Yes I also think it's easy to not give a damn about things that don't affect me personally. Weird.
Please stop referring to women as "females" (READ OP)
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It absolutely was a trash post with no critical thought put into it... it's a borderline meme. But that doesn't invalidate my last post pointing out the hypocrisy. Talking in absolutes like that and speaking for entire groups of people is a huge problem with online discourse.
If someone is referring to men as males in the same sentence as females, then why would you get offended? Just to be outraged?
It’s a adjective and noun shouldn’t define language because how we speak is ever evolving. We make up words and terms all the time and just like the word female it goes beyond the definition.
I can’t say I find it offensive because I get called the n word all day but not in a disrespectful way.
I can’t say I find it offensive because I get called the n word all day but not in a disrespectful way.
I did, thanks. The OP is in direct accordance to what i posted. Did you notice that Persephone went on to request the people who say this kind of bs to think about why they use this language? This suggests that she is aware people can say this with no regard for the meaning of using language like this, or without the personal intent to reinforce sexism by being unaware that this language does exactly that (or unwilling to consider this to be the case).
You're suggesting that a man saying "that female over there" is a thing that actually happens in society?
This is a weird thing, because 'to mate', as in your 'mate' certainly is different, but I have absolutely referred to platonic friends of the opposite sex as mates. If I heard someone else do it, I wouldn't presume they meant a romantic relationship by default.
It's a bit like partner actually, it's strange that we use that word to mean your romantic partner and business colleague.
So first of all, you are thinking of biological sex, not gender.
More importantly though, it doesn’t seem like you’re differentiating between the use of the word as an adjective vs a noun, as outlined in the first post.
You are 100% correct, specifically if you are discussing an adult. However if you are talking about both an adult and a child then just using woman would be wrong because by definition the child is not a woman and the adult is not a girl.
PSA: Women don't need surveys or polls to validate our feelings and thoughts. Even if we had em you guys would cherry pick the fuck out of it and lecture us about sample sizes and shit
Oops, you're right, I conflated grammar and style. I need to stop that, I know I've done it here before in a different thread and it's a dumb mistake to make :(
Indeed. You're not David Attenborough narrating about animals for a nature documentary.
It's fair enough if based on language differences you weren't aware of this. Heck, I wasn't consciously aware of this either and English has been my native language since I was like 7. But anyone who insists on ignoring the reasons posited in this thread for why it's insulting and degrading to refer to women as "females" given the connotation of talking about animals is very likely a piece of shit and not worth engaging with.
It's fair enough if based on language differences you weren't aware of this. Heck, I wasn't consciously aware of this either and English has been my native language since I was like 7. But anyone who insists on ignoring the reasons posited in this thread for why it's insulting and degrading to refer to women as "females" given the connotation of talking about animals is very likely a piece of shit and not worth engaging with.
Ladies or gals is fine. Weird that you prioritize making sure you account for all ages instead of their humanity.
...is it though? Like, for whom? If we're talking about broad structural issues like sexism and patriarchal oppression, why exactly is it a huge problem to indeed point to the negative concerns of those being oppressed – even if other people apparently aren't exposed to or aren't actively conscious about said oppression? If a woman came into this thread and said "hey I know other women here have an issue with this but it never bothered me", (which more or less happened once) that's fine but first of all no one even bothered to criticize her particular experience (why would they?) and more importantly what exactly is there to discuss there? Like, are we supposed to extrapolate that systemic oppression isn't a thing when 10+ people are saying they can relate to this issue and 1 is saying they can't? Is you goal to battle oppression and lift these fucking tired chains off our societies or to engage in finger-wagging staunch neutrality just for the sake of... what exactly? I'm sorry if I'm coming across a bit combative because I'm sure your intentions in these posts are decent but I'm just honestly confused over what your goal is with pointing out this minor and honestly more or less irrelevant "hypocrisy"?
Lmao yes. I don't live in the US so I can't say what it sounds like on the street and in homes, but in many casual conversations in video recordings, podcasts and obviously forum posts that is definitely a thing that happens. Hence this thread existing. Are you suggesting that it doesn't?
"People"
"Folks"
That's sadly a large portion of this thread, especially before being reopened unfortunately.
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This is something that has annoyed me and something I've seen used on this very forum by many that it's hard to understand why so many can't understand why this upsets so many of us.
Saying "female doctor", or like the op has specified isn't the problem, the problem is so many people seem to use "the female" to refer to women when simply using the word woman/women would be much more natural and not feel so degrading and dehumanizing ESPECIALLY when in many cases it's only used when referring to women, i.e Men and females.
That's another good point. I seriously can't remember ever hearing a dude use female(s) in that context in person, from both friends and strangers. It sounds like what a fedora-rockin' alt-right neckbeard would say. Come to think of it, I don't remember ever seeing a fedora in person, either lol.... the black fedora, trenchcoat, everything. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they're not exactly social butterflies.
I dunno if I would, it depends on context and speaker. But I think that as the hypothetically affected party, my feelings about it should carry more weight than people who are entirely unaffected.
Just a quick reminder that it costs us absolutely nothing to use the word women instead of females.
If you have a room filled with 10 females (human beings in this case) and 5 of them are adults while the other 5 are children you can collectively call them all ladies or gals. However, if you call them collectively women or girls you would be wrong. It's not "prioritizing". I'm just trying to make sure you are knowledgable.
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Yeah, that’s been about the only time I’ve ever heard the word used the way the OP is describing. Guys who, in any other era, would be using some other to belittle or dehumanize women. “Female” just happens to be the one that’s popular right now, but it could very easily be swapped out for any number of other terms to the same effect.
EDIT: I should preface this by saying I spend a lot of time with groups that screen cap and mock incel forums, so I may just automatically associate people using the word “female” this way with awful people as a side effect of that...
...I’m genuinely baffled by this one. It really sounds like you’re grasping at straws to try and find some way to make something that’s not offensive in the least offensive.
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Lmao what are you even talking about? You seem really desperate to spin this whichever way possible. To what end?
So essentially you haven't seen or heard these things and you and the other poster find it appropriate to bring it up in this thread even though the issue certainly doesn't relate directly to anything you even could experience... when we have plenty of women in here sharing their actual experiences and concerns over this issue. How do you think that comes across? Btw, there are plenty of men who don't fit your proposed stereotype who do this. I've heard it from very socially well-adjusted men all over the place and I bet almost none of them are even aware of what they are doing. That is why it's important to FUCKING LISTEN TO WOMEN ZZZZZZZZZ it's not that hard, really. Trying to brush this off as some niche thing that only happens in the basements of neckbeards is incredibly disingenuous.
By the way the post you quoted wasn't a good point for several reasons. See one of my earlier replies to it for further clarification.
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I'm a little lost. Are you talking about how the word is used? I think I get what your saying that the word isn't bad but is used in a way to put women below men in some ways.
There have been other posts in the thread which have verged on a similar claim (but this is much more explicit) but this sounds like it comes from a neuroprivilleged position. There are neurodivergent conditions where individuals may converse in an inappropriately formal or pedantic manner (e.g. Asperger's Syndrome), and it's an unfairly reductionistic viewpoint to totally erase or diminish that there are other aspects which may cause such a 'verbal tic' (i.e. speaking or conversing in a formal manner) beyond 'conciously or unconsciously seek[ing] to set up a dynamic that reduces women to things'.
When there is the context of an individual using "men/a man" while simultaneously using "females/a female" I certainly agree that it can be quite a dehumanising form of speech which should certainly be avoided, but in the context of somebody who is simultaneously using "males/a male" it may be in the context of an atypical pattern of speech.
because in spanish the word "hembra" is horrible and it is almost never used for women (its reserved for animals). Funny (or worryng) gringos dont have this difference in the language. Maybe language is important, but spanish/latin culture is machista (also another word that doesnt exist in english). Words dont matter as much as some people believe.
What? Like male and female is now wrong, I use it all the time, I have been taught that. I don't see what dehumanisation does it do. And that mod post does not clarify shit for me. What does "a" do, to make it different? I many times do a typo of inserting "the" or "a" because I am an idiot and also non-native English speaker. My anxiety (having GAD) writing anything on the internet in English rises every day. I probably add a flag on my forehead, to make it clear, that I simply do honest mistakes.
I am with you on this, I don't understand and I have so-so English and this is, I don't know what is wrong with this : (
On the other hand what is wrong with this? That's seems absolutely normal...
This seems at best to reflect a widespread confusion between sex and gender: if you want to refer to a person's sex, and that person is female, then 'female' is correct; if you want to refer to their gender, and they are a woman, then 'woman' is correct. I can't think of many social situations where I would need to emphasize the fact that someone is biologically female (as opposed to a woman). If someone understands the distinction, and continues using 'female' to describe women, it seems likely they are trying to make some kind of point.
I was joking, but I would think that most people generally assume mate to refer to men.
Be reasonable. Referring to young girls as women is fine. Referring to adult women as girls is demeaning.
When you have a choice between insulting no one and insulting half of the people in the room, choose the reasonable option. None of the young girls are going to be mad that you referred to them as women. That’s not a real thing.
Because while "female" is a descriptor, "woman" is a more accurate descriptor. "Female" is an attribute of something. You wouldn't say "that's a group of female cattle," you would call them "cows" because that is the more natural way of speaking. You wouldn't call a group of cows "a group of females."
"Female" is sometimes used by people--sexless virgins specifically--to dehumanize women by identifying them solely by their biological sex.
I know generalizing an entire sex/gender is easy, but yes, there are men outside of your group of friends who take offense to being called male.
I don't think you can replace "women" with "female" in a lot of instances without it sounding unnatural. Sure, one may be technically correct in using "female" instead of "woman," it sounds... "off,' and yes, it can carry very specific connotations.
A good way to avoid anxiety in terms of expressing yourself in a foreign language (something I'm doing right now) is to listen to what native speakers are telling you about it and you know... learning. No one here is talking about honest mistakes, and if someone calls you out for using dehumanizing language and you respond with "oh sorry, I'm not a native speaker and didn't realize I was doing that" I am 150,000,000% sure that their response would be "oh ok, no problem!". As in that happened to me a few years back. I listened, learned and moved on with my life as a bit less of a shitbag human. It's really not that hard, I promise.
As in "I'm female"? Sure.
As in "Gosh, I'm such a female right now!" Uhhh... really?
This is the communication equivalent of not understanding why the skidmarks on your underwear preclude you from being called an adult
I don't think anyone that actually understands social interaction to a sufficiently mature degree would ever struggle with this concept
I don't think anyone that actually understands social interaction to a sufficiently mature degree would ever struggle with this concept
Yes this is a perfectly valid English phrase, and not at all a struggle to get out.
Key tip to using ‘females’ in a sentence. If it sounds like something from a creepy incel manifesto, don’t do it.
Example of what people are talking about: ‘I don’t think females should be allowed to xxx’
For racist variation: ‘I don’t think blacks should be allowed to xxx’
For homophobic variation: ‘I don’t think gays should be allowed to xxx’.
It’s defining a group by a trait rather than as people, as something other than and less than the speaker, who is then presumed to be a ‘normal’ person. ‘The exception that proves the rule.’
Yes, when studying animals we might use the scientific language of categorising them- ‘amongst this flock, the females display trait x, the males are smaller/bigger’. However, we’re at a cold distance when describing such groups, and not adding any immediate social, hierarchal subtext because of it.
Example of what people are talking about: ‘I don’t think females should be allowed to xxx’
For racist variation: ‘I don’t think blacks should be allowed to xxx’
For homophobic variation: ‘I don’t think gays should be allowed to xxx’.
It’s defining a group by a trait rather than as people, as something other than and less than the speaker, who is then presumed to be a ‘normal’ person. ‘The exception that proves the rule.’
Yes, when studying animals we might use the scientific language of categorising them- ‘amongst this flock, the females display trait x, the males are smaller/bigger’. However, we’re at a cold distance when describing such groups, and not adding any immediate social, hierarchal subtext because of it.
Or use both.
When are people so pressed for a second that they can't say "Ladies, girls, please follow me..." or whatever.
That's not a reasonable scenario in which to be concerned.
How about not be cringey and say, "They went to the restroom?"
Or
"Some people went to the restroom."
Why even type "group". It shows just how much you want to bend what it is. Like.... wow.
I feel like the "a" gets added depending on the context of the sentence. Often it's used to pad out the sentence for better/worse flow.
eg:
I'm indian vs I'm an indian.
I'm male vs I'm a male.
They're males vs they're all males
It's probably not grammatically correct, but I don't think it's used in a malicious intent most of the time.
eg:
I'm indian vs I'm an indian.
I'm male vs I'm a male.
They're males vs they're all males
It's probably not grammatically correct, but I don't think it's used in a malicious intent most of the time.
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