Polish gov tries to fight "Polish death camps" phrase - it backfires

Potterson · Jan 29, 2018

If you're Polish, you're probably familiar with this issue. Many people when talking about nazi death camps like Auschwitz-Birkenau uses the phrase "Polish death camps". I don't know why - probably because it's located in Poland, right? I don't believe Obama meant to harm Poles by saying this phrase.

So our current government is known for being quite nationalistic. And they are trying to make it so if you say "Polish death camp" - you're breaking the law.

See here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...aust-auschwitz-criminal-offence-a8180471.html

But as soon as this news spread out outside Poland it... well, it backfired.

Take a look here to see what I'm talking about. The article is in Polish but all the social media posts etc are in English: http://politykawsieci.pl/analiza-24...e-informacyjna-social-media-germandeathcamps/

So yeah. People don't understand what's the issue here? We are not saying that all Polish people were lawful good during WW2. We know some hated Jews and helped Germans, some even worked in death camps.

And when I see some reactions I just... don't know what to say. Some people say Poland is trying to rewrite history by fighting with "Polish death camp" phrase. How? Almost 2 million Poles were murdered or died in concentration camps - so it's obvious we might get a little bit upset if people say these are "our" camps somehow.

Although I agree it may be problematic if we are talking about 1920's - there were polish labour camps where many Russians died.

Fritz · Jan 29, 2018

To make it a criminal offense is just completely out of proportion where the phrase "Polish Death Camps" is ambigious at worst. The move says much more about the polish government of today with their nationalistic resentment than it says about ww2.

I guess that is why people take offense.

boris_feinbrand · Jan 29, 2018

They were Nazi death camps in Poland, ergo Polish Death Camps. The move by the polish government is as transparent as it is fitting.
It's about pushing a falsified historical narrative by rebranding remembrance culture. It's a staple of far right alternative history. Since they can't argue with academic historical research, they try to manipulate public remembrance culture to fit their nationalistic ideology.
Being proud of your country doesn't absolve you of acknowledging it's uncomfortable history.

Potterson · Jan 29, 2018

boris_feinbrand said:
Being proud of your country doesn't absolve you of acknowledging it's uncomfortable history.

Why the heck concentration camps build by and run by nazi SS should be uncomfortable for Polish people...?

What is happening here.

KingSnake · Jan 29, 2018

It's your government making an issue out of nothing and given the ideology and recent public manifestations of both the government and of some Polish citizens nobody really believes that this is just some innocent discussion about syntax.

Red Cadet 015 · Jan 29, 2018

European laws against speech that are not direct threats or libelous/slanderous are wrong and dangerous.

Edit:

Jackpot said:
The ban the specific phrase is burying the lead. The government wants make it a crime to say Poland was complicit in the holocaust:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nd-israel-is-appalled/?utm_term=.758a817f0a46

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...nd-i-don-t-need-holocaust-education-1.5767630

And this is why. Holy shit. It's all fun and games till somebody else is in power. I'm sorry to be vindicated on this stuff. The only real free speech that which is near total and uncompromising in its allowances.

Mr. X · Jan 29, 2018

Don't say polish Death camp, say Death camp in Poland instead. It's the law.

Did a far right group win in Poland?

Alx · Jan 29, 2018

It's ok to try painting a more accurate image of those camps by labelling them correctly, but criminalizing the phrase isn't the way to do it. Especially when it seems to be used mostly in foreign countries, where Polish law wouldn't apply anyway.

Jackpot · Jan 29, 2018

The ban the specific phrase is burying the lead. The government wants make it a crime to say Poland was complicit in the holocaust:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki spoke by phone Sunday and agreed to open a dialogue to avoid further diplomatic fallout following Poland's initial approval of a law making it a criminal offense to mention Polish complicity in crimes committed during the Holocaust.

Polish lawmakers voted Friday for a bill that would fine or jail people who blamed Poland or Poles for Nazi atrocities committed on its soil during World War II, including the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews at the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp.

The party has aggressively protected Poland's image. After a massive right-wing march through Warsaw in November, with banners and chants of "white Europe" and "pure blood," some government officials defended the event as a simple independence day rally. One minister even called it "beautiful."

"The implication of the new law means that in theory, a Jewish Holocaust survivor from Poland who lives in Israel, who may make a statement such as, 'The Polish people were involved in the murder of my grandfather in the Holocaust' or 'My mother was murdered in a Polish extermination camp,' would be liable for imprisonment in Poland," Haaretz wrote.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nd-israel-is-appalled/?utm_term=.758a817f0a46

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...nd-i-don-t-need-holocaust-education-1.5767630

Deleted member 2254 · Jan 29, 2018

Fritz said:
To make it a criminal offense is just completely out of proportion where the phrase "Polish Death Camps" is ambigious at worst. The move says much more about the polish government of today with their nationalistic resentment than it says about ww2.

I guess that is why people take offense.

This is the issue. A lot of people refer to certain recent terrorist attacks as "the french attacks" or "the Paris attacks", doesn't automatically mean it was made by 100% French people, it means it happened in France. The "death camps", lagers, were also in Poland. They were in countries that weren't really okay with nazis, for the record. But how are they supposed to call them besides "Polish death camps"? "Death camps that are located in Poland but are not actually ran by the Polish people"? Making such a term illegal in the country's current climate is only asking for trouble, not unlike how some genius in Hungary had the brilliant idea to make a memorial mass on the International Holocaust Remembrance Day... for the dictator who had the Jewish people deported. It might have been a coincidence, but in that climate I don't blame if people think otherwise.

Mivey · Jan 29, 2018

Potterson said:
Why the heck concentration camps build by and run by nazi SS should be uncomfortable for Polish people...?

What is happening here.

They want to outlaw a simple phrase. Seems they are a bit uncomfortable about people talking about it. I mean, did people start implying that Polish people made those camp, independent of the nazis? No, they are talking about the Nazi death machine, but focusing on Central and Eastern Europe, since a significant number of them were built there. Auschwitz being the most infamous, and it happens to be situated on Polish ground. Seeing that as a slight against your nation is dumb, wanting to outlaw the very words is utterly insane. But that seems to be par of the course for the current Polish government.

KingSnake · Jan 29, 2018

Jackpot said:
The ban the specific phrase is burying the lead. The government wants make it a crime to say Poland was complicit in the holocaust:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nd-israel-is-appalled/?utm_term=.758a817f0a46

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...nd-i-don-t-need-holocaust-education-1.5767630

Oh, there you go, there is more to it than meets the eye.

Galkinator · Jan 29, 2018

Jackpot said:
The ban the specific phrase is burying the lead. The government wants make it a crime to say Poland was complicit in the holocaust:

Welp, that's way worse than what OP said if true. There's no denying the Polish involvement and they are indeed responsible for thousands of deaths by their own hands. Disgusting law and I hope it doesn't get final approval.

Alice · Jan 29, 2018

Red Cadet 015 said:
European laws against speech that are not direct threats or libelous/slanderous are wrong and dangerous.

Edit:

And this is why. Holy shit. It's all fun and games till somebody else is in power. I'm sorry to be vindicated on this stuff. The only real free speech that which is near total and uncompromising in its allowances.

Why're you saying Europe, when this is specifically a Poland thing?

Jackpot said:
The ban the specific phrase is burying the lead. The government wants make it a crime to say Poland was complicit in the holocaust:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nd-israel-is-appalled/?utm_term=.758a817f0a46

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...nd-i-don-t-need-holocaust-education-1.5767630

That is such disgusting revisionist history, holy shit...

Red Cadet 015 · Jan 29, 2018

Alice said:
... What? Are you insinuating that Neo Nazis should be able to yell their Nazi shit without being punished for it? Where does this "threat" begin in your book?

If you were just against this Poland example, whch, yeah, is pretty stupid, you wouldn't have extended it to "European".

Yes, I am insinuating that. Tolerance for speech must be as close to total as possible. Anything else leads to this Polish stuff when liberals and progressives are not in power. Threat begins when you make a direct, specific threat against someone or something.

boris_feinbrand · Jan 29, 2018

Potterson said:
Why the heck concentration camps build by and run by nazi SS should be uncomfortable for Polish people...?

What is happening here.

Polish collaborators and complices are well documented. To pretend that these camps were completely run and supplied by Germans is categorically false.

Trying to make it a criminal offense calling them polish is a blatant attempt to manipulate remembrance. It's aimed at creating a false sense of moral superiority. One that isn't supported by tons and tons of historical evidence and research.

Alice · Jan 29, 2018

Red Cadet 015 said:
Yes, I am insinuating that. Tolerance for speech must be as close to total as possible. Anything else leads to this Polish stuff when liberals and progressives are not in power. Threat begins when you make a direct, specific threat against someone or something.

There's a point when this Freeze Peach bullshit goes out of hand, you've reached it.

If you believe that Neo Nazi speech isn't a threat and a fucking hate crime, then I really don't know where your head took a wrong turn.

KingSnake · Jan 29, 2018

Red Cadet 015 said:
Yes, I am insinuating that. Tolerance for speech must be as close to total as possible. Anything else leads to this Polish stuff when liberals and progressives are not in power. Threat begins when you make a direct, specific threat against someone or something.

What European law are you talking about in your posts? What law that has any kind of connection with the topic of this thread?

You're making a logical fallacy out of "A government makes a bad law thus no law should be made by any government".

Alice · Jan 29, 2018

KingSnake said:
What European law are you talking about in your posts? What law that has any kind of connection with the topic of this thread?

He's referring to Germany, where it's against the law to yell "Heil Hitler" or raise the arm for the Hitlergruß. Like those are views that are worth protecting and should be allowed to utter without punishment.

In fucking Germany, of all places.

tuxfool · Jan 29, 2018

Alice said:
There's a point when this Freeze Peach bullshit goes out of hand, you've reached it.

I wouldn't bother arguing with that user. It's hopeless.

Red Cadet 015 · Jan 29, 2018

Alice said:
There's a point when this Freeze Peach bullshit goes out of hand, you've reached it.

If you believe that Neo Nazi speech isn't a threat and a fucking hate crime, then I really don't know where your head took a wrong turn.

It's not a hate crime in America, and it shouldn't be anywhere. Freedom is a constant struggle to maintain for all people against various forces that would seek to restrict freedom. To ban certain types of speech is to ignore this struggle, and allow hatred to fester undercover. Eventually, this will turn the struggle from one of speech and literature to one of bullets. No one's speech should be banned unless it is libelous or threatening. Period.

Alice · Jan 29, 2018

tuxfool said:
I wouldn't bother arguing with that user. It's hopeless.

Yeah, I know.

Red Cadet 015 said:
It's not a hate crime in America, and it shouldn't be anywhere. Freedom is a constant struggle to maintain for all people against various forces that would seek to restrict freedom. To ban certain types of speech is to ignore this struggle, and allow hatred to fester undercover. Eventually, this will turn the struggle from one of speech and literature to one of bullets. No one's speech should be banned unless it is libelous or threatening. Period.

You have a racist with strong Neo Nazi ties governing your country, kinda hard to take your Freeze Peach bullshit seriously in light of that.

America got where it is, BECAUSE that sort of behaviour was normalized.

KingSnake · Jan 29, 2018

Alice said:
He's referring to Germany, where it's against the law to yell "Heil Hitler" or raise the arm for the Hitlergruß. Like those are views that are worth protecting and should be allowed to utter without punishment.

In fucking Germany, of all places.

But that's a German law, not an European law since we're in a topic that deals with the meaning of the terms among others.

Alice · Jan 29, 2018

KingSnake said:
But that's a German law, not an European law since we're in a topic that deals with the meaning of the terms among others.

Yeah, made his agenda pretty damn obvious. Not to mention that something used to whitewash history, like Poland is doing, is not at ALL comparable to Germany having a law that's meant to ATONE for history that we've never even once TRIED to whitewash.

If's offensive as fuck.

tuxfool · Jan 29, 2018

KingSnake said:
But that's a German law, not an European law since we're in a topic that deals with the meaning of the terms among others.

Merkel is the president of Europe.

Dontcha know?

KingSnake · Jan 29, 2018

Red Cadet 015 said:
It's not a hate crime in America, and it shouldn't be anywhere. Freedom is a constant struggle to maintain for all people against various forces that would seek to restrict freedom. To ban certain types of speech is to ignore this struggle, and allow hatred to fester undercover. Eventually, this will turn the struggle from one of speech and literature to one of bullets. No one's speech should be banned unless it is libelous or threatening. Period.

Hate speech is threatening to the receivers of the hate.

Alice · Jan 29, 2018

tuxfool said:
Merkel is the president of Europe.

Dontcha know?

Shhh.. They're not supposed to realize that the EU is a scam by Germany (TM)!

Red Cadet 015 · Jan 29, 2018

Alice said:
Yeah, I know.

You have a racist with strong Neo Nazi ties governing your country, kinda hard to take your Freeze Peach bullshit seriously in light of that.

America got where it is, BECAUSE that sort of behaviour was normalized.

And banning hate speech neither freed my family from slavery nor ended lynching nor gave us the surface rights due us. Free speech did. Imagine if the government made it illegal to even talk about these things for each of those critical steps forward. Infact, the Confederacy DID make it illegal to discuss those things. You have to make laws based on the assumption that your greatest enemy will wield them. To assume men will always be angles is shockingly naive.

And we may have a Nazi sympathizer in power now, but if you haven't noticed, he's been a bit hampered by the press.

Alice · Jan 29, 2018

Red Cadet 015 said:
And banning hate speech neither freed my family from slavery nor ended lynching nor gave us the surface rights due us. Free speech did. Imagine if the government made it illegal to even talk about these things for each of those critical steps forward. Infact, the Confederacy DID make it illegal to discuss those things. You have to make laws based on the assumption that your greatest enemy will wield them. To assume men will always be angles is shockingly naive.

And we may have a Nazi sympathizer in power now, but if you haven't noticed, he's been a bit hampered by the press.

Your whataboutisms are laughable in face of the offensive shit you're saying.

The fact that America DOESN'T have hate speech laws, is what got the dirtbag elected, because America has managed to Nazi phrases into Internet household memes.

KingSnake · Jan 29, 2018

Red Cadet 015 said:
And banning hate speech neither freed my family from slavery nor ended lynching nor gave us the surface rights due us. Free speech did.

Given this I think you just don't know what the said law is about.

Red Cadet 015 · Jan 29, 2018

KingSnake said:
But that's a German law, not an European law since we're in a topic that deals with the meaning of the terms among others.

I know that, but in general, European countries can restrict certain types of speech as they see fit.

Alice · Jan 29, 2018

Red Cadet 015 said:
I know that, but in general, European countries can restrict certain types of speech as they see fit.

Maybe you shouldn't talk about European laws, if you don't know shit about European laws. Just a suggestion.

iksenpets · Jan 29, 2018

As soon as you're banning speech in the name of national pride, it starts to look iffy. Like, it immediately calls to mind something like Turkish bans on acknowledging the Armenian genocide, given that they're banning acknowledgment of any Polish collaboration in the Holocaust, which obviously happened, even if Poles also died at the Nazis' hands.

Speech bans like this only work when they're done out of shame rather than pride, like German bans on any Nazi symbolism. It's fine if the Polish government wants to establish policy that they themselves refer to "Nazi camps built in Poland" or whatever, the same way, say, the American government has very politicked-out terminology it uses to refer to terrorist attacks, but trying to control what anyone in the country calls them is bad.

Also, anything the current right-wing nationalist government in Poland does is kind of immediately suspect. Like, I don't trust the guys waging war on judicial independence to be fair-minded arbiters around speech issues.

Potterson · Jan 29, 2018

What's also interesting is that our gov wants to fight more than just this one phrase (which, to be honset - I also think shouldn't be used, maybe not banned by law though).

This is just a draft from 2016 so I don't know if this is the final document quote. But the second point is about "various crimes that are crimes against humanity, peace or warcrimes". That it also should be punished by law if someone is saying that Poland - ANYTIME in history - commited a crime against peace or something. Which is totally idiotic. Every nation has commited such crime in some point in history.

kellar · Jan 29, 2018

Calling them Polish death camps just makes them sound like Poles are the people behind them.
And the Polish government is just being a government, some other government criminalize way stupider shit.

KingSnake · Jan 29, 2018

Red Cadet 015 said:
I know that, but in general, European countries can restrict certain types of speech as they see fit.

No, you don't know. Europeans countries in general have constitutions and the free speech is guaranteed in the said constitutions as much as it is in US. The said laws are very specific and any change needs to comply with the constitution anyhow.

Speaking of, I wonder if this new Polish law is in compliance with the Polish Constitution.

tuxfool · Jan 29, 2018

Red Cadet 015 said:
as they see fit.

Of course this would come from an American without the ability to understand nuance and finds happiness in the dumb political discourse that occurs in the US.

KingSnake said:
Speaking of, I wonder if this new Polish law is in compliance with the Polish Constitution.

Probably not, hence their desire to control the judiciary.

Fritz · Jan 29, 2018

I agree with Red Cadet. Alice, you're saying: "Like those are views that are worth protecting and should be allowed to utter without punishment", but who is the judge of that?

But in this special German case Alice is also right. I think the German legislation got it quite right after ww2. Human dignity is our most protected constitutional right and it does beat free speech. It is understood that the Hitlergruß, Swastikas, Holocaust Denial, etc. are infringing the dignity of the victims and the survivors, hence the ban. In all other cases threat and hate speech are the limits of free speech, just like it should be.

FormatCompatible · Jan 29, 2018

Mr. X said:
Don't say polish Death camp, say Death camp in Poland instead. It's the law.

Did a far right group win in Poland?

Death Poland Camps? Camps of Death from Poland?

This clearly is something that won't work. Inform people instead about your past properly so that you won't commit the same mistakes in the future.

Edit: of course propagation of hate speech and xenophobia should not be tolerated.

Red Cadet 015 · Jan 29, 2018

Alice said:
Your whataboutisms are laughable in face of the offensive shit you're saying.

The fact that America DOESN'T have hate speech laws, is what got the dirtbag elected, because America has managed to Nazi phrases into Internet household memes.

How is the Confederacy banning the discussion of slavery in any way negative to the institution a "whataboutism" in this context? The Polish government is trying to ban discussion their people's role (albeit however unwilling) in the Holocaust. While it's not exactly the same thing, it is similar in that it limits critical discussion of an event. That is extremely dangerous.

Trump getting elected is bad yes, but I live in America. I'm from the South. I'm black but I've been around alot or rural white working class people down there. I 100% guarantee you on my life that allowing this shit to come out now, and allowing Trump to show America's ass now, is worlds better than us repressing those people and making them go underground by banning discussion. They already feel set upon by liberalism. Fucking banning their speech entirely would be a disaster as it would just defer the expression of it into a more explosive result than the one we have now.

Red Cadet 015 · Jan 29, 2018

KingSnake said:
No, you don't know. Europeans countries in general have constitutions and the free speech is guaranteed in the said constitutions as much as it is in US. The said laws are very specific and any change needs to comply with the constitution anyhow.

No they aren't, at least in the major western European countries. We've already discussed Germany. France is trying to ban Muslim dress, and the UK is trying to ban face-sitting or something (sorry, that's the most recent thing I could think of there... as they are the most similar to the US). The UK also has more restrictive libel laws.

KingSnake · Jan 29, 2018

Red Cadet 015 said:
No they aren't, at least in the major western European countries. We've already discussed Germany. France is trying to ban Muslim dress, and the UK is trying to ban face-sitting or something (sorry, that's the most recent thing I could think of there... as they are the most similar to the US). The UK also has more restrictive libel laws.

UK doesn't have a Constitution per se. Again you're talking about things about what you know very little. Germany free speech vs. what's forbidden was already explained in detail to you. I don't know the subtleties of the French law, but for example in Austria they banned anything that covers the face specifically to avoid discrimination. Not that banning Muslim dress has anything to do with freedom of speech, so maybe stop moving goalposts.

Poxer · Jan 29, 2018

And here I thought there wouldn't be any more reasons for me to want to run away from Poland. Geez.

Alice · Jan 29, 2018

Fritz said:
I agree with Red Cadet. Alice, you're saying: "Like those are views that are worth protecting and should be allowed to utter without punishment", but who is the judge of that?

But in this special German case Alice is also right. I think the German legislation got it quite right after ww2. Human dignity is our most protected constitutional right and it does beat free speech. It is understood that the Hitlergruß, Swastikas, Holocaust Denial, etc. are infringing the dignity of the victims and the survivors, hence the ban. In all other cases threat and hate speech are the limits of free speech, just like it should be.

Common decency is the judge of that. There's no reason to allow people to spread hatred without punishment. Hell, if you become a victim of libel, you can also sue them and people get punished for making use of their Free Speech. It's the same damn thing.

Red Cadet 015 said:
How is the Confederacy banning the discussion of slavery in any way negative to the institution a "whataboutism" in this context? The Polish government is trying to ban discussion their people's role (albeit however unwilling) in the Holocaust. While it's not exactly the same thing, it is similar in that it limits critical discussion of an event. That is extremely dangerous.

Trump getting elected is bad yes, but I live in America. I'm from the South. I'm black but I've been around alot or rural white working class people down there. I 100% guarantee you on my life that allowing this shit to come out now, and allowing Trump to show America's ass now, is worlds better than us repressing those people and making them go underground by banning discussion. They already feel set upon by liberalism. Fucking banning their speech entirely would be a disaster as it would just defer the expression of it into a more explosive result than the one we have now.

Nowhere in Germany is "Speech" banned - You can say what you want. If you do think you have to yell "Heil Hitler", go right fucking ahead, you'll receive a fine for doing so, and rightfully so. If you want to, at all, equate THAT to the Confederacy banning the discussion of Slavery, it's a whataboutism at its finest.

*You* brought Germany into this - Germany's situation and laws are not at *all* comparable to what Poland is doing, and you've shown that you've not the slightest idea of how the law in Germany actually works.

Red Cadet 015 said:
No they aren't, at least in the major western European countries. We've already discussed Germany. France is trying to ban Muslim dress, and the UK is trying to ban face-sitting or something (sorry, that's the most recent thing I could think of there... as they are the most similar to the US). The UK also has more restrictive libel laws.

You can't discuss something you don't understand to begin with. You're so hilarously misinformed about all three of those topics that it's not even funny anymore.

Red Cadet 015 · Jan 29, 2018

KingSnake said:
Not that banning Muslim dress has anything to do with freedom of speech.

In the US "freedom of speech" is understood to be an all encompassing "freedom of expression." So that falls under it.

KingSnake · Jan 29, 2018

Red Cadet 015 said:
In the US "freedom of speech" is understood to be an all encompassing "freedom of expression." So that falls under it.

What does that French law have anything in common with the Polish law or the German law that you derailed this thread to?

Red Cadet 015 · Jan 29, 2018

KingSnake said:
What does this have anything to do with the Polish law or the German law that you derailed this thread to?

I didn't derail the thread, y'all's responses did. And it has to do with banning speech/expression, which must be all-encompassing as a human right.

But please, let's get back to discussing the specific Polish law.

The Polish law is dangerous because it limits discussion and scholarship on an important historical event that occurred there. Understanding history is critical to making decisions in the future. Depriving the population of these rights is both anti scholarly and misleading.

Kernel · Jan 29, 2018

I'm Polish and I've never heard of the term "Polish death camps". I've always heard them called Nazi death camps or Nazi death camps in Poland etc.

There were Poles who were complicit with Nazis. There also Poles who were members of the resistance as well.

It's not black and white but I've never seen their existence attributed to Poland, only Nazi Germany during the occupation in WW2.

Reminds me of certain assholes during high school who told me Poland defended with cavalry as Germany attacked with tanks in 1939.

ahoyhoy · Jan 29, 2018

Methinks the Poland doth protest too much.

QuicheFontaine · Jan 29, 2018

The phrase "Polish death camps" does seem a bit misleading

Polish gov tries to fight "Polish death camps" phrase - it backfires

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