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Murfield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,425
Yeah and there's nothing stopping them from making a separate franchise with the IP that tries to realize that dream, leaving the "meta" in tact for those who enjoy repetition. In fact they've shown they're capable of getting out of their box by making weird spin offs that cater to very small slices of the audience.

I really can't think of a more monied publisher/IP that has continued to not attempt to deliver on what has been widely seen as the ideal vision for over 20 years. Even Square is willing to try and fail answering to the FF7 remake clamor.

I get the idea of wanting the good days to keep rolling on. But you make it sound as if its a weird outside cliche that is pushing for a big update on the formula that does justice to its vision (i.e. a significantly more open pokemon game). From what I have seen it seems the community is split 50/50 on this.

A big part of what makes Pokemon great (for me) is that it is a jrpg where you can go out and find your party through exploration, and have millions of different party combinations. I think there is a lot of things that they can do to make this exploration better, having persistent Pokemon on the map was one, having a more open world is a second.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,925
That always makes me wonder.

Is going to be funny once that people miss the changes Let's Go made.

Features go missing so much that it'll just be "Yet another thing gone".

Series is too clunky at this point. Even with LG, which I feel like part of it was insisting on one hand controls.

Think Pokemon needs more of a MH: World style change, where it's straight up QoL improvements to gut out a lot of the clunky aspects and make it smooth as butter.
 

fleante

Member
Oct 28, 2017
309
I swear to god, every time someone tries to make an honest argument for why the Pokemon main game series should evolve all the crazies come out of the woodwork bandwagoning with their fucking MMO-wishing, open world-demanding bullshit.

I love Pokemon and will probably like Sword and Shield but I would like to see a bigger leap someday, but that seems like a preposterous suggestion now because fucking "Game Freak are lazy" and "What all of us really want is BotW, right guys??" arguments kidnap the conversation.

Here's a pro tip: if you haven't played Pokemon in forever, maybe don't act like you have to support your nonsensical bullshit armchair developer arguments!
 

Saikyo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,331
Does Detective Pikachu on 3DS count?
giphy.gif
 

Ryengeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,639
Georgia, US
As usual, I feel that in these threads, there are always two different types of conversations happening at once.
1) There are those that actually does want some genre-shifting change to Pokemon which is mostly what I see a lot of the consistant defending from familiar faces.
2) And there are the people that just want big aesthetic changes that makes it feel more true to scale of a multi-10's of millions seller IP.

I don't really care about the gameplay. It can be action-based or turn based. I happen to like both. But I am a person of the latter statement and just find myself disappointed in the chibi-style assets that's mostly apparent on dedicated handhelds/mobile devices., and it looks like the Switch just isn't changing that.

I would have been livid if Fire Emblem kept the same chibi-style graphics from the 3DS games since I loved the effort that went into Fire Emblem on the GameCube/Wii. There are some that are still disappointed in how Three Houses look and it could be better, but at least it literally changed all assets from the 3DS games into something that look like it made a shift to a much more powerful system.


r9LxiRY.gif

19.jpg


My question is why does Pokemon specifically have to be made in this low quality chibi-style design when it could still be the same gameplay-wise as Dragon Quest but look like this:
dragon-quest-xi-echoes-of-an-elusive-age-screen-02-ps4-us-16mar18


Pokemon can still be random encounter since this image perfectly depicts a linear road along with patches of grass that could be used for random encounters. However, with assets like this, I'd love to still see roaming pokemon. HOWEVER, even with roaming pokemon you could still run into them and have an instanced turn based battle, so it won't need to be action based.

I know pokemon has hundreds of different pokemon and forms but that's where I come to my next question of why is the team so small? A bigger team could have departments dedicated to just focusing on rendering all of the pokemon with better assets while another department just focuses on the world/inhabitants. More people get paid and we all get a more true-to-life style pokemon. Yay.

Serebii & Glio
Do you guys see where I'm coming from? I'm not asking for a genre shift in pokemon but just a better presentation of it.
 
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Murfield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,425
I think that Let's Go are better games than Sun/Moon in a lot of areas, and I'm not a "gen wunner".
To each his own I guess.

I agree with this, Sun/Moon felt so constraining, Let's Go had some wonderful ideas as well as some terrible ones. The overall experience I found positive. I feel a little disappointed that we can't hold on to some of those wonderful ideas.

My favorite gen is a tossup between III and IV (platinum specifically) so I have kept up with the series as well.
 

Deleted member 11626

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,199
I'm sorry, but anyone claiming the Pokémon battle system hasn't changed clearly doesn't play the games. What we have now with gen 7 is a completely different game. New types, physical/special split, field effects, entry hazards, mega evolutions, double battles, z-moves, etc. Modern competitive Pokémon is a deeper PvP experience than just about any other online multiplayer there is. I've been playing since red/blue and migrating to competitive has made the games a blast as an adult.
 

Deleted member 8674

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,240
I think that is in the region of "review well".

Compared to other Nintendo exclusive franchises?

As usual, I feel that in these threads, there are always two different types of conversations happening at once.
1) There are those that actually due want some genre-shifting change to Pokemon which is mostly what I see a lot of the consist defending from familiar faces.
2) And there are the people that want just big aesthetic changes that makes it feel more true to scale of a multi-10's of millions seller IP.

I don't really care about the gameplay. It can be action-based or turn based. I happen to like both. But I am a person of the latter statement and just find myself disappointed in the chibi-style assets that's mostly apparent on dedicated handhelds/mobile devices., and it looks like the Switch just isn't changing that.

I would have been livid if Fire Emblem kept the same chibi-style graphics from the 3DS games since I loved the effort that went into Fire Emblem on the GameCube/Wii. There are some that are still disappointed in how Three Houses look and it could be better, but at least it literally changed all assets from the 3DS games into something that look like it made a shift to a much more powerful system.


r9LxiRY.gif

19.jpg


My question is why does Pokemon specifically have to be made this low quality chibi-style design when it could still be the same gameplay-wise as Dragon Quest but look like this:
dragon-quest-xi-echoes-of-an-elusive-age-screen-02-ps4-us-16mar18


Pokemon can still be random encounter since this image perfectly depicts a linear road along with patches of grass that could be used for random encounters. However, with assets like this, I'd love to still see roaming pokemon. HOWEVER, even with roaming pokemon you could still run into them and have an instanced turn based battle, so it won't need to be action based.

I know pokemon has hundreds of different pokemon and forms but that's where I come to my next question of why is the team so small? A bigger team could have departments dedicated to focusing on rendering all of the pokemon with better assets while another department just focuses on the world/inhabitants. More people get paid and we all get a more true-to-life style pokemon. Yay.

Serebii & Glio
Do you guys see where I'm coming from? I'm not asking for a genre shift in pokemon but just a better presentation of it.

Because sales what matter at the end of the day and if that can be achieved with minimum effort then why change?
 

hussien-11

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,315
Jordan
My question is why does Pokemon specifically have to be made this low quality chibi-style design when it could still be the same gameplay-wise as Dragon Quest but look like this:

Pokemon, in my humble opinion, is not about how detailed the world is, or how it can be. like other Nintendo games, they prefer simple style.

it is about the creatures themselves, they are the star of the show, and you can always tell that a lot of love and care goes into their creation.

btw, Dragon Quest is no different, it is a game that is always faithful to its traditions, maybe even more than Pokemon.
its original release came without voice acting, and with midi music
on PS4
3DS/Switch release had/will have a full 16-bit style adventure too.
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
Pokémon has a three year development cycle, so it's not really a surprise that we're not getting AAA quality graphics.

But Generation 9 in three years from now will look better than Generation 8, and we still won't have a new mainline Dragon Quest or mainline 3D Zelda.

Game Freak prioritizes speed and consistency over quality. And considering the franchise depends on staying fresh with new Pokémon, it's probably the best approach.
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,327
Investing more more money when your game still sells millions while having an indie budget would be dumb
Pokemon fans know no better and they would buy whatever Nintendo throws at them
I mean have you seen how excited people are for the next pokemon shield and sword game? despite being almost exactly the same game as the last ones


Obligatory Pokemon fans insult and having no clue how the Pokemon franchise works post.

A neccessity in every fuck Gamefreak thread.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,792
Peru
I would have been livid if Fire Emblem kept the same chibi-style graphics from the 3DS games since I loved the effort that went into Fire Emblem on the GameCube/Wii. There are some that are still disappointed in how Three Houses look and it could be better, but at least it literally changed all assets from the 3DS games into something that look like it made a shift to a much more powerful system.

Despite that I generally don't like the art direction of FE3H, at least it seems that gameplay-wise the series is getting a logical evolution.

I don't see anything of that in Sword&Shield.

Like Kirby, Yoshi, Xenoblade etc yes. Not every game has to score a 97-98 like Mario and Zelda...

I'm going to laugh out loud if the next Kirby game is a bigger step forward than Pokemon Sword&Shield.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,423
I think we should wait until we actually see more about what new features and changes Sword and Shield bring to the table before we freak out about it not advancing or changing the formula, because right now the entire arguement is a reaction based entirely on presentation (which you could argue they're not doing enough with to be sure, but that's not what a lot of people here are doing)
 

Joltik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,762
The only 3D Pokemon games that have a Chibi-art style are XY and Let's Go. SuMo and SwSh have the characters in normal proportions.

I'm going to laugh out loud if the next Kirby game is a bigger step forward than Pokemon Sword&Shield.
Kirby is one of the more experimental Nintendo franchise. So that wouldn't be a total shock.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,370
Because sales what matter at the end of the day and if that can be achieved with minimum effort then why change?

But we know that Pokemon can sell more than it does currently though. It's not like the last few titles are the best selling ones in the series. Even if it hasn't crashed it's also clearly not anywhere near its peak either.

The only 3D Pokemon games that have a Chibi-art style are XY and Let's Go. SuMo and SwSh have the characters in normal proportions.


Kirby is one of the more experimental Nintendo franchise. So that wouldn't be a total shock.

Kind of. Kirby's mainline titles all follow one out of two pretty clear formulas - either Kirby's Adventure or Kirby's Super Star (without the multi-game gimmick, so closer to Return to Dream Land formula). The difference is that the series often gets spin-offs that also are platformers or action games (rather than in completely different genres like kart racing or sports) and those can be very different from the main titles in spite of being in the same genre.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,423
But we know that Pokemon can sell more than it does currently though. It's not like the last few titles are the best selling ones in the series. Even if it hasn't crashed it's also clearly not anywhere near its peak either.
I mean the peak is Gen 1 and is almost certainly impossible to attain because of how different the market is right now
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,327
But we know that Pokemon can sell more than it does currently though. It's not like the last few titles are the best selling ones in the series. Even if it hasn't crashed it's also clearly not anywhere near its peak either.



Kind of. Kirby's mainline titles all follow one out of two pretty clear formulas - either Kirby's Adventure or Kirby's Super Star (without the multi-game gimmick, so closer to Return to Dream Land formula). The difference is that the series often gets spin-offs that also are platformers or action games (rather than in completely different genres like kart racing or sports) and those can be very different from the main titles in spite of being in the same genre.


Pokemon sold best when the effort were actually comparatively minimal due to the hardware limits
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,370
I mean the peak is Gen 1 and is almost certainly impossible to attain because of how different the market is right now
But the market is larger nowadays. That's only an issue for Japan, not worldwide. And they're also millions away from Gold and Silver's sales.

The GBA games were the first time Pokemon's overall conservative design was easily noticeable (I remember back then people comparing its graphics with the map graphics of Megaman Battle Network for example which had bigger sprites and busier-looking locations), which is where they'd first take a hit from that approach.

Pokemon sold best when the effort were actually comparatively minimal due to the hardware limits

That also meant it didn't look outdated compared to other games in its hardware though. In fact, the the pixel artwork for the trainers and Pokemon, rather than just small sprites, gave it more visual clarity than many other GB games.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,423
But the market is larger nowadays. That's only an issue for Japan, not worldwide. And they're also millions away from Gold and Silver's sales.

The GBA games were the first time Pokemon's overall conservative design was easily noticeable (I remember back then people comparing its graphics with the map graphics of Megaman Battle Network for example), which is where they'd first take a hit from that approach.



That also meant it didn't look outdated compared to other games in its hardware though. In fact, the artwork for the pixel artwork for the trainers and Pokemon, rather than just small sprites, gave it more visual clarity than many other GB games.
The market is larger, but it's also way more crowded with competition coming from way more angles and way more price points
 

Redstreak

Member
Jan 17, 2018
590
Honestly this thread is extremely biased and hardcore Pokemon fans who would happily gobble up the same game for the rest of their lives, including probably the most hardcore fan in the world, defending the games with arguments that any normal person would not buy in a million years.

Fans of a game series continue wanting to play games in that series. News at 11
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,866
It looks to me that as far as Gamefreak is concerned, Pokemon is still a handheld series.

They seem to be treating the Switch just as a more powerful handheld, which is why we're not seeing the AAA quality Pokemon game that people keep whining about us not getting. Gamefreak doesn't seem to have any interest in making that.
 
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Kyzer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,709
I agree. Let's Go gave me a pretty amazing realization of what I wanted from RBY as a kid , but I don't think the ultimate vision of a living breathing sugimori inspired anime world will ever happen, it's a shame.

Monolith
Ubisoft
Blizzard
Square Enix
Zelda Team....

Game Freak co developing a new mainline franchise appeals to hardcore and older fans with one of the above would be immaculate.
And yes I actually believe Game Freak needs to be involved, the only acceptable substitute would be a top Nintendo studio that makes similarly tightly designed games.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,370
I agree. Let's Go gave me a pretty amazing realization of what I wanted from RBY as a kid , but I don't think the ultimate vision of a living breathing sugimori inspired anime world will ever happen, it's a shame.

Monolith
Ubisoft
Blizzard
Square Enix

Game Freak co developing a new mainline franchise appeals to hardcore and older fans with one of the above would be immaculate.

It wouldn't even need to be officially a "mainline" title, but I'm pretty sure GameFreak doesn't want a developer that could completely outdo them technically like Monolith developing a Pokemon RPG with core Pokemon features like capturing (not in a limited way like the GC titles), battles and trading, since it'd just hurt the value of the main series.
 

Deleted member 32018

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,628
Game Freak co developing a new mainline franchise appeals to hardcore and older fans with one of the above would be immaculate.

Monolith: They do great with what they have but Xenoblade 2 was flawed visually (blurry/poor UI), the story was okish and I'm not a huge fan of the character designs or the english VA.

Ubisoft: Towers and/or MTX.

Blizzard: MTX, mobile game etc.

Square Enix: Depends if you want a Pokemon game in the next 10 years or not.
 

Andri

Member
Mar 20, 2018
6,017
Switzerland
So basically Gamefreak is a lazy dev the thread ?
Maybe people are not accepting the "stagnating quality", but actually think the quality is increasing.

Wild idea, but people can indeed have different opinions than your own, without being "apologists" or "suckign up to nintendo/gamefreak/tpc.

I never really get how people can be so incredibly out of touch that they think a franchise can survive as a consistent 10+m seller for 23 years just on "marketing" with the actual quality of the games having apparently nothing to do with it.
And nope, the mainline games are not the biggest contributor to the IP, but since most of the things you say are wrong its not surprising you are wrong about this too.
 

flexicon

Member
Nov 5, 2018
50
User Banned (3 Days): Junior phase account antagonizing other members, previous infractions
Are people trying to audition to become an accountant for Gamefreak or do people honestly think talking about sales numbers or demographics is an interesting or even good defense for visual and game design?

At this point I don't even blame Joe because he knows where his pounds are coming from but the rest you...
 

Kyzer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,709
It wouldn't even need to be officially a "mainline" title, but I'm pretty sure GameFreak doesn't want a developer that could completely outdo them technically like Monolith developing a Pokemon RPG with core Pokemon features like capturing (not in a limited way like the GC titles), battles and trading, since it'd just hurt the value of the main series.
Yeah probably not but im sure one of those studios would be happy to Co-Develop with some game freak people at the helm, similar to smash bros development but with a more collaborative lean than simply outsourcing or licensing out the franchise

Let's Go for younger and more casual experience
Keep traditional games so that we never lose them
And new third mainline franchise for hardcore and older fans who also want to try something new
 

Tathanen

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,024
Guys this isn't about open world pokemon, about unreal engine pokemon, about [insert modern trend] pokemon. This is about a franchise built on a conceit of incredible potential and never even beginning to approach it.

https://www.nsidr.com/archive/poka-c-mon-snapped/1

I wrote this fifteen years ago. This is not a new desire, and it's telling that the same kinds of arguments are being made in 2019. Pokemon has changed in less meaningful ways than almost any similarly aged franchise, but it's not even about that. It's that it's always been the most surface level scraping of an incredibly vast concept and technology has been advanced enough to express that concept fully for fifteen years. And they've never even shown interest in trying.

Pokemon could be so, so much more.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
As usual we have people clamouring for an open world Pokemon game, an MMO Pokemon game, a Pokemon game with destructible environments (dunno what the heck that even means), a Pokemon game with 4 v 4 battles (which are called 'full party' battles in said comment despite the fact that Pokemon parties have always been 6), a DQXIesque Pokemon game and I could go on.

These threads are just messes as a result. The common denominator between all these people it seems is that they simply don't like Pokemon games, evidently. Which is fine. Just don't get why they care so much that they clamour for them to change so drastically, for no reason beyond appealing to themselves.
 
As usual, I feel that in these threads, there are always two different types of conversations happening at once.

Do you guys see where I'm coming from? I'm not asking for a genre shift in pokemon but just a better presentation of it.
Sword & Shield's artstyle isn't chibi. I get a lot of the frustration (I'm frustrated too), but one of the few things that GF has been good about advancing in terms of visuals lately was making the models and world to scale. Even Sun & Moon's proportions feel much more natural than Gen 6's.

jfR8YeV.jpg

p9YLHsx.jpg
 

foxuzamaki

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,546
These armchair developers talks always annoy me because the ones spouting the "lazy devs" rhetoric seem to think that their own idea is so infallible simply for no other reason than it is their idea. That Pokemon would always be a multi-million seller therefore any idea is automatically better than what we have because their idea is infalliable plus pokemon can't fail. It feeds into a loop that gives these people so much baffling cocky pride that they will attack others who just like the games as "mindless sheep". In truth, a lot of these ideas are in no way realistic or sustainable (especially earlier when people talked about how a Pokemon MMO was obviously a good idea simply because the idea sounded appealing without exploring any realities of what such an undertaking would actually take to even work).

And that doesn't even get to the other problem with these armchair developers: that they refuse to see that what they want is not what others want. That's what happens when you have a fanbase in the tens of millions, you get hundreds of different things that they like. I, for instance, love the story of Sun and Moon. This isn't what others want and that's fine. But for these armchair developers, not only are their ideas infallible, they are also the perfect idea an any and all direct counters of that are just fanboys who cannot understand the armchair developer's genius.
.
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,725
Italy
Because sales what matter at the end of the day and if that can be achieved with minimum effort then why change?
Because I'ma a gamer and I want to enjoy something more ambitious from such a huge franchise...? I don't have any share in Nintendo or TPC at the moment and I'm pretty sure they can sell as well as before even shaking the formula a little bit.
 

milkyway

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 17, 2018
3,000
I think the main series is fine - definitely some let downs in the past couple of generations and graphically not the evolution I'd have hoped for with Gen 8, but all in all it's still staying fresh and consistent enough to continue being well enjoyable for me.

What it has consistently failed in really is the spin offs. Most of them are terrible - with the exception of their N64 offerings and sort of Pokken. There's so many cool things they could do beyond the main games style and they go with boring, frivelous shit every time. And then they have games like Colisseum/XD and Let's Go that are just watered down, mediocre versions of the main series. I know people like the Pokemon Mystery series but I've tried and find the games extremely dull and shallow. Then you have a number of freemium crap games - I get it, it makes sense. But I feel like there's more potential for spin-off greatness and they don't seem to care much to tap into it.
 
OP
OP
Revolsin

Revolsin

Usage of alt-account.
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,373
So basically Gamefreak is a lazy dev the thread ?
Maybe people are not accepting the "stagnating quality", but actually think the quality is increasing.

Wild idea, but people can indeed have different opinions than your own, without being "apologists" or "suckign up to nintendo/gamefreak/tpc.

I never really get how people can be so incredibly out of touch that they think a franchise can survive as a consistent 10+m seller for 23 years just on "marketing" with the actual quality of the games having apparently nothing to do with it.
And nope, the mainline games are not the biggest contributor to the IP, but since most of the things you say are wrong its not surprising you are wrong about this too.

I wouldn't say lazy dev as much as a dev that's not being given the proper resources and budget to be bigger and better. Like I said, it's like they're getting the shaft for their own franchise's success.

A franchise making this much profit shouldn't be this far behind on graphics or otherwise.
 

BeaconofTruth

Member
Dec 30, 2017
3,415
"I just wanna see change"

> Pokémon Colosseum
> Pokken Tournament
> Pokémon Stadium
> Pokémon Snap
> Pokémon Trozei
> Pokémon Go
(Edit)
>Pokémon Mystery Dungeon
Do I need to keep going?
Literally none of them build upon what the op is talking about. They aren't improving the rpg and making changes to that.

One is a fighting game, two are glorified supergameboys for their respective consoles, a camera game they haven't touched since 64, etc.

Nothing the op said was too obtuse for you to not get that, holy shit.