Poland seems to be going wrong
- Thread starter Geoff
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Was this in order to purge the courts of """"""communists""""""?
Tell me about it. Had two Poles I know on Facebook talk about the value of refugee internment camps in the EU. Fucking vile.
Not really. The thing is that the populist right isn't neoliberal like the right in the US. They have no problem with welfare and even use programs like the child benefits someone already mentioned in this thread to win over voters.
Generally I think the understanding of social democracy is too limited in Poland to see the difference between that and actual social democracy.
The SLD(DLA) disappeared between 2011 and 2015 and in its place "Modern" popped up. The only left wing party in Poland currently, but with less than 10% of votes.
That said, the volatile nature of the party system means that, even though it currently seems like it, there is no ideological reason for Polands current love affair with the right wing.
Who knows whats going to happen once the refugee topic dies down.
Also important to note that Law and Justice (PiS) knows how important the EU is for Poland. So while they use an anti-EU, anti-Elite rhetoric to gain voters, they would never try to drag Poland out of the EU.
One of the reasons why some people argue that PiS isn't actually a populist party is that one definition of populism speaks of a so called "thin ideology" meaning that populists don't really have an ideological convictions and rather let voter biases fill in the blanks. PiS is certainly populist on some issues, but they also have quite a thick ideology.
Nazism in Poland is mainly taught from the victims perspective.
Poland again sees itself as the victim now. The victim of elitist EU rule infringing on their sovereignty. And, through some twisted nationalist logic, the victim of (potential) refugee influx.
The way to fight against that is a populist, nationalist uprising with strong racist tendencies. From their perspective the connection to Nazism doesn't really pop up, even though its obvious from an outside perspective.
Soon you'll start blaming Russia for everything happening on this planet. FYI Russia is the main enemy of right wing Poland.
Doesn't mean Putin can't support them. I mean, I doubt he generally gives a fuck about what Poland thinks about Russia, but more instability and tensions within the EU are always good for him and his oligarch buddies.
The thing is Polish political spectrum after 1989 never really respected the hard left/right division. Case in point - the DLA was actually the one that put in force abortion ban in the 1990s with co-operation from Church officials.
The main political differences over ideology happened from 1989 till 2005 - DLA was the former communist party, while the other side was descended from ex-opposition leaders. In 2005 PO won on a centrist platform and no mention was done of ideology till 2010 when following the crash that killed the President PiS (whose leader Jaroslaw was President's twin brother) decided one more time to position us/them.
Right now there is a project that will forbid abortion if the pregnancy even in case of genetic damage even though vast majority of Poles (including PiS own electorate) oppose the motion, and 40% support pro-choice!
It's one big mess lol
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Russia could gain from Europe instability (only in a short term and they know it), I agree. But supporting their open enemies? Only if it's some kind of 4th dimensional chess from grandmaster Putin, but I highly doubt it.
Russia has many internal problems now. In a long term they want sanctions relief and stable trading partners in EU. All that talks about invading Eastern Europe and Baltic countries are BS for local electorate. And guess who is the main beneficiary of this BS? Right wing parties.
I know it, I am Latvian.
Australia...? Ireland? Canada? I don't actually know, but you don't hear bad stories about them.
I second this. Sure we have some problems in Sweden, all countries do, but we are doing pretty damn good.
Oz with their refugee policy? LOL, sure.
I'm not saying he's directly supporting Kaczyński, but he certainly does not care PiS itself hates him if they help destabilize Europe.
I don't think Russia is gonna invade, but that is not the only way to spread influence, just ask Miloš, our good president who moonlights as a Kremlin stooge.
Aren't Swedish Democrats (great name, btw, almost as funny as when our local Neonazi party called itself The Workers Party for Social Justice) expected t make huge gains in your upcoming elections?
Countries still pay EU fines though, especially when it comes to environmental damage when not following EU regulations. Greece pays to the EU 35 million a year for illegal garbage dumps. Recently EU court ordered Greece to pay 180million Euro compensation to a Libanese ship build facility owner. 100 of millions of euro fines were and are still paid for our national electrical company too, that still uses lignite.
Yeah, they're gonna get around 20%. But most likely be kept out of having any big influence. And they're not really Nazis (although they were at one point). I don't like them, but I also don't like it when people inaccurately label them to make them sound even worse than they really are. Their are right wing nationalists.
Oh sorry, I did not mean they were Nazis, I just used some similar naming shenanigans that one of our far right parties, that actually is full Neonazi, employed.
It's actually not "Swedish Democrats" either, it's "Sweden Democrats". Not that it matters much. :)
Drat, I wasn't sure and was too lazy to google it. Serves me right.
Don't get this people are so easily to blame Russia for things. And the structural base of the problems don't get fixed just ignored because blame Russia.
Hell isn't Poland pretty much asking the US to get more troops into Poland just to stick the finger to Russia? Or making LNG terminals to import US LNG instead so they can import less Russian gas
Ironically, every time I see anybody blames Russia for everything I remember how my Russian friends blame USA for everything. I always tell them the person/country who blames others for their own problems will never solve this problems.
We had a similar sentiment from Trump: "Good people on both sides"
It wasn't relevant here, and it certainly isn't relevant in Poland
Putting aside PiS, if all Putin wants is an end to sanctions and peace and friendship with the EU, then why has he spent the last decade acting like a Bond villain?
The Migrant Crisis is really showing the true colors of people in nations for being closet racists. White Nationalists have always been a thing, but it's been relegated to the fringes of society up until now in most parts of the Western world. Now you have closeted racists opening up about their racism by trying to hide behind an immigration debate. Right now we are seeing the death throws (hopefully) of white nationalism that will either end up with another regional or world war or several countries reverting back to pre-war era politics and protectionism, leading to another global economic collapse.
Ah yes, good old Polish megalomania. I bet some of those nationalists in the current regime still believe they can built a new Intermarium, a counter model to the decadent West, an Eastern EU under their own control. Total Lunatics.
There's a considerable amount of Poles in my area and they to a man/woman despise Russia with a hated I've rarely seen. Is there something to suggest things are different in Poland or is it just ERA doing the whole blame Russia thing ?
There's been a lot of what aboutism that I've seen in response to this, but there are three issues that are really worth highlighting.
1. If a judge is over 65 they have to retire. Kind of bull, but playing judges is a think that the last administration did. However there is a clause in this. The clause is that if you are over 65 and you appeal to the President, he can allow you to stay on. This is bullshit and blatant partisanship.
2. The Polish Constitution is being blatantly violated. The Commission that is meant to highlight breaking of the constitution are not allowed to publish responses on these issues, because they have to go through the current government, who have not allowed it. Their reasoning is that regardless of what he commission say, they were voted in by the polish people and the will of polish people trumps the constitution. Now I'm no expert of the Polish constitution, but the constitution in general is not to protect the rights of the Majority, but that of the minority. This is setting a very dangerous precedent. Imagine if Trump said the Republicans were voted in, ergo they don't have to follow the constitution?
3. The EU have mostly come out against this, but no serious action is going to take place. Why? Because to get the EU to do anything it takes 27 members to agree to it. Several of these members, Italy being one, have said they would veto any action against Poland.
There is potential for the Poland Crisis to become a real problem for the EU. It's going to expose a problem that's been there since it's origin and it might shake some faith in the Union.
1. If a judge is over 65 they have to retire. Kind of bull, but playing judges is a think that the last administration did. However there is a clause in this. The clause is that if you are over 65 and you appeal to the President, he can allow you to stay on. This is bullshit and blatant partisanship.
2. The Polish Constitution is being blatantly violated. The Commission that is meant to highlight breaking of the constitution are not allowed to publish responses on these issues, because they have to go through the current government, who have not allowed it. Their reasoning is that regardless of what he commission say, they were voted in by the polish people and the will of polish people trumps the constitution. Now I'm no expert of the Polish constitution, but the constitution in general is not to protect the rights of the Majority, but that of the minority. This is setting a very dangerous precedent. Imagine if Trump said the Republicans were voted in, ergo they don't have to follow the constitution?
3. The EU have mostly come out against this, but no serious action is going to take place. Why? Because to get the EU to do anything it takes 27 members to agree to it. Several of these members, Italy being one, have said they would veto any action against Poland.
There is potential for the Poland Crisis to become a real problem for the EU. It's going to expose a problem that's been there since it's origin and it might shake some faith in the Union.
In the first decade of his rule Russia was on the way to democracy, but something happened between Western world and Russia. Maybe Putin and russian elite were not welcomed in the world powers club at the time because of their shady business, I don't know the reason. But Putin makes U-turn and doing everything to upset the West since 2010. Upset, but not destroy, I must say.
I could write more about complicated russian history, but this would be OT in this thread.
But that's Politics 101. You'll never get anywhere being accurate or fair with your labels.
We're in the middle of crises surrounding healthcare and housing, for some entry-level examples.
I'm thankful that our legislature is essentially devoid of the traditional right to far-right nationalism plaguing the rest of the world, though, in spite of our unelected west Tory leader who reflexively fanboys for the wasteman.
I have no idea what you're talking about. What I'm saying is that no, 50k neonazis didn't march through the streets of Warsaw.
Poland Independence Day is being celebrated every year just like the 4th of July. It always attracts tens of thousands of participants regardless of the party in power.
Last year, because of the political climate in the country and the ruling party's focus on upholding "traditional" (regressive) values, lots and lots of racist people took part in it, including organized groups of hooligans and yes, neonazis. It's a sign of the terrifying direction the country's heading and one of the reasons I feel alien in my own country but it wasn't a gathering of 50 thousands neonazis. It just factually wasn't.
Since I'm not assuming you're a Trump supporter just because you're from the US, could you please do me the courtesy of not assuming I'm a democracy hating bigot just because I'm from Poland?
Ireland currently has a dreadful housing crisis and a big homeless problems. Also the healthcare system is in perpetual crisis. It also has a very weak government. However I doubt we will see a rise of the political right in this country even if there are problems with hate crimes. http://www.thejournal.ie/hate-crime-4105605-Jul2018/
You should tell Washington Post this, because they wrote:
We're all in a fight to squash the latest fascist uprisings both in America and Europe, but let's not pretend that apolitical families having picnics and enjoying the pomp were the majority of marchers.
so basically like Rzeczpospolita? :) To do this they need to invade Litva, Belarus and Ukraine first.
It wasn't, just one example – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTV_(Russia)#Change_of_management
Also, regarding to "West vs Russia" - it's all started from Kosovo → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Pristina_airport
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Hasn’t there been a rise in nationalist parties/violence due to the strain of migrants?
Essentially a f**k you, got mine?
Western Europe wants buffer states against Russia
I would reccomend looking into Khodorkovsky, Magnitsky, and the circumstances surrounding Bill Browder. Essentially Putin went past the point of return by becoming the the richest man in the world by threatening the richest in Russia and demanding 50% cuts.
Yes, but so far it doesn't look like they'll take control of government, unlike in Italy.
It's actually best to let them join a coalition as a junior partner FWIW. In Finland they did and it killed the right-wing populist party, and in Denmark they've stopped jumping in the polls (though most other parties have adopted their rhetoric, but at least they're not crazies with autocratic tendencies).
No, we want functional democracies that respect the rule of law.
You know what?
You are 100% correct. There's no point in splitting hairs.
They sponsor far right parties and fuel suspicion against migrants and they helped push displaced populations out of Syria.
The Russian will try to exploit every crack in western society. If that means supporting left or right wings issues they will. And they west does exactly the same. Psy ops is as old as empires are. Nothing really changed in the last 3000 years.
One party, which was already on the rise well before that. Then there are more extreme ones of course, but they are very small. Violence hasn't really increased that much AFAIK.
Basically this. I am in this situation where I considered moving somewhere, but I'm afraid that my family can also be treated poorly.
World War II was only 70 years ago. Hard to remember that 70 years is a literal drop in the bucket as far as human history goes.
I think we're seeing that the idea that the world has "moved past" the questions, challenges, and hardships that have surfaced since Nazism's rise to relevance and that the idea that Nazism was "discredited" because Hitler's Germany lost the war is proving to be hopelessly naive. That box was forced open and a mere two generations of people scarred from death and suffering playing nice out of fear isn't going to close it that easily.
I don't know about that - I emigrated a few years ago to Paris. Never has my background been an issue - I finished French university, speak French, have an accent that a lot of people notice but all of them are intrigued and compliment me on speaking French. I enjoy the French way of life, French society, started a family here and plan to stay.
I think as everywhere if you are new to the country you need to compromise a bit and at least give an effort to live according to the values of the general populace.