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Metallia

Member
May 31, 2018
476
Because with that kind of attitude we wouldn't get amazing games. That is why it is an issue. With that kind of attitude games like God of War or Breath of the Wild wouldn't exist because those games would instead be the same old formula.

I would much rather have a Pokemon game that was as fresh and innovative as those examples in their respective series than play the same old "safe" game for the umpteenth time in a row.
I don't have that attitude towards every game and I don't think anyone should. I don't see an issue with appreciating it within certain series though. I think Final Fantasy is interesting because it is so crazy with its changes between major numbered titles, I love Square just completely trying something new each time. I similarly think Pokemon is interesting because it's so focused on delivering a consistent and connected experience. It's AWESOME that Breath of the Wild was a huge shift for the Zelda series and I enjoyed it immensely. However I also think it's awesome that to this day I still have the same Pokemon from my first playthrough of Emerald and can still enjoy them the same way, with a few new mechanics added every new game. No other series does that.

YOU would much rather have a Pokemon game that is fresh and disregards a lot of series standards in the name of innovation and hell, I certainly wouldn't be against that myself, I'd love to see a Pokemon take on series revamping like BotW did. But there's just as much value in going the other way and being safe (especially when one of your draws is extreme long term connectivity). And when people enjoy that, it certainly doesn't need to be gotten rid of in favour of change.

In a perfect world, we'd have both, but there's also only so much that can realistically happen.
 

@dedmunk

Banned
Oct 11, 2018
3,088
You know the fanbase, myself included, are equally vocal about actual flaws of the franchise. We just don't want a genre shift because it's un-necessary and would alienate a large portion of the userbase.

Keep it as an RPG. Just make it better. It doesn't have to be open world to have nice larger 3D environments, with more exploration and mechanics outside of Pokémon battles (which I will admit are still great mechanically and likely the one area that doesn't need a lot of improvement ).
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,115
Keep it as an RPG. Just make it better. It doesn't have to be open world to have nice larger 3D environments, with more exploration and mechanics outside of Pokémon battles (which I will admit are still great mechanically and likely the one area that doesn't need a lot of improvement ).
I think Sword & Shield may surprise us in terms of environments
 

diakyu

Member
Dec 15, 2018
17,519
I do think battles in the overworld is coming either this Pokemon gen after sword and shield or soon after. Sword and shield already has a specific scene for each area.
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,580
We just don't want a genre shift because it's un-necessary and would alienate a large portion of the userbase.

Nobody has argued for that though. You are mischaracterising any kind of fundamental change to the game or even the structure and style of the game as a "genre shift". Nobody has asked for it to be a first person shooter. They want it to be a larger scope game, with better story, with non-linear gameplay, with challenge, with surprise - a game with the aspiration of anything other than the minimum amount of change they can get away with which. None of that changes the genre.

RE2 - a *remake* of the original has more innovation compared to the original than Pokemon has in 20 years. It's still the same genre.
 

greenwell

Member
Jan 12, 2018
461
Pokemon can use some changes and some improvements (game balancing, POST GAME, following pokemon, etc) but I can't agree with the notion of not open-world = wasted potential. The Pokemon formula works. How do you think it became the biggest media IP franchise? And some of the suggestions in this thread I feel go against the nature of the series like removing Pokemon and going back to Gen 1 sounds, uh, terrible. Fans were complaining about Lets Go having Gen 1 only when it's a remake of Yellow so having a new mainline game without new Pokemon is like ridiculous.
So yeah, changes would be welcomed but Pokemon should keep its core of being a turn-based RPG that introduces new Pokemon with each new gen.

Pokémon is the only franchise to survive over 20 years while producing content consistently across different media this whole time and still managing to maintain huge sales every single time. It's why it currently sits at the top of the biggest franchises of any segment of entertainment in the world.
As such, the games are obviously meticulously crafted to keep that machine going, since they are the root of the franchise and what everything else draws from. And they do this on a much stricter time frame than most other games.

People need to understand that Pokemon isn't your Uncharted or your Zelda. It's much bigger than that. To call it wasted potential is to ignore the big picture.
Good post. I also have to agree that Pokemon isn't Zelda. Like from Nintendo's Dec 2018 figures this is the difference between BOTW and Lets Go:
OtIQ4HN.png
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,341
Because with that kind of attitude we wouldn't get amazing games. That is why it is an issue. With that kind of attitude games like God of War or Breath of the Wild wouldn't exist because those games would instead be the same old formula.

I would much rather have a Pokemon game that was as fresh and innovative as those examples in their respective series than play the same old "safe" game for the umpteenth time in a row.

Heres the thing: breath of the wild only happened because Zelda games weren't selling well enough for Nintendo, with most of them barring Twilight Princess (not matter how much people want to treat that like a black sheep) and OOT being the only exceptions. The 3d games were at 3-4m roughly, and that wasn't cutting it for games that need 5+ years to develop. Until Pokémon sales collapse, there's no chance of that kind of shakeup happening to Pokémon.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,660
Sorry, but you won't get anything more with Pokemon being an annualized series.

BotW is something you get with 5 years of dev time.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
These armchair developers talks always annoy me because the ones spouting the "lazy devs" rhetoric seem to think that their own idea is so infallible simply for no other reason than it is their idea. That Pokemon would always be a multi-million seller therefore any idea is automatically better than what we have because their idea is infalliable plus pokemon can't fail. It feeds into a loop that gives these people so much baffling cocky pride that they will attack others who just like the games as "mindless sheep". In truth, a lot of these ideas are in no way realistic or sustainable (especially earlier when people talked about how a Pokemon MMO was obviously a good idea simply because the idea sounded appealing without exploring any realities of what such an undertaking would actually take to even work).

And that doesn't even get to the other problem with these armchair developers: that they refuse to see that what they want is not what others want. That's what happens when you have a fanbase in the tens of millions, you get hundreds of different things that they like. I, for instance, love the story of Sun and Moon. This isn't what others want and that's fine. But for these armchair developers, not only are their ideas infallible, they are also the perfect idea an any and all direct counters of that are just fanboys who cannot understand the armchair developer's genius.
 

plateaux

Member
Oct 27, 2017
273
New England
Fully agree. To make matters worse for Nintendo, and to further support your point — every time a new Pokémon game comes out, I want to like it, but I've been disappointed and underwhelmed by each one I have tried.

So I'm a would-be fan who is constantly on the fence, because I can see how good it COULD be, but never delivers on. I imagine there are so many people like myself that Nintendo is missing out on, too.
 

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,546
Final Fantasy is designed to be the experimental JRPG so not really an example. Kingdom Hearts is largely the same game with improvements and QOLs and nobody is really complaining about them, neither Dragon Quest. It seems like lots of people just want something that the franchise was never aiming for and they set themselves for disappointment.

Well, you see, it's interesting that you cite Dragon Quest because it really is similar to Pokemon: it's a hugely popular franchise that has opted to stay true to its roots and are conservative on their design philosophies, from the plot, to gameplay to sound design.

BUT Dragon Quest had a huge leap moment with DQ8, they managed to fully transition to a 3D environment and they adapted every aspect of the game to it, and it ended up being a big success among critics and audience, and it's also the game that brought so many new fans to a very old franchise that was basically niche outside Japan, and it's probably the most popular iteration globally.

Pokemon's transition to 3D has been... I don't even know how to describe it, awkward maybe? XY is regarded by many as the lowest point in the franchise, the battles were great in it, but they ran very poorly, and the overworld looks a weird 2,5D that can't decide which direction it wants to go. The camera is fixed and basically top down all the time, and when you get to Lumiose they kinda give control to the player but not really, and it ended up being the worst example of a camera I have ever seen in a 3D videogame, Mario 64 did better decades before. It all felt like GF didn't want to go 3D but were dragged by rope to do it whining and crying, and delivered that. S/M made small improvements but, again, not really fully implemented 3D and still ran like shit. Now we have SS, and while I'm hyped for it, it doesn't look like it's changing any of that, and I look back at Dragon Quest 8, 10 years ago it did in one game what Pokemon couldn't do in almost generations since 2013, and I wonder wtf is holding GF back. Dragon Quest 11 is a fully realized, gourgeous looking, enormous content-wise game and Pokemon is struggling to meet expectations game after game, unless you have no expectations at all, which seems to be the case for many.

I'm gonna play the game anyway, and I definitely don't agree that it should change radically, let alone become open world, I like DQ because it's the same, and I like Pokemon because it's the same, but boy, I can't be that partial to say that the series isn't stale and that it gets all the effort it deserves, it just doesn't. It's one thing if you're satisfied with the way it is, but when people criticize they have a point. Pokemon is a game that is still fun despite being a underwhelming effort and that's something the fanbase should make peace with.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,115
Nobody has argued for that though. You are mischaracterising any kind of fundamental change to the game or even the structure and style of the game as a "genre shift". Nobody has asked for it to be a first person shooter. They want it to be a larger scope game, with better story, with non-linear gameplay, with challenge, with surprise - a game with the aspiration of anything other than the minimum amount of change they can get away with which. None of that changes the genre.

RE2 - a *remake* of the original has more innovation compared to the original than Pokemon has in 20 years. It's still the same genre.
Many have asked for that. I've seen a lot of people want them to drop the turn-based battles because they're "antiquated" and thus change genre
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,897
The fact that we still don't have a big open world RPG with interactive and destructive environments bothers me. I haven't played a Pokemon game in a long time but that would potentially get me back in.
 

Nitpicker_Red

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,282
Those are comprehensive gameplay ideas:
Consider this: it's an open world, or interconnected semi-open world game. In normal battles you fight one on one, and though the bones of the combat is similar it's more of an ATB style. You're Pokémon has up to four moves, with different moves taking longer to either to execute or a longer cooldown period and each move can be used a limited amount of times either in a single battle or between rest points. You dodge/or block manually to reduce the damage and switch Pokémon on the fly.
I think there's an interesting philosophy attached to developing a pure turn-based games that allows players to require zero hand-eye coordination to make it available to children, the eldery and disabled people. But I cannot prove that this is why Pokémon focuses on pure turn-based systems. (it could just be to be compatible between games)
You can actually see the Pokémon within the world, but sometimes you might have to interact with the environment to find a Pokémon. Maybe it's leaving berries or food on the ground in an area with signs of a Pokémon, maybe it's hitting a tree to see if a Pokémon is in there, you get the point. And like Kingdom Hearts III, you have a camera function in your Pokédex to take pictures of Pokémon ala Pokémon Snap.
Funilly, all those three are mechanics in Pokémon.
  • Leaving Pokéblocks (Gen 3) or Honey in some containers to attract certain Pokémon. But you check the trap later to see if something came.
  • Hitting trees with Headbutt to make Pokémon fall from a tree (Gen 2). Sometimes the Pokémon would start the fight asleep. Hitting rocks also sometimes triggers a fight.
  • Sun and Moon had a camera mode where you could take picture of Pokémon.
The issue I guess is the presentation: all those mechanics are only possible in dedicated spots (well, headbutt-able trees were all over the map), and don't have dedicated animation ("fade to black" or nothing) and so is not seamlessly integrated with the rest of the game and end up not being "memorable", and thus forgotten.

Comparing to Zelda puzzles before BotW: each puzzle element was manually created and did not have any signifiance outside of said puzzle. That lead to many types of torches that using different fire logic. In BotW, they integrated everything into a "chemistry engine". One single fire system controls all the fire puzzles. However in "classic" Pokémon, there is no action component to integrate with those mechanics. As a result it generally doesn't change much to the gameplay that those mechanics happen in a sub-menu rather than directly on the overworld, due to how rigidly it plays. And a sub-menu doesn't have to be animated to convey the action.

That's why Roaming "visible on the map" Pokémon are interesting, since they could integrate with all those points. They make the encounter system more dynamic and more memorable, by forcing Pokémon to appear and thus be animated, even if it doesn't change anything to the actual game mechanic.
"Sweet scent" could even be used to still have quick back-to-back random encounters.

The problem is generating the animation for Pokémon falling from tree, being attracted to a trap, "idling" around, might be what's blocking GameFreak.
By animation I don't mean the 3D rig per-se, but the logic behind a basic AI that would procedurally decide how to position and act based on the size of the Pokémon, its shape (how do you even decide?). Pretty sure they would decide it's not worth the money and just "fade to black", like they did time and times again when any "special" interaction happens in the game so far. Yes, indeed even a big budget doesn't help for problems that scale badly. But I'm not sure they always do the right cost-analysis (Pokémon turning around in Pokémon-amie → fading to black...).


One issue that roaming Pokémon bring is changes to the dynamics of resource-based exploration in the early levels. Tampering with RPG difficulty is a hard subject to study. If you ignore the starters, you could look at how LGPE handled the difficulty curve, while acknowledging how much of an outlier that game is (151 Pokémon, Go influences, no pressure to be compatible with the previous and next entries).

Conditions and elements matter even more, because like Divinity: Original Sin if you are in a water puddle and an electric move is used the damage or chance to paralyze increase. If a fire move is used it creates steam.
I'm fairly certain there was a gen where some attacks would interact with background elements during the combat. (I think it was mostly to obtain some items.) It was limited to certain moves only and I don't think it came back. That's one problem to think of, GameFreak considers that each game should have some "exclusive" mechanics because they still want to sell them long after the next gen is released (I don't think it's a positive).

Some interactions you mention are similar to weather which does have gameplay effect (fire is weaker during rain, thunder never misses under rain, etc.).
It's just... limited to a handful or so of weather and terrain with types, and some attack-attack interactions (defense curl + rollout, dig + earthquake...).
So again, the number of interactions being limited compared to an integrated, dynamic system. Mostly being stat boosts, not explicit, not animated. Making them less remarked despite the mechanics being there.
Similarly, some Pokémon have hidden moves that can be unlocked that serve you outside of battle, such as being able to cut certain obstacles. When you fly, you actually fly the Pokémon. When you surf, you actually surf the Pokémon. The environment and your Pokemon's abilities synergize inside and outside of battle.
I think it's going in this direction in the next five years. At least in LGPE you could ride certain big Pokémon to fly over any obstacle, in the real overworld. (after beating the elite 4)
It's mostly a question of animation, since other non-gameplay modifying "rideable" Pokémon each had their own custom animation in LGPE (not all 150, just the big ones). And a matter of GameFreak allowing "game exclusive" mechanics to actually become staples of the serie...

They have an excuse there, there's no way to automatise that. (But maybe with the advent of content-creation AI... Which still has a long way to go.)
There's puzzles using your Pokemon's abilities, platforming (maybe even with a little bit of The Last Guardian platforming with the aid of a Pokémon). All of the fun exploration and side content you would find in a Breath of the Wild style game, also taking inspiration from other RPG's.
Static vs dynamic world. In BotW when something goes wrong physics-wise you can take damage and die, wiggle around, teleport... I don't think Pokémon overworld would go into that direction.
If Pokémon abilities control progress, better make sure you defined them such as something they can't lose by evolving/getting rid of common attacks (similar to how HMs couldn't be removed unless you went to a specific city).


----

So the main blocks are:
  • new "interaction" mechanics are relegated to their own sub-menu/"fade to black", because they aren't integrated to the rest of the overworld (because they often don't come back), making them less memorable/less presentable.
  • existing interactions during combat (weather, terrain, attacks combos) are limited to a handful of ideas, because they require manual input from development, and are generally ignored by players.
I think it's mainly a presentation (animation, game structure) problem, before becoming a game mechanics one.
 
Last edited:

JustALurker

Member
Feb 12, 2019
1,018
I'm happy with the turn-based gameplay, it's the world design that I'm not happy with (not the art style or visuals but how limited you are in the area you're in).

I haven't played SnS but from the trailer we saw the paths looked like... paths. You're essentially on rails like all the other games prior (in the mine scene you were literally on rails in a linear path).
 

Ravelle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,752

For me it's not even an open world that I want, I'm fine if it's linear if the story and the road to the end is exciting. All I wanted in Pokemon is to have the pokemon not be frozen in their post and jump an inch in to the air and have them make psychical contact with the other pokemon, have them fight in an actual space and not just see the back of their heads.
 

kevinking94

Member
Oct 28, 2017
880
I hav always tried to imagine how a true mainline console pokemon game would look and feel to play, and after playing dragon quest 11 i think that would be a cool kind of "template" to follow
 

Greatest Ever

Banned
Aug 25, 2018
609
These armchair developers talks always annoy me because the ones spouting the "lazy devs" rhetoric seem to think that their own idea is so infallible simply for no other reason than it is their idea. That Pokemon would always be a multi-million seller therefore any idea is automatically better than what we have because their idea is infalliable plus pokemon can't fail. It feeds into a loop that gives these people so much baffling cocky pride that they will attack others who just like the games as "mindless sheep". In truth, a lot of these ideas are in no way realistic or sustainable (especially earlier when people talked about how a Pokemon MMO was obviously a good idea simply because the idea sounded appealing without exploring any realities of what such an undertaking would actually take to even work).

And that doesn't even get to the other problem with these armchair developers: that they refuse to see that what they want is not what others want. That's what happens when you have a fanbase in the tens of millions, you get hundreds of different things that they like. I, for instance, love the story of Sun and Moon. This isn't what others want and that's fine. But for these armchair developers, not only are their ideas infallible, they are also the perfect idea an any and all direct counters of that are just fanboys who cannot understand the armchair developer's genius.
Imagine not reading about legitimate complaints OP has like lack of post game and coming up with this awful post instead.
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,580
User Banned (3 Days): Junior phase account antagonizing other members and ignoring staff post
These armchair developers talks always annoy me because the ones spouting the "lazy devs" rhetoric seem to think that their own idea is so infallible simply for no other reason than it is their idea. That Pokemon would always be a multi-million seller therefore any idea is automatically better than what we have because their idea is infalliable plus pokemon can't fail. It feeds into a loop that gives these people so much baffling cocky pride that they will attack others who just like the games as "mindless sheep". In truth, a lot of these ideas are in no way realistic or sustainable (especially earlier when people talked about how a Pokemon MMO was obviously a good idea simply because the idea sounded appealing without exploring any realities of what such an undertaking would actually take to even work).

And that doesn't even get to the other problem with these armchair developers: that they refuse to see that what they want is not what others want. That's what happens when you have a fanbase in the tens of millions, you get hundreds of different things that they like. I, for instance, love the story of Sun and Moon. This isn't what others want and that's fine. But for these armchair developers, not only are their ideas infallible, they are also the perfect idea an any and all direct counters of that are just fanboys who cannot understand the armchair developer's genius.

It sure is interesting looking at the avatars of the members with these kind of posts in this thread...

Ultimately it is clear there are a very dedicated number of people in this thread with pokemon avatars (one of whom runs the biggest pokemon fan site on the internet) who will defend the games to the death and are so comforted by the current formula and its familiarity, so challenged by the idea of any significant change, that they will not tolerate any consideration of change even when the franchise has ostensibly been the same game for 20 years with minor tweaks/gimmicks, higher number of pokemon and a new facade of whatever lick of paint they theme the environments with.

Pokemon could be so much more. I'm happy for you if you are content for it not to be, as a fan I am not.
 

Timppis

Banned
Apr 27, 2018
2,857
I find the premise of missing potential to be erroneus when the fact is that the IP is one of the biggest in the entire world.

The fact that it has not catered to what OP or other vocal fans want isn't the same as missed potential.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,115
(in the mine scene you were literally on rails in a linear path)
Choosing a mine for your complaint may be a mistake :P Mines aren't dug wide, they're specifically focused

I agree. I hope we see more open. More places like Poni Plains in SMUSUM would be nice. Wider open places (with more to it) and I am fairly certain Sword & Shield will deliver on this
59.jpg


Ultimately it is clear there are a very dedicated number of people in this thread with pokemon avatars (one of whom runs the biggest pokemon fan site on the internet) who will defend the games to the death and are so comforted by the current formula and its familiarity, so challenged by the idea of any significant change, that they will not tolerate any consideration of change even when the franchise has ostensibly been the same game for 20 years with minor tweaks/gimmicks, higher number of pokemon and a new facade of whatever lick of paint they theme the environments with.
Again, I don't defend everything, complain when things are bad, and advocate change and improvements.

However, what I don't advocate are pointless genre changes and complaints about things that have already been implemented.
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,725
Italy
What's wrong with closed spaces? Not everything needs to be massively open and again, we've only seen a small part of the game whereas the overworld map indicates it's wider open than you give it credit for.

You can have open areas without having a massive open world. Yo-kai Watch has fully explorable stand-alone big areas which are amazing to explore. Pokémon doesn't, especially regarding towns.
 

greenwell

Member
Jan 12, 2018
461
Or alternatively, you get into the middle of that, and it's treated as a wild Double Battle with friendly-fire fully on for the AI so the Pidgeotto could still not only have the choice to go after the Caterpie like it technically can in normal double-battles but actively prioritize doing so, and you have to take care of it first and fast if its the Caterpie you want to catch and add to your Dex or Team or whatever. Something like that.
I think SM/USUM has something like that Corsola and Mareanie. Pokemon can call for help and another Pokemon will the join so it'll turn from single to double and sometimes when a Corsola calls for help a Mareanie shows up. But Mareanie eats Corsola so it'll attacking it and you to decide who to battle and stuff. I think that's the way to catch a Mareanie in the wild too.

Here's my viewpoint as a competitive player!

I think Pokemon has two sacred cows: the battle system being turn based, and the game heavily focusing on building a team to execute some sort of strategy. So when people talk about turn based battles being too old and needing to be removed, that feels pretty strange to me. That'd be like saying fighting games are old hat, so Street Figther 6 should be a first person shooter. That'd cause an uproar with Street Fighter fans, and making Pokemon an action RPG would cause similar reactions in the competiitve fanbase. I'd certainly be bummed out at least!

However, funnily enough, I'm personally pretty open to other changes as long as the deep PVP battle system remains intact. So I'd be totally open to say, Gen 9 being open world, or a different approach to story, or maybe all battles in the campagin being doubles, etc. As long as the core of competitive Pokemon is preserved, Gamefreak can go crazy with the changes as far as I'm concerned. Hell, the fact that there's even a competitive community for Let's Go of all things shows how Pokemon inherently encourages competition, even when the developer themselves may not for specfic games!
I really agree as another competitive player. I definitely feel the turn-based battles are integral to Pokemon as a brand and as a series. I don't really think the games have to be open-world to be ""innovative"" but some changes are good. Like a better post-game.
 

Cronogear

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,976
Why is that frustrating? They have an audience of millions of people that want that as a continuing experience, and are delivering it to people successfully. I don't want Pokemon to do something different, I want that continued, connected experience I've had since Game Boy Advance and would have had for even longer if they were able to at the time.

Why does it frustrate you that a company is able to provide that for their audience?

And this isn't even mentioning that they DO make alternate experiences for people who don't want that core experience repeatedly, via spin offs including SRPGs, TCGs, fighting games, sort-of-ARPGs, puzzle games, raising sims etc. etc.
Because the games could be better?

I don't want an "alternate experience." I want to play better Pokemon RPGs. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

There are clear, obvious improvements and modernizations that could be made to the core games that wouldn't change their appeal to the fanbase in the slightest, and could expand their audience to people who have never played a Pokemon RPG before. But they continue to wallow in what the series has done in the past instead of what the series could do.

But you're right, GameFreak and TPC can indeed do what they've always done, appealing to no one but the same fanbase they already have, and make money off of them. And they're very clearly intending to do just that with Sword and Shield.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,115
You can have open areas without having a massive open world. Yo-kai Watch has fully explorable stand-alone big areas which are amazing to explore. Pokémon doesn't, especially regarding towns.
Have you seen how the towns are looking in Sword & Shield? :)

I think SM/USUM has something like that Corsola and Mareanie. Pokemon can call for help and another Pokemon will the join so it'll turn from single to double and sometimes when a Corsola calls for help a Mareanie shows up. But Mareanie eats Corsola so it'll attacking it and you to decide who to battle and stuff. I think that's the way to catch a Mareanie in the wild too.
Correct. It also happened in X & Y when a horde brought say Zangoose and Seviper in. It's a common thing

You end up with scenarios like this
maxresdefault.jpg
 

JustALurker

Member
Feb 12, 2019
1,018
Choosing a mine for your complaint may be a mistake :P Mines aren't dug wide, they're specifically focused

I agree. I hope we see more open. More places like Poni Plains in SMUSUM would be nice. Wider open places (with more to it) and I am fairly certain Sword & Shield will deliver on this
Now that I look back I'm not really sure why I was expecting a wide open area in a mine... But I'd love more open areas in the new game.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,607
It may not "need" it but it would be better with it. The argument it doesn't "need" it is a complete non argument. God of War didn't need a revamp, neither did Zelda. But because of revamps we got absolutely spectacular games that really push the envelope of their respective series and redefined what those series were - to make them something better than they ever were.

If you genuinely love a franchise you would want it to be better, not argue it doesn't "need" to change. The people criticising Pokemon in this thread actually love the games, and want them to be better. They want bigger scope, they want better mechanics, they want storylines and emotional investment. They want Pokemon to try to be the best it can be rather than rest on its laurels because it has the niche pretty much to itself.

I don't know if you didn't know this but Skyward Sword sold less than half of the previous big Zelda making it by far the lowest sales. If it kept up with earlier 3D Zelda's you probably would not have had BOTW.

Being better with a so called revamp is not a guarantee and there's no good reason to change their very successful production pipeline that directly ties into other media by deciding to take twice as long developing games. Everyone wants the games to be better, but that's subjective to the point where some people want completely different things.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,689
The Great Dark Beyond
I sound like a broken record and I apologize for that. But I suggest checking out other monster RPG series. Yokai Watch is on the 3DS and 2 or 3 is good places to start. Monster Hunter Stories is also on the 3DS and on mobile as well. They offer cool changes to gameplay and have great presentation.

I've tried Yokai - it isn't for me. I didn't like it at all. I own MHS and it is in the backlog. One day!

It may not "need" it but it would be better with it. The argument it doesn't "need" it is a complete non argument. God of War didn't need a revamp, neither did Zelda. But because of revamps we got absolutely spectacular games that really push the envelope of their respective series and redefined what those series were - to make them something better than they ever were.

If you genuinely love a franchise you would want it to be better, not argue it doesn't "need" to change. The people criticising Pokemon in this thread actually love the games, and want them to be better. They want bigger scope, they want better mechanics, they want storylines and emotional investment. They want Pokemon to try to be the best it can be rather than rest on its laurels because it has the niche pretty much to itself.

Do not worry, there are millions like you.

I'm not worried. I'm sorry I offended all of your delicate sensibilities with my differing opinion.


b566da1dcfc4b8bf7533bce870b154a0.gif
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,792
Peru
You can have open areas without having a massive open world. Yo-kai Watch has fully explorable stand-alone big areas which are amazing to explore. Pokémon doesn't, especially regarding towns.
This reminds me, I think I'm jumping ship and going Yo-kai Watch this time. First time I'm doing it with a Pokemon-like franchise but YW4 just looks too good and I want to reward it.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
It sure is interesting looking at the avatars of the members with these kind of posts in this thread...

Ultimately it is clear there are a very dedicated number of people in this thread with pokemon avatars (one of whom runs the biggest pokemon fan site on the internet) who will defend the games to the death and are so comforted by the current formula and its familiarity, so challenged by the idea of any significant change, that they will not tolerate any consideration of change even when the franchise has ostensibly been the same game for 20 years with minor tweaks/gimmicks, higher number of pokemon and a new facade of whatever lick of paint they theme the environments with.

Pokemon could be so much more. I'm happy for you if you are content for it not to be, as a fan I am not.

No, you're clearly not happy for me. You are angry with me. You insulted me for the crime of having a Pokemon avatar. You think because I have an issue with those who say "Pokemon fans are sheep" I am just a dumb fanboy who will eat whatever slop Pokemon makes. That i cannot criticize Pokemon. I have a shit ton of complaints about pokemon.

No, this is actually hurting me mentally. I am someone who cannot stand being despised. Am I nothing more than a dumb fanboy for just liking a game as it is? Do I need to change? I'm actually considering hurting myself because I know people are looking at me with disgust and anger.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,341
Dragon Quest already did this YEARS ago.

DRAGON QUEST! "THE" traditional JRPG.

So? Dragon quest isn't Pokémon and the identity of the enemies in DQ has no equivalent major bearing on your battle setup like Pokémon types do. Game freak are aware that the Pokémon battle system is based entirely around being unsure what type your opponent will be using to an extent, be they wild or a trainer. That completely falls apart if you can see them beforehand, which is why I think they were ok with it in let's go, because they just removed the battles entirely, and why they're not visible in sword shield.
 

gunlovefiction

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,399
If it turns out gamefreak has removed Pokemon following you in the overworld I'm gonna freak. They literally have walking AND running animations for every single Pokemon in the game. There is no reason not to include if even Let's Go of all games had it. Would be a complete and utter regression
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,115
Not yet but what has been shown didn't inspire me any confidence.

Also, I find baffling that they ditched visible and following Pokémon on the worldmap. It doesn't make any sense.
At first I'd have been with you, but going through Let's Go again recently and the Pokémon in the overworld piss me off. They get in the way far more than wild encounters ever did and they make the areas look cluttered as hell.

Following I agree. However if it was causing issues with the framerate then I'd rather not have them.

As for the towns, basically aside from the first one, they all seem big and sprawling
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
No this isn't fair! Why am I hated for having a Pokemon avatar! Why am i despised! Why do I feel like I need to hurt myself over this! Why is it a crime for me to enjoy! Why does everyone fucking hate me! I'm sorry for not being white! I'm sorry for not being a Christian or Buddhist! Please don't hate me! Please don't turn me away! I can't take it anymore! My life is falling into pieces, I'm fucking dying and no one knows why, I'm hated for my being a "traitor" to other Asians and now I cannot even have a fucking Pokemon avatar without people looking at me in disgust! Why! Why! Why?!?! Why is everything I do nothing but deserving nothing but hate!
 

ffdgh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,893
The Mushroom Kingdom
If it turns out gamefreak has removed Pokemon following you in the overworld I'm gonna freak. They literally have walking AND running animations for every single Pokemon in the game. There is no reason not to include if even Let's Go of all games had it. Would be a complete and utter regression
Seriously. That was the one bare minimum thing I assumed was safe to hope for in gen 8 and even that's currently iffy.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,792
Peru
So? Dragon quest isn't Pokémon and the identity of the enemies in DQ has no equivalent major bearing on your battle setup like Pokémon types do. Game freak are aware that the Pokémon battle system is based entirely around being unsure what type your opponent will be using to an extent, be they wild or a trainer. That completely falls apart if you can see them beforehand, which is why I think they were ok with it in let's go, because they just removed the battles entirely, and why they're not visible in sword shield.
WHO ever changes their battle set-up to fight wild encounters? For the most part you only need your usual party (who is probably more powerful than the wild Pokemon you face).

And why would I even want to see the Pokemon of another trainer? I was just talking about random encounters.
 

Metallia

Member
May 31, 2018
476
Because the games could be better?

I don't want an "alternate experience." I want to play better Pokemon RPGs. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

There are clear, obvious improvements and modernizations that could be made to the core games that wouldn't change their appeal to the fanbase in the slightest, and could expand their audience to people who have never played a Pokemon RPG before. But they continue to wallow in what the series has done in the past instead of what the series could do.

But you're right, GameFreak and TPC can indeed do what they've always done, appealing to no one but the same fanbase they already have, and make money off of them. And they're very clearly intending to do just that with Sword and Shield.
I'm not here saying Pokemon is perfect, they are flawed games like any other. I would also like them to iron out, improve on or flesh out certain aspects, and experiment within certain aspects too. My posts were purely about the safe vs the overhaul approach, which are extremes. The person I was responding to specifically gave Breath of the Wild as an example.

I'll happily discuss the flaws of Pokemon with people and have done plenty of times, and completely agree I'd like to play BETTER Pokemon RPGs, like I'd like to see anything improve and be better.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,959
Spain
No, this is actually hurting me mentally. I am someone who cannot stand being despised. Am I nothing more than a dumb fanboy for just liking a game as it is? Do I need to change? I'm actually considering hurting myself because I know people are looking at me with disgust and anger.

No one is looking at you with disgust and anger. People who like Pokemon and people who dislike it are very vocal. Some people are throwing accusatory arguments at every user here because they get heated over their opinions. Opinions over a kids game, might I add.


Don't take their comments seriously and if you need someone to talk you can send me a DM. Please be safe.
 

trippyturtle

Member
Mar 11, 2019
70
I suspect Pokemon not taking advantage of further iteration into more online experiences i.e MMO may be Nintendo not being very inept to online gaming in general, rather than Pokemon's ability to function properly in such a format.

Game Freak is also conscious of the fact that Pokemon has children as its target audience, and online communities tend to be primarily adults. I'm sure GF doesn't want kids to play an MMO because of how toxic the communities can be. Definitely not the ideal kid-friendly environment.

I still hope for a single-player Pokemon with a Skyrim-like world. With the Switch being essentially a console-handheld, Pokemon can still be a handheld experience but now with better hardware. Hopefully, it'll come to fruition in my lifetime.
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,725
Italy
At first I'd have been with you, but going through Let's Go again recently and the Pokémon in the overworld piss me off. They get in the way far more than wild encounters ever did and they make the areas look cluttered as hell.

Following I agree. However if it was causing issues with the framerate then I'd rather not have them.

As for the towns, basically aside from the first one, they all seem big and sprawling

Why not giving choice?

It's crazy how people don't want features because they recognize the inability of a developer to introduce modern-features in modern games.

Towns seems pretty standard and way less explorable than those in YW, though, but let's see.