PlayStation 5 System Architecture Deep Dive |OT| Secret Agent Cerny [SEE 4/1 STAFF POST]

How much do you think the PS5 will cost?

  • $399

    Votes: 661 31.3%
  • $449

    Votes: 615 29.1%
  • $499

    Votes: 677 32.1%
  • 25 Bags of Walnuts

    Votes: 159 7.5%

  • Total voters
    2,112

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,534
Cerny on GPU performance expectations:


With regards to the capped boost frequency of 2.28Ghz / 10.3TF.
but what happens to the cpu frequency then? surely it cant stay at 3.5 ghz. we know the cpu is probably 20-30w max based on the 4800u apu, how much can they really save by downgrading the cpu clocks? 5-10w?
 

SG-17

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,843
What John is saying sounds pretty right to me! I don't want to down play GPU power, but I promise everybody that you will be absolutely blown away by visuals on both consoles. However, the SSDs are the big difference when coming into this gen. We're not talking about "load times" in the classic sense. That's an antiquated way of thinking about data coming from your hard drive. For the last 10+ years we've been streaming worlds on the fly. The problem is that our assets are absolutely huge now, as are our draw distances, and our hard drives can't keep up. It means that as you move through the world we're trying to detect and even predict what assets need loading. Tons of constraints get put into place due to this streaming speed.

An ultra fast drive like the one in PS5 means you could be load in the highest level LOD asset for your models way further than you could before and make worlds any way you want without worry of it streaming in fast enough. The PS5 drive is so fast I imagine you could load up entire neighborhoods in a city with all of their maps at super high resolution in a blink of an eye. It's exciting. People don't realize that this will also affect visuals in a big way. If we can stream in bigger worlds and stream in the highest detail texture maps available, it will just look so much better.

I think the Xbox drive is also good! The PS5 drive is just "dream level" architecture though.
I love hearing stuff like this. Really seems that the PS5 is going to be the biggest jump in the way games are made since the mid-90s.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,534
I expect what we'll see in cross-platform games is that higher quality textures get loaded more rapidly on the PS5, leading to less texture popping. Look at a game like Spider Man where they stream in a moderate quality version of content first, and then backfill with high quality textures over time. That's already a common practice and will simply work more seamlessly in one environment than the other.

... and of course the AAA exclusives will happen, and they're going to be the showcases that call for everyone to up their game. If they become the must-have visual benchmarks for the generation then that's all goodness from my perspective. They're often some of the titles I look forward to the most in any case. I probably get fewer titles a year for my Switch and I'm still happy with that purchase. YMMV.



It will be interesting to see, but I've certainly worked with silicon where this was absolutely the case. You had to design for the thermal extremes even though the kind of code that triggered them was vanishingly rare in practice. It's usually not a question of whether the CPU or GPU is kept busy, but rather whether the same specific functional blocks are continually stressed without a chance to cool. I worked closely with the teams who did this kind of work on device you've probably owned, so it's not just theoretical - this is actually how it often works in practice.



Somewhere in the 2-3% range sounds entirely plausible. When reaching the higher clock rates power draw scales with the cube of the clock frequency, so a 3% drop in clock speed could lower draw from a 114W ceiling to 104W, as just one example.



They face the exact same issues and made different design decisions, with Sony opting to push GPU clocks and come up with a dynamic clocking system that is still deterministic, which is quite clever.



We will see in due course, and it will likely be real-time gameplay rather than just in-engine trailers. There simply is no pressing reason to showcase everything six to eight months ahead of time. None. This clearly wasn't a games showcase, and I don't see any reason why you need to couple something like this with a games reveal. Instead, I expect each game will have its own trailer releases and information cadence leading up to launch. It's one of the advantages of not having to fill an E3 style press conference.



That was inevitable no matter what was shown. Expecting everything to be laid out this far before launch was simply not realistic, nor would it be wise for Sony. They want interest to peak at launch, not months beforehand.
this is a very interesting and informative post. thanks.

i am watching the DF direct right now, and richard also mentioned how some smartphones and other devices use this kind of clock pushing based on load. ive just never seen it before. its weird this goes against everything sony used to believe.

it will be very interesting to see what happens come launch.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,039
but what happens to the cpu frequency then? surely it cant stay at 3.5 ghz. we know the cpu is probably 20-30w max based on the 4800u apu, how much can they really save by downgrading the cpu clocks? 5-10w?
Honestly, no clue. There's a trade-off there for sure, but we would need the formula to determine the actual numbers. From what we've heard from developers though, it's not something to worry about it seems.
 

Joule

Member
Nov 19, 2017
1,369
2020 sure is interesting. Journalists show their fanboy colors and make dishonest reporting. I also wasn’t aware how many engineering experts were on resetera. People on here know more about PS5 than Cerny does
 

Pheonix

Member
Dec 14, 2018
2,586
St Kitts
can you try and get an interview with cerny by any chance? i would love to hear some more details on this variable clock stuff. some of the math doesnt add up. how far would the cpu have to be throtlled back to hit 2.3 ghz? would it result in framerate issues? how can a 2% decrease in clockspeed or 44mhz result in a 10w increase in a gpu? cerny told DF it isnt linear so they must be cooking up something insane. why didnt ms go with this if its an amd solution?

can you also confirm if vrs and machine learning are in the gpu? cerny didnt mention it in deep dive.
Its an AMD solution as it's used in their laptop APUs. Sony just dialed it up to 11.

As to why MS didn't just go with this? Design choices priorities. Note sony is using some die space to put staff in the chip that's not in the MSchip, hardware specifically made to make the most of their SSD solution and circumvent all the bottlenecks and that is why they have their 1-second loading as opposed to what is likely to be 8-second loading in the XSX.

Obviously, sony believes having a faster SSD is better than having a higher TF number. It has clearly been at the center of their entire console design.
 

DrKeo

Member
Mar 3, 2019
2,040
Israel
I know everyone is disappointed the PS5 SSD is only 825 GB, but I don't think they're taking into account how much smaller games will be without duplicated assets, and basically free compression. Can't wait to see the results.
One of the biggest data duplicating examples we have is Spider-man and it had only 20% of the install size used for duplications. So expect games to get x2-x4 larger while no data duplication will get them 20% smaller. 100GB will probably be next-gen's lower limit.

I really hope Sony will have a 1.65TB SKU, 825GB is just not enough for me. 825GB is 768GB and that's before the OS, the SSD data structure, preinstalled apps, space dedicated to quick resuming of games and space dedicated to virtual memory. I wouldn't be surprised if we will only get 600GB-650GB of free space for games. I really need a 1.65TB SKU, at launch.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,441
this is a very interesting and informative post. thanks.

i am watching the DF direct right now, and richard also mentioned how some smartphones and other devices use this kind of clock pushing based on load. ive just never seen it before. its weird this goes against everything sony used to believe.

it will be very interesting to see what happens come launch.
You have it wrong he used those eg to show it's not like that .
It's something different that has not been done is this way before.
 

Shambala

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,229
You have it wrong he used those eg to show it's not like that .
It's something different that has not been done is this way before.
Exactly. Some people don’t pay attention. He said the exact opposite of what he typed. It’s a boost that’s never been used before in devices. Not a typical boost as people see in regular cards/ phones.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,799
Barcelona Spain
Considering it will be extremely rare that a game, if any game at all, will need part of the 3.5GB as VRAM (and still, it's 336GB/s, faster than the 4K Xbox One, it's not like it's DDR4 or something. It's still usable as VRAM for lower priority uses), the XSX memory solution is much better than the PS5's but at the same time, it's more expensive. Not only that MS had to add another 64-bit worth of controllers on the APU, making it bigger, they also have to buy 10 chips instead of Sony's 8 chips. even though it's the same amount of RAM, MS is paying a bit more because they are buying more chips.

IMO that's the PS5's weak point, not the TF count. the PS5's GPU is more powerful than the 5700 XT and the 5700 XT has the same bandwidth, 448GB/s. At the same time, the PS5's 448GB/s will have to deal with 4K (while the 5700 XT is labeled by AMD as a 1440p card), RT (which is a big bandwidth hog and the 5700 XT doesn't have that either) and share it with a CPU. It probably won't be a big problem, but IMO this is the PS5's biggest weakness, not the TF count. In the end, it will probably just manifest itself in developers having a harder time hitting 4K, which I don't think is a big deal.

Like I've said before during the jolly Github days, I won't be surprised if the only difference between the PS5 and the XSX in 3rd party games will be 1800p VS 2160p and in reconstructed games 1800p reconstructed VS 2160p reconstructed. TBH, I can't tell the difference between 1800p and 2160p on my 4K 65" LG.


I only have one request Transistor, make mine the worst. I mean really bad, like worse than chris 1515.


I would argue that every PS5/XSX CPU core is more powerful than the whole of PS4's Jaguar CPU. They are similar in power, but a single core will outperform a multithreaded 8 core CPU with the same power because it has less overhead.
I hate the bandwidth memory in PS5. Other stuff are ok.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,534
You have it wrong he used those eg to show it's not like that .
It's something different that has not been done is this way before.
i am so confused by this shit. lmao.

i did watch through the gpu section and he does say they capped it at 2.28 but they technically couldve gone with a higher clock.

i wonder if the 80 cu can hit 2.5 ghz on pc. that would be nuts. 25 tflops. all you need after that is a 7.5gbps ssd and you've got a ps5 pro at launch.
 

-Le Monde-

Avenger
Dec 8, 2017
3,909
i am so confused by this shit. lmao.

i did watch through the gpu section and he does say they capped it at 2.28 but they technically couldve gone with a higher clock.

i wonder if the 80 cu can hit 2.5 ghz on pc. that would be nuts. 25 tflops. all you need after that is a 7.5gbps ssd and you've got a ps5 pro at launch.
Sans all the exclusives. 😋
 

Liabe Brave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,134
Because Mr. Cerny said that when it drops, it's projected to be by "a couple percent". As long as the drop is less than 3%, PS5 will remain at 10 TF, not 9. It would take a ~7% speed drop to get them below 9.5TF, and a 13% drop to get them to 9TF.

lel PS5 does not have advantages in rasterization or geometry stuff.
It has advantage over a GPU of similar configuration with lower clock speed (e.g. 5700) but not a bigger GPU, because the count and size of those special units also scale with CU count.
No, rasterization does not scale with number of CUs. The RBEs are separate hardware, attached to the Shader Engine frontend in AMD terminology. The XSX and PS5 have the same number of them, but PS5's are clocked much higher. Its pixel fillrate will be above XSX.

I hope it runs as close to 10.3 teraflops as possible 99% of the time, as it's already 1.7 teraflops behind in performance and that could be a gap for some demanding titles when you start throwing in real-time ray tracing too.
I believe that AMD's raytracing solution runs on the TMUs, and that TMU performance scales with clocks and not just CU counts. In that case PS5 is likely to perform behind XSX due to the overall compute gap, but adding raytracing won't make the performance difference even larger.
 

turboviolence

Member
Oct 27, 2017
178
One of the biggest data duplicating examples we have is Spider-man and it had only 20% of the install size used for duplications. So expect games to get x2-x4 larger while no data duplication will get them 20% smaller. 100GB will probably be next-gen's lower limit.

I really hope Sony will have a 1.65TB SKU, 825GB is just not enough for me. 825GB is 768GB and that's before the OS, the SSD data structure, preinstalled apps, space dedicated to quick resuming of games and space dedicated to virtual memory. I wouldn't be surprised if we will only get 600GB-650GB of free space for games. I really need a 1.65TB SKU, at launch.
Do we have any other examples of the typical data duplication cost? Also, just glidin' over the compression part, eh? Kraken is a REALLY good compressor, and it will essentially be free on PS5. Here's a blog post comparing some compressors.
 

Shambala

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,229
User Banned (5 days): Hostility, history of similar behaviour
Some of this wasn't explained in enough detail, but I personally think the reality could be more than a 2% drop in those "worst case scenarios." We'll see later this year. I hope it runs as close to 10.3 teraflops as possible 99% of the time, as it's already 1.7 teraflops behind in performance and that could be a gap for some demanding titles when you start throwing in real-time ray tracing too.
Stuff like this is why we can’t take most gaming journalism seriously. Instead of doing research when the time is right. He is out here just speculating on what he thinks may happen with no type of proof. Top journalistic integrity here folks 🙌
 

ObbyDent

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,657
Los Angeles
Some of this wasn't explained in enough detail, but I personally think the reality could be more than a 2% drop in those "worst case scenarios." We'll see later this year. I hope it runs as close to 10.3 teraflops as possible 99% of the time, as it's already 1.7 teraflops behind in performance and that could be a gap for some demanding titles when you start throwing in real-time ray tracing too.
where is your proof behind your claims my guy

Why are you fully guessing as an editor of a tech journalism website

Leave the guessing to keyboard warriors pls
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,799
Barcelona Spain

Pheonix

Member
Dec 14, 2018
2,586
St Kitts
lel PS5 does not have advantages in rasterization or geometry stuff.
It does.
You probably interpreted my explanation wrong. I meant, for example, PS5 may have 2x rasterization units running at 1x speed, but XSX has 3x raster units running at 0.8x the speed, the resulting throughput is still higher for XSX.
By your point, a 5500 overclocked to insanely high will run better than a 2080Ti, that's obviously not the case.
Thts not how it works. The Raster units aren't tied to the CUs they are tied to the SEs, of which both the PS5 and XSX has the same amount.

Beaten by Liabe Brave with an awesome post no less.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,922
Do we have any other examples of the typical data duplication cost? Also, just glidin' over the compression part, eh? Kraken is a REALLY good compressor, and it will essentially be free on PS5. Here's a blog post comparing some compressors.
Wow, thanks for the great article! Here's an excerpt:
Kraken is just amazingly strong. It has a very high ratio with ground breaking decompression performance. There is nothing else like it in the open source world. Kraken's decompressor runs circles around the other high-ratio codecs (LZHAM, Brotli, Zstd) and is even faster than zlib!
Note: zlib is what the XSX is using according to articles.
 

ImaginaShawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,645
Stuff like this is why we can’t take most gaming journalism seriously. Instead of doing research when the time is right. He is out here just speculating on what he thinks may happen with no type of proof. Top journalistic integrity here folks 🙌
Believes fraud Klee, calls out legit journalist Tom Warren.

Checks out.
 

tomwarren

Senior Editor, The Verge
Verified
Apr 18, 2018
119
Because Mr. Cerny said that when it drops, it's projected to be by "a couple percent". As long as the drop is less than 3%, PS5 will remain at 10 TF, not 9. It would take a ~7% speed drop to get them below 9.5TF, and a 13% drop to get them to 9TF.
It would take only a 3% drop to take it below 10TF and into the 9TF area.
 

Kaelan

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,051
Maryland
One of the biggest data duplicating examples we have is Spider-man and it had only 20% of the install size used for duplications. So expect games to get x2-x4 larger while no data duplication will get them 20% smaller. 100GB will probably be next-gen's lower limit.

I really hope Sony will have a 1.65TB SKU, 825GB is just not enough for me. 825GB is 768GB and that's before the OS, the SSD data structure, preinstalled apps, space dedicated to quick resuming of games and space dedicated to virtual memory. I wouldn't be surprised if we will only get 600GB-650GB of free space for games. I really need a 1.65TB SKU, at launch.
I assumed 825 was after the OS And everything.. made the most sense to me at least
 

Shpeshal Ed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,191
Melbourne, Australia
Stuff like this is why we can’t take most gaming journalism seriously. Instead of doing research when the time is right. He is out here just speculating on what he thinks may happen with no type of proof. Top journalistic integrity here folks 🙌
i know right?

 

mikeys_legendary

The Fallen
Sep 26, 2018
1,406
So the PS5 isn't as powerful as the XSX...I kind of expected that.

The XSX is the higher end model though right? Or has there been any info about the lower specced one getting canned? We've heard nothing about it yet.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
14,889
Not America
What intrigues me is the lack of talk about Adaptive/Variable Rate Shading and Machine Learning (DLSS has tangible benefits) from PS5's RDNA2 reveal. Given the smaller CU count and consequently, comparatively less powerful RT capability, these performance saving features would be great boons.

It would be quite disappointing if PS5 lacks these features.
 

Pantato

Member
Nov 5, 2019
35
I am surprised that some people chose not to understand what Cerny is trying to achieve with the power load balancing between the GPU and CPU. When a game frame rate tank down below the intended FPS target, it's never because of both GPU and CPU. If at some point in time, the bottleneck is the CPU, the system will decrease the GPU frequency a bit and redirect this power to the CPU. If the bottleneck is the GPU, which I suspect is 99% of the case then, it will let it run at full 2.23GHz frequency while decreasing the power to the CPU. I find this really smart.