Because too many people still don't know the difference between trans people and non binary gender identity.
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[Poll] When do you foresee gender norms becoming a thing of the past?
- Thread starter brainchild
- Start date
Never.
Men and women are just too different.
I don't think we'll ever come close to reaching a point where gender norms won't have hugely significant influence in society.
Men and women are just too different.
I don't think we'll ever come close to reaching a point where gender norms won't have hugely significant influence in society.
Science has shown that there's a biological basis for some gender norms, so probably never.
https://news.nationalgeographic.com...lay-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/
https://news.nationalgeographic.com...lay-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/
OP
OP
Question for you...
Assuming that gender norms will become practically non-existent at some point in the future, how do you think the transgender community would be affected by this? I imagine some people will still identify as trans due to gender dysphoria (assuming by that point we still haven't evolved science to somehow ensure that that all future humans will feel like they're born in the right body), but do you think it would affect how people identify with their own gender?
This is very true.
Never.
Or in a future far enough away that humanity might not even exist anymore.
Pretty much every culture ever has very naturally assigned SOME kind of "norm" for gender expression. One could probably assume that this behavior was likely responsible for our survival as a species in the early years of humanity. It may be an unneeded feature of our programming in current times, but it's too deeply integrated into our species worldwide to just become "ACCEPTED" as completely normal.
This is something that i can only see happening in a decidedly Science Fiction universe, where humanity has, like, ALL of its cultures thrown together and forced to co-habituate together for some reason. Like an extraterrestrial colony.
Having it be AVAILABLE isn't a problem, hell it's already fully available in pretty much every 1st world country on earth.
Just look at Young Thug!
Having it be "normal" is a different issue entirely though, the only way for it to be "normal" is for it to be common.
trans and agender people are not common. We have deliberately and somewhat forcibly developed a social awareness so that people react in a way that makes it feel normal and common.
but for that to happen naturally, without any kind of movement or deliberate awareness, would require something much bigger to happen.
OP
OP
We cannot look at data like this in a vacuum. Socialization plays a huge factor into the results that we see here. Technically, socialization has a basis in biology as well, but that doesn't mean that it cannot change, or cease to exist.
Oh I don't think it would happen naturally at all. I could only see it happening through very deliberate means. That doesn't however mean that it will never happen.
If you're not going to bother reading those studies, why comment on them? They address socialization. How does socialization work with primates and toy preferences. It's pretty obvious your approaching this topic from a bad faith perspective when you're so flippantly dismissing legitimate science that strongly shows biology forms at least some gender norms.
I feel like the only way it could ever meaningfully happen is IF it happened naturally, emergently.
This is why I love Sci-Fi so much. Its one of the only genres that are able to show the possibilities of a fully matured humanity...or at least a far more matured humanity.
In the real world though, rigid gender identity is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too deeply integrated into too many completely different cultures for it to ever become normal to be otherwise
OP
OP
First, I would never make a thread like this without due diligence in making sure I'm up to speed on what the current body of evidence from the scientific community, specifically peer reviewed studies, has to say on the matter. I had already read about the specific studies in question prior to making this thread.
That you immediately jumped to the conclusion that I had not learned or known about the studies just because my response was not what you expected is a gross assumption on your part, and most certainly done in bad faith, as you did not even bother to ask me if I had known about the studies before assuming that I hadn't.
I never said that the studies didn't mention the issue of socialization. My point was that it's a factor that must be considered with the evidence. So to be clear, YES, there is evidence to suggest gender norms have some basis in biology, but part of that process is through socialization, as the evidence has clearly indicated. I'm in full agreement with you here, but just wanted to give more context and perspective.
If you thought I was being dismissive, you simply misunderstood the intent of my post.
I dunno Gen-z's are pretty liberal compared to Millenials. Like, Millenials pretend to see women as equal, Gen-z's actually do.
Gender norms may not go fully away but it western society they'll probbaly dissapear by a lot (not fully dissapear but mostly) in the next 50-100 years.
You all have shitty imaginations of what the future could look like if you honest to god think it'll never happen. The more technology advances the less phsycial differences and characteristics matter in life.
Gender norms may not go fully away but it western society they'll probbaly dissapear by a lot (not fully dissapear but mostly) in the next 50-100 years.
You all have shitty imaginations of what the future could look like if you honest to god think it'll never happen. The more technology advances the less phsycial differences and characteristics matter in life.
I didn't misunderstand anything. You didn't acknowledge the findings in those studies and simply dismissed them as "you can't look at things in a vacuum" which those studies very explicitly didn't do which leads me to believe you didn't read them. Also "part of that process is through socialization" is needlessly vague. What process are you referring to. Be specific. How do you reconcile the fact that hormones/biology dictate certain preferences between the sexes outside the influence of culture and socialization with your hypothesis that it's possible to completely remove the connection between hormones and behavior at the genetic level?
What you're proposing would require nothing short of genetic manipulation.
OP
OP
The bolded is really important to take into consideration, I feel. It's hard to draw parallels of gender norms with whatever its future equivalent would be when so much of our lives will be affected by artificial means like technology that has the power to virtually change reality itself. This is not something that has ever been accomplished before in human history, so relying on our history of biology and sociology is going to be extremely limited in giving is insight into the future when it comes to matters like these.
Depends on the norm in question.
Fashion norm? Absolutely. It'll change decade to decade.
With regards to gender identity, never -- not without biological interference. I just don't see things moving past mostly binary, but I do see those on the fringe being given a bigger voice. Which leads me to...
But we have and will continue to feel more comfortable as a whole, with allowing people to express themselves however they feel.
Fashion norm? Absolutely. It'll change decade to decade.
With regards to gender identity, never -- not without biological interference. I just don't see things moving past mostly binary, but I do see those on the fringe being given a bigger voice. Which leads me to...
But we have and will continue to feel more comfortable as a whole, with allowing people to express themselves however they feel.
For this to happen, at least two major changes would have to occur in the majority of the human population: 1) secondary sex characteristic lose prominence naturally or by widespread genetic engineering, and 2) sexual attractions ruled by genes and hormones no longer favor these characteristics.
This isn't outside the realm of possibility but I'd be blown over if it happened this century and still pretty surprised if it did at any point in the next. We're talking about a truly radical shift for a species whose genetic lineage contains hundreds of thousands of years of binarism.
Mainstream acceptance of nonbinary people could be achieved in a matter of decades though, unless everything goes wrong socially and politically.
This isn't outside the realm of possibility but I'd be blown over if it happened this century and still pretty surprised if it did at any point in the next. We're talking about a truly radical shift for a species whose genetic lineage contains hundreds of thousands of years of binarism.
Mainstream acceptance of nonbinary people could be achieved in a matter of decades though, unless everything goes wrong socially and politically.
OP
OP
Now you're just talking past me without regard for what I'm saying at all, despite me being in vigorous agreement with you on what the science says. It's like you're trying to argue with me for no reason.
I didn't accuse the researchers of looking at the data in a vacuum, I'm saying that there's more to what the studies said than what you were saying in that initial post. I said that so that people didn't take what you said in a vacuum without contextualizing it in accordance to what was reported in the studies, not to altogether dismiss the claim as false.
As for the process of socialization I'm referring to
The study tells us that while these preferences can develop without the explicit socialization of gender roles, hormonal differences between sexes can influence the toy preferences of these monkeys through socialization.
There is no dismissing of facts here. I fully acknowledge the veracity of the study and maintain that it's important for anyone looking at this data to understand that there are many factors at work here (the scientists already understand that, so I'm not talking about them).
It's been a long ass time and people still have trouble seeing folks of color as human. Gender issues are a long way off, sadly.
OP
OP
Dresses and skirts have served all sorts of purposes (functionally and aesthetically) throughout human history for both men and women. Men's aversion to wearing dresses in western culture now is but a snapshot in time, but if we look back, we can definitely see that it was not always the case.
When a dude can show up on the first day of public school in lipstick and high heels and not get shit from anyone.
So probably never. We'll get better, but we'll never be past it.
So probably never. We'll get better, but we'll never be past it.
I'm actually not very pessimistic about this at all. A thing of the past globally? Might take a while, depending on how social activism and politics turn out. Not a detrimental factor to people in highly educated cities in case feminists get closer to mainstream political power here in Sweden, for example? Maybe in as little as 20 years. We've only recently began discussing these concepts within mainstream society (aka people who aren't part of minorities) and there's already a shocking amount of acceptance and people getting it, because why wouldn't they? More options and freedom for everyone is what the majority of people want and welcome with open arms as long as it isn't harmful to society as a whole. I don't ever meet people who consider themselves genuinely socialist who give a shit about maintaining gender norms around where I live.
Toxic masculinity was barely talked about 10 years ago and now pretty much every man I speak to just goes "oh yeah, that makes sense and I can relate to it" whenever I explain what it actually is. Remember that what you see online is just unfiltered hate from insane dumbasses because those create controversy and debate. Most people genuinely don't give a fuck about how others want to live their lives, and why would they?
...
Women have different body shapes...
Also considering how shit the majority of men dress I doubt that's the issue bothering people. Most men can't even buy/adjust a properly fitted dress shirt.
Toxic masculinity was barely talked about 10 years ago and now pretty much every man I speak to just goes "oh yeah, that makes sense and I can relate to it" whenever I explain what it actually is. Remember that what you see online is just unfiltered hate from insane dumbasses because those create controversy and debate. Most people genuinely don't give a fuck about how others want to live their lives, and why would they?
...
Women have different body shapes...
Also considering how shit the majority of men dress I doubt that's the issue bothering people. Most men can't even buy/adjust a properly fitted dress shirt.
The acceptance of this 100 year ago compared to today is INSANELY different so I think more 100~200 years can do it since advancements in socia norms took a boost in the last years
Most dresses are made to fit the super tall, flat and thin supermodel bodies =P
Most dresses are made to fit the super tall, flat and thin supermodel bodies =P
While im aware of the difference, for the majority it runs along the same line, therefore due to the majority of people not needing to differentiate I don't think they will for ages.
I think everyone being conscious of a smaller groups need to be fluid or ambiguous or whatever I'm supposed to call it and having that all be open in OK in first world countries is a reasonable expectation for the next 50 years
In what ways are men and women different that aren't primarily a result of social norms, according to you?
OP
OP
When does Star Trek take place again?
/startrek_manskirt-56e5c5893df78c5ba0573924.png)
This was actually what I was referring to when I said that the show disappointed me when it came to socially progressive issues. Obviously it's great that we see men wearing the skants as well, but only in the background of the scenes, and never with the main male characters, despite female main characters wearing them. Clearly the producers were concerned about demographics. So it was pretty radically progressive from a worldbuilding perspective, but narrative-wise, it still fell short on that front.
Anyway, TNG took place around the year 2,364 and beyond. So...300 years from now guys will be wearing dresses again in western culture? Hmm, it's possible. The advancement in their tech are probably like a 1000+ years away from where we is today though.
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500 years would be around five generations.
So I could see some changes happening in that time. Either for good or bad, but if it's for good... Then I presume that everyone would be more comfortable wearing different kids of clothes and more women would be in places of power. The concept of "femininity" wouldn't be a bad thing.
So I could see some changes happening in that time. Either for good or bad, but if it's for good... Then I presume that everyone would be more comfortable wearing different kids of clothes and more women would be in places of power. The concept of "femininity" wouldn't be a bad thing.
Yeah that were all background, and they were only worn in the first few episodes and then the producers or the network chickened out.
OP
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I really want a show to go all the way and give us a world and story that fully embraces complete equality between sexes and gender variance. I know it would be risky, but I still want it!
I would go ever further and say that the acceptance of trans people guarantees that gender norms will never go away, as it shows that inherent gender characteristics are so ingrained that even people that are raised as and outwardly appear to be one gender cannot resist identifying as their actual gender as determined, presumably, by their brain.
OP
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Well this sounds more like a distinction of gender, period, which will presumably always be present as long as there is differentiation between sex (though again there may not always be differentiation between sex).
However, I don't think that acceptance of transgender people necessarily precludes the integration of fluid gender expression for all people as long as society systematically enforces that people are free to express their gender however they see fit. If this level of gender variance becomes so great that the lines between the social expectations of different genders become truly blurred, then whatever behavioral/aesthetic predispositions inherent to specific genders would be pretty difficult to distinguish from one another in such a society, rendering the concept of 'gender norms' antiquated, unless we then interpret gender norms to be 'all genders exhibiting an incalculable variation of preferential characteristics', which doesn't have a whole lot of utility as far as differentiation is concerned.
They will probably always be gender norms, they'll just be different than they are now. Gender norms have changed over time, and they'll continue to change as we change ourselves and our environments. The gender norms of our ancestors on the savanna will not be the gender norms of our genetically modified space descendants.
I would imagine that every producer of a multimillion dollar show on a major network would care about demographics.
I don't think you'll ever get rid of them entirely. They'll hopefully continue to soften over time, but culture is near impossible to stamp out. And over the huge timeline it would take to actually significantly change them, new norms would inevitably arise that would put you right back where you started.
OP
OP
I mean, this totally makes sense logically, I just don't think it will hold the same significance in the distant future. In fact, I think it will be so insignificant in terms of its effects on society that it will probably only be a subject discussed in academia.
If the norms for male and female reach the point where there is literally no difference between them in culture, fashion, and behavior, you might as well call them 'human gender norms'.
I don't think "gender norms", if by this, you mean a certain way of being that could be stereotyped as belonging to a certain gender, is the problem.
The problem - as I see it - is that girly shit is still seen as lesser, and that our discomfort around that tends to lead into talks about how we can eliminate gendered differences.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying - consciously or otherwise - gendered expressions. What is an actual problem, is that one kind of gendered expression is - and has perhaps always has been - treated as less than.
I can't help but feel like the lust for a future without gendered behavior is also, "low-key" a wish to be free from the complexity and messiness that will happen if more citizens felt more free in their expression; whatever form that would take.
In this regard, the future should be more messy; not less.
The problem - as I see it - is that girly shit is still seen as lesser, and that our discomfort around that tends to lead into talks about how we can eliminate gendered differences.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying - consciously or otherwise - gendered expressions. What is an actual problem, is that one kind of gendered expression is - and has perhaps always has been - treated as less than.
I can't help but feel like the lust for a future without gendered behavior is also, "low-key" a wish to be free from the complexity and messiness that will happen if more citizens felt more free in their expression; whatever form that would take.
In this regard, the future should be more messy; not less.
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It really depends on where humans go. Maybe we'll have split societies of "naturals" who refuse any sort of genetic interference and praise gender norms living next to groups of transhuman agender dolphins. In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say the democratization of information and publication, and the continuing microfracture of culture will lead to a balkanized human race, where you'll get six different answers for "what is a human?" much less, "what is a man."
OP
OP
If you go back to the OP you'll see that I'm promoting more gender diversity, not less. The issue is the rigidity in the expression of one's gender, not that genders shouldn't differ from one another. However, if the expressions of these different genders becomes more fluid, it is possible that the outward expression of different genders and the norms associated with them will become less differentiated over time, which is fine, so long as these different genders are able to continue to express themselves fluidly.
Really great points. It does seem that transhumanism will play a very significant role in the intersectionality of gender norms. It could go in many different directions.
I think, however, the transhuman group is more likely to be gender non-conformant than strictly agender, as a new wave of individuation would probably arise from transhumanism and would likely usher in an entirely new paradigm of gender identity and gender expression, where pinning it down to sex identity wouldn't make much sense.
I'd say if you projected the direction of civilization over the last few hundreds of years into the future, almost everyone today would be shocked to see 500+ years from now.
To us, I believe, it would seem almost all societal gender norms are 'flatted'. If you lived in that society you'd still see them, but they wouldn't be disruptive on any kind of regular basis as they have been historically.
I'm not certain society will continue to progress as it has for hundreds of years, we may be due for a cycling, but it's quite possible that things will continue to progress.
To us, I believe, it would seem almost all societal gender norms are 'flatted'. If you lived in that society you'd still see them, but they wouldn't be disruptive on any kind of regular basis as they have been historically.
I'm not certain society will continue to progress as it has for hundreds of years, we may be due for a cycling, but it's quite possible that things will continue to progress.
But there are societies where a lot of the norms are flipped
So
Anyway I was optimistic and said 100