Politico: Sanders Camp Admits Anti-Warren Script Was Deployed in Multiple Early States

OP
OP
Mercury Fred

Mercury Fred

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,566
Like you awkwardly concede here, that they were distributed doesn't necessarily mean they were approved. Doesn't have to be as extreme as "doesn't have any control over the talking points that it's putting out" either. Could be that Sanders and high level staff weren't as scrutinizing here and it burned them. I think at best it demonstrates sloppiness in their campaign if no one at a high level wanted this distributed as it was, yet it went out. At worst they always meant to issue these talking points which would be super weird since they would have at some point needed to answer for them and backtrack, so.... yeah this seems to be more likely a fuck-up than anything.

People trying to spin this as some 'Lyin' Bernie' thing, though.... seems even weaker than the hand-wringing over his health records.
I'm mostly interested in how this tracks with the campaign's history and trustworthiness with regard to the Warren electability spat.
 

SinkFla

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,887
Pensacola, Fl
Good God lol. They (Bernie camp) shouldn't have lied about it... But uh... what was said isn't factually incorrect or even remotely bad? The lying about it is the only glaring issue here and a pretty good shot to their own foot. Shame, really. The left is so busy eating their own they're making me very stressed out for the very real possiblity we are going to have to endure 4 more years of Orange Fuckface destroying the country.
 

GiantBreadbug

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,847
Referencing the scorpion and the frog and thinking Warren is the frog is approaching absolutely nuclear levels of Elizabeth Energy (Elizergy) and I am very here for it
 

Seattle6418

Member
Oct 25, 2017
436
Brasília Brazil
There's a large difference between acknowledging a fait divers that happened that ultimately has no interest whatsoever and making yet another thread on yet another flimsy excuse for yet another hollow controversy. This thread is not made in good faith in the slightest. The very article quoted belies the very silly and transparent OP.

And you had no quote for me :(
Bingo!

But to the point of the story, Sanders campaign deserves to be called out because they need to be better prepared for this type of shit. This was pretty mild, but it was just the start. It´s going to get a lot worse if he keeps having a good chance, and they have to be smart about it.

You cannot fall into these types of traps.
 

Space Madness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
922
I'm saying he needs to do better. If he wins I am gladly supporting him. This has been completely mishandled. He can't afford for his campaign to keep fucking up.

Everyone in the democratic primary is less conservative than Trump. Not sure what you are alluding to there.
Your post implies that he has bad hiring practices and credibility comparable to Trump. Which is unfair to say the least.

I'm saying that "less X" than Trump is a low bar to clear and sounds a lot like damning with faint praise. We need to do better like you said. I wouldn't describe some Democrats as less of a liberal than others so much as I would describe them as less conservative than someone in the GOP. That definitely applies to some candidates (though not Warren). That's more important than this. This issue is just a distraction that shouldn't push the needle from south of George Washington to just north of Trump in people's estimation of Bernie's credibility.

Bernie and Warren are both good candidates, I think. Both camps want to win, but I don't think that makes either less credible here. It seems just as plausible that both campaigns don't have complete control of their staff.
 

Bramblebutt

Member
Jan 11, 2018
1,644
can you explain it to us
Bernie is openly hostile to capital and favors nationalization of major industries for the public benefit. Warren favors regulation of capital, but largely doesn't reject the profit motive as a foundation for economic organization. We can debate the merits of each worldview, but most left/right axes would put the socialist decidedly to the left of the regulatory capitalist.
 

thepotatoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,712
Denver
I fear we’re going to have to go over how Bernie’s campaign never lied on every new page as long as the OP is claiming the campaign’s original statement was “not true”.

Bernie’s campaign never lied and the stakes here are going to remain very high if what we are fighting over is if it is a lie.

Edit: I am happy the conversation is getting more reasonable though, at least for now.
 
Last edited:
Aug 12, 2019
1,111
I feel like the Warren vs. Bernie media circus is easily one of the dumbest things I've seen so far this election cycle. It's coming down to the wire and candidates have to make their cases for why they should be the nominee. So, yes, that might also potentially involve some low key support for calling out other campaigns or making points regarding the elect-ability of yourself vs others. Is it dumb that Bernie and his camp downplayed this too much? Obviously. Was what was said somehow all that problematic? No. The fact that Democrats are constantly being asked to "play nice" for the sake of the party to an almost infuriating degree in which they can't actually have serious discussions about policies is making this whole cycle feel more ineffectual as a whole.

Now, I don't want Warren and Sanders fighting more than they have to as competing candidates because that's super bad for the progressive wing of the party. While the "complete non competition" had to be dropped at some point, it feels like the media is desperately trying to drum up a divide (which some people are really falling for it seems) for the ratings, when both Warren and Sanders clearly don't consider these more recent situations that big of a deal and would rather have policy speak for itself. I think they've both managed to mishandle this. Bernie clearly based upon this article and not trying to clarify his comments about women, and Warren for sort of letting the media play things up before really addressing the issue. I understand so many fellow Sanders supporters are passionate, as are so many Warren supporters, but this isn't the lane any of us need to be fighting because it just seems more likely to crater them both and clear the way for the Centrist to actual Republican candidates. Especially since we know this is an ideal area for outside influences to press on social media to further divides in the party.
 

gutter_trash

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,120
Montreal
This says alot about Sanders and Warren.

Sanders dodges and defensive, rarely admits to anything.

Warren keeps on taking the bait and acting as if it's so awful.

Warren fell for Trump's DNA challenge for crying out loud
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Bernie is openly hostile to capital and favors nationalization of major industries for the public benefit. Warren favors regulation of capital, but largely doesn't reject the profit motive as a foundation for economic organization. We can debate the merits of each worldview, but most left/right axes would put the socialist decidedly to the left of the regulatory capitalist.
can you be specific on the ways in which bernie sanders advocates for public ownership of the means of production, a necessary component for socialism
 

GiantBreadbug

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,847
I fear we’re going to have to go over how Bernie’s campaign never lied on every new page as long as the OP is claiming the campaign’s original statement was “not true”.

Bernie’s campaign never lied and the stakes here are going to remain very high if that’s what we are fighting over.
Kinda weird how effectively both sides of the Warren camp's mouths run with both the eagerness to gravely imply Sanders's is ripe with liars, sexists, but also equal eagerness to "just leave it in the past bro we need to work together"

I guess it's just a shame to see utter desperation dressed up so cynically in thin trimmings of "we're allies!" but that was only ever going to get her campaign so far
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
The burden of proof is on you. That's how arguments work.
Evidence would help both of us, actually. I was asking for this if anyone knew of any and I got were shrugs and attacks for daring to imply that Bernie's script might have been too aggressive. I was thinking I could talk to you in good faith when I was clearly mistaken.

You might as well believe that Biden is the zodiac killer because no one has proved otherwise.
You're taking this far too personal.
 

y2dvd

Member
Nov 14, 2017
2,055
The script described Warren's appeal as limited to the highly educated and financially well off. When spitting an uncontroversial fact becomes anti-person.

And let me get this straight, he actually pulled the script, but it was leaked and "His press aides never denied the veracity of the document."? Where's the lie?
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Kinda weird how effectively both sides of the Warren camp's mouths run with both the eagerness to gravely imply Sanders's is ripe with liars, sexists, but also equal eagerness to "just leave it in the past bro we need to work together"

I guess it's just a shame to see utter desperation dressed up so cynically in thin trimmings of "we're allies!" but that was only ever going to get her campaign so far
Warren is Bernie's friend and his campaign is filled with trash people, this isn't mutually exclusive.
 

GiantBreadbug

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,847
Warren is Bernie's friend and his campaign is filled with trash people, this isn't mutually exclusive.
What is exclusive is that one will win and the other will lose, and this fraying at the ends of Warren's relationship to the Sanders campaign is indicative of the fact that she and the people around her know which of those ways things are going for her

In retrospect, not surprising; but def embarrassing
 

Ashodin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,011
Burlington, NC
Remember people, they want us to fight Bernie v. Warren. And we have people here on Era willing to keep perpetuating it.

As for Bernie's camp, why would you not want to have a script for all your opponents? It's not a big deal tbh.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
What is exclusive is that one will win and the other will lose, and this fraying at the ends of Warren's relationship to the Sanders campaign is indicative of the fact that she and the people around her know which of those ways things are going for her

In retrospect, not surprising; but def embarrassing
You're moving the goal posts, your original post was about the context with the campaigns and I gave them to you. Not everything is black and white.
 

Bramblebutt

Member
Jan 11, 2018
1,644
can you be specific on the ways in which bernie sanders advocates for public ownership of the means of production, a necessary component for socialism
He's advocated for the nationalization of energy, banking, manufacturing, and healthcare and the widespread establishment of worker coops and workplace democracy.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
He's advocated for the nationalization of energy, banking, manufacturing, and healthcare and the widespread establishment of worker coops and workplace democracy.
warren has also advocated for most of those things, especially the nationalization of healthcare and the establishment of worker co-ops, so what's the specific threshold that makes her not a socialist when she and sanders have the same position on the means of production
 

GiantBreadbug

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,847
You're moving the goal posts, your original post was about the context with the campaigns and I gave them to you. Not everything is black and white.
there are no goalposts and we are not playing any fucked up sport here, but

Warren's campaign and Warren herself are now forwardly comfortable stoking these confrontations when they think they win a petty victory and desperate to cling to unity with Sanders when it looks like it's going badly. That's the context. There's the ball through the goalposts, if that helps.

warren has also advocated for most of those things, especially the nationalization of healthcare and the establishment of worker co-ops, so what's the specific threshold that makes her not a socialist when she and sanders have the same position on the means of production
"capitalist to my bones"

 

sphagnum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,216
does leftist theory say that the primary determinative factor is whether somebody says they're a socialist, which marx book is that in
Marx cares about class composition, but Gramsci* would say that Warren is not being helpful in the War of Position!

*famously translated by the Good Buttigieg
 

saenima

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,777
I kinda feel like you're describing people getting defensive about possible bad narratives here, especially given the way it played out - there wasn't a uniform "eh it's nothing *shrug*" kind of response, people got vicious. Are still a little vicious. The thing for me is, the more harmful narrative is "the left eats itself again!" which is... what all the back-and-forth produced.
Surely you can understand that people sometimes get frustrated over the same tired arguments from, quite frankly, some really bad actors. Sure, restraint often would be advisable, but we are human after all. We feel things. And then some people's lives actually depend on a general shift towards the left for mere survivability. Healthcare for all is not an abstract idea, it's an achievable, concrete goal.

When i see someone pining for the return of the status quo, my thought is not 'well that's better than nothing', my thought is 'well fuck that, the status quo is terrible and nothing to pine for'. I'm not American, but unfortunately for the rest of the world, the US has an immeasurable weight on where the world moves. And right now, the movement of which Sanders is emblematic is literally the only real chance at real positive change in the US, which ideally will have a positive ripple effect worldwide. A return to the status quo is just not nearly good enough. That's why people at times get defensive imo.

For example, and to use an extreme example, i do get quite mad when i see white privileged American people explaining to foreign people why meddling in their country's affairs, destroying their economy and bombing their land is actually a good thing. Sure, i could ignore it, and admittedly getting angry with people on the internet is nearly useless. But i would rather dismantle, or mock, a bad argument than ignore it. Ignoring things rarely makes them go away. Maybe someone else on the side lines sees how bad an argument is and it influences them to know more. That is better than nothing.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
there are no goalposts and we are not playing any fucked up sport here, but

Warren's campaign and Warren herself are now forwardly comfortable stoking these confrontations when it thinks it wins a petty victory and desperate to cling to unity with Sanders when it looks like it's going badly. That's the context. There's the ball through the goalposts, if that helps.
This is your original post:

Kinda weird how effectively both sides of the Warren camp's mouths run with both the eagerness to gravely imply Sanders's is ripe with liars, sexists, but also equal eagerness to "just leave it in the past bro we need to work together"

I guess it's just a shame to see utter desperation dressed up so cynically in thin trimmings of "we're allies!" but that was only ever going to get her campaign so far
Despite admitting their are numerous people involved on Warren's side there is no flexibility for multiple opinions inside Warren's camp, your argument is that everyone in Warren's camp are bad and can't be trusted and that there can't be more to Bernie and Warrens' relationship than that or that relationships can't change. You're omitting the fact Bernie and his camp haven't been passive observers during this debacle and that the trust they had with warren's camp might not be earned for them to get away with petty snipes like they intended. It shows how thin the trust between the two camps were and that's not all Warren's camp fault. They're reacting to Bernie and his camp's fuck ups, of course they're not going to brush off every slight Bernie and co. give them, and the fact Bernie's camp started all this. Bernie's script was the original domino that fell.

Warren only entered this confrontation when Bernie lied to the press about their discussion, she didn't just blurt it out once things got heated in the press.

No, we're not playing a sport - which is why I'm getting frustrated when you're brushing off legitimate complaints from Warren's camp.

"capitalist to my bones"
Only matters if being defined as a socialist matters above her reputation, which made her a friend and ally of Bernie and a second favourite among his followers.
 
Last edited:

Bramblebutt

Member
Jan 11, 2018
1,644
warren has also advocated for most of those things, especially the nationalization of healthcare and the establishment of worker co-ops, so what's the specific threshold that makes her not a socialist when she and sanders have the same position on the means of production
Warren is pretty widely against nationalization outside healthcare (and like most of the Democratic field is unwilling to fully commit to total public ownership of all major medical sectors) and her advocacy for workplace democracy falls short of workers seizing material ownership of corporations, instead advocating for minority corporate board representation adjudicated by a federal regulatory authority. Plus, you know, she's said she believes in the profit motive whereas Bernie has said the opposite.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Warren is pretty widely against nationalization outside healthcare (and like most of the Democratic field is unwilling to fully commit to total public ownership of all major medical sectors) and her advocacy for workplace democracy falls short of workers seizing material ownership of corporations, instead advocating for minority corporate board representation adjudicated by a federal regulatory authority. Plus, you know, she's said she believes in the profit motive whereas Bernie has said the opposite.
Has Bernie ever ran on this platform himself?
 

cnorwood

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,839
Looking at the shit Republicans do and I just have to laugh at the supposed Sanders v. Warren “controversies” from the past few days. Releasing talking points about why you’re a better candidate than your opponent is a scandal now?
Thank you, I'm so lost at the first page, you know each of these candidates are trying to win. Saying factually true non smear talking points is not a scandal its stating your case. This we need to hold hands and not disagree shit helps no one
 

plagiarize

To its ports I have been
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
10,649
Cape Cod, MA
Your post implies that he has bad hiring practices and credibility comparable to Trump. Which is unfair to say the least.

I'm saying that "less X" than Trump is a low bar to clear and sounds a lot like damning with faint praise. We need to do better like you said. I wouldn't describe some Democrats as less of a liberal than others so much as I would describe them as less conservative than someone in the GOP. That definitely applies to some candidates (though not Warren). That's more important than this. This issue is just a distraction that shouldn't push the needle from south of George Washington to just north of Trump in people's estimation of Bernie's credibility.

Bernie and Warren are both good candidates, I think. Both camps want to win, but I don't think that makes either less credible here. It seems just as plausible that both campaigns don't have complete control of their staff.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough it wouldn't be the first time. I'm saying our candidate needs to be as honest as possible, because they need to be credible. Not just compared to Trump, but credible period. It's not too late for any of the candidates to rise to that challenge. Any dishonesty is going to be treated equivalent to Trump by the media. So it's got to be stopped.

It wasn't meant to sound like I was disqualifying Bernie. Of the the top Dem candidates right now he's my number two choice.

It'd be a refreshing change to have a candidate who admits mistakes, and I don't believe it's a losing strategy. I think every candidate could do with learning that lesson.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,630
Pretty clear pattern of the first story out of the Bernie campaign usually being a lie and then needing to be walked back a few days later.
It couldnt be more obvious but gotta ignore that to scream about media bias.

Sexism and harassment in his campaign, endorsing scum, coming around so late on guns, Seems like he's apologizing every month and people wonder why he's scrutinized.
 

Bramblebutt

Member
Jan 11, 2018
1,644
Wait... So you can only be a true leftist if your a socialist? What the fuck?
You're free to disagree, the left/right spectrum is not comprehensive or widely respected even by those who choose to identify with it, but most people who choose to use it tend to put the socialists to the left of the social democrats.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,204
Warren is pretty widely against nationalization outside healthcare (and like most of the Democratic field is unwilling to fully commit to total public ownership of all major medical sectors) and her advocacy for workplace democracy falls short of workers seizing material ownership of corporations, instead advocating for minority corporate board representation adjudicated by a federal regulatory authority. Plus, you know, she's said she believes in the profit motive whereas Bernie has said the opposite.
I don't get why pigeon has been so insistent that she's a socialist. Supporting certain socialist policies (specifically ones that are proven popular) does not a socialist make. Her response here is, I think, a good illustration of how she's distinct. And people can hand wave all they'd like, but referring to herself as a capitalist and specifically saying she isn't a democratic socialist seems... fair? We don't need to convince ourselves that she's lying as if it's inconsistent.
 

Space Madness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
922
Maybe I wasn't clear enough it wouldn't be the first time. I'm saying our candidate needs to be as honest as possible, because they need to be credible. Not just compared to Trump, but credible period. It's not too late for any of the candidates to rise to that challenge. Any dishonesty is going to be treated equivalent to Trump by the media. So it's got to be stopped.

It wasn't meant to sound like I was disqualifying Bernie. Of the the top Dem candidates right now he's my number two choice.

It'd be a refreshing change to have a candidate who admits mistakes, and I don't believe it's a losing strategy. I think every candidate could do with learning that lesson.
I was confused then. I'm sorry. You're right and I wholeheartedly agree. The ability to admit mistakes is highly underrated right now.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,735
What is exclusive is that one will win and the other will lose, and this fraying at the ends of Warren's relationship to the Sanders campaign is indicative of the fact that she and the people around her know which of those ways things are going for her

In retrospect, not surprising; but def embarrassing
"Calling out my guy's campaign for repeatedly lying? How desperate of you."

Thank you, I'm so lost at the first page, you know each of these candidates are trying to win. Saying factually true non smear talking points is not a scandal its stating your case. This we need to hold hands and not disagree shit helps no one
You don't get in trouble for sticking your hand in the cookie jar. You get in trouble for saying you didn't when you did.

Sanders has a reputation to sell as an "outsider", so getting caught being a politician (which he has been for over three decades) is bad for the brand. So instead of just saying "yeah, that's ours, was any of it untrue", his campaign dissembles about everything that can be construed as actually campaigning then points their finger at everyone else. From there, certain supporters, instead of just saying "well, it's politics, he's a politician," pick up the flag and carry that message until, oops, turns out they were actually doing it. At which point those same supporters, instead of feeling insulted for being made to carry a false banner, suddenly play it off as being no big deal. When, previously, it was such a problem that the mere insinuation of the campaign doing it was tantamount to sabotage.
 
Last edited:

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,342
It'd sure be nice if my preferred candidates would stop fucking up.
 

Bramblebutt

Member
Jan 11, 2018
1,644
I don't get why pigeon has been so insistent that she's a socialist. Supporting certain socialist policies (specifically ones that are proven popular) does not a socialist make. Her response here is, I think, a good illustration of how she's distinct. And people can hand wave all they'd like, but referring to herself as a capitalist and specifically saying she isn't a democratic socialist seems... fair? We don't need to convince ourselves that she's lying as if it's inconsistent.
No, he has a point. Whatever politicians call themselves does not on its own determine their politics, and Bernie isn't going to be winning any purity tests from died in the wool Orthodox Marxists. What we call "socialist" in America in this day and age is slippery and hard to nail down, and the line we draw between Bernie's policy proposals and Warren's does not imply the point where a "capitalist" ends and a "socialist" begins in anything but the intuitive sense that self-described "socialists" tend to line up more with one over the other. As others have pointed out above, the stuff he's proposed isn't exactly a revolution of the proletariat, and we can't really speculate if he views these policies as ends within themselves or an increment towards something more radically different than what we have now.

However, I do think there is a meaningful difference between the two candidates in their rhetoric, espoused worldview, and praxis which demonstrates that Bernie is skeptical of the fundamental role of capital accumulation in society to a degree that Warren is not. That might not make him a socialist in a rigorous sense, but he certainly skews further that way than Warren in my eyes.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
6,204
turns out they were actually doing it
Looking at what has actually been said over the last few days, what has actually changed? The campaign position was that the document was real, had been used by staffers, but was unapproved (ie, Bernie and people close to him were not aware). No one has said otherwise, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Bernie's live response "And people sometimes say things that they shouldn’t" never really made sense from the beginning, of course, since this was always about a document that had leaked. Was as if he didn't understand what had actually happened and/or ultimately didn't want to be bothered with it.

No, he has a point. Whatever politicians call themselves does not on its own determine their politics, and Bernie isn't going to be winning any purity tests from died in the wool Orthodox Marxists. What we call "socialist" in America in this day and age is slippery and hard to nail down, and the line we draw between Bernie's policy proposals and Warren's does not imply the point where a "capitalist" ends and a "socialist" begins in anything but the intuitive sense that self-described "socialists" tend to line up more with one over the other.

However, I do think there is a meaningful difference between the two in their rhetoric, espoused worldview, and praxis which demonstrates that Bernie is skeptical of the fundamental role of capital accumulation in society to a degree that Warren is not. That might not make him a socialist in a rigorous sense, but he certainly skews further that way than Warren in my eyes.
Sorry, not sure what you're saying 'No' to w/r/t my post. I don't disagree that people self-identifying is insufficient -- just pointing out that it seems fair given where she actually falls with her policies.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,281
Looking at what has actually been said over the last few days, what has actually changed? The campaign position was that the document was real, had been used by staffers, but was unapproved (ie, Bernie and people close to him were not aware). No one has said otherwise, but correct me if I'm wrong.
It was sent to multiple states which means someone with decision making power in his national campaign. He and his campaign are lying.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,204
It was sent to multiple states which means someone with decision making power in his national campaign. He and his campaign are lying.
Yeah I don't know what "unapproved" means for their organizational structure and who would be finalizing/disseminating these sorts of notes going out, but the suggestion is that Sanders and at least his high level staff didn't authorize it. Seems perfectly plausible to me and the alternative is that they all endorsed an initiative to begin criticizing Warren, which would contravene a core principle of their campaign and inevitably blow back. At a minimum, as I said before, it's sloppy and they should tighten up if they're going to hold themselves to high standards. Missteps won't go unexploited.