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Wereroku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,247
Everyone saying "but they still need to hack into your account first, no big deal." While technically correct, it'd be a bit like living in a castle and saying "well, the front gates fallen off, but they've still got to jump the moat." It's an expected layer of additional security that is expected, especially since people had to start paying for PSPlus. You don't ignore the failure of one layer just because you've got a backup.
The issue is they are trying to call this an exploit. It's not it is a convenience feature. It saves you time from having to enter your cvv each time you order. Amazon does the same thing and probably MS as well. Ignoring the fact that someone has to get their login compromised for this to matter is a pretty big thing to ignore.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
So someone has to have access to my account to be able to use this? Also, my PSN requests the last few digits, expiry details and the CCV (I believe you can set it to require your password each time too), so presumably this exploit wouldn't work, or is only for certain regions or for certain set ups?

Either way, if there is an exploit they need to sort the shit out.
 

Rowsdower

Prophet of Truth - The Wise Ones
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,572
Canada
What a sec. This is the exact same thing that occurs on Xbox. I have my credit card linked to my Microsoft account, and I just bought Paradox Soul to test (since it's cheap and on sale). I was never asked for the CVV/security code. The purchase went through with no issues. So if someone had my Microsoft account info, they could use my card with no issues.

This doesn't seem like an exploit then, but Sony and MS not requiring an extra step for purchases.
 

Wereroku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,247
So someone has to have access to my account to be able to use this? Also, my PSN requests the last few digits, expiry details and the CCV (I believe you can set it to require your password each time too), so presumably this exploit wouldn't work, or is only for certain regions or for certain set ups?

Either way, they need to sort this shit out.
There's nothing to sort out except adding a feature that requires ccv confirmation with each purchase.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
There's nothing to sort out except adding a feature that requires ccv confirmation with each purchase.
I already have that feature though. As well as the requirement for the re-entry of other card details too. Are these just user decided security or convenience features? Same as you get on Amazon, Apple etc?

All I want to know is, can someone buy something on my account without having to re-enter my relevant card details, even though I have it set up so they need to be re-entered?
 

Gallows Bat

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
343
Haven't hard a card attached since the hack. I just buy cards on amazon which get delivered instantly. Sonys network is a joke.
 

Rowsdower

Prophet of Truth - The Wise Ones
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,572
Canada
I already have that feature though. As well as the requirement for the re-entry of other card details too. Are these just user decided security or convenience features? Same as you get on Amazon, Apple etc?

All I want to know is, can someone buy something on my account without having to re-enter my relevant card details, even though I have it set up so they need to be re-entered.

No. If you don't add extra security, the default purchase option with a linked card/paypal on PSN or Xbox Live will not ask for the CVV/security code. The purchase will just go through. If you add the option that a CVV always has to be asked, then the hacker would need to get all your credit card details to do anything.
 

Daggoth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
661
I've got the opposite problem. No matter how complex my password is, it'll say each time without fail when making a purchase (even free stuff!) "your last login was on a different console. Confirm your CC expiry and CVV"

Which I don't mind at all.

But unless this article's trying to say that the details can be extracted and used on other accounts, I'm not seeing the issue. Other vendors can store the CVV verification with the card info already? Or whatever the technical details are?
 

Wereroku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,247
I already have that feature though. As well as the requirement for the re-entry of other card details too. Are these just user decided security or convenience features? Same as you get on Amazon, Apple etc?

All I want to know is, can someone buy something on my account without having to re-enter my relevant card details, even though I have it set up so they need to be re-entered.
Basically if your account is compromised someone can add another account as a family member and give them authorization to purchase using your card. Basically this could be fixed by requiring a cvv be entered when you add a family account. However again this requires your account to be fully compromised and have no two factor setup.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
No. If you don't add extra security, the default purchase option with a linked card/paypal on PSN or Xbox Live will not ask for the CVV/security code. The purchase will just go through. If you add the option that a CVV always has to be asked, then the hacker would need to get all your credit card details to do anything.

Ahh fair enough. So it works the same as Amazon then. Default is ticking the box that saves your card details for quicker future purchases (only when logged in), but you have the option for added security too (re-entry of card details, re-entry of password etc). Sort of seems like that's on the user, not really an exploit.
 

Wereroku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,247
Ahh fair enough. So it works the same as Amazon then. Default is ticking the box that saves your card details for quicker future purchases (only when logged in), but you have the option for added security too (re-entry of card details, re-entry of password etc). Sort of seems like that's on the user, not really an exploit.
The only issue is sony doesn't have the option to require reentry of card details. It's only reentry of password which isn't hard when your account is compromised. However I am pretty sure this same thing would work on all of the consoles.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
Good point about Amazon not asking for CVV. Shit, I can't recall the last time I put my CVV in there! But my guess is that people think Sony should ask for it on more transactions if not every one of them because of their history with lax security.

But people's opinion on such an arbitrary thing is neither a "hack", "bug" nor an "exploit" o r"security vulnerability" as is being presented here.

It will come down to Sony's policy on this. Every company is different.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
The only issue is sony doesn't have the option to require reentry of card details. It's only reentry of password which isn't hard when your account is compromised. However I am pretty sure this same thing would work on all of the consoles.

Mine requires the re-entry of at least the expiry dates and CCV, I think maybe even the last few digits of the card too, but I can't remember off hand.
 

Dave.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,152
Well fuck, getting up out of bed and deleting that shit now. Figure out what I'll do about it in the morning

So to be clear: You have hackers with access to your PSN account which has saved payment method of credit card details, they know your 2FA code. Can log in whenever they want, play your games, delete your Gjallarhorns or whatever. But not make purchases - previously this hasn't bothered you at all, because "well, I'm safe because the hackers don't know my card's CVV. Don't need to do anything about this situation ever". But now, it's red alert all hands on deck?
 

gogosox82

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,385
Everyone saying "but they still need to hack into your account first, no big deal." While technically correct, it'd be a bit like living in a castle and saying "well, the front gates fallen off, but they've still got to jump the moat." It's an expected layer of additional security that is expected, especially since people had to start paying for PSPlus. You don't ignore the failure of one layer just because you've got a backup.
Expect its not an exploit which is how its being framed. It a convenience feature so you don't have to put in your cvv every time you buy something. To claim its a bug when every major online retailer does this is disingenuous as hell
 

cmdrshepard

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
1,557
What a sec. This is the exact same thing that occurs on Xbox. I have my credit card linked to my Microsoft account, and I just bought Paradox Soul to test (since it's cheap and on sale). I was never asked for the CVV/security code. The purchase went through with no issues. So if someone had my Microsoft account info, they could use my card with no issues.

This doesn't seem like an exploit then, but Sony and MS not requiring an extra step for purchases.

That is not the issue. The issue is that if i somehow obtained access to your login credentials to your xbox/PSN account right? I try to sign into your account on MY xbox or PS4 and i go to the store and attempt to purchase something with your stored CC. The default security feature is that because this is the first time signed into your account on my xbox/PS4 and the first time attempting to purchase something from this console, it should ask for the CCV (at a minimum - sometimes it asks for the whole CC details again) of the stored card as a security measure.

I have personally had this happened when i moved from my PS4 base to my Pro and same for my One to my X.

Expect its not an exploit which is how its being framed. It a convenience feature so you don't have to put in your cvv every time you buy something. To claim its a bug when every major online retailer does this is disingenuous as hell

Right it is convenience feature when you are purchasing from your home console. It is a security issue when it is not being prompted when your account is being logged into and attempting to make a purchase from a PS4 you have not purchased content from before...
 

Kemono

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,669
Expect its not an exploit which is how its being framed. It a convenience feature so you don't have to put in your cvv every time you buy something. To claim its a bug when every major online retailer does this is disingenuous as hell

Sure but the arrogant sony narrative has to come from somewhere...
 

ShaiKhulud

Member
Oct 27, 2017
487
Kazan, Russia
What a clickbait. Same 'exploit' could be done at almost every online retail store.

It wouldn't hurt for PSN to add a 'ask CCV' feature, but it's hardly a problem or a major security risk. Especially when hacker needs to hack your entire account first.
 

cmdrshepard

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
1,557
What a clickbait. Same 'exploit' could be done at almost every online retail store.

It wouldn't hurt for PSN to add a 'ask CCV' feature, but it's hardly a problem or a major security risk. Especially when hacker needs to hack your entire account first.

Actually many of the major online marketplaces do checks at multiple levels including whether you are shipping to an unfamiliar address or accessing the site from the country you normally access from and do prompt if you attempt to pay by stored card.

It is not a "major" security risk as you have said as they need access to the account first but it can act as an easy double punch if your account is ever compromised as you find out your account is compromised and potentially your credit card has started raking up charges. You can't chargeback as Sony's default stance is generally to close the account, meaning you loose access to all online and digital licences/purchases, meaning you have to deal with Sony Support to reverse the charges... who have a shaky record at best in regards to that.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,328
What a clickbait. Same 'exploit' could be done at almost every online retail store.

It wouldn't hurt for PSN to add a 'ask CCV' feature, but it's hardly a problem or a major security risk. Especially when hacker needs to hack your entire account first.

Amazon will prompt for CVV when shipping to a new address as will most retailers.

Sony is allowing someone on another PS console to bypass the CVV check on purchases that's supposed to be there.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
What a sec. This is the exact same thing that occurs on Xbox. I have my credit card linked to my Microsoft account, and I just bought Paradox Soul to test (since it's cheap and on sale). I was never asked for the CVV/security code. The purchase went through with no issues. So if someone had my Microsoft account info, they could use my card with no issues.

This doesn't seem like an exploit then, but Sony and MS not requiring an extra step for purchases.
Ahh fair enough. So it works the same as Amazon then. Default is ticking the box that saves your card details for quicker future purchases (only when logged in), but you have the option for added security too (re-entry of card details, re-entry of password etc). Sort of seems like that's on the user, not really an exploit.
What a clickbait. Same 'exploit' could be done at almost every online retail store.

It wouldn't hurt for PSN to add a 'ask CCV' feature, but it's hardly a problem or a major security risk. Especially when hacker needs to hack your entire account first.

According to the report in the OP, the "exploit" is the ability to use the card for purchases on another account, on a new system.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
Yea. Im a little confused here. Read thread title, than the OP, than followed the link and read that.

So they have to know your PSN login info? That is the problem in the first place.

Since no one but me knows this info Im assuming Im safe? This feels like someone hitting the panic button for the wrong reason unless I am misunderstanding.

Edit. I understand now after looking at post history..
Trying to put some kind of fanboy spin on this is just sad. If you're gonna accuse the OP of some partisan shit then do it already.

This is just dumb, and shows a complete lack of care from Sony in customer service. We've seen how they give no shits with refunds, and I imagine if someone was affected by this exploit they'd only ever get a PSN wallet credit.
 

cmdrshepard

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
1,557
There is a lot of either mis-communication or general misunderstanding of the actual issue here and it is frustrating to see that this has essentially turned into another Sony defence and Sony attack arguments in what could have been a good general discussion about how gaming companies keep our details safe and protect consumers against different security issues. Go through and read the thread please to see that this is a security issue and that action should be taken by Sony and by anyone else that this could be potentially happening with (whether that is MS, Nintendo, Steam, Epic etc....). Surely we as consumers should expect any and all companies to protect our details and have systems in place to protect us and these accounts that we have invested time (saves, trophies/achievements) and money (purchases for digital content/subscriptions) into.
 

Sidewinder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,190
I'll take the Spyro Trilogy for free, thank you Sony!

Haven't used a credit card on PSN since 2011, but this doesn't sound really horrible at all.
 

henhowc

Member
Oct 26, 2017
33,539
Los Angeles, CA
Probably should add this part in the OP since they are purposely vague in describing the exploit so people (myself included) aren't understanding what is being exploited since everything described in the first few paragraphs sounds pretty normal for online shopping.

There are several others out there with the exact same scenario, which all pertain to the use of the Family management sub-account, something we didn't want to originally state in the article due to it being a part of the exploit.

It sounds like probably something like you hack someone's master account. Create sub-accounts and are able to use those sub-accounts to make purchases without the cvv?
 

Kyuur

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,535
Canada
They shouldn't be storing any CVVs according to security standards anyways. If your credit card allows purchases without the cvv that feels like it's on them.
 

gogosox82

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,385
Right it is convenience feature when you are purchasing from your home console. It is a security issue when it is not being prompted when your account is being logged into and attempting to make a purchase from a PS4 you have not purchased content from before...

Right but even the article admits most people will not be affected by this especially if you have 2fa enabled (which everyone should btw) and have a cc saved (probably shouldn't have it saved especially after Sony hack in 2011). So its a security issue that is only going to effect people who leave their accounts vulnerable. So should Sony fix this security issue? Yes. Is it a breach, hack, exploit, etc? No. My only concern would be how its happening but the article was so vague on that part its hard to tell what they were referring to. You could't really discern it from normal online shopping.
 

Vroadstar

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
253
There is a lot of either mis-communication or general misunderstanding of the actual issue here and it is frustrating to see that this has essentially turned into another Sony defence and Sony attack arguments in what could have been a good general discussion about how gaming companies keep our details safe and protect consumers against different security issues. Go through and read the thread please to see that this is a security issue and that action should be taken by Sony and by anyone else that this could be potentially happening with (whether that is MS, Nintendo, Steam, Epic etc....). Surely we as consumers should expect any and all companies to protect our details and have systems in place to protect us and these accounts that we have invested time (saves, trophies/achievements) and money (purchases for digital content/subscriptions) into.

I think if you someone started a thread that's not clear, to begin with, that requires a title changed at that, it will obviously lead to confusion and misunderstanding. Plus checking the post history of OP comes across as creating F.U.D. for console brand he rarely if ever comments on.

I mean you seem like level headed, yet here you are calling people "Sony defence and Sony attack arguments". Is that really necessary?

As you yourself said, this is not exclusive to Sony but can also happen to MS, Nintendo, Steam, Epic etc. yet the thread title says "Major Playstation Security Exploit" seems like OP is expecting a reaction from people (which already happened here) like 2011 incident happening all over again.
 
Aug 9, 2018
666
I think thread title should be changed again since, as others have pointed out, it is not really an exploit that disables the CCV request but a convenience feature so that you would not put in your CCV everytime you want to purchase something from the store and (again) as others have said that is present in other systems.

There will be some who will not read past "Major Playstation Security Exploit..." and then quickly leave drive by comments without knowing that, in order for this to be possible, your account would have already been compromised in the first place.
 

YuSuzzune

Member
Nov 21, 2018
4,864
Since the big outage I learned to never leave your credit card info stored online, on PSN or other services. Even on Amazon I insert my cc info only when I purchase something to remove it immediately after.
 

Velg

Member
Jan 6, 2018
498
I need some help understanding what this is. Is it that:

- Players have figured out how to use other player's credit cards to buy games on their own accounts.

Or is it
- Players who have access to other accounts can buy games on those accounts and use said games on their personal accounts.

Because if it's 2 then I don't really see the issue. If your account has been hacked already, you got bigger issues than the CCV thing
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
They shouldn't be storing any CVVs according to security standards anyways. If your credit card allows purchases without the cvv that feels like it's on them.

They're probably not.

When you take a CVV on a first payment, you exchange it with a card issuer for a token to use in subsequent transactions. The CVV is not stored.

Refreshing of the token is down to card issuer policies.

The merchant (Sony) could also force a refresh if it detects fraud on its end. And perhaps they should do so, or do so more robustly, if it detects a machine change or whatnot.

However, Sony is right in this instance that it's a matter of fraud rather than account security. At some point the system has to accept you as an authorised user, and there's no exploit or vulnerability here with regard to the user authentication side.

If you wish Sony to be more paranoid than they are about what an authorised user can do, then be more paranoid yourself - don't allow it to store payment data.

edit - side note, I'd be curious to know if Amazon forces a token refresh - cvv re-entry - upon purchase of digital goods from a new machine, as opposed to upon delivery to a new address.

edit 2 - re-reading the description, it sound like Sony does intend to refresh payment tokens when it detects a new machine, but that the cvv re-entry for this can be bypassed. Irrespective of whether the token refresh is required by the card issuer in these circumstances, if Sony intends to do it they should probably make sure it works properly! But unless card issuer policy requires that refresh in these circumstances, this is a failure of their own extra paranoia rather than a standards breach.
 
Last edited:

henhowc

Member
Oct 26, 2017
33,539
Los Angeles, CA
I need some help understanding what this is. Is it that:

- Players have figured out how to use other player's credit cards to buy games on their own accounts.

Or is it
- Players who have access to other accounts can buy games on those accounts and use said games on their personal accounts.

Because if it's 2 then I don't really see the issue. If your account has been hacked already, you got bigger issues than the CCV thing

It seems to involve something with sub accounts but they are purposely vague about it.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
Amazon hasn't ask for my CCV in, well, I order so much I am never asked. So, this sounds like clickbait by the website and OP not understanding what they are posting exactly.
 

cmdrshepard

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
1,557
I think if you someone started a thread that's not clear, to begin with, that requires a title changed at that, it will obviously lead to confusion and misunderstanding. Plus checking the post history of OP comes across as creating F.U.D. for console brand he rarely if ever comments on.

I mean you seem like level headed, yet here you are calling people "Sony defence and Sony attack arguments". Is that really necessary?

As you yourself said, this is not exclusive to Sony but can also happen to MS, Nintendo, Steam, Epic etc. yet the thread title says "Major Playstation Security Exploit" seems like OP is expecting a reaction from people (which already happened here) like 2011 incident happening all over again.

Sure - I appreciate your response and I agree with it. I was generalising about the attack and defence forces dismissively and I apologise.

Absolutely the title before the change made this out to be red alert Sony Havk 2011 2.0 which it most certainly is not but many people are simply hand waving it away without looking at the actual content of the OP regardless of whatever intention of the author may or may not have been.

I just feeel this is why we don't have nice things as they seems to be minimal discussion in good faith.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,328
Amazon hasn't ask for my CCV in, well, I order so much I am never asked. So, this sounds like clickbait by the website and OP not understanding what they are posting exactly.

Again, Amazon would prompt for CVV if you shipped to a new address.

Again, the proper PS console buying experience after logging in from a new console is to prompt for CVV regardless of any other settings. There's an exploit to bypass that.
 

Madao

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,697
Panama
this is the moment where i thank the heavens i only used prepaid cards with my PSN accounts.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Again, Amazon would prompt for CVV if you shipped to a new address.

Again, the proper PS console buying experience after logging in from a new console is to prompt for CVV regardless of any other settings. There's an exploit to bypass that.

This simply isn't true. I have posted to multiple new addresses on Amazon without it ever asking me to re-enter the CCV (eg sending gifts to friends, family etc). Like with PSN, it must be some sort of setting you have to tick or choose.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
Again, Amazon would prompt for CVV if you shipped to a new address.

Again, the proper PS console buying experience after logging in from a new console is to prompt for CVV regardless of any other settings. There's an exploit to bypass that.
I've shipped to new addresses before and never been asked. Let's be honest, this, security gap, is not exclusive to Sony.

If you're account is already hacked, you have bigger problems than a CCV code.
 

Foxnull

Alt-Account
Banned
May 30, 2019
1,651
After 2011 I haven't saved a payment method in my Playstation account and I probably never will.
 

MilesQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,490
Doesn't seem like an exploit, it's pretty much standard across all online stores that you don't have to enter your CVV any more. They want that extra hurdle in the way of you making an impulsive purchase/your kid buying hundreds of dollars worth of in game junk.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,800
This is the absolute weakest "exploit" on the planet. I could make a purchase via a new web browser and it wouldn't prompt me for the CVV number. Am I now a hackerman?
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,328
I've shipped to new addresses before and never been asked. Let's be honest, this, security gap, is not exclusive to Sony.

If you're account is already hacked, you have bigger problems than a CCV code.

No, every single time I've added a new address I've had to re-enter my credit card the first time it's used for that address.