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PlayStation Studios |OT20| Press □ to destroy C H A O S
- Thread starter JuanLatino
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Sony was planning on selling a ton more ps5 then they are selling now but the chip shortage changed that. They probably planned GT7 as a PS5 only game to help move more systems but know with the ps5 being in short supply for awhile they decided to go ahead and put it on the ps4 since it being ps5 only would not have made a difference in moving consoles.
Imran just said there were secretly cross gen games that just recently drop there last gen version but those game want take full advantage of next gen features because if you start as a ps4 game dropping that version doesn't change it started as a ps4 game.
It's not enough that I can enjoy Horizon on PS5. PS4 owners need to suffer too.
This part had me thinking:
'Hermen: It very much is. You can't build a community of over 110 million PS4 owners and then just walk away from it, right? I think that'd be bad news for fans of PS4, and frankly not very good business.'
This is true, and they didnt with Sack Boy, Miles, The Show. Has there been any outpouring of complaints from PS4 users feeling left behind? I dont get that impression, buy once again forum talk doesnt reflect the real world. I also think almost everyone assumed Factions was also gonna be cross gen.
God of War was always a maybe....but GT7?
'Hermen: It very much is. You can't build a community of over 110 million PS4 owners and then just walk away from it, right? I think that'd be bad news for fans of PS4, and frankly not very good business.'
This is true, and they didnt with Sack Boy, Miles, The Show. Has there been any outpouring of complaints from PS4 users feeling left behind? I dont get that impression, buy once again forum talk doesnt reflect the real world. I also think almost everyone assumed Factions was also gonna be cross gen.
God of War was always a maybe....but GT7?
The ratio between PS4-PS3 was 24-1 when MGSV released almost 2 years after the PS4s release. The majority of the PS4 user base that buys games - especially at full price - are the ones that quickly transition to the next generation. doing some quick maths, offsetting the PS3vsPS4 user base and the increased sales of PS5vsPS4 a probable ratio in summer 2022, the ratio would end up similar at 20-1. Does a increased sales figure by 5% make sense business wise compared to the amount of work needed to get a PS4 version running acceptably? I would say no, but Sony beg to differ apparently
Reminds me of when Square Enix said Fabula Nova Crystallis was to be a series with no ports or sequels and then FF13 happened. Plans change, especially in the current environment.
Did he say that? I thought he just said that you don't have to take advantage of its specialized hardware. Which, of course, Sony devs would want to. I would say it's very obvious that GoW, HFW, and GT7 have had a lot of work to ensure that the PS4 version is optimized to run okay, and that PS5 is improved enough from the original state of their engines to impress people. And keeping up with those optimizations and improvements as they continue to build the game out.
It is absolutely a charitable read of a company that has constantly struggled to label its trailers properly for years.
I think that's what they would have done with old Konami that would have likely been itching to make it like S-E with FF7.
But current Konami isn't that anymore and hasn't made or produced such a huge game project like that in ages since mostly pulling out of gaming, so specifically for Metal Gear Solid I could see Sony giving the extra push since it's so valuable to them, since if they're ever going to do it now is the time when the nostalgia is getting stronger and before those us who grew up with it are too old.
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Good point, but at that point the criticism would change to "PS5 does not deliver on the promise of new game design" since the map design would still have been held back by the loading shortcomings of PS4. So, while I agree to the premise of your argument, I think it is not just graphics many of us are arguing for.
Edit: Flying mounts in Horizon will always be my dream... lol
This constantly shifting momentum you're talking about frankly doesn't exist at all. It's really just a made up thing in the minds of people who might've spent a bit too much time on video game forums.
Not counting the fanatics, people just don't really care too much if Gow is crossgen, whether trailers are released constantly to keep the "momentum" or if Deathloop is the only exclusive for fall. There will be games to play later in the year either way.
These things will not instantly change their minds about getting a PS5, because there sure as hell doesn't exist a PS5 sales momentum that resets monthly and is only gained back with a good trailer or news about next-gen only exclusives. Most people who play games don't even follow these news, like at all.
Yeah I do.
The PS5 currently I guess is like the new 3DS. Buying one means you get to play PS4 games but better and then on top of that you have titles that are only on that system. Not alot but they exist. If one already has a PS4 then they can wait unless the really want to play R&C which I would but then I actually have a PS5.
things would be very different if Sony went the other way around and just made a bunch of exclusives for their expensive, hard to find new console in the middle of a pandemic that's cost a lot of people lives and spending money
?
Were you absent for this threads phase where folks were trying to convince one another that a PC version of Death Stranding didn't exist?
Sony's labels and marketing has always had the "benefit" of having their cake and eating it too.
I see them making mistake but struggled i just don't see it when i look at things over all.
I had no idea the PS5 exclusives just up and vanished. Brb....gonna check to see if I still have Returnal, Destruction All Stars, Demon's Souls and Astro.
Remind me not to buy Rift Apart too, thanks. As of right now only GT7 seems wild, based on the show last year.
If thats the case.... 🤷♂️
If there ever was a series that could benefit from the SSD upgrade it's God of War with its no-cut camera.
Disappointing news. I really need some hype video game events soon. News from Sony has been mostly full of bummers for quite a while now.
Disappointing news. I really need some hype video game events soon. News from Sony has been mostly full of bummers for quite a while now.
People still trying this angle I see. People actually acting like they wait to a month or fews days before relapse when it dont come most likely a year form now its so silly.
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I would say I need some hype video game events too, but then I think about the fact that R&C Rift Apart comes out and 9 days and I think, "nah, I'll be okay."
The same .
I piss at the cross gen stuff but then when i look what happen this year i just happy i got games to play .
I hope this doesn't come across disrespectful to anyone hit hard by the pandemic, but a lot of people who don't work in hospitality and retail actually saw their expendable income increase during the pandemic due to the push towards working from home and the lack of places to spend money. It's partially why we're seeing such a record year for the gaming industry (and such a crazy launch for the new consoles), there's a lot more lower / middle income earners with a lot of extra spending money with not much else to spend it on.
Jesus Christ, are you guys ever NOT CONCERNED about something?
So much naivete and ignorance about how game development works...
With that said, cross gen development absolutely has some kind of affect on games being developed with two platforms of varying capabilities. The extent of that affect depends on the scope and design goals of the project, however. Some game design can be very scalable (ie, a Miles Morales or Horizon: Forbidden West), and some game design isn't (ie, Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart; a game designed around being able to traverse dimensions, physical space in mere seconds).
We're still so early in the generation, that developers haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what the PS5 can do, and they won't be truly exploiting the hardware for all its worth for a few years still. Kind of like every other console generation that has come before it...
I'm not even a teensy bit surprised that GoW is coming to the PS4 as well. It makes so much sense, from both a business perspective, as well as a development perspective. Much like Horizon and MM, it no doubt started development on the PS4. Meaning, it's design was already built around the capabilities of the PS4. With the key difference being that Santa Monica Studios no doubt learned a shit ton while developing GoW 2018 that they are applying to the new game. Development tools mature with each project (even within the same hardware life cycle), as do developer skills. They learn how to optimize pipelines (memory footprints, loading, graphics optimizations, and whole bunch of other things with their engines too numerous to even list). An example would be Uncharted: Drake's Fortune to Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception. Same hardware, but Naughty Dog refined and optimized their development tools and pipelines in between those games. And I'm not just talking about the graphics, which is the obvious and most easily noticeable take away.
Everything from their rendering systems, physics, asset streaming, and overall codebase was refined and improved during that time, because game development isn't static. They're always growing, learning, improving, and applying what the previous project taught them to the next one.
But back to my point. God of War Ragnarok (or whatever it's going to be called), was developed with the knowledge and experience gained while developing GoW 2018. It more than likely started development on the PS4, and is building off of what was already established on the PS4. Even if it didn't start development on the PS4, it's still a project following the design ethos and systems established in the 2018 game. Hell, Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart, is still a game designed around core gameplay systems established in the PS2 era, with the major difference being in that Insomniac is leveraging the SSD and other PS5 bells and whistles to add a single new major feature to the R&C formula (dimension hopping). That's not a dig or negative at Insomniac or R&C, I'm just saying that Rift Apart is an iterative step for R&C on the game design front. Insomniac knows that series like the back of their hand, and pushing too far in any direction would result in the game not really feeling like R&C. God of War 2018 wasn't as huge of a departure from the previous GoW's in terms of feel and design, and was also an iterative step (new camera perspective, but the combo based action was still very much God of War). Santa Monica didn't build the engine for 2018 to just scrap it and start from scratch on the PS5. They're going to continue to make iterative improvements on what they've established, and leverage any benefits of the PS5 hardware as it makes sense.
Graphical improvements are the low hanging fruit of a new console generation, and they're the "easiest" to get a handle on when moving on to new hardware. But the real design shifts are still a few years out. Faster load times is seriously just scratching the surface, and Sony's studios are no doubt deep in "discovery mode" when it comes to developing for the PS5, and for games releasing in 2021 and 2022, they aren't going to be moving too far out of what has been established over this past console generation. That's just...not how this works. How any of this works...
God of War Ragnarok is going to blow people away, much like Horizon and Ratchet. Hell, all people can talk about is how gorgeous Rift Apart and Forbidden West are, and nary a peep is really being spoken about any paradigm shifting game design changes. Because we haven't gotten there yet, and we're still a few years out from that anyway, because IT TAKES TIME to rework generations of game design teaching and processes. Like, we've been trained to think of game design in a certain way, because up until recently, the tools at our disposal were made with that mentality in mind. Now we have access to tools that will, eventually, change the way we approach game design. We just aren't there yet, folks.
So we're gonna get prettier and faster loading versions of existing game design tenets. Then, over time, those game design tenets will shift, and start to filter out to the industry at large. And even still, we will have games that are just familiar concepts we've gotten for years, because not every game needs to reinvent how things are done, when how things are done works for that particular game/genre.
It's baby steps. I think about iterative design, and a game like No Man's Sky comes to mind. 10 or so years ago, the idea of flying a spacecraft from a planet's surface, breaking through its atmosphere into outer space, then flying through space to another planet, and flying down to that planet's surface, all in real time, with no loading screens, with each planet being procedurally generated, would have been an insane thought! On the surface, it doesn't seem like a big deal, but it's a major step in design philosophy, in my opinion. But I never see anyone gushing about that when talking about NMS. As impressive as that is, it's still an iterative step. It's still just scratching the surface of what that new tool has the potential to do.
I'm not even a little bit concerned about these cross-gen games. I'm gonna sit back and trust that these developers with decades of experience under their belts know what they're doing, have a clear idea of what they want their game to be, and have the knowledge and knowhow to execute on their vision and design goals. It's not like Guerrilla or Santa Monica will suddenly forget how to program for the PS4 because they also have the more powerful PS5 dev kits to work with. That the PS4 versions are somehow going to be unoptimized messes, despite the engines designed for their games being created and optimized on the PS4. Or even that the PS5 versions will somehow be lesser projects because their origin started on older hardware.
So much naivete and ignorance about how game development works...
With that said, cross gen development absolutely has some kind of affect on games being developed with two platforms of varying capabilities. The extent of that affect depends on the scope and design goals of the project, however. Some game design can be very scalable (ie, a Miles Morales or Horizon: Forbidden West), and some game design isn't (ie, Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart; a game designed around being able to traverse dimensions, physical space in mere seconds).
We're still so early in the generation, that developers haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what the PS5 can do, and they won't be truly exploiting the hardware for all its worth for a few years still. Kind of like every other console generation that has come before it...
I'm not even a teensy bit surprised that GoW is coming to the PS4 as well. It makes so much sense, from both a business perspective, as well as a development perspective. Much like Horizon and MM, it no doubt started development on the PS4. Meaning, it's design was already built around the capabilities of the PS4. With the key difference being that Santa Monica Studios no doubt learned a shit ton while developing GoW 2018 that they are applying to the new game. Development tools mature with each project (even within the same hardware life cycle), as do developer skills. They learn how to optimize pipelines (memory footprints, loading, graphics optimizations, and whole bunch of other things with their engines too numerous to even list). An example would be Uncharted: Drake's Fortune to Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception. Same hardware, but Naughty Dog refined and optimized their development tools and pipelines in between those games. And I'm not just talking about the graphics, which is the obvious and most easily noticeable take away.
Everything from their rendering systems, physics, asset streaming, and overall codebase was refined and improved during that time, because game development isn't static. They're always growing, learning, improving, and applying what the previous project taught them to the next one.
But back to my point. God of War Ragnarok (or whatever it's going to be called), was developed with the knowledge and experience gained while developing GoW 2018. It more than likely started development on the PS4, and is building off of what was already established on the PS4. Even if it didn't start development on the PS4, it's still a project following the design ethos and systems established in the 2018 game. Hell, Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart, is still a game designed around core gameplay systems established in the PS2 era, with the major difference being in that Insomniac is leveraging the SSD and other PS5 bells and whistles to add a single new major feature to the R&C formula (dimension hopping). That's not a dig or negative at Insomniac or R&C, I'm just saying that Rift Apart is an iterative step for R&C on the game design front. Insomniac knows that series like the back of their hand, and pushing too far in any direction would result in the game not really feeling like R&C. God of War 2018 wasn't as huge of a departure from the previous GoW's in terms of feel and design, and was also an iterative step (new camera perspective, but the combo based action was still very much God of War). Santa Monica didn't build the engine for 2018 to just scrap it and start from scratch on the PS5. They're going to continue to make iterative improvements on what they've established, and leverage any benefits of the PS5 hardware as it makes sense.
Graphical improvements are the low hanging fruit of a new console generation, and they're the "easiest" to get a handle on when moving on to new hardware. But the real design shifts are still a few years out. Faster load times is seriously just scratching the surface, and Sony's studios are no doubt deep in "discovery mode" when it comes to developing for the PS5, and for games releasing in 2021 and 2022, they aren't going to be moving too far out of what has been established over this past console generation. That's just...not how this works. How any of this works...
God of War Ragnarok is going to blow people away, much like Horizon and Ratchet. Hell, all people can talk about is how gorgeous Rift Apart and Forbidden West are, and nary a peep is really being spoken about any paradigm shifting game design changes. Because we haven't gotten there yet, and we're still a few years out from that anyway, because IT TAKES TIME to rework generations of game design teaching and processes. Like, we've been trained to think of game design in a certain way, because up until recently, the tools at our disposal were made with that mentality in mind. Now we have access to tools that will, eventually, change the way we approach game design. We just aren't there yet, folks.
So we're gonna get prettier and faster loading versions of existing game design tenets. Then, over time, those game design tenets will shift, and start to filter out to the industry at large. And even still, we will have games that are just familiar concepts we've gotten for years, because not every game needs to reinvent how things are done, when how things are done works for that particular game/genre.
It's baby steps. I think about iterative design, and a game like No Man's Sky comes to mind. 10 or so years ago, the idea of flying a spacecraft from a planet's surface, breaking through its atmosphere into outer space, then flying through space to another planet, and flying down to that planet's surface, all in real time, with no loading screens, with each planet being procedurally generated, would have been an insane thought! On the surface, it doesn't seem like a big deal, but it's a major step in design philosophy, in my opinion. But I never see anyone gushing about that when talking about NMS. As impressive as that is, it's still an iterative step. It's still just scratching the surface of what that new tool has the potential to do.
I'm not even a little bit concerned about these cross-gen games. I'm gonna sit back and trust that these developers with decades of experience under their belts know what they're doing, have a clear idea of what they want their game to be, and have the knowledge and knowhow to execute on their vision and design goals. It's not like Guerrilla or Santa Monica will suddenly forget how to program for the PS4 because they also have the more powerful PS5 dev kits to work with. That the PS4 versions are somehow going to be unoptimized messes, despite the engines designed for their games being created and optimized on the PS4. Or even that the PS5 versions will somehow be lesser projects because their origin started on older hardware.
Because there's money to be made out of the Metal Gear license via remakes. Sony funds the development and marketing but gets the exclusivity and most of the revenue, while Konami is in because it's a low risk venture for them and they get a cut out of each copy sold.
But why Sony wou- how long has it been since they released a game that appealed to you? There you got the answer as to why you're not understanding the moves of today's Sony, 'cause it's been a while since they have stopped doing things the way you'd like them to.
I'm not really referring to the cross-gen stuff, I'm referring to releases. I don't think they do this press today, and announced these delays and games being cross-gen and NOT put out a summer show.
Yeah pretty much. This pretty much goes back to the same argument that MS made months ago. Scalability.
And I was arguing way back when MS had their strategy that there are limits to it. Which is true however,
Early gen you are def not using advanced feature sets on the hardware. Everything is very much still old gen design philosophy with light experiments on new feature sets like Ray tracing etc.
Also Sony seems very okay with games having as low as 720P resolution + some level of reconstruction to hit the older hardware.
I mean this is no different from PC development with lower targets.
Again they will abandon the PS4. It's just to me that with alllll the financial factors In place they would kill themselves financially or under perform a lot without the PS5 install based being at least half of PS4. Which right now is prob by 2023.
I mean... Their release schedule is fine? Ratchet and Intergrade this month, Endwalker, Deathloop, and likely Horizon in the Fall-Holiday range, Forspoken early 2021. What's wrong with it?
This can't be a real post.
Imagine having to discuss this until August or September
At least we will have the Square conference.
At least we will have the Square conference.
It's VERY cheeky when Microsoft 1st Party line up for launch and year 1 is what it is.
does ssx still post here? if so, thoughts on gt7 being cross-gen?
i wonder what this means for the ps5 version. iirc, kaz alluded to day/night transitions being left out of sport because it would impact the frame rate.
is the ps5 version of a game not supposed to be identical to the ps4-counterpart in terms of feature set? if so, that would mean that the ps5 version is going to be held back because of the ps4 version.
i really hope that isn't the case.
i wonder what this means for the ps5 version. iirc, kaz alluded to day/night transitions being left out of sport because it would impact the frame rate.
is the ps5 version of a game not supposed to be identical to the ps4-counterpart in terms of feature set? if so, that would mean that the ps5 version is going to be held back because of the ps4 version.
i really hope that isn't the case.
Xbox Series X sales are as much as playstation? Didn't know.
Fair enough. As an early adopter it would be quite the slap in the face if ps5 exclusives launched in the next year or two. I would have rather bought a new gfx card.
They will probably start to release their games on PC on day 1 as well, in the future. "X game sold really well on PC, and we can't leave that community behind"
Again. Sony could easily just sign a timed exclusivity check and get all of that with significantly less risk and personal investment in the project.
MGS is dead. It will never be truly relevant ever again. There is zero point in Sony putting a ton of effort into trying to resurrect a corpse that'll just fall apart again as soon as a stray raindrop hits it. If all that matters to them is "the money", just give Konami a check and let them do what they have already done in the past.
I'm having some trouble reading your post. Are implying that they could have had a PS4 version but only decided on releasing it after some further analysis?
From my perspective there are three alternatives:
1) there was always going to be a PS4 version.
They either outright lied or they made a mistake they didn't bother correcting until now, which is the same thing from a practical standpoint.
2) they decided to make a PS4 version recently after some deliberation.
Covid is screwing dev times enough as it is for one platform, so starting to port down a game is going to lead to an even higher dev time. So are they delaying the PS5 version to also work on the PS4 one?
Think about it in this way: the PS5 is breaking sales records. Miles Morales has such a big advantage in favor of the PS5 already and the split will only increase as more people get one. So why would they decide to start a PS4 port that is going to put more pressure and workload on the team during a pandemic and delay the best selling version of the game (unless they work on and release the PS4 version later)?
3) they were working on a PS4 version of the game but were only going to release it if the PS5 wasn't selling as they hoped.
So now we're in a (hypothetical) scenario where the PS5 version is being affected by the PS4 version being developed simultaneously, but Sony would hide the PS4 version if the PS5 was selling enough. Basically it would be a cross-gen game, but we wouldn't know about it so it's okay?
If you're developing the game for PS4 just say it. Don't "exclusive to PS5" for a whole year and then say "actually no" so casually 6 months after releasing your new console. They didn't even give people the courtesy of an outright announcement of a PS4 version. Hermen was just listing of cross-gen games as if we already knew about it.
As someone who knows zero about game development, this is really interesting insight. Thank you.
"And if PS4 owners want to play that game, then they can. If they want to go on and play the PS5 version, that game will be there for them."
Wait so it will be free to upgrade? Will both versions be $70? They charged 70 for the PS5 version of MLB The Show and 60 for the PS4 version and you had to pay like 85 for the bundle, right? If the prices are different why wouldn't everyone just buy the PS4 version? They charged the same price for MM ($50).
Wait so it will be free to upgrade? Will both versions be $70? They charged 70 for the PS5 version of MLB The Show and 60 for the PS4 version and you had to pay like 85 for the bundle, right? If the prices are different why wouldn't everyone just buy the PS4 version? They charged the same price for MM ($50).
Yep. And you actually work in this industry you get it. Lol. This is pretty much my perspective now on it.
It is kind of funny that Sony would choose to drop this news and drum up negativity on social media right before E3, when Microsoft and Nintendo are going to be putting their best foot forward. I mean.. I'm sure they have a plan on how to market themselves through E3 season. But they could have announced cross gen plans anytime in the past 6 months.
Cross gen is kind of whatever to me though. Miles still felt next gen to me. Horizon blew me away a week ago. Im sure God of War will too.
Cross gen is kind of whatever to me though. Miles still felt next gen to me. Horizon blew me away a week ago. Im sure God of War will too.
Like many scenarios (e.g. Sony calling Nioh an exclusive despite a timed PC version later), many folks presented arguments based on the "misleading/deceptive" labels that Sony used to suggest that Death Stranding was PS4 only.
In fact, I was even called out for "ruining the thread" for pointing out that a PC version was coming. PC version was announced, folks clapped their hands and moved on like nothing happened and that Sony's marketing wasn't and isn't the culprit for many of the issues, including today's.
You come to the right place.
Let me talk to you about an awesome game coming out next week called Guilty Gear: Strive
MS and Sony have been moving away from hardware exclusive for a while .
Sony just taking longer since they making more cash this way for now .
In next 10 years a PS system or even gaming hardware will just be option if you want to play Sony games.
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