controller when it is a good time to perform management tasks, or to pre-emptively do so. It illustrates this example of a game rendering frames using data requested 'on the spot' from the ssd, and signalling to the flash controller in between frames that it's a good time to prioritise any management tasks.
(The shaded '5' is periods of management command processing...the other periods are fulfillment of urgent read requests for each frame)
That's one example, but the host/application could send these signals whenever it knows it's a good time for the SSD to do management stuff.
I'm not sure if something like this would require custom hardware, but I guess if they were using something like that, it would at least require custom firmware in the flash controller on the SSD - for those weighing the odds around whether the SSD will be a proprietary/custom unit.
The second patent is an interesting idea - using the SSD and the SRAM talked about it the other patent as the working memory for the OS in stand by mode, in order to reduce power consumption. Normally in a standby mode the system keeps some DRAM memory 'alive', but doing that with DRAM requires sending power to the memory periodically to refresh it. This patent talks about using the SSD and some SRAM cache as the working memory instead - I guess SRAM doesn't need this power cycling? End result being lower power consumption.
So installing 3300, 100gb games for the minimum guaranteed life of the drive and then presumably your useable space will shrink over time.
Is this your straight face?
Please ignore the buzzing sound coming from behind the wall.
yep that's a lot of games. Average person may only have 10 and more hard core prob hundreds so def would last a long ass time lol
Was about to post this. So i'm confused by why the dude in the Twitter thread claims RDNA1 is only 5 instructions per clock. (Locuza I summon thee)
Also, when the original tweeter mentions "Front End" are they referring to the GPU FE, or the DCU Front-End? It's not really clear.
I don't think that guy has much knowledge, he said that to quickly shutdown the rumour but he was wrong.
The PS4 has just over 4000 games total right? You could install the whole library.
RDNA2 enables premetive shader(NGG calling) by default on Open GL.
radeonsi: enable NGG culling by default on gfx10.3 dGPUs
gitlab.freedesktop.org
radeonsi: enable NGG culling by default on Navi1x PRO cards
gitlab.freedesktop.org
// Represents configuration of static registers relevant to hardware primitive shader (NGG).
github.com
radeonsi: enable NGG culling by default on gfx10.3 dGPUs
radeonsi: enable NGG culling by default on gfx10.3 dGPUs (7648060d) · Commits · Mesa / mesa · GitLab
for better performance Acked-by: Pierre-Eric Pelloux-Prayer Part-of:
gitlab.freedesktop.org
radeonsi: enable NGG culling by default on Navi1x PRO cards
radeonsi: enable NGG culling by default on Navi1x PRO cards (57d31786) · Commits · Mesa / mesa · GitLab
Acked-by: Pierre-Eric Pelloux-Prayer Part-of:
gitlab.freedesktop.org
// Represents configuration of static registers relevant to hardware primitive shader (NGG).
llpc/lgc/patch/Gfx9Chip.h at 93e40124f5067c8e932398204077843fb8445594 · GPUOpen-Drivers/llpc
LLVM-Based Pipeline Compiler. Contribute to GPUOpen-Drivers/llpc development by creating an account on GitHub.
github.com
Watch Dogs: Legions will be 4k/30/RT, no confirmation if this is the only mode. https://mp1st.com/news/watch-dogs-l...-on-ps5-and-xsx-ray-tracing-support-confirmed
- Status